Knicks and Nets

[JaYnYcE]

Yes because it means that both players WILL NOT ACCEPT MEDIOCRACY. LOSING IN THE FIRST ROUND EVERY YEAR TEACHES US THAT MELO IS FINE BEING MEDIOCRE in comparison to other "stars" and "superstars" in the league. As a fan of the NYK i do not accept just making the playoffs there better be an end game in mind and you should not accept being mediocre either because our best player is a high volume shooter that accepts getting his over WINNING



Lebron has gotten deeper in the playoffs with much less even made the Finals with a scrub team. Who is JR Starks?



Like I mentioned a ton on these threads, MELO did this to himself and should be judged accordingly. He has the team he wants (minus STAT) the coach he wants and the spotlight squarely on his shoulders LIKE HE WANTS. Therefore anything less than and ECF appearance is FAILURE

I accept losing in the first round if there are legitimate circumstances.

I don't think comparing Melo to Lebron is fair. First, Lebron is a better player. Second, Lebron gets everyone involved. He has no problem making the right basketball play at the expense of attempting a game winning shot. Lebron has taken less talent deep into the playoffs because he's played a whole season with them vs Melo playing 2 and a half months with the Knicks' second unit.

JR Starks is a nod to John Starks' infamous playoff game in '94 when he couldn't buy a shot against Houston. JR Smith is a streaky shooter and if he's your second go to guy we're in trouble.

Bright lights or not, to expect Melo to do it by himself is a failure in itself. He knows he can't do it by himself and has publicly called out his team for guys to step up.


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[knickerbocka176]

Why is that even an argument? Joe johnson isnt better then melo. Its not a coincidence that denver had their worst record since melo was drafted. Melo had an off season and still put up better numbers.

[Crazy⑧s]

Matchup for and against.

5 - Tyson > Hopez Tyson is just the better all round player. Lopez outclasses him offensively without question. But with TC hounding him non stop, I don't see there being a big discrepancy in points scored between them per outing. 10-12 points apiece.


4 - STAT > Humpdashian. Humphries has been improving in leaps and bounds since last year, however, and if it becomes a battle of the cranium between these 2 1 on 1, Humphries would take the cake.

3 - Melo > Geraldine. Definitely a clash of yin and yang. The gritty defender VS the versatile and physical/graceful scorer. But if Melo were to apply the defense, the scale tips inadvertently. He can't have one of those night off defensive outings against the Nets, mind you, and we'll see just how much this lost weight benefits his stamina against G Wallace. Melo has far more upside as a creator than Wallace as well.

2 - JR < Joe John Thomas. Until Shump returns and finds form, we're in a spot of bother at the 2. Johnson is backed up by Brooks, as well. JR showed some real defensive capability last year, even defending Nowitzki competently during Linsanity. Johnson is an inch taller and 20 pounds heavier, and his ISO game can get the Knicks in foul trouble at the crucial 2 spot.

Will we bring in either Weems or Evans to counter our SG weakness? I think we'll have to. Shump returns without any guarantee of a return to form, or even capability for that matter.

1 - Raymond <<<< DSwill. Ummmmmmmm......f*ckery. I think this is the mismatch that gets analysts sucking the pole of the Nyets. No need to really elaborate, we all know full well how much we'll get F'd in the A at the 1.

Brooks and Evans are big pluses for the Nets, but they've shown their cards by adding Jerry Sh*thouse to their roster, IMO. The Nets only have the 1 spot left to fill. The Knicks have 3. Grundog is gonna have to impress with such little wiggle room. Shame we lost Jefferies.

As of now, thanks to the bench, I'd give the upper hand to the Knicks regarding personnel. Still, this is going to be a season series to remember given the match ups.

[WeReady]

If Joe Johnson is not the catalyst, then how does he deserve any credit for his teams winning? I don't get this mentality. When has Joe Johnson ever taken his teams to the championship round?



I agree with you, the acquisition of Chauncey in Denver played a big role, but Melo was the main guy on that team, not Chauncey. If you don't want to give Melo any credit for helping the Nuggets get to the WCF, how can you possibly credit Joe Johnson for helping the Suns as a 3rd or 4th option when it was Steve Nash, Amar'e Stoudemire & Shawn Marion who were the main guys who got them there? You're trying to paint an argument against Melo but not willing to apply the same reasoning to Joe Johnson. You can't have this both ways.

Not really no. I think the Hawks will still be a playoff team next season, they still have a solid roster of players that is good enough to make it in the EC as long as they stay healthy.

When has Joe Johnson ever been a second option on a championship squad? Like I pointed out already the closest he's ever gotten to being on a championship squad was when he was the 4th option on a stacked Suns team. Melo got to the same level in the playoffs as the #1 option on his. If what determines the better player in your eyes is being able to be the best player on your team & take them to victory, then Melo is probably more fitting the mold.

