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Thread: Locker Room has no respect for Mike D'Antoni, Mike trying to use Melo as scapegoat

  1. #16
    Veteran mafra's Avatar
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    Good post Knuckles.

    DEN also got waxed in the first round. The regular season & post season are two different games. Through the grind of 82 games, playing across USA, here and there & day or night; spunky teams w/ energy that buy into a coach's system will overachieve. Only a few stars (Kobe) have the pride to bring their A+ game (and play hard through injuries), so NATURALLY when you play a teans sans major stars, on a Sun afternoon, or Tuesday night, on the road, you let your guard down.

    These are NBA players. Give them a window, some confidence, and away they go.

    HOWEVER, once you get into the playoffs, that all flies out the window. Spunky gets you nowhere. The better teams wins in a 7-game series. If you don't have a superstar to get you buckets down the stretch in crunch time... You in trouble.

    Our team w/out Carmelo would win NOTHING. Not w/ MIA & CHI in the East. MAYBE, over the course of 2-5 seasons... We could've won a series. But never would we do much of anything, let alone compete for an NBA title.

    Felton? Dude went south quickly in NY. ALmost as quickly as Duhon. By Feb last eyar, his play grew worse & worse. Not to mention, while in CHA, ORL or ATL ran circles around in in the playoffs. DEN traded him, & he was recently benched in POR. If we had Felton, we would never had given LIN a shot, & w/out Carmelo we probably don't sign B Davis.

    I would take Lin & Davis over Felton.

    Let's also remember, if we don't make this trade we don't have C Billups. If we didn't have the ability to cut CB, we don't have the cap space to add Tyson Chandler. Maybe if he's in NY, we resign Wilson & he stays away from China. I doubt it, he probably still is looking for his cash.

    Still, let's just say that I prefer Tyson Chandler over Wilson Chandler.

    Are we really hyping T Mozgov? Is he a starting center in the NBA? A promising prospect? Is he a career grinder, like Foster of Nazir Muhammed? MOZ was a case of "well, we really should draw the line somewhere in the deal so we should not throw in this final piece, but then again are we really gonna let this guy block the deal to get a HOF player" ... Tough call. If we had the MOZ, we probably don't draft Josh Harrellson. We probably don't bring back Jared Jeffries? Who knows. We probably even have to overpay for a compliment C, like Kwame Brown or something.

    Anyway, let's call this a draw. I think Knicks are happy they have TC starting at center instead of Mozgov though. Sure, I prefer Mozgov over Jeffries or Harrellson.

    Corey Brewer & Anthony Randolph? Let's not even go there. Neither was a D'anotni player. Both would have walked anyway last Summer.

    The meat of the deal comes down to Danillo Gallinari or Carmelo Anthony. And don't cop out & say that you would take Danillo plus the other guys over just Carmelo. The truth is exaclty the opposite.

    I would take Tyson Chandler, Jeremy Lin, Baron Davis, Josh Harrellson, Jared Jeffries over Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Mozgov, Randolph & Brewer.

    I honestly felt that to be truly all-in for an NBA title this season, we needed to find a way to get Carmelo, while holding on to both Amar'e & Gallo. Gallinari would have been the perfect 6th man. He would close out games. He would be our H-Turkoglu. A point fwd and deep threat shooter.

    In a perfect world, Carmelo goes to free agency, and we have both. But Knicks have no luck, and it happened that we had to contend w/ the lockout mess. If there was no impending work stoppage, does Melo not call out bluff? Does he let it known through back channels that he'll wait?

    Again, I refer to what I just said... I would still prefer Tyson Chandler, Lin, Davis and that over having even Felton, Wilson & Gallo.

    Guess who is injured again this year? THAT's right, the young kid Gallo. Always hurt. Gallo is also not a Center. Lebron and MIA would eat him alive on offense in the playoffs.

    So, let's stop talking about this trade, & how bad it was for us or how good we were before the deal. We were still a .500 team at the time, and only b/c of a fluke 14-1 run or something, were we even in the picture of respectability.

