D'antoni Offensive Philosophy Researched/The Problem With Carmelo And Amar

Good detailed post.

Now, in reading all the information you included, there are certainly spacing issues on offense.

What confuses me is how a random KOL poster can see this with great clarity but the coach of a pro basketball team doesn't. Actually, I don't know that he doesn't realize it but certainly if you're known as an "offensive genius" shouldn't you be able to remedy this a bit?

The term "offensive genius" implies that you can create offense out of any situation.

I'll go a slightly different route and say a huge problem on offense is Amare's inability to post up. We start games with 4 shooters, so at no point can we establish something in the paint to open up the perimeter a bit. A Healthy balance of low post, mid range and long range shots would go a long way.

I don't believe Antoni requires or needs a post up player with the way he wants to play, but based on the TYPE of players he has, it would make a big difference. The reason why most of Lin's passes are successful to TC is because where he's positioned (near the basket). On the other hand, Amare stays out on the perimeter and therefore its not as simple to get him easy high % shots.

IMO these can be corrected but it will take the players to trust in it. At this point though, its pretty broken.

I appreciate the poster breaking things down like that but #1 this isn't PHX and #2 he doesn't have the ability to make this team work.

chupchup said:

Agreed. Spacing and Shooting in the age of zone defenses is what is needed. This is why they're losing to the 2nd unit.

Everyone clogs the lane with no one that can consistently hit a three pointer or outside shot to stretch the floor.

Also Amare's still out of shape. Losing 10 lbs in 10 days and wanting to lose 5 more pounds? So he was 15 lbs overweight in the first half.

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STAT wasnt out of shape. He purposely put on pounds to get stronger. It was good weight...

iSaYughh said:

Sad.

Stop tainting some of the recently rare high-powered, quality, well-researched threads on here w/ these lame ass, played out D'antoni obsessions.

There are plenty of pastures on here to spread this type of uninspired shit.

Ah ya, read the thread too.

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Read the thread...all of it, yes it was very we'll written, but no ****ing way would I trade a whole team of very good players for 1 dumb ass coach who hasn't even won shit. Not trying to start an argument just staying what I believe.

this type of analysis bears no merit its like those "scholars" who analyze Jeters defense and ranked him worst SS fielder in league. come on this is not how the game is played using stats and comparisons

Clyde & The Pearl said:

STAT wasnt out of shape. He purposely put on pounds to get stronger. It was good weight...

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I think that's just a PR spin on their part. He said it himself that he didn't pick up a basketball for the entire lockout (ie 6 months).

Good weight is when you gain strength & lbs and still maintain your explosiveness. We all can tell he's much more explosive these past two games versus the 1st half of the season.

chupchup said:

Agreed. Spacing and Shooting in the age of zone defenses is what is needed. This is why they're losing to the 2nd unit.

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OriginalKnickGrandson said:

Read the thread...all of it, yes it was very we'll written, but no ****ing way would I trade a whole team of very good players for 1 dumb ass coach who hasn't even won shit. Not trying to start an argument just staying what I believe.

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Two things i noticed about the Nash highlight reel- Nash plays with supreme confidence in his dribble- something that Lin started off doing but has lost in the last few games.. I think maybe all the scrutiny over his turnovers caused him to overhaul his game and not for the better

Amare was just way more athletic and had a lot of faith in his pull up mid range game (Yes i know he has less room to work with this year because of our lack of quality 3 point shooting, but still he misses wide open 15 footers badly all the time)

FireCoachD said:

Two things i noticed about the Nash highlight reel- Nash plays with supreme confidence in his dribble- something that Lin started off doing but has lost in the last few games.. I think maybe all the scrutiny over his turnovers caused him to overhaul his game and not for the better

Amare was just way more athletic and had a lot of faith in his pull up mid range game (Yes i know he has less room to work with this year because of our lack of quality 3 point shooting, but still he misses wide open 15 footers badly all the time)

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Maybe its LIN feeling intimidated by Melo.......I think as CLYDE said it best in another thread LIN should go back to playing the way he did.....and YES if that means more shots then Melo and Stat so be it......We were winning without them........Let Melo and Stat find shots through offensive rebounds,,,,,

nyk_nyk said:

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Wow, really? Very grown up. Nothing to add just a lame picture. Guess your one to change the whole team and not their clueless leader huh?

OriginalKnickGrandson said:

Wow, really? Very grown up. Nothing to add just a lame picture. Guess your one to change the whole team and not their clueless leader huh?

