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Thread: Carmelo and Amar'e Can Work

  1. #1
    Scoring Champ CA7's Avatar
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    Default Carmelo and Amar'e Can Work

    I'm sick of hearing that these 2 Elite players cant work, it can work and here's why

    Last Year together they averaged

    Anthony- 26.3ppg and 6rpg(25 and 10 in the playoffs)
    Stoudemire- 23.5ppg and 8rpg(injured most of series)

    We had 2 stars who dominated offensively with Billups as a consistent 3rd option but we lacked interior defense, perimeter defense, consistent 3 point shooter, consistent 6th man and consistent coaching

    Anthony/Stoudemire/Billups

    Jeffries/Turiaf/Fields/Walker/Williams/Douglas

    That team was horribly constructed with no true identity and ability to contend because we lacked depth

    Chauncey Billups was the perfect point guard because he could get both Stoudemire and Anthony involved as well create for others, instead of just throwing the ball into Melo for an ISO, he directed the players where to go on the floor to create the right spacing for Melo to operate. When it was time to run the pick n roll with STAT, he directed Melo to the correct spot so when STAT rolled if Melo's guy helped he could get an open 3 which is why Melo shot 42% from 3, he was benefiting from STAT tearing teams up in the middle as well as STAT's FG% going up because Melo being there made teams double STAT less and Melo more

    The Knicks problems last year lied within the role players, no Shumpert, no Chandler, no Novak, no Smith, no Harrellson

    if the team was constructed this way

    Billups/Lin/Douglas
    Shumpert/Smith
    Anthony/Novak/Fields
    Stoudemire/Jeffries
    Chandler/Harrellson/Jordan

    more complete team, a true leader on offense in Billups and on defense in Chandler, 2 legit go to scorers in STAT and Melo with Billups setting up for both, a great perimeter defender in Shumpert, Jeffries a very versatile defender, Harrellson is a solid rebounder and can hit the jump shot, Fields thrives on the 2nd unit led by Lin/STAT/Novak, Novak is good for 2 3's a game and JR Smith is instant offense off the bench

    This year from the start we lacked a PG who can make it work for both, Billups did but the Knicks lost because we lacked role players around our main guys. If we decline Billups option he still gets 4mil, we sign Chandler for the same deal, we re-sign Billups who has bird rights, still draft Shumpert and Harrellson, bring over Jordan, pick up Lin and Novak, fire D'Antoni anyway and add Woodson from the start then we are a more complete team with leaders on and off the court.

    At the end of the day we need a point guard like Billups who changed Melo's whole game and made him a better team player, he's also a great leader who took over the locker room from jump street

    Who can fill that void I'm not sure I'd love to make a play for one of these guys(in particular order)

    Stephen Curry
    Eric Maynor
    Deron Williams
    Steve Nash

    all guys I feel can provide that true PG, versatile feel for our team. The one I really like is Eric Maynor, he's rotting behind Westbrook, well he's been hurt but nonetheless Westbrook got benched 1 game for Maynor who is more of a true PG his Ast/To ratio is 3-1 which is phenomenal and he has great size, strength and quickness and he demands the ball and controls pace

    so there you have it, it took me a while to analyze why they both had great numbers together last year and what was the problem this year and thats it a true leader at Point Guard

    so stop with the trade STAT, trade Melo, STAT and Melo are over paid and over hyped because every NBA player is over paid and over hyped if you wanna get technical.

    if you wanna figure out a solution to this team find a point guard who can do what Chauncey Billups does and the Knicks will be in great shape to contend going forward

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    Of course, they can work together. They did that during one win against Miami. The question is whether they always will.

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    Scoring Champ CA7's Avatar
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    I wish you read what I wrote before you replied, I just like in depth answers rather than this open-ended responses which ruin conversation

    but yeah they can and will we just need that missing piece

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    I'm sorry. I am not quarreling with you. I don't think I have ruined anything as there is no conversation going on here.

    I said the two can work together if they want to. I just don't think it is that complicated. It is a matter of of wanting it. Other considerations fall by the wayside because will is everything.

    Goodluck on finding that 'deep answers'.

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    I know how youre trying to make this team work with the current roster. But don't you think it's pathetic to pay 2 max contracts @40 mils/year and need a specialized PG to make them play together?

    You can throw names but some are unrealistic:

    Stephen Curry- under contract w/ Warriors and Knicks have nothing to offer in trade.

