We should be pretty good next year, right??

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
No, we won't be good, and I've outlined reasons for this in many threads.

Carmelo Sucks at Playing Team Ball

He doesn't understand the meaning of 'sacrifice'. That ESPN Face Off asked the wrong question, it should have been "how would you define Sacrifice?".

The answer would have been telling.

Woodson Sucks as a Coach

Dump the ball to Melo and to hell with it. Yea, it'll win you some games over a droopy season but he'll get exposed in the playoffs.

It's funny, we used to say the same thing about D'Antoni, but at least D'Antoni made it within a ****'s hair of the Finals, and had 50 and 60 win seasons every year for almost half a decade.

Mike Woodson averaged 34 wins over 6 years with the Hawks and only managed one 50 win season along with suffering a pair of magnificently violent beatings in the playoffs.

Jeremy Lin: Stunted and Blunted

Under D'Antoni, Jeremy Lin would have been the boss on the floor, orchestrating at his uninhibited will. But now the mindless focus on centering Melo will impede Lin's development.

Look for Lin to find a real team when he's 29 or 30, like Steve Nash. Then we will have Linsanity again.

You're entitled to your opinion, and i respect where your coming from, but this team has pretty good collection of players. 4 out or 5 of our starters is of a high caliber. The only question is Shumpert, him being injured and being a second yr player and all. If we get guys back healthy and fortify our bench we should be alright.

I totally agree with you on Woodson. I'll get behind the team and root for his success, but the weaknesses are there. I won't stoop to hating as many did in the case of D'Ant. Make no mistake though we have a flawed coach.
 

Crazy⑧s

Evacuee
Crazy⑧s;237344 said:
Agreed! Plenty of promise for us. We'll be very dependent on the health of our frontline - STAT, Tyson, Melo, frankly because we need at least half a season to formulate some continuity and the cognitive plays required to optimize the 3 offensively.

Shump is a concern for me. Yes, he's young, but he's proven to be rather weak below the thigh as we all know.

Lin's contract's structure plays in to our favor as far as he alone is concerned. I'm fully convinced that Colan will pay the 2nd tier luxury tax once it's implemented. On the flip-side of that situation however, the league holds our nuts in its hand as far as the ruling for or against players being picked up off of waivers goes in our favor.

That's massive for us.




I think, albeit an assumption, Odom's yet another player using the NY media to keep himself at the forefront of GM's minds whilst out of work.



Fields has proven he's no more than a 7-8 spot bench player. I'm frustrated as **** with him. We'll only get the best out of him with a facilitating bench PG that likes to run. I'd really like to see us bring in a 2nd unit that runs, BTW, and we need a reliable backup to Chandler to throw in to that mix. Jorts has proven he has the mind to do so, but not the body.

I'd love to keep Novak, but he tends to only play best when other legitimate threats are on the floor, again adding to the mounting pressure of this facking league ruling, and also adding to the import of building a dependable second unit, starting at the 1. Extending Douglas' $2M contract was a spaz move, seriously, and we could have let him walk and add someone who can see peripherally.




I don't see us adding Odom, as I said, and am a little concerned about Jorts fitness, but you're right. He is a heady player and an offensive threat in a well spaced offense. His defense is surprising as you wouldn't expect someone as lumbering as him to move well laterally. That timing is indicative of his defensive IQ, the end where we'll need him the most.

How much does Jefferies have left in the tank?




Unfortunately, we may not have a choice in the matter. The league allegedly froze an envelope for us to help sway the future of the NBA toward one of the bigger markets in 1985. Will they help us out again this off-season?



I think the only disparity, excluding Barkely who's a freak, between the players you mentioned is Melo's weight. I can't claim to know too much about it, but I think some upper body strength and 5 KGs off will help him absolutely. He's bottom heavy and exploits it, I think some added muscle up top will help him with his somewhat limited explosiveness.



86 points out of our starting line up would be very nice!!! 20 off the bench and we'd be doing extremely well. Under Woody, however, and the fact that we're less of a running team than the Hawks were, I think stopping opponents will take preference over all other strategies.

Woody still has a lot of offensive trials ahead for the coming season. I wonder if he'll tweak his supporting cast to help get it done? As far as I know Darrell Walker is no offensive expert.






