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Thread: Knicks and Nets

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    Originally Posted by WeReady
    Dont underestimeate joe johnson yes his contract is atrocious but he is the 3rd best SG in the league. Can you name any other SG better than Him besides kobe and wade? Probably not. And Without Joe Johnson Atlanta was not making make the playoffs so yes he does elevate his teams. Dont's underestimate joe johnson this guy is the real deal just because he is quiet dose not mean he can't ball.

    At this point in time Joe Johnson> Carmelo Anthony until proven otherwise. At least his teams get out of the first round of the playoffs
    Joe Johnson as a 3rd option playing alongside an MVP calibre PG & a dominant PF making reasonable dollars is valuable to a team. Joe Johnson as a primary scoring option making 1 of the biggest salaries in the NBA, not so much.

    & I completely disagree with you on Joe Johnson > Melo, but that's a debate that we could go on forever on until 1 of these guys LEADS his team to a championship as the #1 guy.

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    Originally Posted by STAT1
    Joe Johnson as a 3rd option playing alongside an MVP calibre PG & a dominant PF making reasonable dollars is valuable to a team. Joe Johnson as a primary scoring option making 1 of the biggest salaries in the NBA, not so much.

    & I completely disagree with you on Joe Johnson > Melo, but that's a debate that we could go on forever on until 1 of these guys LEADS his team to a championship as the #1 guy.
    Joe johnson can get his shot off on anybody that he wants just like carmelo but the one caveat is he also gets his teammates involved within the offense and plays consistent defense. The only reason people think he is overrated is because of the amount of money atlanta gave him. They had his bird rights so they maxed him out. In my opinion he the most underrated shooting guard in the league as far as recognition

    As a second option joe johnson is a beast on offense see his years with nash at the helm. And they have a double double guy in Kris Humpries so i don't see the problem here. Honestly its going to be new york and brooklyn fighting for the 4/5 seed in the east. Our front court is better than theirs, their back court is better than ours. If these finals have taught us anything you need a strong backcourt in combination with elite defense to win.

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    Originally Posted by WeReady
    Joe johnson can get his shot off on anybody that he wants just like carmelo but the one caveat is he also gets his teammates involved within the offense and plays consistent defense. The only reason people think he is overrated is because of the amount of money atlanta gave him. They had his bird rights so they maxed him out. In my opinion he the most underrated shooting guard in the league as far as recognition

    As a second option joe johnson is a beast on offense see his years with nash at the helm. And they have a double double guy in Kris Humpries so i don't see the problem here. Honestly its going to be new york and brooklyn fighting for the 4/5 seed in the east. Our front court is better than theirs, their back court is better than ours. If these finals have taught us anything you need a strong backcourt in combination with elite defense to win.
    Not true, Dallas Mavericks proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can win just by playing sound, fundamental basketball, making open jumpshots & keeping your composure against a much younger & quicker Miami Heat team. I think our team is built to do just that. We have good balance all around, good mix of veterans & plenty of athletic players to keep pace with faster teams.

    We have 3 veteran PG's who have proven throughout their careers that they can get the ball into the hands of their top scorers. We have 2 veteran C's who's game is centered around defense & rebounding & don't need the ball in their hands to be effective, & we have 2 elite scorers who can get their shot off anyone in this league. Throw in a top spot up shooter like Novak to keep defenses honest, along with a wildcard X factor like JR Smith who can get hot at any minute & take over a game as well as an elite perimeter defender in Shump when he's healthy, & you have the makings of a potential championship contender. I'm not saying the Knicks are better than the Heat right now, but if they play the right way I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to give them a serious run for their money.

    As for Joe Johnson's years in Phoenix, he was always the #3 option behind Nash & STAT. His career averages playing with 1 of the top PG's of alltime:

    13.3 points
    3.5 assists
    4.3 rebounds

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    Originally Posted by WeReady
    Dont underestimeate joe johnson yes his contract is atrocious but he is the 3rd best SG in the league. Can you name any other SG better than Him besides kobe and wade? Probably not. And Without Joe Johnson Atlanta was not making make the playoffs so yes he does elevate his teams. Dont's underestimate joe johnson this guy is the real deal just because he is quiet dose not mean he can't ball.

