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Thread: D'antoni Offensive Philosophy Researched/The Problem With Carmelo And Amar

  1. #31
    Veteran OriginalKnickGrandson's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk

    Wow, really? Very grown up. Nothing to add just a lame picture. Guess your one to change the whole team and not their clueless leader huh?

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    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OriginalKnickGrandson
    Wow, really? Very grown up. Nothing to add just a lame picture. Guess your one to change the whole team and not their clueless leader huh?
    I think you missed his point. I'm sure nyk_nyk is on board with not catering to MDA's need to build the Phoenix Suns East.

    It's still a very well written thread tho. My only question is, can we realistically implement STAT in an offense where he's in the post, and everything would theoretically work off of him in the half court?

    I dunno if he's that guy. I'm not hating on the man, but he's been under MDA's tutelage for what...7-8 years? He is who he is, it's unfair to everyone...him included, to expect him to play a certain way and utilize a skill set that he doesn't really have.

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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    I think you missed his point. I'm sure nyk_nyk is on board with not catering to MDA's need to build the Phoenix Suns East.

    It's still a very well written thread tho. My only question is, can we realistically implement STAT in an offense where he's in the post, and everything would theoretically work off of him in the half court?

    I dunno if he's that guy. I'm not hating on the man, but he's been under MDA's tutelage for what...7-8 years? He is who he is, it's unfair to everyone...him included, to expect him to play a certain way and utilize a skill set that he doesn't really have.

    The answer to your question is "no".
    Amare isn't and never will be a back to the basket post player. We are built to be a running team except for a handful of player (ie Mello, Novak and maybe Harilson) . Question is can Dumbtoni get the best out of his players skill sets and again the answer is "no". Proven in the desert years ago it takes defense and a good halfcourt offense to win the big games where each possession counts, not some gimmick Speedball approach to the game.

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    I think one positive, uncomplicated move that could be installed would simply to encourage more 2-man play between Lin and Melo.

    This could be with either the pick/n/roll or give/go. Melo wouldn't be able to set as strong picks as Stat or Chandler, but he'd also be much better receiving the ball and making quick moves. Even a give-go would loosen things up. Now, all I notice is Lin feeding Melo at the post and then giving him room to iso, which allows the defense to get set.

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    ^^^^I really dont understand this obsession with his system. It's worked for one team. It's not like he won a ring with it. A good coach would scrap his so called "SYSTEM" to coach the talents of the team he currently has. Pat Riley did it...

    Post trade last season and the first two months of this season the "system" was not being used, AT ALL. It wasn't until Lin arrived that the system was actually being implemented. Even when Billups was here, it wasn't D'Antoni's system being run. It was a hybrid, almost triangle system. Which gave us a .500 record.

    Pat Riley didn't scrap his system. Riley has always been about bump & run defense, rebounding, team defense, brutal practices and mental toughness. That's been his modus operandi from day one, never changed.

    I don't know of many coaches that change their system. Not any great ones I can think of.


    *Edit: I keep seeing people making the claim that a good coach "gets the best out of his players skill sets". What does that really mean? For Melo, isn't that essentially iso-Melo? He doesn't work well off the ball and doesn't understand spacing in the slightest. To maximise Melo's skills we would need to go back to iso-Melo. With the compliment of players on the roster, we've seen how terrible that works.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Mar 09, 2012 at 15:32.

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    Default This Post Thread need Real Talk....

    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    I think you missed his point. I'm sure nyk_nyk is on board with not catering to MDA's need to build the Phoenix Suns East.

    It's still a very well written thread tho. My only question is, can we realistically implement STAT in an offense where he's in the post, and everything would theoretically work off of him in the half court?

    I dunno if he's that guy. I'm not hating on the man, but he's been under MDA's tutelage for what...7-8 years? He is who he is, it's unfair to everyone...him included, to expect him to play a certain way and utilize a skill set that he doesn't really have.
    Real Talk....
    After watching 39 Knicks games, plus last season playoffs....I dont see Stat or Melo putting up any effort to WIN for coach Dantoni.
    The weekend Dantoni Job was in jeopardy of being FIRED, Stat was out with a family situation however, Melo just happen to pull his groin in the first quarter vs the Deron Williams Nets, with the Knicks next game being against the Utah Jazz.
    It is very hard to convince a real basketball player who happen to be a die hard Knicks fan that $200M Stat & Melo performance has not given up on getting personal-conflict Dantoni FIRED.
    Did Shawn Marion try to unite with Dantoni in NY? who do u think is closer to Stat? Marion or Dantoni?