Absolutely. He made it abundantly clear in his speech at Chandler's DPOY award ceremony that defense will be the M.O, and Chandler will be the anchor of that.

Offensively, I think we all know what's required across the board, and it's encouraging to see that STAT and TC will be under Olajuwon's tutelage in the offseason. Melo will be playing team ball with USA, Lin is off to compete as a member of the select squad taking on the Olympians, Shump can only rest.

Thus far, they're the only guaranteed Knicks, IMO, for a season that is so, so f'ing far away!

Well, that's 3 times in a row now. **** replying to Ron from now on.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
Crazy⑧s;237516 said:
Well, that's 3 times in a row now. **** replying to Ron from now on.

Lolz.. Don't take my lack of reply for a lack of love or respect Crazy.

Your reply post was comprehensive and informative. I thought you either added to or clarified my original post, which was spot -on.

I had nothing to add to or rebutt really.

I should've atleast said something. You took time to put together a nice post. You're right.

Apologies for my asshattery/laziness.
 
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MeloforMayor

BALL DON'T LIE
Good news, my *****s

http://www.zagsblog.com/2012/05/30/stern-believes-league-will-win-knicks-bird-rights-hearing/

NEW YORK ? To the surprise of virtually no one, NBA Commissioner David Stern believes the league will win the Bird Rights arbitration hearing regarding Knicks Jeremy Lin and Steve Novak on June 13.

?We believe that the position that we are espousing here is the one that the contract says is the one and that the arbitrator will confirm,? Stern said Wednesday in New York. ?And whatever the outcome, it won?t affect the rivalry between the Knicks and the Nets.?

The hearing will determine if the Knicks hold the Bird Rights to Lin and Novak, both of whom were claimed off waivers.

The union is arguing waived players should retain their rights, but the league is stating a player?s clock should be ?reset? once he?s acquired through waivers.

If the union ? and thus the Knicks ? win they could re-sign both players while still maintaining their mid-level exception of $5 million for a point guard like Steve Nash, Raymond Felton or Jameer Nelson.

?We?re interested bystanders, let?s say,? Knicks GM Glen Grunwald said of the hearing. ?Obviously it will impact some things that will provide us a couple more options in terms of trying to improve our team but it?s still the same basic deal.?

Asked if he thought the union had a good chance to win the case, Grunwald said: ?I don?t really have an opinion on it although I am a recovering lawyer. I don?t really think that it?s my position to make a comment on the merits of the case.?
 

NYNYK

Benchwarmer
i say we wait till next season before we pass judgement on anybody and that includes melo, stat, lin, and woodson. This whole season has been a cluster**** with the lockout, injuries, etc and last season was as well esp with melo getting traded in the middle of the season.

We sign lin with MLE bc we def not getting bird rights and we hope that Novak signs and maybe even JR. If JR decides he's better than getting paid 2.5 mill we look for a consistent shooter who can also cut. Also, we offer douglas/jordan or even sign and trade jeffries/douglas (would hurt to lose him) to see if we can get a good back up pg bc b diddy was a fiasco and bibby brings nothing to the table. Worst comes to worst, we sign AI or maybe starbury to come off the bench for vet minimum. If either of them start crying that they should be starters we cut them and let someone else pick up that drama.
We may have to sign landry fields esp bc he developed a good relationship with lin and did play well with him.
Develop Jorts during the off season and hope that he can get a good offense defense balance going and be a good back up for stat.
Also, hope shump can come back sooner than expected and be the same defensive force he was this season.

Given all that, and with a solid offseason, I think we can contend with the top 2 teams in the east for an eastern conference title and hopefully a championship. :gony: :gony: go
 

finestrg

Rotation player
My lineup for next year

5 - Chandler
4 - STAT
3 - Melo
2 - Kim English (from the draft right into my starting lineup -- reminds me of Aaron Afflalo/poor man's Ray Allen -- good size at 6'6", dead-eye outside shooter and I think people will be pleasantly surprised by his solid, committed defense. Excellent fit)
1 - Lin
------------------------
5 - Marcus Cousin
4 - Josh Harrellson
3 - DaJuan Summers or Jamelle Horne
2 - Chris Douglas-Roberts* (Sylven Landesberg, Jamelle Horne or Scotty Hopson)
1 - Ben Hansbrough or Curtis Jerrells
------------------------
5 - Jerome Jordan (trade bait to move up in the draft)
4 - Jeff Adrien or Wayne Chism
3 - Ryan Wittman
2 - Iman Shumpert (IR longterm - possibly out for the season)
1 - Toney Douglas (trade bait to move up in the draft)

