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Thread: I wouldn't be surprised of Chandler benefits from Hakeem offensively more than Amar'e

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    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Default I wouldn't be surprised of Chandler benefits from Hakeem offensively more than Amar'e

    Amar'e is a lot better than Chandler is offensively now, but I think Chandler is more smooth. I think Chandler might be able to get a consistent hook shot, and judging from his foul shots, he seems like he can at least be a decent mid-range shooter.

    I still think Amar'e needs to work hard on his ball-handling. It's erratic like J.R.'s, and a lot of times it was plain bad. A post-up game from him would definitely be great, but he rarely has even ever done that, so I don't know how much he could improve on it this summer, whereas Amar'e already has the ability to handle the ball and stuff, just needs to be consistent.

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    Veteran AmareForPresident's Avatar
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    Not really worrying about if Amare's offense will get better from Hakeem, more worried about his defense. And it'd be great if TC can expand his offensive game, it would spread the floor more and we could use another weapon on the offensive end. Good call on Amare's ball-handling, he definitely needs to work on that so he doesn't turn the balll over as much.

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    BALL DON'T LIE MeloforMayor's Avatar
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    I read somewhere that TC cannot make it to the Hakeem sessions with STAT.

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    Originally Posted by MeloforMayor
    I read somewhere that TC cannot make it to the Hakeem sessions with STAT.
    Most likely because of the Olympics.

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    How often do you see guys this late in their careers really develop significantly? Chandler is 29 and has been in the league 11 years. Stat is 29 and has been in the league 10 years. At this point, their games are what they are. I'm not saying to just give up on development, but I'm not very optimistic that we will see either of them transform their skills. What we can hope/expect is for them to come in top physical condition (healthy), ready to play with intensity on both sides of the court, and with a new found chemistry among the starting 5 from a full preseason. If we can see that type of basketball, I think we will be in for a good season, whether or not Chandler can shoot hook shots. Maybe Hakeem can give Stat some good mental advice on maintaining longevity and success as an older player.

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    Amare just needs 1 or 2 moves that can get him from the elbow to the paint. If he can do that he'll be back to 20 & 8.

    Chandler looks like he has rondo hands. Honestly that would be a good guy for him to watch. Somehow the guy still has that shooters touch around the rim even with the freakish hands.


    I think hakeem would help. Problem is hakeem was big but still skinny enough to have nimble hands. Chandlers hands look like they grew big enough to reduce the space between joints thus limiting his range of motion.

    Only way to change that is to stretch like you have arthritis everyday.

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    SWAGABURY KingStarbury3's Avatar
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    I think Chandlers more coordinated at this point then Amare is, Stats clumsy especially on defense

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    Superstar Sage's Avatar
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    If both of them can get 2 post moves that they can commit to memory, that's probably enough, especially for Amare.

    You wanna have a baby hook or something, just enough to keep the defense guessing about what you might do.

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sage
    If both of them can get 2 post moves that they can commit to memory, that's probably enough, especially for Amare.

    You wanna have a baby hook or something, just enough to keep the defense guessing about what you might do.
    STAT's one of the more deliberate and obvious offensive players in the league as an individual though. How many charges were drawn against him last year? Never mind missed FGs from having his sh!t turned back. If he's limted to 2 moves, he doesn't have the mental edge or savvy to do anything other than those 2 moves.

    He needs an across the lane fading jumper and some real tutelage on how to get his body in to the paint away from the ball for a baby hook, as you said. Chandler will not get in his way if he's barreling that 250 pound frame in to the no charge zone, catching, and finishing.

    He's gotta find and refine his jumper.

    Run the P&R/P&P crisply/aggressively. Too passive on screens last season!

    Play a real big man's game - ie MVP SHAQ, who just crashed his way in to the paint and finished within 6 feet of the basket.

    Most importantly, put strength ahead of any finesse. No more iso and penetrate from the key. It doesn't work and won't work on this team. Play a big man's game and play it hard.

    I think an overhaul of his 2010-2011 game ~ from multi faceted scorer ~ is a thing of the past. Adapt and win. Add something to the arsenal once your role has been defined, Amar'e!

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    Super Moderator RunningJumper's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s


    STAT's one of the more deliberate and obvious offensive players in the league as an individual though. How many charges were drawn against him last year? Never mind missed FGs from having his sh!t turned back. If he's limted to 2 moves, he doesn't have the mental edge or savvy to do anything other than those 2 moves.

    He needs an across the lane fading jumper and some real tutelage on how to get his body in to the paint away from the ball for a baby hook, as you said. Chandler will not get in his way if he's barreling that 250 pound frame in to the no charge zone, catching, and finishing.

    He's gotta find and refine his jumper.

    Run the P&R/P&P crisply/aggressively. Too passive on screens last season!

    Play a real big man's game - ie MVP SHAQ, who just crashed his way in to the paint and finished within 6 feet of the basket.