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I think you missed his point. I'm sure nyk_nyk is on board with not catering to MDA's need to build the Phoenix Suns East.

It's still a very well written thread tho. My only question is, can we realistically implement STAT in an offense where he's in the post, and everything would theoretically work off of him in the half court?

I dunno if he's that guy. I'm not hating on the man, but he's been under MDA's tutelage for what...7-8 years? He is who he is, it's unfair to everyone...him included, to expect him to play a certain way and utilize a skill set that he doesn't really have.

nuckles2k2 said:

I think you missed his point. I'm sure nyk_nyk is on board with not catering to MDA's need to build the Phoenix Suns East.

It's still a very well written thread tho. My only question is, can we realistically implement STAT in an offense where he's in the post, and everything would theoretically work off of him in the half court?

I dunno if he's that guy. I'm not hating on the man, but he's been under MDA's tutelage for what...7-8 years? He is who he is, it's unfair to everyone...him included, to expect him to play a certain way and utilize a skill set that he doesn't really have.

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The answer to your question is "no".
Amare isn't and never will be a back to the basket post player. We are built to be a running team except for a handful of player (ie Mello, Novak and maybe Harilson) . Question is can Dumbtoni get the best out of his players skill sets and again the answer is "no". Proven in the desert years ago it takes defense and a good halfcourt offense to win the big games where each possession counts, not some gimmick Speedball approach to the game.

I think one positive, uncomplicated move that could be installed would simply to encourage more 2-man play between Lin and Melo.

This could be with either the pick/n/roll or give/go. Melo wouldn't be able to set as strong picks as Stat or Chandler, but he'd also be much better receiving the ball and making quick moves. Even a give-go would loosen things up. Now, all I notice is Lin feeding Melo at the post and then giving him room to iso, which allows the defense to get set.

Clyde & The Pearl said:

^^^^I really dont understand this obsession with his system. It's worked for one team. It's not like he won a ring with it. A good coach would scrap his so called "SYSTEM" to coach the talents of the team he currently has. Pat Riley did it...

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Post trade last season and the first two months of this season the "system" was not being used, AT ALL. It wasn't until Lin arrived that the system was actually being implemented. Even when Billups was here, it wasn't D'Antoni's system being run. It was a hybrid, almost triangle system. Which gave us a .500 record.

Pat Riley didn't scrap his system. Riley has always been about bump & run defense, rebounding, team defense, brutal practices and mental toughness. That's been his modus operandi from day one, never changed.

I don't know of many coaches that change their system. Not any great ones I can think of.


*Edit: I keep seeing people making the claim that a good coach "gets the best out of his players skill sets". What does that really mean? For Melo, isn't that essentially iso-Melo? He doesn't work well off the ball and doesn't understand spacing in the slightest. To maximise Melo's skills we would need to go back to iso-Melo. With the compliment of players on the roster, we've seen how terrible that works.

This Post Thread need Real Talk....

nuckles2k2 said:

I think you missed his point. I'm sure nyk_nyk is on board with not catering to MDA's need to build the Phoenix Suns East.

It's still a very well written thread tho. My only question is, can we realistically implement STAT in an offense where he's in the post, and everything would theoretically work off of him in the half court?

I dunno if he's that guy. I'm not hating on the man, but he's been under MDA's tutelage for what...7-8 years? He is who he is, it's unfair to everyone...him included, to expect him to play a certain way and utilize a skill set that he doesn't really have.

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Real Talk....
After watching 39 Knicks games, plus last season playoffs....I dont see Stat or Melo putting up any effort to WIN for coach Dantoni.
The weekend Dantoni Job was in jeopardy of being FIRED, Stat was out with a family situation however, Melo just happen to pull his groin in the first quarter vs the Deron Williams Nets, with the Knicks next game being against the Utah Jazz.
It is very hard to convince a real basketball player who happen to be a die hard Knicks fan that $200M Stat & Melo performance has not given up on getting personal-conflict Dantoni FIRED.
Did Shawn Marion try to unite with Dantoni in NY? who do u think is closer to Stat? Marion or Dantoni?

Dantoni philosophy means zilch to two superstar players who have the POWER to make their teammates screen, pick, or block any oponent out of their way so they dont have to make one ISO play while double or tripple team in a game.

LJ4ptplay said:

Post trade last season and the first two months of this season the "system" was not being used, AT ALL. It wasn't until Lin arrived that the system was actually being implemented. Even when Billups was here, it wasn't D'Antoni's system being run. It was a hybrid, almost triangle system. Which gave us a .500 record.