Would need summer league/training camp to sort some stuff out, like who my starting 2 would be (I like English with our starting 5) and primary backup SF, SG (only if I couldn't get CDR -- he wouldn't have to try out to make my team) and PG will be. I would expect some nice training camp competition at a few positions in this scenario: Summers/Horne, Horne/Landesberg/Hopson, Hansbrough/Jerrells, Adrien/Chism.

*CDR is my 1st choice for 6th man/backup 2 but we may not have the money for him -- as a 3-yr NBA player, I think the bidding for his services will start at $885,120, though it might take more than that, both in years and dollars. We first need clarity on the Bird rights issue for Lin & Novak, esp. for Lin. Hypothetically speaking, if we lose the hearing, Lin will get the full MLE & Novak will walk (I expect someone will offer him more than the vet minimum or the bi-annual, off last year's solid season). Best case -- we win the ruling, Lin and Novak are resign using Bird rights and we then use part of the MLE on CDR and DaJuan Summers (who like CDR, may also have logged enough time to be considered a 3-yr NBA player). I can see some competition for CDR's services -- it may take an offer of 3-years/$3.5-4M to get him, which I personally think would be worth it. He would be a very good scoring option off the bench, sliding right into JR Smith's role for less money (I think Smith might be a goner). Summers should come even cheaper than CDR I'm thinking..I think Steve Nash coming here for the full mid-level is pure fantasy.
 
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Crazy⑧s

Evacuee
Lolz.. Don't take my lack of reply for a lack of love or respect Crazy.

Your reply post was comprehensive and informative. I thought you either added to or clarified my original post, which was spot -on.

I had nothing to add to or rebutt really.

I should've atleast said something. You took time to put together a nice post. You're right.

Apologies for my asshattery/laziness.

Not a drama, Rono! Had to get your attention somehow.

Let it be known that I REQUIRE replies from the likes of yourself to quell what's circulating through my mind.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
Crazy⑧s;237637 said:
Not a drama, Rono! Had to get your attention somehow.

Let it be known that I REQUIRE replies from the likes of yourself to quell what's circulating through my mind.

Word.:smokin::peace::gony:
 

Rob Low

Rotation player
5 - Chandler
4 - STAT
3 - Melo
2 - Kim English (from the draft right into my starting lineup -- reminds me of Aaron Afflalo/poor man's Ray Allen -- good size at 6'6", dead-eye outside shooter and I think people will be pleasantly surprised by his solid, committed defense. Excellent fit)
1 - Lin
------------------------
5 - Marcus Cousin
4 - Josh Harrellson
3 - DaJuan Summers or Jamelle Horne
2 - Chris Douglas-Roberts* (Sylven Landesberg, Jamelle Horne or Scotty Hopson)
1 - Ben Hansbrough or Curtis Jerrells
------------------------
5 - Jerome Jordan (trade bait to move up in the draft)
4 - Jeff Adrien or Wayne Chism
3 - Ryan Wittman
2 - Iman Shumpert (IR longterm - possibly out for the season)
1 - Toney Douglas (trade bait to move up in the draft)

Would need summer league/training camp to sort some stuff out, like who my starting 2 would be (I like English with our starting 5) and primary backup SF, SG (only if I couldn't get CDR -- he wouldn't have to try out to make my team) and PG will be. I would expect some nice training camp competition at a few positions in this scenario: Summers/Horne, Horne/Landesberg/Hopson, Hansbrough/Jerrells, Adrien/Chism.