    Eric Maynor- under contract OKC, why would they trade when they are perfectly fit to make chip runs? And who can we offer to make OKC a better team than they are now? (a trade is generally benefitial to both teams)

    Deron Williams- We dont have 18 millions in cap space to sign him.

    Nash- Can't sign him without giving up on Lin. He is worth at least 5-7 millions and Mavs or Nets (if Deron opt-out) will offer him at least that. Totally delusional if fans think Nash will take vets min.

    If Dolan wants to keep Lin, he is gonna have to fight for him. If Deron opt outs his contract, I see his arch and cross-town rival Prokhorov offer him 4-year 36 millions just to make Dolan pay a hefty punitive luxury tax 3 years from now.

    Lets face it. Knicks' window is 3 years! If they arent a chip contender now, they will not be a contender for the next 6-7 years. There are owners who want to win championships, and there are owners who only care about money. We all know who they are....

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    Scoring Champ CA7's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Cuckoo
    I know how youre trying to make this team work with the current roster. But don't you think it's pathetic to pay 2 max contracts @40 mils/year and need a specialized PG to make them play together?

    You can throw names but some are unrealistic:

    Stephen Curry- under contract w/ Warriors and Knicks have nothing to offer in trade.

    Eric Maynor- under contract OKC, why would they trade when they are perfectly fit to make chip runs? And who can we offer to make OKC a better team than they are now? (a trade is generally benefitial to both teams)

    Deron Williams- We dont have 18 millions in cap space to sign him.

    Nash- Can't sign him without giving up on Lin. He is worth at least 5-7 millions and Mavs or Nets (if Deron opt-out) will offer him at least that. Totally delusional if fans think Nash will take vets min.

    If Dolan wants to keep Lin, he is gonna have to fight for him. If Deron opt outs his contract, I see his arch and cross-town rival Prokhorov offer him 4-year 36 millions just to make Dolan pay a hefty punitive luxury tax 3 years from now.

    Lets face it. Knicks' window is 3 years! If they arent a chip contender now, they will not be a contender for the next 6-7 years. There are owners who want to win championships, and there are owners who only care about money. We all know who they are....

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    you gotta work with the cap

    we wont trade Lin because of Dolan but I bet Golden State would want him back, they also have interest in Fields. Lin+Fields+Future Pick for Curry+Wright, but again not likely to happen but Curry can both run the pick n roll with STAT and the play off of Melo as well as direct the offense and get the spacing correct.

    Our core is fine we just need Dolan to back the hell out of the way and let our GM and coach build the team, our window is 6-7 years without a doubt, we'll get 1 ring before Melo's done I know it, we just have to be smart about who we pay

    The difference between us and OKC and Miami is that they are being treated as basketball teams, while we're being used as a cash cow from an ownership stand point

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    made this same about a month ago ago when ESPN started spewing their garbage smh.

    Glad to see other posters agree with me. Some of the same Valid points

    With a viable pg helping run the show well be fine

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    I kept saying we didn't have a true leader at PG, while Lin's play making ability is good he doesn't possess the leadership and understanding off floor spacing to get everyone operating on the same level. When he sets up a Melo iso the spacing is poor, when STAT or Chandler runs their pick n roll Melo is on the weak side when he should be on the strong side so they cant double giving us 3 options

    Also to the guy who said what can we offer OKC, they really need a back up 3 and have Reggie Jackson who they drafted in the 1st Round, Maynor for Fields works for both teams though I think they just sign Jeff Green back since he loved it there and him and KD are tight

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    If you think Lin doesn’t have the ability to lead a team, maybe you need to look closely at who is in the lineup. His leadership was impeccable during Linsanity--everyone played better, even turned a scrub into the most dangerous offensive weapon in the league.

    As long as the topic involves Melo, like many people here, I will sidestep out of your way…because most of your opinions defy logic.

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    Originally Posted by Cuckoo
    If you think Lin doesn’t have the ability to lead a team, maybe you need to look closely at who is in the lineup. His leadership was impeccable during Linsanity--everyone played better, even turned a scrub into the most dangerous offensive weapon in the league.