Pat Riley didn't scrap his system. Riley has always been about bump & run defense, rebounding, team defense, brutal practices and mental toughness. That's been his modus operandi from day one, never changed.

I don't know of many coaches that change their system. Not any great ones I can think of.


*Edit: I keep seeing people making the claim that a good coach "gets the best out of his players skill sets". What does that really mean? For Melo, isn't that essentially iso-Melo? He doesn't work well off the ball and doesn't understand spacing in the slightest. To maximise Melo's skills we would need to go back to iso-Melo. With the compliment of players on the roster, we've seen how terrible that works.

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Riley had purely a "FINESSE TEAM" in L A. Jabbar wasnt a physical player. Neither was Worthy, Magic, Cooper et all. Maybe Rambis. They ran the ball and worked off Jabber.

With NY and Ewing, Oakley he coached one one the most physical teams in NBA history that slowed the game down and played primarily half court sets. He didnt try to bring "Showtime" with him east. He adjusted to what he had...

nuckles2k2 said:

I think you missed his point. I'm sure nyk_nyk is on board with not catering to MDA's need to build the Phoenix Suns East.

It's still a very well written thread tho. My only question is, can we realistically implement STAT in an offense where he's in the post, and everything would theoretically work off of him in the half court?

I dunno if he's that guy. I'm not hating on the man, but he's been under MDA's tutelage for what...7-8 years? He is who he is, it's unfair to everyone...him included, to expect him to play a certain way and utilize a skill set that he doesn't really have.

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So nuckles, you complained about no one answering your suggestion, but when I question it you seem to ignore my post. What gives?

LJ4ptplay said:

Post trade last season and the first two months of this season the "system" was not being used, AT ALL. It wasn't until Lin arrived that the system was actually being implemented. Even when Billups was here, it wasn't D'Antoni's system being run. It was a hybrid, almost triangle system. Which gave us a .500 record.

Pat Riley didn't scrap his system. Riley has always been about bump & run defense, rebounding, team defense, brutal practices and mental toughness. That's been his modus operandi from day one, never changed.

I don't know of many coaches that change their system. Not any great ones I can think of.


*Edit: I keep seeing people making the claim that a good coach "gets the best out of his players skill sets". What does that really mean? For Melo, isn't that essentially iso-Melo? He doesn't work well off the ball and doesn't understand spacing in the slightest. To maximise Melo's skills we would need to go back to iso-Melo. With the compliment of players on the roster, we've seen how terrible that works.

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To get the best out of Mello he needs to have shooters on the outside to spread the floor and rebounding/finishing bigman under the basket. Contrary to popular belief Mello is a very good passer and I'm sure winning is very important to him (as it is to all superstars) to put him above the rest of his peers. I'm not sure why you say he dissent know how to space the floor or move without the ball? Seems at one time he did just fine getting of easy shots set up by Chauncey and also found J.R. Smith and others sitting outside in Denver.

Clyde & The Pearl said:

So nuckles, you complained about no one answering your suggestion, but when I question it you seem to ignore my post. What gives?

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Clyde & The Pearl said:

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that you'd trade STAT for a lessor talent because he doesnt fit MDA's offense?

Guys. MDAs system could be a world beater. The best ever invented, but talent wins in this league. There are no two ways about it.

I remember wishing Ewing had just "ONE MORE GUY". He didnt, and you all know how that turned out.

Seriously. Wouldnt it be better to create a "system" the accentuates these players talents?

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Honestly didn't even see this, had to go back and read it, honest mistake.

It would absolutely be better to build a team that accentuates the current roster's talent, that's actually the more realistic option over moving STAT.

My thing is, STAT has no consistent post game to speak of, and he's not a stretch 4. He's kind of in limbo between being a low post 4, and a stretch 4.

I don't know how well that will work out in year 5 of his deal at $23M with no amnesty. His game is predicated on the PnR and crashing to the rim, more so than the pick and pop, or setting a strong pick, rolling, and then sealing his man off and getting the ball. If he did that last one, that would open it up for everyone else in the half court, but it's not a part of his game.

I don't know for a fact that he would have more success in an offense where it's essentially centered around him in the low block with his man sealed off. He doesn't have the footwork, his touch around the rim is very suspect.

He's been groomed to be the athletic freak in an uptempo, spaced out, offense.

So my trading him for "lesser" talent wouldn't be for MDA, but just to build a better all around team going forward.

Now if STAT suddenly shows the ability to operate down low, with a set defense, and look comfortable and shows he's a legit threat down there. I'll have no problem with a 32-33 year old Amar'e @ $23M.