D'antoni Offensive Philosophy Researched/The Problem With Carmelo And Amar

Well after doing something a lot of us don't want to do which is doing research on our coach, i have found that he has drastically changed his offense into something that is not what he has done in the past and he really is trying to create a new found mold of his old system to fit the players that are on our team. So now he has to almost create an offense from the ground up to adjust to Melo and Stat but the problem is not the plays but the lack of spacing and room for our 2 stars to operate.

I have looked up Steve Nash Pick And Roll tape and found that it seems so easy for him to make passes out of reading the defense off of the roll. In Phoenix the Suns had a plethora of sharpshooters and stretch 5's and 4's who were matched up against traditional big men. Amar'e and Nash's Pick And Roll was basically a game of 2 on 2 and each player had to quickly analyze the situation which either meant an over commit on Nash or Stoudemire which led to either a jumper or drive for Nash or a dunk or jumper for Amar'e.

With Tyson Chandler, Carmelo, Fields, Shumpert and Jeffries as our unit, we are nothing like Phoenix in terms of spacing and shooting. It also helped that Amar'e could go 1-1 with almost every center and dominate them since the more athletic big men had to stay on the stretch 4 which was Shawn Marion or Diaw.

With our unit Amar'e has no space for cuts to the basket and cant attack the basket without 3 jersey's their every time. He cannot create his own offense without a clear lane to the basket because as a Face Up Big man you need to either shoot or drive. Well now big men play aggressive on Amar'e knowing their is plenty help behind them and he has few opportunities for easy looks at the basket. Now this eliminates Amar'e driving lanes and he rarely see's opportunities to attack the basket and now forces his shots.

Our unit cannot run the Pick And Roll unless it is with Tyson Chandler since If they help we have decent shooters but most of all Amar'e will knock down the midrange jumper 7/10 times. But when Amar'e rolls to the basket the other big can basically forget about Tyson Chandler and drop down to clog the cutting lane and help on the cutting Amar'e.

Look at Phoenix and look at how much space on the floor Nash and Co. got to work with and the consequences of helping on the Pick And Roll:



The defense was basically at the mercy of Phoenix offense since you would get burned for helping by the 3 ball or if you stopped the roll to the basket than Amar'e would stop and pop from mid range for an easy jumper or you would leave the greatest shooter ever wide open or a lane to the basket.

Look at how easy it is for Amar'e to score in Phoenix, he was Unguardable and in Rhythm & on the move all the time, all he was doing was cutting, running, and popping jumpers-not far from what he does now, just that now he gets none of the looks he gets in this video:



D'antoni success relies on spacing and shooting and this team can't provide neither which leads to our stars trying to create out of nothing most of the time. The first half of the Boston game showed that if we run we will get trailing players easy open shots or Alley's for the runners as this is the only time we can space the floor since the defense is not set and must make quick decisions.

Amar'e is being forced to play a way he has never played before which is creating from Difficult situations. Amar'e summed up is a excellent finisher and good jump shooter, nothing more nothing less, and if we cannot get him in his sweet spots or in better situations to score then no matter how long it takes or how much time we have to "Gel" he will never succeed.

D'antoni explaining his Pick And Roll philosophy:



As he explained in the video, we need shooters to space the floor to give our PG options from the Pick. Well with our group it is either you find the cutting big man or nothing. In the video he says that Felton had the options of finding Gallo, Chandler, or fields for a 3 if the defense helped or take his own shot or find a cutting STAT for a dunk. Now with our squad you can take about 3 of those options out of the equation and its either Lin driving or shooting or maybe Chandler finishes at the rim or Amar'e open for a jumper.

Carmelo Anthony's Problem:
Now i will be the first to admit i thought Carmelo Anthony was an overrated offensive player, but after watching about 11 games on Youtube i have seen that his problem is simple yet very difficult to correct.

In Denver we all know Carmelo was basically a full time ISO player. Well the reason being was the SPACING that he got to do his damage. With Kenyon Martin And Nene the Nuggets had 2 decent mid range shooting bigmen that could hit open shots 4-6/10 times per night if left open. In NY Melo always has one lurking big waiting to help when he drives or a double coming from the guy guarding Landry Fields or Iman since they are not serious threats from deep. In Denver this never happened, He was basically on an island with his defender where he would win the battle 8/10 times. He could unleash his full arsenal of moves and did not have to worry about being trapped or helped on since he had Jr, Billups, Lawson and Afflalo behind the 3pt line.