    This isn't to say I love Carmelo. I'm 50/50 on him. I approved of the deal, even though I hated that Dolan balked and gave in too early. It still was a necessary trade.

    I also admit that Carmelo shoulders the burden here. Had he waited & signed w/ us, there would have been an out here... I would give him a pass. BUt, since he pushed for the deal, he is under the pressure here. I wanted to get here, at any cost, feeling that he was good enough. If he made us sacrifice some depth or role players, then he must carry the burden.

    Win or he's a failure.

    What if we didn't make the deal though? Wilson is in China, Gallo is hurt, Mozogv in & out of lineup b/c of injuries, Felton flopping. Are we better? Maybe we are the same, like we would have been last year (either squad gets swept by BOS). BUt w/out Melo, Davis, Tyson... would we have any shot in the first round against CHI or MIA?

  2. #17
    Member BachaCho's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lookgrabpull
    I'm not saying we should trade melo. All I'm sayin is that this situation is poisonous. Because this trio of Melo-Amare-Dantoni is not working on AND off court. This is bad for the entire team, and if management doesn't want to change anything, than we are ****ed.
    Fire Dantoni and bring a new coach that would sort this mess out = great.
    Trade Amare to unclog the post and provide more defense and hustle - and melo will become the superstar that we know he is = great.

    But to leave it as it is will kill us, and Melo and Amare's frustration will destroy whatever basketball coaching abilities our bullheaded coach has.

    Management has to intervene.
    Any decent coach would utilize Stat and Melo to their full strengths not camp Melo at the 3 line where he has never done that before thats not his game... If we were to fire D antoni and get Phil Jackson today we would win more games and go further in the playoffs even if the players know 2 plays from Phil Jackson man its so obvious its the coach you dont go from being called top 5-10 player in the league for years to a slumping star it doesnt work like that

  3. #18
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    Best article so far is from Broussard.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    This is the part I found most interesting.

    Management, the coaching staff and the players know Anthony is hurting the offense and in turn, the defensive morale, according to the sources. While D'Antoni's offense calls for Anthony to plant himself on the wing at the 3-point line, he often creeps in to his favorite spot in the floor -- the area between the elbow, the arc and the post. That kills the Knicks' ability to run the high pick-and-roll and ruins the spacing that is so critical to D'Antoni's offense.
    "That's at the very core of our problem," one person close to the situation said. "That messes up the fluidity of the offense. Melo could do it, but he's got to trust the offense."
    When Anthony first returned -- and it still appears to be the case -- Lin would bring the ball upcourt and try to run D'Antoni's system. When Anthony would abandon the offense, Lin would not pass him the ball, which irritated Anthony, sources said. So when Lin tried to talk to Anthony on the court, Anthony would turn his back to the point guard and tune him out. The two never had heated exchanges, though, and the players tried to come to a compromise, agreeing to run D'Antoni's system while also mixing in post-ups for Anthony.
    "But it's just a mess because D'Antoni's system is not designed for that," one source said.
    Despite his often poor body language, many of the players believe Anthony is trying to adjust and sincerely wants to win. He has told people close to him that he is being asked to do things he's never done, saying that throughout his career he has always had plenty of post-up opportunities and that he is uncomfortable standing on the wing spacing the floor.
    "Half the team is trying to do what coach says and the other half is doing something different," one source said. "Then it spills over to the defensive end because players are (ticked) off about somebody taking a bad shot."
    With Anthony sapping the energy from the offense, the players often lose their incentive to play defense. But even when he's trying to play defense, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] struggles. Having spent almost his entire career in D'Antoni's non-defensive system, Stoudemire has trouble making defensive reads and rotations. Anthony knows what to do defensively, but simply refuses to do it consistently, the sources said.
    Some players believe D'Antoni had the leverage to force Anthony to adjust to his system when he first returned from injury. The Knicks were rolling, showing they could win without Anthony, and their fan base was believing in D'Antoni's system. If D'Antoni had checked Anthony, perhaps even benching him, when he strayed from the offense, the players and fans would have been behind the coach and Anthony would have had no choice but to conform. But D'Antoni, ever the one to avoid confrontation with his players, would not do it, and now it's too late. That's when he lost the locker room for good.
    Now, the players believe they need a coach who will hold players, especially the stars like Anthony and Stoudemire, accountable, the sources said. They do not believe D'Antoni is willing or able to do it.
    On top of that, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], who just returned from a back injury, is unhappy with his limited role as Lin's backup. Davis, averaging just 17 minutes a game, has already spoken to D'Antoni about giving him more playing time, according to the sources. While Lin wants to run D'Antoni's system, Davis is more in line with running the offense through Anthony and Stoudemire, the sources said.
    "The only way this is going to work is if we have a coach that will hold Melo accountable and teach Melo, Amare and Jeremy how to play winning basketball," a source said.

