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Thread: D'antoni Offensive Philosophy Researched/The Problem With Carmelo And Amar

  1. #16
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    This is a solid post. Good **** Big apple sports.

  2. #17
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    Nice thread, and posts guys...

    IMHO...

    The main and obvious problem is failure to adapt. Granted the coach wants to push his system, but his system needs to be tweaked to fit what he actually has. The coach is not on the court (hardly was a baller when he was), what is on the court are players who possess better skills and common knowledge of the game. They are trying to work a system that is not really fashioned for them.

    Melo is a scorer, use him to draw double and triple teams…he’s a great passer, let him use his iso every now and then to keep teams honest while resting our teams legs from the constant fast pace of D’ants system. Even in the Indy 500 drivers have to take a pit once in a while…

    Stat is a paint baller, get him the ball around the paint where he doesn’t have to dribble the rock more than 2 times. He’s strong and a gifted finisher around the basket and has the knack for picking up and 1’s. PNR’s, back door cuts, ally’s,etc…are his strong points, also helping him to developing a post game presence can help with the spacing, resting of team mates legs, this will also free up team mates for the open 3ball. He is not an outside threat and should never ever be around the perimeter.

    Lin is a pass first PG, that alone is a rare commodity. Use him just for that and cut his shots down because he’s not a consistent scorer, he needs to get the ball to his consistent scorers on consistent bases if he wants them to stay hot. If he is going to shoot the ball… it should only be after the second option. If he improves his handle and learns to pass without using his eyes…he’ll excel in any system.

    Novak is what he is …an outside threat. Have him around the 3line on the same side as Stat (Stat in the post) to help open up both of their games. If Stat gets doubled, Novocain will be waiting to do what he does best…

    Chandler is the board banger, intimidator… the tyrant giant in the middle. He needs to develop chemistry with Stat more than anyone else…as they both will be sharing that paint. Don’t expect him to score much, don’t even look to make him score much…his points come when teams don’t expect him to score. Any points from him are a plus and help exposes weaknesses in the others team interior D. However, if the other team is willing to let him score…feed him.

    Shump’s is a combo guard but better at the 2, He’s great at the point for defensive purposes. His game will elevate with time, but as of now you have to manage him carefully, particularly for situations on the D -end. Right now his defensive services and hustle is more important than his scoring. The only time I’ll have him trying to score is when Stat and Melo is on the pine, other than that I would want him to attack the basket only, his shooting is ok but I think the team benefits more when he drives. Having him attack will increase fouls (and 1’s), his slashing always collapses the opponents defense…use Shump for this and have him throw it out to a team mate waiting around the 3 line. Also, a successful drive to the hole will most likely be electrifying…knowing how athletic he is…the Knicks play well after making ShowTime plays.

    Fields is a SG/SF. He plays way better when Melo is on the bench. He can just about do it all but becomes stagnated or a rebounder when Melo is in the game. He’s a second unit guy I think can play very well with Lin and JR.

    J.R.Smith is the Knicks scoring SG, his familiarity of Melo would be a plus. However, his contributions in that department are best suited coming off the bench. In time he’ll get used to his teammates and fit in well, he’s a baller 4sure.

    B.Davis is iffy, but as of now he’s our only true QB. All he has to do is get the ball to his prime receivers and let them do their job. His scoring isn’t there yet, but that’s to be expected. If he’s in the game with Stat and/or Melo he should concentrate on their sweet spots. He’s savvy and handles the rock well enough to confuse the D, but needs to get the D to commit more…this will happen more often when he gets his shot back.

    Jorts is a banger, he’s big and will give Chandler some rest and the Knicks some offensive boards. He’s not a true outside shooter, it’s not his makeup, he’ll hit some every now and then but his obvious talents lie around the basket. Once he develops quicker feet and better awareness he’ll be a serious problem for other teams around the paint. He’s big and tuff enough to pick up charges, and wear down the bigs when he’s banging the boards.

    J.Jefferies is just a tall lanky scrappy dude who can shadow even some of the smallest PG’s. His confidence as a scorer is shot, but peeks every now and then when he plays within his zone. Meaning, if he’s out there hustling…he seems to naturally find the right spots to receive an easy open shot. If he is stagnated out there he will easily give up the open shot and sink into one of his funks. He relies heavily on the up-tempo game to be of any kind of use, if the game turns into a slow or half court game… he will most likely suck.

    T.Douglas is a small defensive guard. His strengths are the 3 ball and defensive awareness, before his shoulder injury he was a penetrator as well, now with little confidence and playing time… his insecurities are clearly seen on his sleeves. If he remains on the team he should show more passion for his teammates and try to improve himself in areas that will make him unique and valuable to a team…being a small guard in this league is not going to be easy. If he regains that’s scrappy D presence he’ll be an asset…on any team.

    Bibby is probably washed, but his experience as a passer should still be useful if the Knicks suffer injuries at the point. I’m sure he can also manage our sanitation dept…. when we are fortunate to have some garbage time.