    At this point in time Joe Johnson> Carmelo Anthony until proven otherwise. At least his teams get out of the first round of the playoffs
    I'd put Ray Allen over JJ any day. Melo is more of an offensive threat than JJ so I disagree on JJ > Melo. How many game winners does JJ have? How many conference finals has JJ been to? How many times has JJ played in the Olympics?


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    Originally Posted by JaYnYcE
    I'd put Ray Allen over JJ any day. Melo is more of an offensive threat than JJ so I disagree on JJ > Melo. How many game winners does JJ have? How many conference finals has JJ been to? How many times has JJ played in the Olympics?


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    I would have to disagreee with you, Joe Johnson is way better than Ray Allen in todays NBA game. All Ray Allen is this stage of his career is a lethal catch and shoot shooter coming of the screens. Johnson has better game ,today, then Ray and can get his shot off anyone instead of it being created for him.
    Joe Johnson's Atlanta STAT
    Screen Shot 2012-07-22 at 8.39.23 PM.jpg

    Ray Allen Boston STATS
    Screen Shot 2012-07-22 at 8.40.07 PM.jpg

    You need some Joe Johnson game winners well here you go




    Joe Johnson was also apart of the 2008 Gold Medal Redeem Team. He was apart of the 2005 Western Conference Finals team with Phoenix (broke his nose was out for remainder of the series)who eventually lost to the Spurs that year. Is a 6-time all-star, took his Atlanta team to the playoffs since 2007-2008, made it the second round of the playoffs every year after 2007-2008, except this past year. He declined to be apart of the 2012 Team to nurse injuries So what are you talking about?

    If your not going to put at least a little bit of research into the topic don't say anything at all
    Last edited by WeReady; Jul 22, 2012 at 20:26.

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    Originally Posted by STAT1
    Not true, Dallas Mavericks proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can win just by playing sound, fundamental basketball, making open jumpshots & keeping your composure against a much younger & quicker Miami Heat team. I think our team is built to do just that. We have good balance all around, good mix of veterans & plenty of athletic players to keep pace with faster teams.

    We have 3 veteran PG's who have proven throughout their careers that they can get the ball into the hands of their top scorers. We have 2 veteran C's who's game is centered around defense & rebounding & don't need the ball in their hands to be effective, & we have 2 elite scorers who can get their shot off anyone in this league. Throw in a top spot up shooter like Novak to keep defenses honest, along with a wildcard X factor like JR Smith who can get hot at any minute & take over a game as well as an elite perimeter defender in Shump when he's healthy, & you have the makings of a potential championship contender. I'm not saying the Knicks are better than the Heat right now, but if they play the right way I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to give them a serious run for their money.

    As for Joe Johnson's years in Phoenix, he was always the #3 option behind Nash & STAT. His career averages playing with 1 of the top PG's of alltime:

    13.3 points
    3.5 assists
    4.3 rebounds
    The point that I was trying to make is The Miami Heat are the Champions. I know that Lebron is a front court player but he is more like Magic Johnson so there for they have an elite back court with him and wade. We Either Match up to their athleticism which we lack on our team or exploit them at the 1 and the 5. All Felton is going to be is a glorified Chalmers, give the stars the ball and move out the way. And Chandler is limited offensively but brings championship experience. If we can't exploit Miami's weaknesses at the 1 and the 5 as well as them being an undersized team we are not getting past them

    Second who did Dallas have playing elite to beat the Heat in the backcourt, Dirk (i know he is a front court player but makes his money on the perimeter and Kidd, Terry) Along with elite defenders in Chandler and Marion. They were able to exploit Miami's weakness and turned them into a jump shooting team with the implementation of the zone defense that year.

    OKC tried to do the same thing in this years finals But Spolesltra decided to Put Lebron on the move to exploit that defense.

    Yes while I agree we have two elite scorers in Melo and STAT neither plays consistent defense and are ball dominate high usage guys. WHen one is not on the floor with the other they flourish especially STAT. Even though i hated it , Thats why i understood the move to cut Billiups to get tyson to shore up our defense but it compromised our offense.I hope with the acquisition of Felton and especially Kidd we can get that chemistry back like when Billups was here.