Melo has also never had teammates like Steve Nash during his MVP seasons & STAT in his younger playing prime. The current version of STAT is nowhere near the player he once was. Joe Johnson got to the WCF because of the team he was on, the Suns did not get there because Joe Johnson was on the team. Let's get that straight here. Did he help? Sure he did, but he was not the main reason, not the 2nd main reason, not even the 3rd main reason they got there.

I can equally say when has Carmelo ever taken his teams to the championship round? it goes both ways. I never said he did that, he needed Nash they way Melo needed Billups


Why are we arguing about WCF appearance when i stated that the previous poster asked me a questions about Joe Johnson and I answered it. You didn't ask me bland straigtfoward question as "has Joe Johnson ever been to a WCF? And the answer simply is yes. They didn't ask me was he the catalyst, the didnt ask me was he the 1st,2nd, or 3rd option. That poster was trying to suggest that in comparison to Melo Joe Johnson is a scrub when in fact they both have similar resumes. What are you trying to demonstrate to me ? That Joe Johnson is a scrub? Did I say he was the catalyst on that squad? NOOOOOO. Did I not say that team was stacked that year? YESSSSSS. Did I not say that had he not broken his nose they would of been in the Finals that year? YESSSSSS. That showed you the level of impact he has for his team. Ive said it several times actually so what are you arguing?

How many times do i have to explain that the poster including yourself was trying to discount Joe Johnson like he is a two-bit scrub. He is not, widely overpaid yes. His contract overrates him even though his game is underrated Carmelo talent wise is better than Joe Johnson but when it comes to team success Joe Johnson is better than Carmelo Anthony. Point-blank period. Those are the facts

Just because he does not get that much shine like the lebron's kobe's and Melo's of the world does not mean is resume is **** compared to the rest of the field.

Like i mention before just because he is quiet and does not get that much coverage does not mean Joe Johnson is a scrub that is the point I'm trying to make. Everyone is dismissing and discounting the guy like he is the 12th man on the bench. And then want to act like his resume docent stack up to melo (*by the way didn't melo need a pg as well to get to where is was going? makes your point invalid) when in fact they both had stacked and scrub teams and one was a little more successful than the other.

Carmelo needs to be a #2 option on a championship squad just like Joe Johnson because isolation plays all day long do not work . Its not going to win you anything. Both are specialist at it. Johnson has showed me that he gets his teammates involved way more than Melo has. Melo needs a PG to limit his amount of touches. He is a blackhole the ball dose not move. When have you ever heard that about Johnson? What is the point of getting 34 pts and 8rpg if we still lose anyway. Thats inefficient. Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant even Bosh and STAT put up similar numbers leading to team wins because they get everyone involved.

And finally the Nets have a better back court than the Knicks because of Joe Johnson *arguably* second best backcourt in the league second to Kobe and Nash. The Knicks have the best Front court in the league because of Carmelo Anthony. But what these finals have taught me is that you need a strong backcourt , 1 strong front court player , as well as to play selflessly in order to win. Thats what this argument comes down to will melo play selflessly and allow other to get involved, or is going to continue to play like a black hole?

P.S. As of right now our front court is Nordstroms and our backcourt is walmart

[STAT1]

Just to be clear, I never once said Joe Johnson was a scrub, that's your own misinterpretation of my comments. I said Joe Johnson was overrated, by the media & by posters such as yourself (which is not the same thing as saying I think Joe Johnson is a scrub in the least). I pointed out his career stats & the actual role he played in Phoenix to counter the points you were trying to make to justify your argument that he was a better player than Carmelo Anthony, which I simply cannot agree with. I mentioned WCF appearances because it was a topic which you had initiated into this discussion.

I'm not trying to badger you on this thread, merely explaining my stance that I disagree & why.

[WeReady]

Just to be clear, I never once said Joe Johnson was a scrub, that's your own misinterpretation of my comments. I said Joe Johnson was overrated, by the media & by posters such as yourself (which is not the same thing as saying I think Joe Johnson is a scrub in the least). I pointed out his career stats & the actual role he played in Phoenix to counter the points you were trying to make to justify your argument that he was a better player than Carmelo Anthony, which I simply cannot agree with. I mentioned WCF appearances because it was a topic which you had initiated into this discussion.

I'm not trying to badger you on this thread, merely explaining my stance that I disagree & why.

Your not badgering me this is the type of conversations i like to engage in. Instead of one sentence statements and posing it as fact you actually plan out and think about your arguments unlike other posters. For this i commend you. I even repped you for it

Yes we will have to agree to disagree on this one I'm trying to simply point out that Joe Johnson is the real deal and should not be discounted or his resume discredited because the media does not give him the same shine like other star and superstar players. I mean Jeremy Lin got more shine than Joe Johnson. And for the record i never initiated the WCF thing another poster put out a generic statement and i answered it generically.