    As long as the topic involves Melo, like many people here, I will sidestep out of your way…because most of your opinions defy logic.
    I cant help but laugh at the fact that you people dont see why the Knicks went on that winning streak you've dubbed "Linsanity"

    Nets, Jazz(swept), Wizards, Lakers(currently tied 3-3), Wolves, Raptors, Kings, Hornets and Mavs(swept)

    3 playoff teams, 2 who were swept and another about to play in a game 7

    also Lin had 6+ TO's in 7 of those games, also that game winner against Toronto would not have happened if Shumpert didn't take Calderon and the defense led the team back in the 4th. Also Tyson and Shumpert took over the team during that span, especially defensively, Novak was always a great shooter dont say Lin made him better, if he's open and he gets the ball its going down, so kill that noise

    As for Melo I like how people said when he came back we go on a losing streak and he gets D'Antoni fired but who did we play in those 6 games

    Celtics, Mavs, Spurs, Bucks, Sixers and Bulls- blame Melo yeah yeah yeah

    anyway

    Lin has 8 weeks of NBA production I am not christening him the next great PG, I need to see more, I know how well STAT and Melo played with a proven vet PG running the show and not just passing it to his hand shake buddy.

    We were bad last year without the defensive role players we had this year in Shumpert and Chandler but then we lacked a true floor general. Felton was a borderline all-star playing in D'Antoni's system and now look at him thats just my point can Lin run a half-court oriented offense, get players in the right spots to get our 2 main scorers good shots and keep them both in rhythm, CAN HE DO THAT?????????

    I dont know, so stop thinking I'm ****tin on Lin he's unproven and just like most situations the New York media is blowing up any player who scores 30 as the next big thing because we've sucked so long that want instant benefits and super stardom, it doesn't work like that, Lin is good but guys like Paul, Williams and Rose are great, dont forget that

  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by Cuckoo
    If you think Lin doesn’t have the ability to lead a team, maybe you need to look closely at who is in the lineup. His leadership was impeccable during Linsanity--everyone played better, even turned a scrub into the most dangerous offensive weapon in the league.

    As long as the topic involves Melo, like many people here, I will sidestep out of your way…because most of your opinions defy logic.
    what player are you talking about

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    Originally Posted by CA7
    what player are you talking about
    I meant to say in the team instead of in the league.

    So you would rather have Maynor, a career second team, 15 min, 4.5 ppg, 3.1 apg, to lead the starters in Knicks and gell Stat and Melo?? Okeydokey......I am sold. No further debate necessary.

    Why dont you look up at Febuary PPG for the following players:
    - T Chandler
    - J Jeffries
    - S Novak
    - Fields

    They all had the best month PPG in Feb. Like I said, you defy logic and end of my reply in this thread.

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    Originally Posted by Cuckoo
    I meant to say in the team instead of in the league.

    So you would rather have Maynor, a career second team, 15 min, 4.5 ppg, 3.1 apg, to lead the starters in Knicks and gell Stat and Melo?? Okeydokey......I am sold. No further debate necessary.

    Why dont you look up at Febuary PPG for the following players:
    - T Chandler
    - J Jeffries
    - S Novak
    - Fields

    They all had the best month PPG in Feb. Like I said, you defy logic and end of my reply in this thread.
    I said Eric Maynor is an example of a player who fits the mold of what I'm looking for in a PG, I love his game, he's just behind a top 5 PG in the league and a lot agree with me that he is better than most give him credit for. Also the 4 you mentioned should have averaged more points because they got more shots with STAT and Melo being out with injuries. Who's to say if STAT and Melo were there we would not have not still won those games, the point is we hit a weak stretch vs sub .500 teams and got victories yet Lin got all the credit, I want him to be great but I'm not over hyping like everyone else

    Eric Maynor has a 3-1 assist to turnover ratio in 15mpg, so in 35mpg, you'll get about 10pts, 7ast and 2to's- at the end of the day he takes care of the ball which is one of Lin's problems, he cant handle pressure and he isn't a strong defender, evidence???- Jose Calderon bust his ass but nonetheless he has room for improvement but we need to figure out who's the long term solution at point

    Again this has nothing to do with Melo so you kill that noise, it has everything to do with the Knicks becoming a better team

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    When I hear about moving either Melo or STAT because they don't work together I think of...

    1. The same excuses many used for why MDA's bunch wasn't working should be extended to this group. The haven't had ample time to get completely familiar with each other.

    2. We need a PG as bad as we needed a big. This PG cannot be one of the "potential" variety, meaning he should be of the veteran variety. This is a team on offense without a facilitator. With a facilitator taking control of the O, our stars (who may have to sacrifice their games) will have direction and discipline. But acquiring this guard is next to impossible unless we find one willing to take less money- thats a long shot. They need a PG.