*CDR is my 1st choice for 6th man/backup 2 but we may not have the money for him -- as a 3-yr NBA player, I think the bidding for his services will start at $885,120, though it might take more than that, both in years and dollars. We first need clarity on the Bird rights issue for Lin & Novak, esp. for Lin. Hypothetically speaking, if we lose the hearing, Lin will get the full MLE & Novak will walk (I expect someone will offer him more than the vet minimum or the bi-annual, off last year's solid season). Best case -- we win the ruling, Lin and Novak are resign using Bird rights and we then use part of the MLE on CDR and DaJuan Summers (who like CDR, may also have logged enough time to be considered a 3-yr NBA player). I can see some competition for CDR's services -- it may take an offer of 3-years/$3.5-4M to get him, which I personally think would be worth it. He would be a very good scoring option off the bench, sliding right into JR Smith's role for less money (I think Smith might be a goner). Summers should come even cheaper than CDR I'm thinking..I think Steve Nash coming here for the full mid-level is pure fantasy.

I feel like you're trying to turn this team into a d-league team. Im fine with adding a few out of the league guys but no way are we winning a championship with that many scrubs on the team.
 

tiger0330

Legend
I feel like you're trying to turn this team into a d-league team. Im fine with adding a few out of the league guys but no way are we winning a championship with that many scrubs on the team.
Word, lol at finestrg lineup with Kim English in the starting lineup.
 

finestrg

Rotation player
Word, lol at finestrg lineup with Kim English in the starting lineup.

English's outside shooting balances out that starting 5 PERFECTLY. It's the last element that starting 5 is missing -- a legit long range threat at the 2 spot. A sniper. We'd be better off with CDR coming off the bench in that scenario to lead the 2nd unit attack.
 
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finestrg

Rotation player
I feel like you're trying to turn this team into a d-league team. Im fine with adding a few out of the league guys but no way are we winning a championship with that many scrubs on the team.

When you're looking for a WELL BALANCED TEAM and YOU'RE UP AGAINST THE SALARY CAP this is one of the best and safest ways to fill in the blanks. Welcome to the NBA. I wish they didn't have a damn salary cap, but they do..You look for cheap alternatives, guys with ability that have something to prove, guys with nice potential that we can turn into players, etc. I don't get what's so hard to understand.

LOL at calling these guys 'scrubs' btw. ROFL at that comment. In my book, a scrub is a guy who simply can't play. Period. Everyone I talked about in that scenario has talent and can play. Big difference. I've seen every player I discussed -- I know firsthand not only that they're all far from 'scrubs' but that each guy has a great deal of ability and potential to contribute at the NBA level -- not only that, they all fit our needs perfectly one way or another...The last thing I rely on when evaluating a player is (1) whether or not they got drafted and (2) whether or not they played in the D-League.. That ain't gospel, at least not to me..A lot of you guys consider playing in the DL as some kind of stigmatism or black eye on a guy's record. Not true.. The DL is filled with guys that can play at the next level...If Grunwald worried about stuff like this he never would've offered Jeremy Lin a contract and Linsanity would've never gotten off the ground... If you actually saw any of these guys play then you'd have a better understanding of what I'm trying to say here. They're not scrubs! These are guys just like Lin, just like Novak, etc. -- guys that have talent and just need an opportunity to showcase those talents and show they belong.