    Its also proven that with shooters like Novak and Jr Smith they can be frozen out of the game and rendered useless without a playmaking PG (*see our first round exist this year)

    Anyway our roster is disjointed, and got old rather quickly. The x factor here is the PG slot and how much production we get from the Kidd/Felton tandem to make it work

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    Originally Posted by WeReady
    I would have to disagreee with you, Joe Johnson is way better than Ray Allen in todays NBA game. All Ray Allen is this stage of his career is a lethal catch and shoot shooter coming of the screens. Johnson has better game ,today, then Ray and can get his shot off anyone instead of it being created for him.
    Joe Johnson's Atlanta STAT
    Screen Shot 2012-07-22 at 8.39.23 PM.jpg

    Ray Allen Boston STATS
    Screen Shot 2012-07-22 at 8.40.07 PM.jpg

    You need some Joe Johnson game winners well here you go




    Joe Johnson was also apart of the 2008 Gold Medal Redeem Team. He was apart of the 2005 Western Conference Finals team with Phoniex (broke his nose was out for remainder of the series)who eventually lost to the Spurs that year. He declined to be apart of the 2012 Team to nurse injuries So what are you talking about?
    You said JJ was better than Melo. Melo is second to Kobe Bryant in game winning shots since 2003 (this was on ESPN prior to the playoffs).

    This is Melo's 3rd showing in the Olympics since 2004.

    Was JJ a starter for that 2005 WCF team? I hardly even remember his impact on that Phoenix team. Did he come off the bench?

    Melo's credentials and talent out weigh JJ's. He's not an elite player. He's more of a third option if not a second option on a team.


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    Originally Posted by JaYnYcE
    You said JJ was better than Melo. Melo is second to Kobe Bryant in game winning shots since 2003 (this was on ESPN prior to the playoffs).

    This is Melo's 3rd showing in the Olympics since 2004.

    Was JJ a starter for that 2005 WCF team? I hardly even remember his impact on that Phoenix team. Did he come off the bench?

    Melo's credentials and talent out weigh JJ's. He's not an elite player. He's more of a third option if not a second option on a team.


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    Reading is fundamental you know. Weren't you the one that stated you would take Ray Allen Over Joe Johnson now? Did I not answer your question with credible information to back up my statements? Did I not say that Joe Johnson has been out of the first round more times than melo? So according to my calculations he is in a way better than Melo. He's an olympic gold medal winner, Been to the WCF with Phoenix (like i said broke his nose in game one of the series coming off a dunk rendered useless the rest of the series) Been out of the second round more than once with his Atlanta Hawks team.

    All Melo is, is an elite gunner, got out of the first round once out of nine tries, so get your head our your ass and pay attention

    And by the looks of if you can't refute anything I'm saying, because my statements are based on FACTS yours are based on what ...your affinity for MELO? NYK pride? Like I said if your going to make a statement at least do a little research so that you can contribute something to the conversation

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    Originally Posted by WeReady
    Reading is fundamental you know. Weren't you the one that stated you would take Ray Allen Over Joe Johnson now? Did I not answer your question with credible information to back up my statements? Did I not say that Joe Johnson has been out of the first round more times than melo? So according to my calculations he is in a way better than Melo. He's an olympic gold medal winner, Been to the WCF with Phoenix (like i said broke his nose in game one of the series coming off a dunk rendered useless the rest of the series) Been out of the second round more than once with his Atlanta Hawks team.

    All Melo is, is an elite gunner, got out of the first round once out of nine tries, so get your head our your ass and pay attention

    And by the looks of if you can't refute anything I'm saying, because my statements are based on FACTS yours are based on what ...your affinity for MELO? NYK pride? Like I said if your going to make a statement at least do a little research so that you can contribute something to the conversation
    I would take Allen over JJ any day, I stand by that. Allen is a proven winner.

    I don't understand why you're getting hostile. Melo's credentials in his professional career has out weighed JJ's and Melo's career has been shorter. Melo has also been statistically better as well.

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1343012974.414030.jpg
    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1343012989.968443.jpg

    And to refute your getting out of the first round more than Melo, the second round doesn't all of a sudden make him better than Melo. He's made it one round further than Melo 2 more times and once to the WCF. You mentioned that Wade and Kobe are better than JJ. Wade has only gotten out of the 1st round 5 times compared to JJ's 4. Dwayne Wade is better than a stat like that that shows JJ and himself being close in greatness.