[STAT1]

Understood about the WCF issue.

No worries dude, we're not always going to agree on everything. That's why I come to these forums, you can actually carry on an intelligent debate without it resulting in a flame war & personal insults (well with certain posters anyway lol). Believe me I've been to other sites like this where the entire populace almost seems to exist to act like a-holes to anyone who wants to engage them in a debate, which really turned me off to posting in general for a while. There were fratboy like antics being engaged in by posters & even the moderators of the site ganging up on anyone who dared to disagree with them. That type of stuff is the grade school type of ISH I can't stand.

Appreciate the back & forth & respectful dialogue my dude.

[WeReady]

I accept losing in the first round if there are legitimate circumstances.

I don't think comparing Melo to Lebron is fair. First, Lebron is a better player. Second, Lebron gets everyone involved. He has no problem making the right basketball play at the expense of attempting a game winning shot. Lebron has taken less talent deep into the playoffs because he's played a whole season with them vs Melo playing 2 and a half months with the Knicks' second unit.

JR Starks is a nod to John Starks' infamous playoff game in '94 when he couldn't buy a shot against Houston. JR Smith is a streaky shooter and if he's your second go to guy we're in trouble.

Bright lights or not, to expect Melo to do it by himself is a failure in itself. He knows he can't do it by himself and has publicly called out his team for guys to step up.


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Im just doing the same thing you did in regards to asking me generic questions in regards to Joe Johnson. Why would i mention Ray Allen, or Dwayne Wade when they have nothing to do with the conversation about JJ and melo and whose resume is better? What point does that prove? That JJ is star athlete who is overpaid for his level of production? The same case can be made for Carmelo Anthony, who is no superstar by any stretch of the imagination. Just because he is elite in one skill set dose not mean his overall game is elite.

If you want to accept losing because u set the bar low enough to be just happy to get in the playoffs that fine, but I'm not accepting of that. There is no excuses when our best player compares himself to the Lebron James, therefore he should warrant the same amount of scrutiny. That is what he asked for and is embracing even stated so on several occasion with his sit down with Screaming A Smith. He wants the pressure his words not mines. Therefore there are no excuses for him, and he is not going to continue to get a pass from me until proven otherwise.

[JaYnYcE]

Im just doing the same thing you did in regards to asking me generic questions in regards to Joe Johnson. Why would i mention Ray Allen, or Dwayne Wade when they have nothing to do with the conversation about JJ and melo and whose resume is better? What point does that prove? That JJ is star athlete who is overpaid for his level of production? The same case can be made for Carmelo Anthony, who is no superstar by any stretch of the imagination. Just because he is elite in one skill set dose not mean his overall game is elite.

If you want to accept losing because u set the bar low enough to be just happy to get in the playoffs that fine, but I'm not accepting of that. There is no excuses when our best player compares himself to the Lebron James, therefore he should warrant the same amount of scrutiny. That is what he asked for and is embracing even stated so on several occasion with his sit down with Screaming A Smith. He wants the pressure his words not mines. Therefore there are no excuses for him, and he is not going to continue to get a pass from me until proven otherwise.

I already stated why I would accept losing. Feel free to put words in my mouth though.


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[WeReady]

I already stated why I would accept losing. Feel free to put words in my mouth though.


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How am i putting words in your mouth? Did you not say losing is fine with you? Did you not say that you would take Ray Allen over JJ at this stage of their careers? Did you not put other stars in the topic of conversation that have nothing to do with Carmelo and Joe Johnson? Did you not feel that Carmelo anthony has a better resume than Joe johnson when both resumes are comparable or one is better than the other? U still have not proven why Carmelo is better than JJ at other facets of the game besides scoring?

These are your words and your arguments (even though half of it do not make sense. Dont be mad because you don't have very efficient, sensible counter- arguments to make.

[JaYnYcE]

How am i putting words in your mouth? Did you not say losing is fine with you? Did you not say that you would take Ray Allen over JJ at this stage of their careers? Did you not put other stars in the topic of conversation that have nothing to do with Carmelo and Joe Johnson? These are your words and your arguments (even though half of it do not make sense. Dont be mad because you don't have very efficient, sensible counter- arguments to make.

I'm not gonna argue with you. I've stated my points clearly. I'm new here so rather than say go F yourself, I will politely say have a nice day.


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[WeReady]

I'm not gonna argue with you. I've stated my points clearly. I'm new here so rather than say go F yourself, I will politely say have a nice day.


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I don't know why your taking it so personally its a debate we all don't have to agree

I can tell that your new to this , its ok that you lack basketball knowledge go sit in the corner and let other posters school you, learn something other than Knicks roster

[JaYnYcE]

Telling someone to take their head out of their ass definitely proves your basketball knowledge.


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[WeReady]

Especially when that person jumps from topic to topic and dosen't pay attention to what was posted previously .

Yeah they need to get their head out their ass