Also for what it's worth, I don't think you go out and spend money on a veteran just for the sake of getting a veteran. No need for additional leadership on this club too in my view -- we already have leadership. This team is top heavy with veteran leadership -- Amar'e, Melo & Ty Chandler. Now there are always exceptions -- if we could ever get a guy like Steve Nash to come here for example, of course I'm in. That seems very doubtful to me though. Even if we win the Bird rights hearing and have the full mid-level to burn, (a) there's no guarantee he'll take the full MLE (some team out there may be in a position to offer him more than that---does he bite & go for the money with a contract that will most likely be his last substantial payday?) and (b) I heard Nash doesn't really wanna leave PHX anyway. Outside of Nash, there are few (if any) NBA vets that I'd overpay or offer up the full MLE to in order to bring here. Name me the one MLE-type FA who's out there that we could get that unequivocally puts us on that next level -- for us, I'd like to think that's on a championship level (remember we're talking mid-level salary guys, not the big fish -- gotta be realistic too -- don't give me some UFA that's obviously not leaving his current team). Maybe Steve Nash -- and that probably took a big hit when his boy D'Antoni departed the way he did...Who else? A past-his-prime Grant Hill? I think he'd definitely take the full MLE (I personally don't think he's nearly worth that kind of money anymore btw) but does he really put us on that level at this stage of his career? I don't think so..Plus this guy turned us down flat I don't know how many times. Like Nash, he probably doesn't wanna leave PHX anyway and might take less to stay there.. Pass. He doesn't want us and I don't want him...Who else then? Ray Allen? Maybe. Again, same thing though -- doubtful he leaves Boston and I actually think for what he does which is basically come off screens and knock down mid-range jumpers & 3s at a 40+% clip, there are guys in the draft that we could target for the same exact purpose (namely John Jenkins and Kim English) and save almost $6M a pop in the process. See where I'm coming from now a little? The last thing I wanna ever, ever, EVER see us do again is commit full MLE money to the wrong guy, find out it was a mistake and then have that bad contract handcuff us moving forward. Been there, done that. If it came down to that and we weren't talking about a no-brainer like a Steve Nash, I'd pass on handing out the full MLE to anyone and instead divide it up on smaller, more favorable contracts or bypass it altogether and target minimum level salary players as long as they've shown somewhere along the way that they can play. Just because we may have the MLE and smaller exceptions at our disposal doesn't mean we must use them. We have to be smart about what we decide to do. I'd like to think they understand that now. Also, from what I've read, the Knicks aren't interested in breaching the luxury tax threshold again anyway. The penalty is now much more severe supposedly. From a business standpoint, I don't blame them. Definitely can't do that if it's not for the right player and if the team wouldn't be on a championship level.
 
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Rob Low

Rotation player
The team we currently have is better than that lineup though. We need to get better this offseason not take steps backwards and take chances on a band of misfits who are either not in the league or getting any significant minutes
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
When you're looking for a WELL BALANCED TEAM and YOU'RE UP AGAINST THE SALARY CAP this is one of the best and safest ways to fill in the blanks. Welcome to the NBA. I wish they didn't have a damn salary cap, but they do..You look for cheap alternatives, guys with ability that have something to prove, guys with nice potential that we can turn into players, etc. I don't get what's so hard to understand.

LOL at calling these guys 'scrubs' btw. ROFL at that comment. In my book, a scrub is a guy who simply can't play. Period. Everyone I talked about in that scenario has talent and can play. Big difference. I've seen every player I discussed -- I know firsthand not only that they're all far from 'scrubs' but that each guy has a great deal of ability and potential to contribute at the NBA level -- not only that, they all fit our needs perfectly one way or another...The last thing I rely on when evaluating a player is (1) whether or not they got drafted and (2) whether or not they played in the D-League.. That ain't gospel, at least not to me..A lot of you guys consider playing in the DL as some kind of stigmatism or black eye on a guy's record. Not true.. The DL is filled with guys that can play at the next level...If Grunwald worried about stuff like this he never would've offered Jeremy Lin a contract and Linsanity would've never gotten off the ground... If you actually saw any of these guys play then you'd have a better understanding of what I'm trying to say here. They're not scrubs! These are guys just like Lin, just like Novak, etc. -- guys that have talent and just need an opportunity to showcase those talents and show they belong.