    J.Jordan wants to play and badly too. You can see it in his eyes, but the rotation will have to be long if he wants playing time, D’ant has a problem with extended rotations. I also suspect his timing and awareness is not there yet. He still looks a bit timid and/or confuse. He has the skill set, but will need to play more with the Knicks instead of “Erie” if he is expected to gel properly.

    Walker is a streaky shooter who will not hesitate to throw it down on you; I’ll use him around the 3line and for driving the hole. He can provide a spark with his hard dunks, plus he has a knack for trash talking and getting into the others teams head. He should be used as an equalizer, the aggressive hitman for fouling and mind games. He can be used both as a valuable and expendable player… depending on the team the Knicks are playing that day.

    -----------

    The units I would use for D’Ants system….knowing how he likes play this game….

    1st unit- Lin, Iman, Melo, JJ, Chandler……………..scoring and Defense

    2nd unit- Davis, JR, Fields, Walker/Novak, Stat……………………….keeping a steady pace while still providing some offense.

    Hustle unit (not always a scoring unit)- Lin, Fields, Walker, JJ, Chandler……..the go,go,go, squad

    Half court scoring unit (slowing the game down a bit) Davis, J.R, Mello, JJ, Chandler……this squad can slow the game down and still be effective while allowing our team to rest a bit.

    PNR unit – Lin, J.R., Fields, Stat, Chandler………these guys have the best offensive awareness and seem to play the best off of the ball.

    Sanitation Department (garbage time) Bibby/Douglas, Shump, Walker, Novak, Jodan/Jorts………..when the game is already in the bag, this group of guys will add some extra highlights to that reel.


    just rolling my

  3. #18
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    It's about ****ing time. Excellent post.

    Amidst all of the ranting and raving about STAT's loss of explosiveness, I've been imploring people to actually watch the game and just look at how uncomfortable STAT looks when Tyson is on the court. I really simplified it by saying that Tyson is occupying too much space with his own presence and bringing his man down low, STAT is forced to be a jump shooter, or take awkward drives to the rim and either fail, or fail and get a charging foul called on him.

    He flourished last year as our center, with the court spaced by Fields, Gallo, and Wilson. Now this year he has Tyson...who's going no where, and it just happens to coincide with his lack of explosiveness, and the majority of the forums was focusing on that.

    So when I bring up..."hey...this isn't exactly working, the Knicks should explore moving him (if at all possible) for a stretch 4 that actually fits into the offense, instead of trying to shoehorn the square peg into the round hole"-- I get nothing constructive... The majority of what I got was "shut up" or "come on dude, give STAT time!!!" I'm like, time to what?!?!??

    Never got an answer.

    I'm glad to see a post that goes into this kind of detail tho, and get some recognition. +rep for this.
    Let me get this straight. Are you saying that you'd trade STAT for a lessor talent because he doesnt fit MDA's offense?

    Guys. MDAs system could be a world beater. The best ever invented, but talent wins in this league. There are no two ways about it.

    I remember wishing Ewing had just "ONE MORE GUY". He didnt, and you all know how that turned out.

    Seriously. Wouldnt it be better to create a "system" the accentuates these players talents?

  4. #19
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Let me get this straight. Are you saying that you'd trade STAT for a lessor talent because he doesnt fit MDA's offense?

    Guys. MDAs system could be a world beater. The best ever invented, but talent wins in this league. There are no two ways about it.

    I remember wishing Ewing had just "ONE MORE GUY". He didnt, and you all know how that turned out.

    Seriously. Wouldnt it be better to create a "system" the accentuates these players talents?
    Lol, you make too much sense.

    But at some point D'Antoni's right to say "I told you so" won't matter.
    D'Antoni is paid to find answers to the Knicks' problems, not just point out when they exist, as he's continued to do after the Knicks' back-to-back road losses to Dallas and San Antonio that again left Anthony questioning his role.
    Carmelo AnthonyJesse D. Garrabrant/Getty ImagesMike D'Antoni's Knicks are 32-39 since acquiring Carmelo Anthony from Denver last season.

    The constant assurances from both he and Anthony that the answer is for Anthony to work his way into D'Antoni's offense aren't good enough anymore. The System that D'Antoni runs -- capital "T", capital "S" -- seems to have a way of making workday players look good here, but it and Anthony mix like sand and oil. Unless there's some mega-trade in the works that is going to send Anthony off to Orlando for*Dwight Howard
    , it's hard to see how D'Antoni survives those paradoxes that the white-hot start Lin got off to only obscured.
    How does a coach survive presiding over a team that has better talent but actually plays worse? How is it that a widely acclaimed offensive guru like D'Antoni can't flourish when the man who some consider the best pure scorer in the NBA drops into his lap?
    Need we say anything more?

    Tell you what, D'Antoni can take his approach to MIA BOS wherever. Then you guys can go root for them.
    Last edited by Red; Mar 09, 2012 at 12:56. Reason: courtesy of ESPN.com

  5. #20
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    Agreed. Spacing and Shooting in the age of zone defenses is what is needed. This is why they're losing to the 2nd unit.

