Are we undervaluing our roster this season, simply because its the New York Knicks?

21 Shump Street

Benchwarmer
Maybe you're right. We'll see..

Going to try to keep my mind open. Though if you're objective, you will agree that he really has done nothing in his career to prove he's much better than an average coach.

Look at his coaching career:



Team Year G W L W?L% Finish PG PW PL PW?L% Result
ATL 2004?05 82 13 69 .159 5th in Southeast ? ? ? ? Missed Playoffs
ATL 2005?06 82 26 56 .317 5th in Southeast ? ? ? ? Missed Playoffs
ATL 2006?07 82 30 52 .366 5th in Southeast ? ? ? ? Missed Playoffs
ATL 2007?08 82 37 45 .451 3rd in Southeast 7 3 4 .429 Lost in First Round
ATL 2008?09 82 47 35 .580 2nd in Southeast 11 4 7 .364 Lost in Conf. Semifinals
ATL 2009?10 82 53 29 .646 2nd in Southeast 11 4 7 .364 Lost in Conf. Semifinals
NYK 2011?12 24 18 6 .750 2nd in Atlantic 5 1 4 .200 Lost in First Round
Career 516 224 292 .434 34 12 22 .353

He really hasn't done anything.. yet.

in his defence he joined Atlanta at the start of their rebuilding phase so the first 3-4 years were always going to be poor. Did show marked improvement every year in the Hawks record.
 

KingCharles34

All Star
In my opinion he proved hes somewhere between average and good as a coach. Sometimes a coaches record can be misleading, lets take Dantoni for example. He had great success in Phoenix but it was really Nash, Matrix, and Stat that had great success. As a matter of fact i havent seen much to convince me yet that Amare and Mike D shouldnt at least give half the money they made post-Phoenix to Nash
 

CoolClyde

Moderator
...Look at his coaching career:

Team Year G W L W–L% Finish PG PW PL PW–L% Result
ATL 2004–05 82 13 69 .159 5th in Southeast — — — — Missed Playoffs
ATL 2005–06 82 26 56 .317 5th in Southeast — — — — Missed Playoffs
ATL 2006–07 82 30 52 .366 5th in Southeast — — — — Missed Playoffs
ATL 2007–08 82 37 45 .451 3rd in Southeast 7 3 4 .429 Lost in First Round
ATL 2008–09 82 47 35 .580 2nd in Southeast 11 4 7 .364 Lost in Conf. Semifinals
ATL 2009–10 82 53 29 .646 2nd in Southeast 11 4 7 .364 Lost in Conf. Semifinals
NYK 2011–12 24 18 6 .750 2nd in Atlantic 5 1 4 .200 Lost in First Round
Career 516 224 292 .434 34 12 22 .353

He really hasn't done anything.. yet.


dislike! haha. thanks Rono, for pointing out how his team's record improved each and every year!

this year's Knicks squad has a core who has played together, the addition of savvy veterans who know how to play and win, and the mobbest deepest bench in the league. not to mention a better slew of PG's, a better defensive mindset and defensive players overall. Woodson has a fine team at his disposal, watch them run rampant over the NBA!
i've got Wood, son!
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
dislike! haha. thanks Rono, for pointing out how his team's record improved each and every year!

this year's Knicks squad has a core who has played together, the addition of savvy veterans who know how to play and win, and the mobbest deepest bench in the league. not to mention a better slew of PG's, a better defensive mindset and defensive players overall. Woodson has a fine team at his disposal, watch them run rampant over the NBA!
i've got Wood, son!

Woodson showed improvement, yes. But w the talent he had I think he should have been able to do more in the playoffs and it should also have translated into more consistency in the regular season..

History shows that his so-called improvement got him nothing but walking paperz. Wonder why that was? His record speaks.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
In my opinion he proved hes somewhere between average and good as a coach. Sometimes a coaches record can be misleading, lets take Dantoni for example. He had great success in Phoenix but it was really Nash, Matrix, and Stat that had great success. As a matter of fact i havent seen much to convince me yet that Amare and Mike D shouldnt at least give half the money they made post-Phoenix to Nash

If what you're asserting holds any water explain to me why Nash hasn't done anything without D'ant and Amare?

No 50+ win seasons

No deep playoff runs.

Nada.

Nash was integral, but it wasn't all about him.
 

p0nder

Starter
rono: yes his record does speak for itself. Has that atlanta team been able to get deep into the playoffs with another coach? Were they even able to replicate his 53 win season? He built that team up as far as they could go with the talent he was given.