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    WeReady, I am curious why it is that you feel Joe Johnson led the Suns to the WCF when he was at best a #3 option on that team (can even be argued he was the #4 option behind Shawn Marion as well). Once again, Joe Johnson's career averages during his days in Phoenix are hardly anything to write home about (13.3 points / 3.5 assists / 4.3 rebounds) & definitely not what you would call elite level production.

    That Suns team was STACKED with talent, that's why they got to the WCF, not because Joe Johnson carried them there. To say that he's better than Melo because he's been further along in the playoffs is a bit silly. If you remember, Melo has also been to the WCF as well, & unlike Joe Johnson, Melo was the #1 scoring option on that Denver team & took the eventual champions the Lakers to a game 6 in a very hotly contested series & actually played the entire series without breaking his nose.

    As for Joe Johnson taking the Atlanta Hawks past the 1st round of the playoffs more times than Melo has over his career, let's remember that the EC has been a much weaker conference for most of the time these guys have been in the NBA. It's only been since recently that the shift of power is beginning to swing back over to the East again with the migration of top talent to EC teams.

    Regardless of this, to say player A is better than player B just because his TEAM has made it further along in the playoffs in a different conference is not really a valid argument IMO. You have to also consider the context, the circumstances & the production that the players put up over their careers as well. Melo has been the primary scorer on his teams ever since he was a rookie. It took Joe Johnson 4 years before he became a starter, & even then he was never really considered elite.

    JJ has averaged over 20 ppg in only 5 seasons. Melo has averaged over 20 ppg every season he's been in the NBA (10 straight years). JJ's career scoring average is 17.8 ppg vs. Melo's 24.7.

    To be considered a top player in this league, you need to demonstrate consistency. Carmelo Anthony has proven himself to be an elite scorer in this league. The only thing Joe Johnson does better than Melo is distributing the basketball, & even that is not a big difference at all when you consider that playing as a SG he has the advantage of doing more orchestrating & setting up an offense than Melo does playing at the SF spot, just as Melo has the advantage of getting to more rebounds as a frontcourt player.

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    WeReady, I am curious why it is that you feel Joe Johnson led the Suns to the WCF when he was at best a #3 option on that team (can even be argued he was the #4 option behind Shawn Marion as well). Once again, Joe Johnson's career averages during his days in Phoenix are hardly anything to write home about (13.3 points / 3.5 assists / 4.3 rebounds) & definitely not what you would call elite level production.
    Like i said i was answering JaYnYe question about weather he has been to a WCF, which he has, I never said that Joe Johnson was the catalyst

    That Suns team was STACKED with talent, that's why they got to the WCF, not because Joe Johnson carried them there. To say that he's better than Melo because he's been further along in the playoffs is a bit silly. If you remember, Melo has also been to the WCF as well, & unlike Joe Johnson, Melo was the #1 scoring option on that Denver team & took the eventual champions the Lakers to a game 6 in a very hotly contested series & actually played the entire series without breaking his nose.
    Like i SAID I never said that he was a catalyst for the team because yes their roster was stacked w/ johnson on it.And it has been said that had he not broken his nose in the series vs the spurs. Phoniex would of won the championship that year

    As for Joe Johnson taking the Atlanta Hawks past the 1st round of the playoffs more times than Melo has over his career, let's remember that the EC has been a much weaker conference for most of the time these guys have been in the NBA. It's only been since recently that the shift of power is beginning to swing back over to the East again with the migration of top talent to EC teams.
    So by your logic is doesn't matter that Joe Johnson is a constant winner who utilizes his TEAM to excel because of a weak East. Your argument is equivalent to saying "well lets discount everything Lebron has done because the east was weak" (don't go off on a tangent thinking i said joe johnson talent is akin to lebron)

    Melo is afforded the same chances now in this conference which is still weak but has not led us out the first round. I thought the name of the game was taking your team to the next level, to get to the championship round. That's what Elite superstars do right? take your team to the next level. Has he done that with Denver? (besides his one appearance) Knicks?

    And lets be real here, It *argubably* was the acquisition of Chauncy Billups trade involving Allen inversion to Detroit that led them to that one WCF appearance not Melo.

    Regardless of this, to say player A is better than player B just because his TEAM has made it further along in the playoffs in a different conference is not really a valid argument IMO. You have to also consider the context, the circumstances & the production that the players put up over their careers as well. Melo has been the primary scorer on his teams ever since he was a rookie. It took Joe Johnson 4 years before he became a starter, & even then he was never really considered elite.