    Most importantly, put strength ahead of any finesse. No more iso and penetrate from the key. It doesn't work and won't work on this team. Play a big man's game and play it hard.

    I think an overhaul of his 2010-2011 game ~ from multi faceted scorer ~ is a thing of the past. Adapt and win. Add something to the arsenal once your role has been defined, Amar'e!
    Amar'e needs to read this post. It's an inspiration.

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    Superstar Sage's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s

    STAT's one of the more deliberate and obvious offensive players in the league as an individual though. How many charges were drawn against him last year? Never mind missed FGs from having his sh!t turned back. If he's limted to 2 moves, he doesn't have the mental edge or savvy to do anything other than those 2 moves.

    He needs an across the lane fading jumper and some real tutelage on how to get his body in to the paint away from the ball for a baby hook, as you said. Chandler will not get in his way if he's barreling that 250 pound frame in to the no charge zone, catching, and finishing.

    He's gotta find and refine his jumper.

    Run the P&R/P&P crisply/aggressively. Too passive on screens last season!

    Play a real big man's game - ie MVP SHAQ, who just crashed his way in to the paint and finished within 6 feet of the basket.

    Most importantly, put strength ahead of any finesse. No more iso and penetrate from the key. It doesn't work and won't work on this team. Play a big man's game and play it hard.

    I think an overhaul of his 2010-2011 game ~ from multi faceted scorer ~ is a thing of the past. Adapt and win. Add something to the arsenal once your role has been defined, Amar'e!
    Yeah, definitely can't argue with that, but I do still have 2010 Amare in my mind, not the one from last season that would just take jumpers from 16 feet away. His first season here when he'd take one dribble and do that little running jumper, that was huge and you could definitely build on that to confuse defenses, which is why I was thinking at the very least 2 would do.

    If that aspect of his game is gone though, then yes he'd need a more complete post game, with both back to the basket and facing the basket moves. Unfortunately you can't learn the footwork required in a couple of sessions, but anything is better than that "stretch 4" garbage we saw last season.

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sage
    Yeah, definitely can't argue with that, but I do still have 2010 Amare in my mind, not the one from last season that would just take jumpers from 16 feet away. His first season here when he'd take one dribble and do that little running jumper, that was huge and you could definitely build on that to confuse defenses, which is why I was thinking at the very least 2 would do.
    But, as we saw so often with Chandler and Melo on the floor last season, he can't effectively be that player anymore. The Knicks immense upgrade at the 5 won't harbor that game anymore with Melo as the best scorer.

    STAT's been demoted, and it's because the team is better with TC and Melo. He has to be the one to change, but he also has to WANT to change. I see that as his primary challenge, personally. And, though it's almost always been the case, he's gonna have to feed off what his team creates for him. Be a finisher that sets up plays for himself off screens and movement alone. He is clearly not a quality ISO player/creator.

    Originally Posted by Sage
    If that aspect of his game is gone though, then yes he'd need a more complete post game, with both back to the basket and facing the basket moves. Unfortunately you can't learn the footwork required in a couple of sessions, but anything is better than that "stretch 4" garbage we saw last season.
    Stretch 4 . That used to frustrate the s h i t out of me.

    The footwork will come with the required aggression and the follow up experience, and trips to the line from an interior game will help get him closer to the numbers he was praised for as a Knick.

    He has to clean the glass, too. If he can get us 11 boards a game without leaving assignments to get them (as he does when attempting to block shots) I'd have no complaints for another career low scoring year.

    16 and 11 with a block and a half and + 50FG%. Tell me I'm not dreaming.

    Realistically, given what we've come accustomed to, I'd say 18 and 8 is more likely.

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    Superstar Sage's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    STAT's been demoted, and it's because the team is better with TC and Melo. He has to be the one to change, but he also has to WANT to change. I see that as his primary challenge, personally. And, though it's almost always been the case, he's gonna have to feed off what his team creates for him. Be a finisher that sets up plays for himself off screens and movement alone. He is clearly not a quality ISO player/creator.
    Felton being back will hopefully bring back his PnR game at least. An average play might consist of high screen and roll, with Novak/other shooter camped on the strong side with Melo Iso on the weak, TC would be weak side just near the baseline I would say. I think sets like that might take advantage of our teams strengths. An alternative would be an up-screen (not sure if that's the term) for TC with Amare as the weak side player.

    You are right though, Amare has very little to offer in terms of creating his own shot, what he did create last season was a bunch of offensive fouls.


    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    The footwork will come with the required aggression and the follow up experience, and trips to the line from an interior game will help get him closer to the numbers he was praised for as a Knick.

    He has to clean the glass, too. If he can get us 11 boards a game without leaving assignments to get them (as he does when attempting to block shots) I'd have no complaints for another career low scoring year.

    16 and 11 with a block and a half and + 50FG%. Tell me I'm not dreaming.