Then he steps into the spotlight in MSG and gives us 18-6 with a win against the eventual Champs (which is as much as OKC was able to do) All while dealing with the Lin saga, injuries to Melo, STAT, Lin and Shump and having to clean up the mess D'antoni left him.

He held players accountable, put us back in the playoff picture, gave the players direction for their offseason training, and will be the same tough nose, no-nonsense, defensive minded coach that Knicks fan's love.

I've got to say i'm pretty confident in Woodson as a coach for this roster. I believe that certain teams and coaches fit better together.

In the case of D'antoni his system was built for a run the floor kind of team. With Nash, Johnson, Matrix and Amare he had the kind of small ball, fast as hell team that he thrived with. When he came to NYK he was originally looking at a team that was rebuilding, in to what he thought would be PHX-east. But it turned into a half court team with the Melo trade and his system was not set up to use a 3/4 like Melo who thrives in half-court sets, making his system/coaching style mismatched for the roster.

With Woodson you see a defensive minded coach with very offensive minded players in ATL. Joe Johnson (d'ant pupil) Al Horford, Josh Smith, Mike Bibby, Jamal Crawford etc are all more known for their offensive output then their defensive toughness. He was not matched up with the kind of players he prefers. (remember he was a defensive guru for the 2004 Pistons.) Yet he was able to build that team up from a 13 win club into a 53 win club with a marked winning % improvement every year.

Now we get to see him with a team BUILT for him. Tyson Chandler, Camby, KT, Kidd, Felton, Shump, JR Smith are all above average to great defensive players.

Then with two offensive weapons in MELO and STAT he's given them orders to improve their conditoning and defensive effort this year. If Woodson is able to get MELO and STAT to play defense we are set up for a GREAT season. We have the right mix of players and coaching personnel to get the job done.

I have every confidence in this coach for this team. If D'antoni was still the coach I'd be worried but with Woody at the helm I'm not.
 

CoolClyde

Moderator
rono: yes his record does speak for itself. Has that atlanta team been able to get deep into the playoffs with another coach? Were they even able to replicate his 53 win season? He built that team up as far as they could go with the talent he was given.

Then he steps into the spotlight in MSG and gives us 18-6 with a win against the eventual Champs (which is as much as OKC was able to do) All while dealing with the Lin saga, injuries to Melo, STAT, Lin and Shump and having to clean up the mess D'antoni left him.

He held players accountable, put us back in the playoff picture, gave the players direction for their offseason training, and will be the same tough nose, no-nonsense, defensive minded coach that Knicks fan's love.

I've got to say i'm pretty confident in Woodson as a coach for this roster. I believe that certain teams and coaches fit better together.

In the case of D'antoni his system was built for a run the floor kind of team. With Nash, Johnson, Matrix and Amare he had the kind of small ball, fast as hell team that he thrived with. When he came to NYK he was originally looking at a team that was rebuilding, in to what he thought would be PHX-east. But it turned into a half court team with the Melo trade and his system was not set up to use a 3/4 like Melo who thrives in half-court sets, making his system/coaching style mismatched for the roster.

With Woodson you see a defensive minded coach with very offensive minded players in ATL. Joe Johnson (d'ant pupil) Al Horford, Josh Smith, Mike Bibby, Jamal Crawford etc are all more known for their offensive output then their defensive toughness. He was not matched up with the kind of players he prefers. (remember he was a defensive guru for the 2004 Pistons.) Yet he was able to build that team up from a 13 win club into a 53 win club with a marked winning % improvement every year.

Now we get to see him with a team BUILT for him. Tyson Chandler, Camby, KT, Kidd, Felton, Shump, JR Smith are all above average to great defensive players.

Then with two offensive weapons in MELO and STAT he's given them orders to improve their conditoning and defensive effort this year. If Woodson is able to get MELO and STAT to play defense we are set up for a GREAT season. We have the right mix of players and coaching personnel to get the job done.

I have every confidence in this coach for this team. If D'antoni was still the coach I'd be worried but with Woody at the helm I'm not.
:agreed:
ahhh, what a sweet response, p0nderino! totally agreed.
also, by the time playoffs rolled around, old men Baron and Bibson were running the show, and the Bib alone by game 5. Knicks have shored up the PG position, which as most knowledgeable fans know, is the most important position on a winning Knicks squadron.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
rono: yes his record does speak for itself. Has that atlanta team been able to get deep into the playoffs with another coach? Were they even able to replicate his 53 win season? He built that team up as far as they could go with the talent he was given.