    Dantoni philosophy means zilch to two superstar players who have the POWER to make their teammates screen, pick, or block any oponent out of their way so they dont have to make one ISO play while double or tripple team in a game.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Post trade last season and the first two months of this season the "system" was not being used, AT ALL. It wasn't until Lin arrived that the system was actually being implemented. Even when Billups was here, it wasn't D'Antoni's system being run. It was a hybrid, almost triangle system. Which gave us a .500 record.

    Pat Riley didn't scrap his system. Riley has always been about bump & run defense, rebounding, team defense, brutal practices and mental toughness. That's been his modus operandi from day one, never changed.

    I don't know of many coaches that change their system. Not any great ones I can think of.


    *Edit: I keep seeing people making the claim that a good coach "gets the best out of his players skill sets". What does that really mean? For Melo, isn't that essentially iso-Melo? He doesn't work well off the ball and doesn't understand spacing in the slightest. To maximise Melo's skills we would need to go back to iso-Melo. With the compliment of players on the roster, we've seen how terrible that works.
    Riley had purely a "FINESSE TEAM" in L A. Jabbar wasnt a physical player. Neither was Worthy, Magic, Cooper et all. Maybe Rambis. They ran the ball and worked off Jabber.

    With NY and Ewing, Oakley he coached one one the most physical teams in NBA history that slowed the game down and played primarily half court sets. He didnt try to bring "Showtime" with him east. He adjusted to what he had...
    Last edited by Clyde & The Pearl; Mar 09, 2012 at 16:03.

  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    I think you missed his point. I'm sure nyk_nyk is on board with not catering to MDA's need to build the Phoenix Suns East.

    It's still a very well written thread tho. My only question is, can we realistically implement STAT in an offense where he's in the post, and everything would theoretically work off of him in the half court?

    I dunno if he's that guy. I'm not hating on the man, but he's been under MDA's tutelage for what...7-8 years? He is who he is, it's unfair to everyone...him included, to expect him to play a certain way and utilize a skill set that he doesn't really have.
    So nuckles, you complained about no one answering your suggestion, but when I question it you seem to ignore my post. What gives?

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Post trade last season and the first two months of this season the "system" was not being used, AT ALL. It wasn't until Lin arrived that the system was actually being implemented. Even when Billups was here, it wasn't D'Antoni's system being run. It was a hybrid, almost triangle system. Which gave us a .500 record.

    Pat Riley didn't scrap his system. Riley has always been about bump & run defense, rebounding, team defense, brutal practices and mental toughness. That's been his modus operandi from day one, never changed.

    I don't know of many coaches that change their system. Not any great ones I can think of.


    *Edit: I keep seeing people making the claim that a good coach "gets the best out of his players skill sets". What does that really mean? For Melo, isn't that essentially iso-Melo? He doesn't work well off the ball and doesn't understand spacing in the slightest. To maximise Melo's skills we would need to go back to iso-Melo. With the compliment of players on the roster, we've seen how terrible that works.

    To get the best out of Mello he needs to have shooters on the outside to spread the floor and rebounding/finishing bigman under the basket. Contrary to popular belief Mello is a very good passer and I'm sure winning is very important to him (as it is to all superstars) to put him above the rest of his peers. I'm not sure why you say he dissent know how to space the floor or move without the ball? Seems at one time he did just fine getting of easy shots set up by Chauncey and also found J.R. Smith and others sitting outside in Denver.

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    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    So nuckles, you complained about no one answering your suggestion, but when I question it you seem to ignore my post. What gives?

    Originally Posted by Clyde & The Pearl
    Let me get this straight. Are you saying that you'd trade STAT for a lessor talent because he doesnt fit MDA's offense?

    Guys. MDAs system could be a world beater. The best ever invented, but talent wins in this league. There are no two ways about it.

    I remember wishing Ewing had just "ONE MORE GUY". He didnt, and you all know how that turned out.

