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Thread: A Look at James Dolan and this offseason

  1. #16
    Veteran Clyde & The Pearl's Avatar
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    My take? You sign Lin. Who knows where STAT, Melo and Chandler will be in three years? One of them may (god forbid) suffer a career ending injury. Signing Lin gives you a position of strength (PG) to work trades come December.

    Point being in 3 years a move may have to be made if not sooner. I really cant see what all the fuss is about...

  2. #17
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    Originally Posted by NYKnicks15
    That "second" offer sheet was signed before the Knicks worked out a sign and trade with Portland.
    ok maybe it was.

    but even so, they still failed to offer lin the contract first. giving lin reason to doubt. they could have said to him, we will offer you the most we can without incurring the lux tax. so even if another team offers you more we would match it but we cant because we cant afford the lux tax. at least lin will know if knicks dont match its not because they are undervaluing him or trying to be cheap, its for a good reason.

    because you have to expect other teams will try to offer more than the MLE (or poison pill). but I'm just saying no matter what offering the contract first give the knicks an advantage. there's no advantage by letting someone else do it first. I think that was just a really poor tactic.
    Last edited by midnitevoyage; Jul 15, 2012 at 14:11.

  3. #18
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    Originally Posted by WeReady
    you can't hand out MLE money once you hit the apron that is what Larry Coon said so again what type of talent are we attracting to compete with the Miami Heat on Vet Min deals? Once we hit that wall matching Lin is a mistake and I'm glad that knicks are doing something right for once
    It's misinformation like this that make the Knicks not matching seem like a reasonable choice. No, the situation is the same whether or not the Knicks match. No matter what, the Knicks are going to pay some luxury tax, so they won't have the MLE, just the 3 million mini MLE. The only question is how much luxury tax they are going to pay. So no, this decision only comes down to what Dolan is willing to cough up.
    Read: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    and then tell me this is still a basketball move.

    And two more points:
    1. For the people saying the Knicks should have made an offer to begin with: that is not how the process works If you are Jeremy Lin's agent, there is no way that you let him sign for less with the Knicks if the Rockets have 25 million coming to you. Look at the teams over the cap who have to extend restricted free agents who have birds rights, you wait for the best offer and then either match it or let him walk...it's just how it goes.

    2. For people saying Lin is wrong for reneging on the first offer sheet: I outlined earlier how Lin made Dolan a cool 100 million in 2 weeks by ending the Timewarner MSG dispute. Add in all the Jersey sales and season tickets he helped sell, and you can't blame him for taking the extra 5 million when it was offered by Houston.

    The bottom line is the whole situation comes down to Dolan not wanting to spend his money (that is the purpose of this thread), even though he is making a ridiculous profit from the organization, in order to put the best possible team onto the court. Yes, the Knicks will still be a pretty good team, but this is nothing more than a way for him to maximize his own profits.

  4. #19
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    Yes but if they offered him a contract extension before free agency started and other teams had a chance to negotiate with him, they may have been able to work out a deal.

    Once free agency started, you have to deal with the fact that someone might match him to a really unreasonable contract. The moment the season ended, Grunwald should've been on the phone with Lin's agent working on a 3-year 15 million dollar deal. His agent wasn't going to turn down that kind of guaranteed money before free agency even hit, who knows how much you get in free agency.

    But Grunwald decided to let the market dictate his value instead.

  5. #20
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Yes but if they offered him a contract extension before free agency started and other teams had a chance to negotiate with him, they may have been able to work out a deal.

    Once free agency started, you have to deal with the fact that someone might match him to a really unreasonable contract. The moment the season ended, Grunwald should've been on the phone with Lin's agent working on a 3-year 15 million dollar deal. His agent wasn't going to turn down that kind of guaranteed money before free agency even hit, who knows how much you get in free agency.

    But Grunwald decided to let the market dictate his value instead.
    Once the season ended, there is no way that Lin's agent (or any agent) would have accepted an offer without testing his value on the open market. Don't believe the Dolan propaganda that this offer can't be matched or that they lost their chance for a matchable offer. Lin was going to sign the fattest offer sheet put in front of him, just like every other restricted free agent does, and it's up to the Knicks to open their wallets.

  6. #21
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    Originally Posted by BillyHoyle
    Once the season ended, there is no way that Lin's agent (or any agent) would have accepted an offer without testing his value on the open market. Don't believe the Dolan propaganda that this offer can't be matched or that they lost their chance for a matchable offer. Lin was going to sign the fattest offer sheet put in front of him, just like every other restricted free agent does, and it's up to the Knicks to open their wallets.
    Exactly that's the key ONCE THE SEASON ENDED.

    Why wasn't Grunwald calling up his agent the day after the Knicks got eliminated from the playoffs? Why wait until July?

    Hell, why offer him nothing? At least offer him something as a gesture of goodwill.

  7. #22
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    Originally Posted by SSj4Wingzero
    Exactly that's the key ONCE THE SEASON ENDED.