One thing that is the fault of D'antoni is that Carmelo is put in stand still situations without movement. Carmelo is a In-rhythm scorer that is best scoring when he is on the move, Not in terms of coming off screens but Melo's shooting percentage goes down significantly when spotting up, Melo likes to be going towards or away from the basket to get his shots off. In our system in its current state Melo is either SPOTTING UP or shooting contested jumpers or driving only to meet help defense. Melo now has very few chances to score and must rely on hitting open jumpers or Lin finding him cutting or in transition. That's 3 ways he scores now which eliminates the other ways he can score which is Isolating, Posting up, Attacking the basket or off the Pick And Roll.


Melo has no driving lanes and looks like Michael Jordan in 1997 with all the shots he shoots from the mid range area since he cant bully his defender 1o1 into the paint and finish threw him or over him or break his man down with hesitations and dribble moves, when is the last time you seen Melo use his patented moves off the dribble or his arsenal of post moves? Now he gets blocked excessively from big men helping or misses because of highly contested shots. In Denver everything he did was on the move and not from a stand still but with our system he gets the ball in awkward situations and not given room to do what he does best, which is break his defender down 1 on 1.

This was because of Denver's Variation of the Dribble Drive offense that allowed Anthony almost 2/3 of the floor to go to work with against his defender and if help came or over committed then he will dish to the cutter or the shooters.

Bottom line is that Melo is not even playing in an offense that is catered to him which hasn't been the case his whole career. He is not given room to operate and is never in rhythm with his shots and cannot use his whole arsenal because of constant help and aggressiveness from his defender knowing someone behind him got his back. Amar'e and Melo have the same issues with their scoring which is Spacing And Rhythm Shots.

Until this is corrected no matter how much practice we have, they will never be as effective as we want them to be or how they used to be. These two guys have always been scorers on the move and with our offense they are basically given the ball and needs to score on 3 guys to get their points, they are not comfortable and are not given the right personnel to be at the top of their game and will occasionally have great games since they are stars and will find ways to scorer, but long term they will always be inconsistent until the offense is changed or the right players are added.

Few will read but i just had to research to see if it is just that Melo and Amar'e are having down years or are they just put in terrible situations. Sorry for the long read but the issue is difficult to get others to understand and must be broke down.
 
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red32

Benchwarmer
Right, Stat definitely needs room to operator, but when he was with the Suns, they basically had no center. To do this here, we pretty much have to get Chandler out of the way, and without a defensive force like Chandler in our line-up, we pretty much have no chance.
 
Good post!

On a sidenote: I think that Felton was underrated. He was pretty damn good at playing the pnr and his defense was decent too until he got tired.

Lin is very good and the future, but he hasn't clicked with Amar'e at the pnr.
 

Weissenberg

Grid or Riot
Good post!

On a sidenote: I think that Felton was underrated. He was pretty damn good at playing the pnr and his defense was decent too until he got tired.

Lin is very good and the future, but he hasn't clicked with Amar'e at the pnr.
Lin hasn't played much P&R recently, he's been giving Amare/Carmelo the ball asap (we saw how it worked out before Linsanity) or driving to the basket. Before our "stars" got back he played helluva P&R with Jared and Tyson.
 
Lin hasn't played much P&R recently, he's been giving Amare/Carmelo the ball asap (we saw how it worked out before Linsanity) or driving to the basket. Before our "stars" got back he played helluva P&R with Jared and Tyson.

Exactly right. Leads me to the question why it doesn't work with him and Amar'e?
 

Knicks4Life_1985

★The Floor General★
Big Apple that is a damn good post man. I have never saw the Amare 50 on youtube , makes you wonder what if we drafted him instead of Nene and kept Camby / Mark Jackson
 

NYallDay

Benchwarmer
awesome post, great read. what also hurts us is that on pick and rolls, teams dont respect lins shot as much as they did nash's ( rightfully so). So instead of overplaying nash and letting the guy setting the pick get clear, they close in on the guy setting the pick.
 

Red

TYPE-A
Boy I tell ya!

We can overanalyze or we can keep it simple stupid.

1. This ain't Pheonix

2. No one currently on our team, or used to be is Steve Nash.

As Danny Ainge put it "Bird and McHale aren't walking through those doors to help you"

3. Whatever system you want to call it:

A) is unprooven
B) increases negative stats just as accentuates some positives
C) was run "best" with a squad 99% different from our current squad

4. When we had more "role" players ala Felton & Gallo etc...
WE WERE STILL NEXT TO LAST IN THE LEAGUE IN BOTH DEFENSE & REBOUNDING. Do you get that?