Then he steps into the spotlight in MSG and gives us 18-6 with a win against the eventual Champs (which is as much as OKC was able to do) All while dealing with the Lin saga, injuries to Melo, STAT, Lin and Shump and having to clean up the mess D'antoni left him.

He held players accountable, put us back in the playoff picture, gave the players direction for their offseason training, and will be the same tough nose, no-nonsense, defensive minded coach that Knicks fan's love.

I've got to say i'm pretty confident in Woodson as a coach for this roster. I believe that certain teams and coaches fit better together.

In the case of D'antoni his system was built for a run the floor kind of team. With Nash, Johnson, Matrix and Amare he had the kind of small ball, fast as hell team that he thrived with. When he came to NYK he was originally looking at a team that was rebuilding, in to what he thought would be PHX-east. But it turned into a half court team with the Melo trade and his system was not set up to use a 3/4 like Melo who thrives in half-court sets, making his system/coaching style mismatched for the roster.

With Woodson you see a defensive minded coach with very offensive minded players in ATL. Joe Johnson (d'ant pupil) Al Horford, Josh Smith, Mike Bibby, Jamal Crawford etc are all more known for their offensive output then their defensive toughness. He was not matched up with the kind of players he prefers. (remember he was a defensive guru for the 2004 Pistons.) Yet he was able to build that team up from a 13 win club into a 53 win club with a marked winning % improvement every year.

Now we get to see him with a team BUILT for him. Tyson Chandler, Camby, KT, Kidd, Felton, Shump, JR Smith are all above average to great defensive players.

Then with two offensive weapons in MELO and STAT he's given them orders to improve their conditoning and defensive effort this year. If Woodson is able to get MELO and STAT to play defense we are set up for a GREAT season. We have the right mix of players and coaching personnel to get the job done.

I have every confidence in this coach for this team. If D'antoni was still the coach I'd be worried but with Woody at the helm I'm not.

This is a v gd post. And again all I'm saying is that his record shows that of an average coach. Alot of the above I agree with.

I'm also in agreement w you and others that have been saying he has the team here in NY that fits his style of coaching. He is a gd fit here and should do well given the personnel he has at his disposal. We'll see what he does with it.

I still think MDA is a better coach however. He has the record and playoff appearances to back it up. But he prolly could have done more with the rosters Woodson had in Atlanta for the reasons you state.
 

KingCharles34

All Star
I see no reason why we shouldn't make the Eastern Conference Finals. If we get knocked out in the first round the season will be a failure.

I would have to say Carmelo's and Amare's careers would be a failure as well. Id be very angry and disappointed if we get bounced in the 1st round. Just imagine if the Nets swept us or the Celtics, i would throw my TV out my window and drop kick my computer screen

mindblown.png
 

bluechox2

Benchwarmer
i am surprisingly high on this roster atm, watching this new found commitment on the team and players preaching defense
and improved cohesion among players...

i know most of you saying stat and melo or stat and ty cant do this or that together, but i think we finally turned that corner

first 10 games will only tell
 

21 Shump Street

Benchwarmer
Most undervalued Knicks:
Camby
Thomas
Prigioni

Most overvalued Knicks
Felton
Smith
STAT

Will be interesting to see what Thomas gives us this year. Based on what i've seen from him the last 2 seasons, he should be basically Jeffries with better rebounding and a jump shot. That said, he did seem shaky at times in the preseason, which isn't a good determinant.

Hope Camby plays in 65+ games this regular season :crossfingers:
 

NYk_Reloaded718

★KNICKS-TAPE★
rono: yes his record does speak for itself. Has that atlanta team been able to get deep into the playoffs with another coach? Were they even able to replicate his 53 win season? He built that team up as far as they could go with the talent he was given.

Then he steps into the spotlight in MSG and gives us 18-6 with a win against the eventual Champs (which is as much as OKC was able to do) All while dealing with the Lin saga, injuries to Melo, STAT, Lin and Shump and having to clean up the mess D'antoni left him.

He held players accountable, put us back in the playoff picture, gave the players direction for their offseason training, and will be the same tough nose, no-nonsense, defensive minded coach that Knicks fan's love.