    Why wasn't Grunwald calling up his agent the day after the Knicks got eliminated from the playoffs? Why wait until July?

    Hell, why offer him nothing? At least offer him something as a gesture of goodwill.
    By season ending i mean the end of the playoffs. The only reason to take an early deal for less is the chance that Lin gets a career ending injury. It's why you see guys signing extensions with a year to go on their contract. Once the playoffs were over and Lin's health remained intact (they made sure of it by keeping him out), anybody in their right mind tests the open market. It's just what you do...If you have an asset you try to valuate it before you sell it...You don't just take the first offer.

    The "Gesture of goodwill" was pointless, since he would have ended up signing an offer sheet anyway...it's just what restricted free agents do...they sign offer sheets. Nobody takes a hometown discount on their first big contract...not to mention he was only a Knick for half a season

  8. #23
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    Originally Posted by BillyHoyle
    Last night i was encouraging that everyone just wait a little bit and see how this whole situation would play out. Well, this morning it seems pretty certain that the Knicks won't match Lin's offer. You won't see Alan Hahn or anybody on ESPN say this, mainly because playing up the drama of a hurt relationship makes a better story to write in their dumb columns, but the bottom line is that this is an extremely dangerous precedent that has been set from the perspective of a Knicks fan.

    Here is our situation:
    No matter what we do, and no matter how much money we save over the next three years, we will still be over the cap and likely paying luxury tax, so the best we will have in the offseason are mini MLEs and sign and trades. For people who say Lin isn't worth the money, please just go back and read that last sentence one more time. The bottom line is that money spent this year for the duration of the next 3 years has no bearing on future flexibility, and only effects the wallet of James Dolan.

    However, this thread is not about Jeremy Lin...I'm tired of people going back and forth arguing over whether he is "worth the money," so if that is what your qualm is with my post so far, please just hold on. This is about Dolan and the future of the Knicks organization.

    The biggest thing to draw from this offseason is that the Knicks are not willing to pay significant luxury tax

    Being a large market team, reading that is a very scary thought. Our whole advantage being in NY, the largest television market by far in the US, is that we allegedly do not have to play under the same rules as everyone else.

    Exhibit A: Knicks refuse to sign Landry Fields

    The deal was 5 million for the first 2 years, and 10 million for the third, which has an effective cost on NY of 27 million for year 3. I'm not going to argue for a minute that Landry fields is worth that kind of money, however, the deal is only 3 years, so just like the Lin offer, matching this would only cost money and not flexibility.

    Exhibit B: Knicks *potentially* refuse to sign Jeremy Lin

    This time the deal is 15 million in year 3, which has an effective cost of 40 million for the third year. Once again, I want to say that this thread is not about whether Lin is worth that money.

    Exhibit C: Season ticket prices are set and the MSG T ime Warner deal is done

    This is what I would like replies to focus on (if there are any). Take a look at MSG stock over the last six months:

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    The end of January was when the Timewarner blackout of MSG stood in full effect. Linsanity began on Febuary fourth, with a deal being struck on Febuary 17th (the details of which emerged over the following few days). Notice the immediate two point jump in stock, worth approximately $100 million dollars to the Dolan Family. I'm not going to credit Lin for the entire six point gain since the whole fiasco, but on January 31st, the knicks were a team on a losing streak that nobody would watch. 3 Weeks later, it was an unimaginable crime and hardship to picture a third of New York City cable televisions blacked out to their games.

    That is what Lin did for Dolan: 100 million in 2 weeks, and there is no denying that. However, this is where I get very disgusted. The Timewarner deal is done and old news. There will not be any renegotation, so losing Lin should have a minimal hit on the stock. Moreoever, the stadium will fill out whether or not Lin is there because the Knicks are a playoff team without him. Not matching these two offers is a cool 65 million in profit saved directly by Dolan.

    Now for some foreshadowing
    Why is this important? If we are unwilling to go over the luxury tax for guys like Field and Lin, we will not have the cap flexibility to match S&T cap numbers for our next crop of guys we try to lure to NY. We need to keep in mind that along with being a huge hit to the luxury tax, bumping up the third year of The Fields/Lin contracts also turns them in huge expiring contracts, which are also known as trade assets If 3 years from now there is a guy like Kevin Love saying he won't sign anywhere but NY, we could pretty much offer Lin for Love in a straight up deal, along with throwing in some draftpicks. Match the Landry offer as well, and we could throw in his expiring deal and take back a bad contract.

    The bottom line is that I am very pissed off about the way this offseason is unfolding, and it demonstrates a willingness by Dolan to maximize his profits at the expense of the success of our team

    Am I asking too much for Dolan to empty his wallets given the ticket prices we pay to go to games and market share that MSG currently has? As "ridiculous" as these contracts are, isn't it more ridiculous to see that the largest market in the NBA won't pay up for in the best case scenario, two game changing players, and in the worst case, two nice expiring contracts and trade bait in the next important FA offseason for the Knicks (The year that Chandler and Amare's contracts expire).
    Posting and toasting!

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