Let me repeat for those sucking Gallo off....

WE DIDN'T FIELD A CHAMPIONSHIP NOR SERIOUS PLAYOFF CALIBER TEAM BECAUSE OUR DEFENSE AND REBOUNDING WERE TOO POOR THEN.

5. Almost EVERY player we had prior to this year PLAYED OUT OF POSITION!

6. The only semi-legit argument anyone could present with minimal validity was the player argument.

We'll guess what you f*cking in denial unrealistic fantasizers...

Your beloved coached just proved he's way in over his head.

It takes a special coach to:

1. Recognize a player's/team's weaknesses and develop them to the point where they no longer exist.

Many of our players can't nor couldn't play defense with consistency. Has D'Antoni proved he could change that? No

2. Be successful in New York City
D'Antoni is SUB .500, is that your opinion of success? No

3. Coach the many ego's and talents of stars or higher talented players. D'Antoni has proven he can't influence the synergy needed for that to happen.

4. Know when he's wrong. Do I have to list the many players with the same if not better skill set that he DNP'd for his personal reasons like a bitch? No

5. Game plan specific. Have we witnessed a game plan to stop a specific player like teams with better coaches have done to us? No

6. Get the best out of his team. Besides PG's whom I may add have had the most injuries due to overue, who has D'Antoni made better?

7. Motivate. The key here is consistency. D'Antoni has been consistently inconsistent.

You guy's remind me of weak minded losers who talk themselves into staying with a Bitch because she cooks great. Please n!gga. I never settle.

Especially for mediocrity! No

D'Antoni is amongst thehighest paid coaches in the league. DO US ALL A F*CKING FAVOR AND EXPLAIN WHY HE SHOULD BE. If not then stfu.

No offense to the thread starter. A for effort but Fail for revisiting PHX as if that was a blueprint for success.
 
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^^^ what Red said.

Dumbtoni has 2 superstars, the second best Center in the league and a bench full of players that every other coach in the leave would love to have and he still can't get it done..

END OF STORY.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
It's about ****ing time. Excellent post.

Amidst all of the ranting and raving about STAT's loss of explosiveness, I've been imploring people to actually watch the game and just look at how uncomfortable STAT looks when Tyson is on the court. I really simplified it by saying that Tyson is occupying too much space with his own presence and bringing his man down low, STAT is forced to be a jump shooter, or take awkward drives to the rim and either fail, or fail and get a charging foul called on him.

He flourished last year as our center, with the court spaced by Fields, Gallo, and Wilson. Now this year he has Tyson...who's going no where, and it just happens to coincide with his lack of explosiveness, and the majority of the forums was focusing on that.

So when I bring up..."hey...this isn't exactly working, the Knicks should explore moving him (if at all possible) for a stretch 4 that actually fits into the offense, instead of trying to shoehorn the square peg into the round hole"-- I get nothing constructive... The majority of what I got was "shut up" or "come on dude, give STAT time!!!" I'm like, time to what?!?!??

Never got an answer.

I'm glad to see a post that goes into this kind of detail tho, and get some recognition. +rep for this.
 

iSaYughh

Starter
^^^ what Red said.

Dumbtoni has 2 superstars, the second best Center in the league and a bench full of players that every other coach in the leave would love to have and he still can't get it done..

END OF STORY.

implied-facepalm-implied-facepalm-demotivational-poster-1259858393.jpg


Sad.

Stop tainting some of the recently rare high-powered, quality, well-researched threads on here w/ these lame ass, played out D'antoni obsessions.

There are plenty of pastures on here to spread this type of uninspired shit.

Ah ya, read the thread too.
 
Nice thread, and posts guys...

IMHO...

The main and obvious problem is failure to adapt. Granted the coach wants to push his system, but his system needs to be tweaked to fit what he actually has. The coach is not on the court (hardly was a baller when he was), what is on the court are players who possess better skills and common knowledge of the game. They are trying to work a system that is not really fashioned for them.

Melo is a scorer, use him to draw double and triple teams?he?s a great passer, let him use his iso every now and then to keep teams honest while resting our teams legs from the constant fast pace of D?ants system. Even in the Indy 500 drivers have to take a pit once in a while?

Stat is a paint baller, get him the ball around the paint where he doesn?t have to dribble the rock more than 2 times. He?s strong and a gifted finisher around the basket and has the knack for picking up and 1?s. PNR?s, back door cuts, ally?s,etc?are his strong points, also helping him to developing a post game presence can help with the spacing, resting of team mates legs, this will also free up team mates for the open 3ball. He is not an outside threat and should never ever be around the perimeter.