    JJ has averaged over 20 ppg in only 5 seasons. Melo has averaged over 20 ppg every season he's been in the NBA (10 straight years). JJ's career scoring average is 17.8 ppg vs. Melo's 24.7.

    To be considered a top player in this league, you need to demonstrate consistency. Carmelo Anthony has proven himself to be an elite scorer in this league. The only thing Joe Johnson does better than Melo is distributing the basketball, & even that is not a big difference at all when you consider that playing as a SG he has the advantage of doing more orchestrating & setting up an offense than Melo does playing at the SF spot, just as Melo has the advantage of getting to more rebounds as a frontcourt player.
    To be an elite superstar in this league you have to play defense as well as offense i never said that "stars" such as melo and joe johnson were in that stratosphere

    Without Melo Denver is still a playoff team, without Joe Johnson the hawks will miss the playoffs. You see the difference here on the level of impact each person has?

    Im not refuting anything you said because its true carmelo is an elite scorer And they play two different positions. However i felt that joe johnson is better because he has lead his teams (excluding phoenix) closer to the championship round better than carmelo did in his one appearance and he is an overall better player as a second option on a championship squad. You and I both know that in order for your team to succeed your best player has to take you there. What has Melo done to convince me that he is championship piece so far? (like making their teammates around them better)and my rants are based on team success not individual. I should of clarified earlier.

    And for JanYnYc except for being elite in scoring what else does melo do well? Rebound? Steals? Passes well out of double teams? Lock his man up with elite defense? Make his teammates better?
    Johnson's resume in the past 4-5 years is either equal or superior than melo's as far how their respective teams go . I mean thats how we judge "superstars" or "star" right based on their impact on overall team success? Or am I missing something; winning does not matter? So please tell me at this point what does Melo bring to the table to make his team's better? Besides scoring i just don't see it

    The pieces on our team do not fit and honestly i would trade melo to the nets for either deron williams or joe johnson if STAT were to stay or STAT to the nets for humpries and reggie evans because we need rebounding and hustle guys. If we were to truly build around Melo, so that the team defense covers up his weakness and he can take all the shots he wants being the true #1 option
    Last edited by WeReady; Jul 23, 2012 at 00:32.

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    Originally Posted by JaYnYcE
    I would take Allen over JJ any day, I stand by that. Allen is a proven winner.

    I don't understand why you're getting hostile. Melo's credentials in his professional career has out weighed JJ's and Melo's career has been shorter. Melo has also been statistically better as well.

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1343012974.414030.jpg
    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1343012989.968443.jpg

    And to refute your getting out of the first round more than Melo, the second round doesn't all of a sudden make him better than Melo. He's made it one round further than Melo 2 more times and once to the WCF. You mentioned that Wade and Kobe are better than JJ. Wade has only gotten out of the 1st round 5 times compared to JJ's 4. Dwayne Wade is better than a stat like that that shows JJ and himself being close in greatness.


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    I dont understand what you are talking about in regards to dwayne wade i said that JJ is the 3 best SG in the league, can you please clarify the point that you are trying to make?

    The reason why dwayne wade is better than JJ is because he is a two time NBA champion Finals MVP so no they are not equal they are not in the same stratosphere

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    Originally Posted by WeReady
    I dont understand what you are talking about in regards to dwayne wade i said that JJ is the 3 best SG in the league, can you please clarify the point that you are trying to make?

    The reason why dwayne wade is better than JJ is because he is a two time NBA champion Finals MVP so no they are not equal they are not in the same stratosphere
    I bring up DWade because of your emphasis on JJ being able to bring his team out of the first round. DWade has done it 5 times while JJ has done it 4, or 3 if you only count Atlanta when he became the number 1 option. You just explained why DWade is better than JJ so I'll leave it at that, even though DWade has only gotten his teams out of the first round one more than JJ. I'd also like to add, to be fair, if you don't count this past year where DWade publicly admitted to deferring to Lebron, does he get credit for getting his team out of the first round?