  4. #19
    Veteran mafra's Avatar
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    What about this part:


    "It is lost on no one that the Knicks' free-fall coincides precisely with the return of Anthony. While Anthony was out with a groin injury, the Knicks won 6 of 7 games, including victories over the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and defending champion [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. With Lin leading D'Antoni's offense, the Knicks played fast and free, spacing the floor, hitting the open man, and even improving defensively.
    But the day Anthony returned, the Knicks lost to the struggling [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], starting a sorry stretch that has washed away all the feel-good emotions of Lin's emergence and left them on the verge of missing the playoffs."

  5. #20
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    Originally Posted by mafra
    What about this part:


    "It is lost on no one that the Knicks' free-fall coincides precisely with the return of Anthony. While Anthony was out with a groin injury, the Knicks won 6 of 7 games, including victories over the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and defending champion [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. With Lin leading D'Antoni's offense, the Knicks played fast and free, spacing the floor, hitting the open man, and even improving defensively.
    But the day Anthony returned, the Knicks lost to the struggling [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], starting a sorry stretch that has washed away all the feel-good emotions of Lin's emergence and left them on the verge of missing the playoffs."

    Melo is the scapegoat!!! Mike is right

  6. #21
    Veteran mafra's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Den318
    Melo is the scapegoat!!! Mike is right
    Knicks are 11-20 with Carmelo in the lineup this season, inlcuding a 1-6 stretch of games & a 2-8 stretch, highlighted by a 6-game losing streak (7-4 w/out him).

    They were 14-17 with him in the lineup last season, including a 1-9 stretch highlighted by a 6-game losing streak (28-27 w/out him).

    I realize Carmelo is a great offensive player. OUr best player since Ewing-Spree-Houston era. Still, NYK are a combined 25-37 with Anthony in the lineup as a Knick. Not exactly what I was counting on when we made the deal.

    Or this part:


    "Half the team is trying to do what coach says and the other half is doing something different," one source said. "Then it spills over to the defensive end because players are (ticked) off about somebody taking a bad shot."


    With Anthony sapping the energy from the offense, the players often lose their incentive to play defense. But even when he's trying to play defense, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] struggles. Having spent almost his entire career in D'Antoni's non-defensive system, Stoudemire has trouble making defensive reads and rotations. Anthony knows what to do defensively, but simply refuses to do it consistently, the sources said.


    Some players believe D'Antoni had the leverage to force Anthony to adjust to his system when he first returned from injury. The Knicks were rolling, showing they could win without Anthony, and their fan base was believing in D'Antoni's system. If D'Antoni had checked Anthony, perhaps even benching him, when he strayed from the offense, the players and fans would have been behind the coach and Anthony would have had no choice but to conform. But D'Antoni, ever the one to avoid confrontation with his players, would not do it, and now it's too late. That's when he lost the locker room for good.


    Now, the players believe they need a coach who will hold players, especially the stars like Anthony and Stoudemire, accountable, the sources said. They do not believe D'Antoni is willing or able to do it.