Lin is a pass first PG, that alone is a rare commodity. Use him just for that and cut his shots down because he?s not a consistent scorer, he needs to get the ball to his consistent scorers on consistent bases if he wants them to stay hot. If he is going to shoot the ball? it should only be after the second option. If he improves his handle and learns to pass without using his eyes?he?ll excel in any system.

Novak is what he is ?an outside threat. Have him around the 3line on the same side as Stat (Stat in the post) to help open up both of their games. If Stat gets doubled, Novocain will be waiting to do what he does best?

Chandler is the board banger, intimidator? the tyrant giant in the middle. He needs to develop chemistry with Stat more than anyone else?as they both will be sharing that paint. Don?t expect him to score much, don?t even look to make him score much?his points come when teams don?t expect him to score. Any points from him are a plus and help exposes weaknesses in the others team interior D. However, if the other team is willing to let him score?feed him.

Shump?s is a combo guard but better at the 2, He?s great at the point for defensive purposes. His game will elevate with time, but as of now you have to manage him carefully, particularly for situations on the D -end. Right now his defensive services and hustle is more important than his scoring. The only time I?ll have him trying to score is when Stat and Melo is on the pine, other than that I would want him to attack the basket only, his shooting is ok but I think the team benefits more when he drives. Having him attack will increase fouls (and 1?s), his slashing always collapses the opponents defense?use Shump for this and have him throw it out to a team mate waiting around the 3 line. Also, a successful drive to the hole will most likely be electrifying?knowing how athletic he is?the Knicks play well after making ShowTime plays.

Fields is a SG/SF. He plays way better when Melo is on the bench. He can just about do it all but becomes stagnated or a rebounder when Melo is in the game. He?s a second unit guy I think can play very well with Lin and JR.

J.R.Smith is the Knicks scoring SG, his familiarity of Melo would be a plus. However, his contributions in that department are best suited coming off the bench. In time he?ll get used to his teammates and fit in well, he?s a baller 4sure.

B.Davis is iffy, but as of now he?s our only true QB. All he has to do is get the ball to his prime receivers and let them do their job. His scoring isn?t there yet, but that?s to be expected. If he?s in the game with Stat and/or Melo he should concentrate on their sweet spots. He?s savvy and handles the rock well enough to confuse the D, but needs to get the D to commit more?this will happen more often when he gets his shot back.

Jorts is a banger, he?s big and will give Chandler some rest and the Knicks some offensive boards. He?s not a true outside shooter, it?s not his makeup, he?ll hit some every now and then but his obvious talents lie around the basket. Once he develops quicker feet and better awareness he?ll be a serious problem for other teams around the paint. He?s big and tuff enough to pick up charges, and wear down the bigs when he?s banging the boards.

J.Jefferies is just a tall lanky scrappy dude who can shadow even some of the smallest PG?s. His confidence as a scorer is shot, but peeks every now and then when he plays within his zone. Meaning, if he?s out there hustling?he seems to naturally find the right spots to receive an easy open shot. If he is stagnated out there he will easily give up the open shot and sink into one of his funks. He relies heavily on the up-tempo game to be of any kind of use, if the game turns into a slow or half court game? he will most likely suck.

T.Douglas is a small defensive guard. His strengths are the 3 ball and defensive awareness, before his shoulder injury he was a penetrator as well, now with little confidence and playing time? his insecurities are clearly seen on his sleeves. If he remains on the team he should show more passion for his teammates and try to improve himself in areas that will make him unique and valuable to a team?being a small guard in this league is not going to be easy. If he regains that?s scrappy D presence he?ll be an asset?on any team.

Bibby is probably washed, but his experience as a passer should still be useful if the Knicks suffer injuries at the point. I?m sure he can also manage our sanitation dept?. when we are fortunate to have some garbage time.

J.Jordan wants to play and badly too. You can see it in his eyes, but the rotation will have to be long if he wants playing time, D?ant has a problem with extended rotations. I also suspect his timing and awareness is not there yet. He still looks a bit timid and/or confuse. He has the skill set, but will need to play more with the Knicks instead of ?Erie? if he is expected to gel properly.

Walker is a streaky shooter who will not hesitate to throw it down on you; I?ll use him around the 3line and for driving the hole. He can provide a spark with his hard dunks, plus he has a knack for trash talking and getting into the others teams head. He should be used as an equalizer, the aggressive hitman for fouling and mind games. He can be used both as a valuable and expendable player? depending on the team the Knicks are playing that day.