    Last year STAT and Billups were injured and Melo was playing with guys like Roger Mason, Landry Fields and Jared Jeffries. This playoffs, no one beat the Heat in the playoffs. Not to mention playing with a hobbled Davis, a flu ridden Chandler who was hooked up to an I.V. hours before the game, Landry Fields, JR Starks and an unhealthy STAT.

    Melo has drawn the short end of a stick for two years now with no consistent help. Hopefully this upcoming season it will be different, for his sake.


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    Originally Posted by JaYnYcE
    I bring up DWade because of your emphasis on JJ being able to bring his team out of the first round. DWade has done it 5 times while JJ has done it 4, or 3 if you only count Atlanta when he became the number 1 option. You just explained why DWade is better than JJ so I'll leave it at that, even though DWade has only gotten his teams out of the first round one more than JJ. I'd also like to add, to be fair, if you don't count this past year where DWade publicly admitted to deferring to Lebron, does he get credit for getting his team out of the first round?
    Yes because it means that both players WILL NOT ACCEPT MEDIOCRACY. LOSING IN THE FIRST ROUND EVERY YEAR TEACHES US THAT MELO IS FINE BEING MEDIOCRE in comparison to other "stars" and "superstars" in the league. As a fan of the NYK i do not accept just making the playoffs there better be an end game in mind and you should not accept being mediocre either because our best player is a high volume shooter that accepts getting his over WINNING

    Last year STAT and Billups were injured and Melo was playing with guys like Roger Mason, Landry Fields and Jared Jeffries. This playoffs, no one beat the Heat in the playoffs. Not to mention playing with a hobbled Davis, a flu ridden Chandler who was hooked up to an I.V. hours before the game, Landry Fields, JR Starks and an unhealthy STAT.
    Lebron has gotten deeper in the playoffs with much less even made the Finals with a scrub team. Who is JR Starks?

    Melo has drawn the short end of a stick for two years now with no consistent help. Hopefully this upcoming season it will be different, for his sake.


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    Like I mentioned a ton on these threads, MELO did this to himself and should be judged accordingly. He has the team he wants (minus STAT) the coach he wants and the spotlight squarely on his shoulders LIKE HE WANTS. Therefore anything less than and ECF appearance is FAILURE

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    If Joe Johnson is not the catalyst, then how does he deserve any credit for his teams winning? I don't get this mentality. When has Joe Johnson ever taken his teams to the championship round?

    I agree with you, the acquisition of Chauncey in Denver played a big role, but Melo was the main guy on that team, not Chauncey. If you don't want to give Melo any credit for helping the Nuggets get to the WCF, how can you possibly credit Joe Johnson for helping the Suns as a 3rd or 4th option when it was Steve Nash, Amar'e Stoudemire & Shawn Marion who were the main guys who got them there? You're trying to paint an argument against Melo but not willing to apply the same reasoning to Joe Johnson. You can't have this both ways.

    Without Melo Denver is still a playoff team, without Joe Johnson the hawks will miss the playoffs. You see the difference here on the level of impact each person has?
    Not really no. I think the Hawks will still be a playoff team next season, they still have a solid roster of players that is good enough to make it in the EC as long as they stay healthy.

    Im not refuting anything you said because its true carmelo is an elite scorer And they play two different positions. However i felt that joe johnson is better because he has lead his teams (excluding phoenix) closer to the championship round better than carmelo did in his one appearance and he is an overall better player as a second option on a championship squad. You and I both know that in order for your team to succeed your best player has to take you there. What has Melo done to convince me that he is championship piece so far? (like making their teammates around them better)and my rants are based on team success not individual. I should of clarified earlier.
    When has Joe Johnson ever been a second option on a championship squad? Like I pointed out already the closest he's ever gotten to being on a championship squad was when he was the 4th option on a stacked Suns team. Melo got to the same level in the playoffs as the #1 option on his. If what determines the better player in your eyes is being able to be the best player on your team & take them to victory, then Melo is probably more fitting the mold.

    Melo has also never had teammates like Steve Nash during his MVP seasons & STAT in his younger playing prime. The current version of STAT is nowhere near the player he once was. Joe Johnson got to the WCF because of the team he was on, the Suns did not get there because Joe Johnson was on the team. Let's get that straight here. Did he help? Sure he did, but he was not the main reason, not the 2nd main reason, not even the 3rd main reason they got there.
    Last edited by STAT1; Jul 23, 2012 at 06:48.

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