    On top of that, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], who just returned from a back injury, is unhappy with his limited role as Lin's backup. Davis, averaging just 17 minutes a game, has already spoken to D'Antoni about giving him more playing time, according to the sources. While Lin wants to run D'Antoni's system, Davis is more in line with running the offense through Anthony and Stoudemire, the sources said.
    "The only way this is going to work is if we have a coach that will hold Melo accountable and teach Melo, Amare and Jeremy how to play winning basketball," a source said.

    ----------------

  7. #22
    Superstar NicksKnicks's Avatar
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    Get rid of Mike and Melo. Id say trade Melo and Chandler for Howard but Chandler is the only legit winner on this team. Hes our leader and he inspires guys such as Lin, Fields and Novak. Melo doesnt do anything to make anyone better. As seen in the articles above, hes a square peg in a round hole within our offense.

  8. #23
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    Originally Posted by mafra
    What about this part:


    "It is lost on no one that the Knicks' free-fall coincides precisely with the return of Anthony. While Anthony was out with a groin injury, the Knicks won 6 of 7 games, including victories over the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and defending champion [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. With Lin leading D'Antoni's offense, the Knicks played fast and free, spacing the floor, hitting the open man, and even improving defensively.
    But the day Anthony returned, the Knicks lost to the struggling [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], starting a sorry stretch that has washed away all the feel-good emotions of Lin's emergence and left them on the verge of missing the playoffs."
    So...seems like there is a simple solution:

    Players buy into that winning system, and play like professionally paid NBA'ers, and don't act like punks to their teammates and the city they play for.

    And is this some grand surprise that it is Anthony here, the same guy who couldn't even maintain a decent relationship with DEN and Karl?

    If the system/coach doesn't win, then the coach goes.

    But when a player acts like an unprofessional bitch like Anthony? You ship them out. Anthony isn't even playing well. A la Deron Williams and Sloan, and Sloan still had Deron shipped out bc he was being a bit defiant about the style of the team.

    edit -- if there is a problem w/ D'antoni in this equation...it is that he has simply been to generous with Melo, and has believed in him too much and afforded him too many chances. He could have left Melo out to dry, entirely. Which would have entirely destroyed the relationship with Melo and this city and franchise, and left our franchise in an even more awkward, ****ty place.

  9. #24
    Veteran nyk_nyk's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by kinein
    They aren't trying to trade Melo.

    Whose in charge?



    "He said he's not trading anyone," said the source, with direct contact with Dolan. "He said it's up to the coach to figure it out."

    Via Frank Isola/New York Daily News


    Read more: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


    * Talks about Melo trade are just fantasy talk. No point in discussing this seriously.
    This tells me that Dolan believes more in the players than the coach. On the other hand it also tells me that he needs to keep Melo around to help justify the high ticket prices. Still, the fact that he used the words "figure it out" means he thinks its the coach's job to do so.

    Antoni will not be here next season anyway, so Dolan doesn't need to make a quick decision and sign off on a trade all because a coach who won't be here couldn't make things fit.

  10. #25
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    The coach and Melo isn't going to work....so knowing both of their track records who do you keep and who do you let go?

    The answer here will be very telling, in the least it will expose who knows a thing or two about being a winner.... or being a loser.

  11. #26
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    Default Melo

    Mafra and nuckles2k2 each make sensible observations. Melo's "strengths" are not maximized in D'Antoni's offensive system. But I am not particularly excited about Melo's ISO offense. And his defense has never been acceptable.

    I am not a real fan of D'Antoni and his system. But who is out there besides Phil Jackson that is likely to make a difference? If we abandon the D'Antoni system, which appears to lessen a small forward's or a power forward's touches, what will we have? A series of Melo ISO plays?

    I watched Kobe recently. He dominates the ball, but he does it which much more movement than Melo and he plays defense.

    I do not see a trade of Melo this season. I expect we will have D'Antoni through the season, but not thereafter. If D'Antoni gets a new contract, I would expect Melo to be dealt


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