    Seriously. Wouldnt it be better to create a "system" the accentuates these players talents?
    Honestly didn't even see this, had to go back and read it, honest mistake.

    It would absolutely be better to build a team that accentuates the current roster's talent, that's actually the more realistic option over moving STAT.

    My thing is, STAT has no consistent post game to speak of, and he's not a stretch 4. He's kind of in limbo between being a low post 4, and a stretch 4.

    I don't know how well that will work out in year 5 of his deal at $23M with no amnesty. His game is predicated on the PnR and crashing to the rim, more so than the pick and pop, or setting a strong pick, rolling, and then sealing his man off and getting the ball. If he did that last one, that would open it up for everyone else in the half court, but it's not a part of his game.

    I don't know for a fact that he would have more success in an offense where it's essentially centered around him in the low block with his man sealed off. He doesn't have the footwork, his touch around the rim is very suspect.

    He's been groomed to be the athletic freak in an uptempo, spaced out, offense.

    So my trading him for "lesser" talent wouldn't be for MDA, but just to build a better all around team going forward.

    Now if STAT suddenly shows the ability to operate down low, with a set defense, and look comfortable and shows he's a legit threat down there. I'll have no problem with a 32-33 year old Amar'e @ $23M.

  11. #41
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    I think he has more of a problem operating with Tyson, than he does Melo. He and Melo could run the PnR all day if STAT was playing the 5. But since his game is crashing hard, and quickly to the rim out of the PnR, it's not looking so great when Tyson is out there. There are more bodies in the way.

    So how do we build around what we have? It seems like there's an issue up front. The best thing for this team is to operate in the half court, and run when appropriate. But I don't know how you implement STAT and a true 5 like Chandler in the half court. Amar'e is not a jump shooter, and he's not a low post operator...so what is he?

    I wanna see how it works tonight if Tyson plays. I wanted to see it against the Spurs, but obviously Tyson wasn't out there...and they still ran very few PnR's for Amar'e, which I found strange. But that was one game, I'm not gonna make too much of it.

    Edit: Tyson is out again, but this time STAT is starting at the 5, instead of Jorts. I expect to see the high PnR all game. He should look like the old STAT tonight, especially if his explosiveness is coming back.

    It's a weird situation, cause we know this offense isn't the answer, but then, what do we really know about STAT being the low post presence in a more traditional offense?
    Last edited by nuckles2k2; Mar 09, 2012 at 16:31.

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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    I think he has more of a problem operating with Tyson, than he does Melo. He and Melo could run the PnR all day if STAT was playing the 5. But since his game is crashing hard, and quickly to the rim out of the PnR, it's not looking so great when Tyson is out there. There are more bodies in the way.

    So how do we build around what we have? It seems like there's an issue up front. The best thing for this team is to operate in the half court, and run when appropriate. But I don't know how you implement STAT and a true 5 like Chandler in the half court. Amar'e is not a jump shooter, and he's not a low post operator...so what is he?

    I wanna see how it works tonight if Tyson plays. I wanted to see it against the Spurs, but obviously Tyson wasn't out there...and they still ran very few PnR's for Amar'e, which I found strange. But that was one game, I'm not gonna make too much of it.

    Edit: Tyson is out again, but this time STAT is starting at the 5, instead of Jorts. I expect to see the high PnR all game. He should look like the old STAT tonight, especially if his explosiveness is coming back.

    It's a weird situation, cause we know this offense isn't the answer, but then, what do we really know about STAT being the low post presence in a more traditional offense?
    If worse come to worse Let Chandler and Stat split it up at C........I mean with the short season and the Knicks now with 2 squads of 5 why not just run that way.......
    Lin
    Shump
    Melo
    Chandler
    Novak

    Davis
    Fields
    Smith
    Jeffries
    Stat....

    use Jorts for whoever is injured or playing like crap...

  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    I think he has more of a problem operating with Tyson, than he does Melo. He and Melo could run the PnR all day if STAT was playing the 5. But since his game is crashing hard, and quickly to the rim out of the PnR, it's not looking so great when Tyson is out there. There are more bodies in the way.

    So how do we build around what we have? It seems like there's an issue up front. The best thing for this team is to operate in the half court, and run when appropriate. But I don't know how you implement STAT and a true 5 like Chandler in the half court. Amar'e is not a jump shooter, and he's not a low post operator...so what is he?