I've got to say i'm pretty confident in Woodson as a coach for this roster. I believe that certain teams and coaches fit better together.

In the case of D'antoni his system was built for a run the floor kind of team. With Nash, Johnson, Matrix and Amare he had the kind of small ball, fast as hell team that he thrived with. When he came to NYK he was originally looking at a team that was rebuilding, in to what he thought would be PHX-east. But it turned into a half court team with the Melo trade and his system was not set up to use a 3/4 like Melo who thrives in half-court sets, making his system/coaching style mismatched for the roster.

With Woodson you see a defensive minded coach with very offensive minded players in ATL. Joe Johnson (d'ant pupil) Al Horford, Josh Smith, Mike Bibby, Jamal Crawford etc are all more known for their offensive output then their defensive toughness. He was not matched up with the kind of players he prefers. (remember he was a defensive guru for the 2004 Pistons.) Yet he was able to build that team up from a 13 win club into a 53 win club with a marked winning % improvement every year.

Now we get to see him with a team BUILT for him. Tyson Chandler, Camby, KT, Kidd, Felton, Shump, JR Smith are all above average to great defensive players.

Then with two offensive weapons in MELO and STAT he's given them orders to improve their conditoning and defensive effort this year. If Woodson is able to get MELO and STAT to play defense we are set up for a GREAT season. We have the right mix of players and coaching personnel to get the job done.

I have every confidence in this coach for this team. If D'antoni was still the coach I'd be worried but with Woody at the helm I'm not.
Great post right here #repped

Most undervalued Knicks:
Camby
Thomas
Prigioni

Most overvalued Knicks
Felton
Smith
STAT
I agree 100 percent with this
 

petescud

Starter
I don't want : White, Thompson, Sims, Shurna, C Smith and Bellfield...what happens if we cut all these guys. Are there any spots still available then
 

welcometonycity

Rotation player
Most undervalued Knicks:
Camby
Thomas
Prigioni

Most overvalued Knicks
Felton
Smith
STAT

I 100% agree on the Undervalue segment. I want to disagree on the overvalued players though.... Hopefully this is our year. STAT NEEDS to back up his talk and i think he will. Just pray for health. Health is wealth.
 

NYk_Reloaded718

★KNICKS-TAPE★
I don't want : White, Thompson, Sims, Shurna, C Smith and Bellfield...what happens if we cut all these guys. Are there any spots still available then
Assuming we still sign Rasheed Wallace, well still have 1 spot left which will probably go to Copeland if he keeps playing the way he is.

Regarding White i believe we signed him to a guaranteed 1 year one mill contract

 

Kidd Karma

Benchwarmer
I don't want : White, Thompson, Sims, Shurna, C Smith and Bellfield...what happens if we cut all these guys. Are there any spots still available then

You should count the players you do want. Easier. Math wise, since camp rosters are maxed at 20, 20 minus the 6 you don't want leaves us with 14 warm bodies, 15 is the opening day max, gives us one spot. Best option is to keep the spot open and watch the final cut down list.
 

Knicks4Life_1985

★The Floor General★
Most people on this board understand what we are. We are a team built around Melo to compete for a title. Coach Woodson has said our lineups are not set in stone and he will play the best players available ( we will see ) at the end of games. I feel as if that was a direct statement to Stat and Felton which should make them want to play even harder only making us better.

I find it hard for people to say we are " overvaluing " those guys. Stat is here to get his 18-22 points from the paint and free throw line , box guys out , make them work for paint points and Felton is here to get the ball to our guys in their sweet spots ( 7 dimes ) and play hard nosed D.

My key to the season is our health:crossfingers: With the veteran presence of Kidd , Thomas , Camby , Pablo and Wallace ( if he makes it ) I find it hard to believe us not making it out of the first round. None of these guys are going to be relied on to carry our team that is the main difference from past years.


Melo will do his thing and each player that was brought in since the trade understands this. I also don't see this staff playing the same games that Coach Dantoni was with minutes. Its going to be about winning basketball this year and for the first time our entire team from the front office to the players are ALL IN. :gony:
 

petescud

Starter
You should count the players you do want. Easier. Math wise, since camp rosters are maxed at 20, 20 minus the 6 you don't want leaves us with 14 warm bodies, 15 is the opening day max, gives us one spot. Best option is to keep the spot open and watch the final cut down list.

Thanks...looking like Copeland imo at this point and White is guaranteed my son says
 
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