-----------

The units I would use for D?Ants system?.knowing how he likes play this game?.

1st unit- Lin, Iman, Melo, JJ, Chandler?????..scoring and Defense

2nd unit- Davis, JR, Fields, Walker/Novak, Stat?????????.keeping a steady pace while still providing some offense.

Hustle unit (not always a scoring unit)- Lin, Fields, Walker, JJ, Chandler??..the go,go,go, squad

Half court scoring unit (slowing the game down a bit) Davis, J.R, Mello, JJ, Chandler??this squad can slow the game down and still be effective while allowing our team to rest a bit.

PNR unit ? Lin, J.R., Fields, Stat, Chandler???these guys have the best offensive awareness and seem to play the best off of the ball.

Sanitation Department (garbage time) Bibby/Douglas, Shump, Walker, Novak, Jodan/Jorts???..when the game is already in the bag, this group of guys will add some extra highlights to that reel.


just rolling my:2cents:
 
It's about ****ing time. Excellent post.

Amidst all of the ranting and raving about STAT's loss of explosiveness, I've been imploring people to actually watch the game and just look at how uncomfortable STAT looks when Tyson is on the court. I really simplified it by saying that Tyson is occupying too much space with his own presence and bringing his man down low, STAT is forced to be a jump shooter, or take awkward drives to the rim and either fail, or fail and get a charging foul called on him.

He flourished last year as our center, with the court spaced by Fields, Gallo, and Wilson. Now this year he has Tyson...who's going no where, and it just happens to coincide with his lack of explosiveness, and the majority of the forums was focusing on that.

So when I bring up..."hey...this isn't exactly working, the Knicks should explore moving him (if at all possible) for a stretch 4 that actually fits into the offense, instead of trying to shoehorn the square peg into the round hole"-- I get nothing constructive... The majority of what I got was "shut up" or "come on dude, give STAT time!!!" I'm like, time to what?!?!??

Never got an answer.

I'm glad to see a post that goes into this kind of detail tho, and get some recognition. +rep for this.

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that you'd trade STAT for a lessor talent because he doesnt fit MDA's offense?

Guys. MDAs system could be a world beater. The best ever invented, but talent wins in this league. There are no two ways about it.

I remember wishing Ewing had just "ONE MORE GUY". He didnt, and you all know how that turned out.

Seriously. Wouldnt it be better to create a "system" the accentuates these players talents?
 

Red

TYPE-A
Let me get this straight. Are you saying that you'd trade STAT for a lessor talent because he doesnt fit MDA's offense?

Guys. MDAs system could be a world beater. The best ever invented, but talent wins in this league. There are no two ways about it.

I remember wishing Ewing had just "ONE MORE GUY". He didnt, and you all know how that turned out.

Seriously. Wouldnt it be better to create a "system" the accentuates these players talents?

Lol, you make too much sense.

But at some point D'Antoni's right to say "I told you so" won't matter.
D'Antoni is paid to find answers to the Knicks' problems, not just point out when they exist, as he's continued to do after the Knicks' back-to-back road losses to Dallas and San Antonio that again left Anthony questioning his role.
Carmelo AnthonyJesse D. Garrabrant/Getty ImagesMike D'Antoni's Knicks are 32-39 since acquiring Carmelo Anthony from Denver last season.

The constant assurances from both he and Anthony that the answer is for Anthony to work his way into D'Antoni's offense aren't good enough anymore. The System that D'Antoni runs -- capital "T", capital "S" -- seems to have a way of making workday players look good here, but it and Anthony mix like sand and oil. Unless there's some mega-trade in the works that is going to send Anthony off to Orlando for*Dwight Howard
, it's hard to see how D'Antoni survives those paradoxes that the white-hot start Lin got off to only obscured.
How does a coach survive presiding over a team that has better talent but actually plays worse? How is it that a widely acclaimed offensive guru like D'Antoni can't flourish when the man who some consider the best pure scorer in the NBA drops into his lap?

Need we say anything more?

Tell you what, D'Antoni can take his approach to MIA BOS wherever. Then you guys can go root for them.
 
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chupchup

Rookie
Agreed. Spacing and Shooting in the age of zone defenses is what is needed. This is why they're losing to the 2nd unit.

Everyone clogs the lane with no one that can consistently hit a three pointer or outside shot to stretch the floor.

Also Amare's still out of shape. Losing 10 lbs in 10 days and wanting to lose 5 more pounds? So he was 15 lbs overweight in the first half.
 
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