    Everyone clogs the lane with no one that can consistently hit a three pointer or outside shot to stretch the floor.

    Also Amare's still out of shape. Losing 10 lbs in 10 days and wanting to lose 5 more pounds? So he was 15 lbs overweight in the first half.

  6. #21
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    ^^^^I really dont understand this obsession with his system. It's worked for one team. It's not like he won a ring with it. A good coach would scrap his so called "SYSTEM" to coach the talents of the team he currently has. Pat Riley did it...

  7. #22
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    Good detailed post.

    Now, in reading all the information you included, there are certainly spacing issues on offense.

    What confuses me is how a random KOL poster can see this with great clarity but the coach of a pro basketball team doesn't. Actually, I don't know that he doesn't realize it but certainly if you're known as an "offensive genius" shouldn't you be able to remedy this a bit?

    The term "offensive genius" implies that you can create offense out of any situation.

    I'll go a slightly different route and say a huge problem on offense is Amare's inability to post up. We start games with 4 shooters, so at no point can we establish something in the paint to open up the perimeter a bit. A Healthy balance of low post, mid range and long range shots would go a long way.

    I don't believe Antoni requires or needs a post up player with the way he wants to play, but based on the TYPE of players he has, it would make a big difference. The reason why most of Lin's passes are successful to TC is because where he's positioned (near the basket). On the other hand, Amare stays out on the perimeter and therefore its not as simple to get him easy high % shots.

    IMO these can be corrected but it will take the players to trust in it. At this point though, its pretty broken.

    I appreciate the poster breaking things down like that but #1 this isn't PHX and #2 he doesn't have the ability to make this team work.

  8. #23
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    Originally Posted by chupchup
    Agreed. Spacing and Shooting in the age of zone defenses is what is needed. This is why they're losing to the 2nd unit.

    Everyone clogs the lane with no one that can consistently hit a three pointer or outside shot to stretch the floor.

    Also Amare's still out of shape. Losing 10 lbs in 10 days and wanting to lose 5 more pounds? So he was 15 lbs overweight in the first half.
    STAT wasnt out of shape. He purposely put on pounds to get stronger. It was good weight...

  9. #24
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    Originally Posted by iSaYughh


    Sad.

    Stop tainting some of the recently rare high-powered, quality, well-researched threads on here w/ these lame ass, played out D'antoni obsessions.

    There are plenty of pastures on here to spread this type of uninspired ****.

    Ah ya, read the thread too.
    Read the thread...all of it, yes it was very we'll written, but no ****ing way would I trade a whole team of very good players for 1 dumb ass coach who hasn't even won ****. Not trying to start an argument just staying what I believe.

  10. #25
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    this type of analysis bears no merit its like those "scholars" who analyze Jeters defense and ranked him worst SS fielder in league. come on this is not how the game is played using stats and comparisons

  11. #26
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    STAT wasnt out of shape. He purposely put on pounds to get stronger. It was good weight...
    I think that's just a PR spin on their part. He said it himself that he didn't pick up a basketball for the entire lockout (ie 6 months).

    Good weight is when you gain strength & lbs and still maintain your explosiveness. We all can tell he's much more explosive these past two games versus the 1st half of the season.

  12. #27
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    Originally Posted by chupchup
    Agreed. Spacing and Shooting in the age of zone defenses is what is needed. This is why they're losing to the 2nd unit.

  13. #28
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    Originally Posted by OriginalKnickGrandson
    Read the thread...all of it, yes it was very we'll written, but no ****ing way would I trade a whole team of very good players for 1 dumb ass coach who hasn't even won ****. Not trying to start an argument just staying what I believe.

  14. #29
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    Two things i noticed about the Nash highlight reel- Nash plays with supreme confidence in his dribble- something that Lin started off doing but has lost in the last few games.. I think maybe all the scrutiny over his turnovers caused him to overhaul his game and not for the better

    Amare was just way more athletic and had a lot of faith in his pull up mid range game (Yes i know he has less room to work with this year because of our lack of quality 3 point shooting, but still he misses wide open 15 footers badly all the time)

  15. #30
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    Originally Posted by FireCoachD
    Two things i noticed about the Nash highlight reel- Nash plays with supreme confidence in his dribble- something that Lin started off doing but has lost in the last few games.. I think maybe all the scrutiny over his turnovers caused him to overhaul his game and not for the better

    Amare was just way more athletic and had a lot of faith in his pull up mid range game (Yes i know he has less room to work with this year because of our lack of quality 3 point shooting, but still he misses wide open 15 footers badly all the time)
    Maybe its LIN feeling intimidated by Melo.......I think as CLYDE said it best in another thread LIN should go back to playing the way he did.....and YES if that means more shots then Melo and Stat so be it......We were winning without them........Let Melo and Stat find shots through offensive rebounds,,,,,

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