    I wanna see how it works tonight if Tyson plays. I wanted to see it against the Spurs, but obviously Tyson wasn't out there...and they still ran very few PnR's for Amar'e, which I found strange. But that was one game, I'm not gonna make too much of it.

    IMHO this team would be better suited utilizing a post up offense with some P&R mixed in. I dont know that STAT cant post. I've seen him post up maybe 2-3 times in the last 5 games.

    Chandler is limited offensively. He gets his put backs and alley oops. That's fine.

    Melo we all know can post but it is rarely used. He commands a double team when he's down there so someone is open.

    This team was shooting the ball lights out when Lin had his run. They've cooled off. Lin is being doubled hard off the pick. Offense is difficult to come by. This is the problem playing outside in. Playing inside the paint you can throw stuff up at the basket with your eyes closed and 4-10 will go in.

    So we have options. Keep running the same things and hope our shooters can pick it up, or adjust and go inside more for easier buckets and/or the foul.

    When the shooters pick it back up you can go back to what you like to do. This is really just basic, common sense stuff.

    I really dont see why this team has issues scoring with all the talent it has.

    Maybe its just me. I dont know...

  14. #44
    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    I get it, and I agree. The team does need to play inside-out. If STAT can provide a solid, consistent low post game, then we're a coach away from having a spectacular starting 5.

    He's going to need an array of moves down there tho. He's gonna have to be able to face up and shoot, develop a Dirk/Kobe-esque fallaway jumper, and pose enough of a threat to get those occasional "two-hand" fouls when his man is unsure of what the hell is going on and the help isn't coming. Some sort of push, hook, etc. shot would be invaluable too. We already know he has the athleticism and coordination to get to the rim, but you gotta keep the defense honest with something else as well. Plus when he's 33, he's not gonna be driving and elevating the way he can now.

    He's also gonna have to take care of the ball better, know when to kick it out, re-post, and demand it back.

    He already has a serviceable jumper, it's not out of the realm that he develops a post game you can operate an entire offense around. But it's time sensitive too. If we get another coach, and it's not materializing, what are we going to do with a 30 year old Amar'e, making $19M?

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    Lol... you guy's are soooooo funny!

    Isn't it obvious?

    The answer is we have no LEADERSHIP.

    No savvy veteran RESPECTS D'Antoni. Not his style, not his approach, and definitely not his system & philosophy.

    Sure they'll say the politically correct thing, sure they'll pay lip service, but deep down they don't respect him. Saying that is career suicide since no coach would advocate picking you up except the go-against-the-grain, Rex Ryan/Al Davis types. Maybe a Belichik, who knows how to command respect.

    Yeah vets like Jared Jeffries may respect coach because he's a scrub in the grand scheme of things who actually gets minutes but D'Antoni is clueless on how to earn respect.

    Why do you think savvy vets like Billups bump heads with MDA?

    Why do you think a green PG like Lin does respect MDA?

    Its obvious to me. With alpha-males like Melo & to a degree Stat who is marginalized by Melo, a coach & a floor leader PG (maybe B Diddy) is needed to keep them in check.

    That's why not every coach can deal with stars. They don't know how to form a synergy where its team 1st. They don't have the psychological skills to reel these stars in and get the most out of them.

    Yeah MDA's PG friendly system might be sought after by guards, but it's obvious No real star not a PG wants to be a part of this.

    Our results reflect our coaches inability. We are as inconsistent as he is. What real championship or playoff perrenial coach would NOT discipline his players for looking so lax on D?

    You think these alphs-males like Melo don't know the deal? After being coached by a George Carl & Boeheim, really?

    MDA lacks accountability, so does his team.

    MDA lacks defensive awareness, consistency, and game planning, so does his team.

    MDA doesn't motivate stars, look at Stat & Melo.

    MDA has no real credentials nor psychological skills to get players to buy in. He in no way can convince savvy vets he knows what he's doing. Lins of the world yes, but not real stars, they know better.

    We need a leader(s). A coaching leader & a PG floor general who won't fade under pressure and can keep players like Stat & Melo equally satisfied yet in check. MDA doesn't fit that mold.

    Move on.

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