Also for what it's worth, I don't think you go out and spend money on a veteran just for the sake of getting a veteran. No need for additional leadership on this club too in my view -- we already have leadership. This team is top heavy with veteran leadership -- Amar'e, Melo & Ty Chandler. Now there are always exceptions -- if we could ever get a guy like Steve Nash to come here for example, of course I'm in. That seems very doubtful to me though. Even if we win the Bird rights hearing and have the full mid-level to burn, (a) there's no guarantee he'll take the full MLE (some team out there may be in a position to offer him more than that---does he bite & go for the money with a contract that will most likely be his last substantial payday?) and (b) I heard Nash doesn't really wanna leave PHX anyway. Outside of Nash, there are few (if any) NBA vets that I'd overpay or offer up the full MLE to in order to bring here. Name me the one MLE-type FA who's out there that we could get that unequivocally puts us on that next level -- for us, I'd like to think that's on a championship level (remember we're talking mid-level salary guys, not the big fish -- gotta be realistic too -- don't give me some UFA that's obviously not leaving his current team). Maybe Steve Nash -- and that probably took a big hit when his boy D'Antoni departed the way he did...Who else? A past-his-prime Grant Hill? I think he'd definitely take the full MLE (I personally don't think he's nearly worth that kind of money anymore btw) but does he really put us on that level at this stage of his career? I don't think so..Plus this guy turned us down flat I don't know how many times. Like Nash, he probably doesn't wanna leave PHX anyway and might take less to stay there.. Pass. He doesn't want us and I don't want him...Who else then? Ray Allen? Maybe. Again, same thing though -- doubtful he leaves Boston and I actually think for what he does which is basically come off screens and knock down mid-range jumpers & 3s at a 40+% clip, there are guys in the draft that we could target for the same exact purpose (namely John Jenkins and Kim English) and save almost $6M a pop in the process. See where I'm coming from now a little? The last thing I wanna ever, ever, EVER see us do again is commit full MLE money to the wrong guy, find out it was a mistake and then have that bad contract handcuff us moving forward. Been there, done that. If it came down to that and we weren't talking about a no-brainer like a Steve Nash, I'd pass on handing out the full MLE to anyone and instead divide it up on smaller, more favorable contracts or bypass it altogether and target minimum level salary players as long as they've shown somewhere along the way that they can play. Just because we may have the MLE and smaller exceptions at our disposal doesn't mean we must use them. We have to be smart about what we decide to do. I'd like to think they understand that now. Also, from what I've read, the Knicks aren't interested in breaching the luxury tax threshold again anyway. The penalty is now much more severe supposedly. From a business standpoint, I don't blame them. Definitely can't do that if it's not for the right player and if the team wouldn't be on a championship level.

I don't think the D-League has many guys like Lin or Novak. There are too many guys down in that league that are never gonna make an NBA roster, let alone crack a rotation.

I like your arguments relating to finding value at a lower cost and why it's important right now. I think it's really hard to find guys like that though. You have to be savvy but also very lucky.

Do you think Odom would be the right player, if this league ruling re Bird rights goes our way? I do.

I would favor getting a player of his ilk over dividing the MLE up for smaller contracts/ lesser talented players. That is if he would even take the MLE to play for us. I think there's a good chance he'd take the MLE to come back to his hometown and also prove himself after the Dallas debacle. A player like Odom puts us in a good position to contend IMO if he can come off the bench and produce like he did in LA, that is rebound, defend and make the open 3... and play multiple positions. You get him on the right team and he's gonna really help.

I agree w you that there's a small chance Nash would take the MLE to come here, especially after the D'Antoni resignation.
 

finestrg

Rotation player
I don't think the D-League has many guys like Lin or Novak. There are too many guys down in that league that are never gonna make an NBA roster, let alone crack a rotation.

I like your arguments relating to finding value at a lower cost and why it's important right now. I think it's really hard to find guys like that though. You have to be savvy but also very lucky.

Do you think Odom would be the right player, if this league ruling re Bird rights goes our way? I do.

I would favor getting a player of his ilk over dividing the MLE up for smaller contracts/ lesser talented players. That is if he would even take the MLE to play for us. I think there's a good chance he'd take the MLE to come back to his hometown and also prove himself after the Dallas debacle. A player like Odom puts us in a good position to contend IMO if he can come off the bench and produce like he did in LA, that is rebound, defend and make the open 3... and play multiple positions. You get him on the right team and he's gonna really help.

I agree w you that there's a small chance Nash would take the MLE to come here, especially after the D'Antoni resignation.

Intelligent, quality response. You make some good points although I still say the D-League (along with the pool of domestic talent that decided to go play overseas) has quite a few good players that are capable of playing in the NBA -- the guys I personally talked about on my hypothetical roster post above I continue to stand by. I know they all can play & I think they would all be good fits here, every one of 'em.

Agree on Odom. His time is most likely over in Dallas, although they still hold a team option on him for $8.2M. Not sure what Cuban's gonna do there -- I'm sure he's not gonna want to lose him for nothing but maybe that's exactly what happens. I think he played himself right outta town there...True, like Nash, he's another guy that's an exception to what I'm saying. Forgot about him for a sec. Maybe he would come to NY and fill the same role he did for the Lakers off the bench. If his head's screwed on straight he could help us. The man still has talent and also championship experience..Might be worth ponying up most or all of the MLE for him if we aren't forced to use it on Lin...Good call.
 
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