    Realistically, given what we've come accustomed to, I'd say 18 and 8 is more likely.
    See, I feel defensively we don't even need him to be a shot blocker, he needs to stay on his guy and at most just alter shots, TC is the guy that's smart enough to know when to leave his player to block a shot. Amare is not going to learn this stuff now so the Knicks need to make defense very simple for him. "Amare, see that one guy there? See the basket. Go stand between them". There's also the conversation/theory that having the stat sheet filled with blocks isn't always a good thing. If those blocks are just going out of bounds or back to the opposition, you're not really gaining anything. Altering shot + getting the board is more important and that's what he should do.

    16 and 11 is not reaching at all, especially considering he'll probably still be seeing some time at the 5. 16 points is 6FGs and 3 or 4 trips to the line. Those are really conservative numbers and you're right, we should expect that to be higher. Give just about ANYONE in the NBA 30 minutes and they should be able score 6 times and hit some FTs.

    -EDIT-

    Getting back to the original topic a little bit though, I agree with you that he would need MORE than 2 post moves. I probably mispoke and meant at the least, a baby hook off either hand would be a start.
    Last edited by Sage; Jul 23, 2012 at 01:42.

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sage
    Felton being back will hopefully bring back his PnR game at least. An average play might consist of high screen and roll, with Novak/other shooter camped on the strong side with Melo Iso on the weak, TC would be weak side just near the baseline I would say. I think sets like that might take advantage of our teams strengths. An alternative would be an up-screen (not sure if that's the term) for TC with Amare as the weak side player.

    You are right though, Amare has very little to offer in terms of creating his own shot, what he did create last season was a bunch of offensive fouls.
    I like your thinking! Whether or not Mike Woodson implements a screening game for Amar'e at the capacity it would take to help him out as much as he'd like is another thing, however. Most people have agreed that having Ray back will help STAT, but I think Ray having Chandler setting picks will help Ray more.

    TC P&Rs hard. And if I were throwing lobs, I know who I'd prefer to be receiving them. If I were trying to lose my man on a pick, I know who I'd want to be setting that pick: Tyson, The Mad Bison, Chandler. If STAT's jumper is on however, Ray's got options galore as a penetrating guard, and he'll have to have his shot, including a running floater like Tony Parker's, hitting at a good clip. Another add to the extensive X Factor list with Amar'e's name on it.

    All considered, Tyson is the better player at setting picks. As I said before, STAT's gonna have to set, pop and roll with equal precision and physicality to Tyson, just to get the looks he wants, and the confidence Ray, Kidd, Prigs and Woodson want out of him.

    Originally Posted by Sage
    See, I feel defensively we don't even need him to be a shot blocker, he needs to stay on his guy and at most just alter shots, TC is the guy that's smart enough to know when to leave his player to block a shot. Amare is not going to learn this stuff now so the Knicks need to make defense very simple for him. "Amare, see that one guy there? See the basket. Go stand between them". There's also the conversation/theory that having the stat sheet filled with blocks isn't always a good thing. If those blocks are just going out of bounds or back to the opposition, you're not really gaining anything. Altering shot + getting the board is more important and that's what he should do.
    Could not agree more. Nicely said.

    Originally Posted by Sage
    16 and 11 is not reaching at all, especially considering he'll probably still be seeing some time at the 5. 16 points is 6FGs and 3 or 4 trips to the line. Those are really conservative numbers and you're right, we should expect that to be higher. Give just about ANYONE in the NBA 30 minutes and they should be able score 6 times and hit some FTs.

    -EDIT-

    Getting back to the original topic a little bit though, I agree with you that he would need MORE than 2 post moves. I probably mispoke and meant at the least, a baby hook off either hand would be a start.
    I don't know just how much time he'll be seeing at the 5 with Camby back, dude. He was an atrocity there last year.

    I think 16 and 11 is hopeful to be honest. Much higher chance of say.......22 & 7 - more points and less caroms. I'd prefer the 16 and 11 any day.

    We're hoping for a lot, you and I. Seems ridiculous that we're pining for all of these changes out of one of the league's highest paid players, doesn't it?

    Thanks for replying, Sage. Doesn't happen enough on here. On ya' Ozi.

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    Superstar orangeblobman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BillyHoyle
    How often do you see guys this late in their careers really develop significantly? Chandler is 29 and has been in the league 11 years. Stat is 29 and has been in the league 10 years. At this point, their games are what they are. I'm not saying to just give up on development, but I'm not very optimistic that we will see either of them transform their skills. What we can hope/expect is for them to come in top physical condition (healthy), ready to play with intensity on both sides of the court, and with a new found chemistry among the starting 5 from a full preseason. If we can see that type of basketball, I think we will be in for a good season, whether or not Chandler can shoot hook shots. Maybe Hakeem can give Stat some good mental advice on maintaining longevity and success as an older player.
    We do not see if often. At the same time, we're wired for life-long learning.

    I don't see why they can't add a little something to their games at this stage. They might not be able to develop as rapidly as in their younger years, but development is absolutely possible.

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