    3. It seems like the media likes to add pressure to divide and conquer. We saw it with MIA. The media portrays high expectations devoid of taking into consideration the relative circumstances, as if new teammates should be thrown right in, take the court and dominate. This rarely happens. It takes time. Time to develop chemistry and that chemistry is furthered when a viable PG (ala Biilups or Kidd or Nash or Rondo-like) molds the offensive identity. Getting players to their spots, getting them the ball where they like it, and feeding the hot hands as a matter of priority. This as well as the ability to exploit options or make decisions so that STAT & Melo don't have to as much is paramount. This establishes the priorities, order of contingencies, and provides an order of operations to build on throughout. That way when the playoffs arrive, there are established steps to fall back on during difficult stretches.

    4. What about the games where they both put up decent numbers? As few and far between as this may be, given the injury and timing circumstances along with the missing facilitator, STAT and Melo have put up good numbers as recently as game 4 of the Playoffs. And that was within a different system than the one the began with. Sure similar but not totally using the same approach as the former coach.

    5. The real question is can they coexist on defense? STAT has poor fundamentals, Melo is streaky. Both want to avoid unnecessary fouls because they believe they are stars, which places priority on staying on the court, thus limiting their defensive intensity. I feel that with a facilitator and a bench, the need for the scoring to go through them all the time is reduced.
    But the team and those two need to be reconditioned to believe that IF they are going to be leaders they must do it at both ends, and that we can score with or without them due to a good enough PG who can run the show. A defensive oriented PG (or SG) also reduces their likelihood of drawing too many fouls.

    In conclusion, I think working together is relative. Give them a respectable PG, change their perceptions of their roles to emphasize defense as a priority, ignore outside pressure, and give it time and they could work. As limited as their body of work together is, we can point to times when they both produced.

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    Originally Posted by Red
    When I hear about moving either Melo or STAT because they don't work together I think of...

    1. The same excuses many used for why MDA's bunch wasn't working should be extended to this group. The haven't had ample time to get completely familiar with each other.

    2. We need a PG as bad as we needed a big. This PG cannot be one of the "potential" variety, meaning he should be of the veteran variety. This is a team on offense without a facilitator. With a facilitator taking control of the O, our stars (who may have to sacrifice their games) will have direction and discipline. But acquiring this guard is next to impossible unless we find one willing to take less money- thats a long shot. They need a PG.

    3. It seems like the media likes to add pressure to divide and conquer. We saw it with MIA. The media portrays high expectations devoid of taking into consideration the relative circumstances, as if new teammates should be thrown right in, take the court and dominate. This rarely happens. It takes time. Time to develop chemistry and that chemistry is furthered when a viable PG (ala Biilups or Kidd or Nash or Rondo-like) molds the offensive identity. Getting players to their spots, getting them the ball where they like it, and feeding the hot hands as a matter of priority. This as well as the ability to exploit options or make decisions so that STAT & Melo don't have to as much is paramount. This establishes the priorities, order of contingencies, and provides an order of operations to build on throughout. That way when the playoffs arrive, there are established steps to fall back on during difficult stretches.

    4. What about the games where they both put up decent numbers? As few and far between as this may be, given the injury and timing circumstances along with the missing facilitator, STAT and Melo have put up good numbers as recently as game 4 of the Playoffs. And that was within a different system than the one the began with. Sure similar but not totally using the same approach as the former coach.

    5. The real question is can they coexist on defense? STAT has poor fundamentals, Melo is streaky. Both want to avoid unnecessary fouls because they believe they are stars, which places priority on staying on the court, thus limiting their defensive intensity. I feel that with a facilitator and a bench, the need for the scoring to go through them all the time is reduced.
    But the team and those two need to be reconditioned to believe that IF they are going to be leaders they must do it at both ends, and that we can score with or without them due to a good enough PG who can run the show. A defensive oriented PG (or SG) also reduces their likelihood of drawing too many fouls.

    In conclusion, I think working together is relative. Give them a respectable PG, change their perceptions of their roles to emphasize defense as a priority, ignore outside pressure, and give it time and they could work. As limited as their body of work together is, we can point to times when they both produced.
    great read Red, I cant stress how necessary it is to get us a veteran PG who will demand the best out of our entire team, I dont think Lin is ready for that and I'm being honest.

    Chauncey Billups is a free agent who knows if he'd like to come back and start again

    Stephen Curry may be available via trade and I read GSW is interested in bringing back Lin and acquiring Fields(Ideal Scenario)

    Steve Nash of course but he's a defensive liability and we have to deal with great young guards in the East

    Another name I think would be ideal is Devin Harris he possesses speed, quickness, shot making ability, can pass, score and defend and his 3 point shooting is improved.

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