Hired Guns

[BillyHoyle]

I'm hoping you guys can help me out a bit with this. I'm all for rooting for the TEAM and not the PLAYERS, but does anyone else feel a bit guilty now that our team is basically entirely hired guns?

With Baseball, sometimes i'll have a similar sentiment with the Yankees, but at least they have had Jeter, Rivera, Pettite, Cano...the core guys are all "true" Yankees. I DESPISE the Heat because of this fact, but even they have Wade.. Also, the team I start to root for once the inevitable happens and the Knicks are out is the Thunder, and it's pretty much because they are a small market team that was built from the ground up.

Is this just a fact of basketball, since rosters are small, that we shouldn't expect to have many "home grown" guys. Just so it's clear, my definition of a "home grown" guy is somebody who really comes into his prime on the team or shows drastic advancement in skill (e.g. Jeremy Lin or Steve Novak last year finding their roles in the NBA or finding guys like Imam/Fields in the draft). I guess with Kurt and Camby back I can take some solace in that, or if Imam can recover from his Knee injury we'll have him. Anyway, just splitting up my list of home grown Knicks and Hired guns:

Home grown: Novak, Shump, Camby, Thomas

Hired Guns: Melo, Chandler, Stat, Felton, Kidd, J.R

Last thing I will say is I probably will forget the guilt i feel if the team starts winning consistently, and will just be happy that there is real basketball in New York again, but it will still probably be in the back of my mind.

Hoping for some thoughts on whether this bothers anybody else, or if they have their own opinion on who the "home grown"/ "true" Knicks are.

[Fat Elvis]

I don't know man - I don't really see things that way. This isn't baseball where you have a farm system guys come up through. Whether a guy gets drafted by us doesn't seem like that big of a deal. What's more important is how committed they are to playing for the knicks, imo

[Lercher]

@Billy: there is no such a thing as home gown player in the NBA, a guy who's born and raised in IL and is probably a die hard Bulls fan isn't home grown even if he's drafted by the Knicks. If there were franchise youth academies instead of college basketball we could talk about home grown talents, but within the system this league operates such a thing simply doesn't exist.

[BillyHoyle]

I don't know man - I don't really see things that way. This isn't baseball where you have a farm system guys come up through. Whether a guy gets drafted by us doesn't seem like that big of a deal. What's more important is how committed they are to playing for the knicks, imo

So you don't see a difference between teams like the Lakers/Heat/Nets and Thunder in this regard? Would you say what makes the Thunder so easy to root for isn't that they built their team from the ground up, but just that it's a good group of guys while the Heat are spoiled dicks?

I dunno...There's just something about guys who are able to really stick with their team and become a part of the city that I think is great in sports. Clyde/Ewing, Jordan/Chicago, Miller/Pacers Bird/Celtics Magic/Lakers...I know these are some of the all time greats and they had the option to stay, but how about a fan favorite like John Starks? Trading one of these guys would have been a bit disappointing, even if what they were getting back was better (Think Bynum/Howard deal).

[Kidd Karma]

Free agency is a major part of the NBA landscape. No minor league system is big, yet you still have a guy like Kobe, guys that land in major markets, will rarely leave....at least the franchise players, Derrick Rose is a rare exception. Now you can go to player who play on one team, Kobe, Dirk, Duncan as "homegrown." Kobe and Dirk did not have big rookie years, they struggled a lot. I think it's just different sports, contracts are capped in the NBA, so free agency is reached every 4-5 years. MLB has no caps on contracts, once you get to a major market, ala Cano, Jeter and Rivera, you don't want to go to KC for 25% more money....if KC offers it. I look at a guy like Alfonso Soriano, if he had his choice, he would probably have stuck in NY, at less money. Did Jeremy Lin go from virtually nothing to developing a career in less than a month? No, he didn't have opportunity. You can't develop a player in less than a month. I think his rookie season, he wasn't ready to compete, if he had the 40 minutes, no way he'd put the same numbers his rookie year. The guy saw what he lacked, hired a trainer and worked hard in the summer to develop the strength to compete, he had the knowledge of the game from growing up, but strength is what he lacked. You look at his Harvard years, he improved each year. Lin was in the right place at the right time, there was opportunity and he didn't waste it.

[Oldtimer]

I can commiserate with BillyHoyle, but I would define it less as guilt than as concern.

For over a decade we have been less than mediocre and at the same time well over the applicable salary caps. Our mediocrity should have positioned us for a series of worthwhile draft picks. Yet on our current team we have only one player that we drafted --Iman Shumpert. We have a draft pick next year, but not in 2014. We are salary capped out for three more years. There is not much room for trades. Kidd, Camby and Thomas are at the very end of their careers and I believe that at least Kidd and Camby have three year guaranteed contracts. Melo is going nowhere, and that is fine with me. I do not think other teams will be interested in Amare' given his contract and what might be diminishing skills. I hope he turns it around this year. I would not want to trade Chandler.

The bottom line is that there will not be much "growth" in our team over the next three years because there is very little room for any change. We could be very good, and I mean extremely good, but I am apprehensive.

On the other hand, teams like Oklahoma City and now Denver and even Minnesota and New Orleans have or are building around a core of young players. Fans of those teams can get excited about improvement from year to year. We are currently cashed in. We have a three year time frame before there can be significant changes. We must do very well this year, because we are going to have the same, but older, team next year and the year after.

[CA7]

I can commiserate with BillyHoyle, but I would define it less as guilt than as concern.

For over a decade we have been less than mediocre and at the same time well over the applicable salary caps. Our mediocrity should have positioned us for a series of worthwhile draft picks. Yet on our current team we have only one player that we drafted --Iman Shumpert. We have a draft pick next year, but not in 2014. We are salary capped out for three more years. There is not much room for trades. Kidd, Camby and Thomas are at the very end of their careers and I believe that at least Kidd and Camby have three year guaranteed contracts. Melo is going nowhere, and that is fine with me. I do not think other teams will be interested in Amare' given his contract and what might be diminishing skills. I hope he turns it around this year. I would not want to trade Chandler.

The bottom line is that there will not be much "growth" in our team over the next three years because there is very little room for any change. We could be very good, and I mean extremely good, but I am apprehensive.

On the other hand, teams like Oklahoma City and now Denver and even Minnesota and New Orleans have or are building around a core of young players. Fans of those teams can get excited about improvement from year to year. We are currently cashed in. We have a three year time frame before there can be significant changes. We must do very well this year, because we are going to have the same, but older, team next year and the year after.

I dont feel our objective should be to worry about other teams

Carmelo has a game that ages well, Chandler will be himself for the next few years no worries, Smith if he can ever get it together will give us scoring for the next few years, Shumpert is Shumpert, Novak's shot is forever, STAT is pretty skilled and should be fine, Felton is a question mark how will he impact us. Our 2013 1st Rounder will add a young guy to develop, We got some young guys we're looking at Malcolm Thomas, Tony Taylor, John Shurna and Henry Sims would be great to develop. We also will have some money in 2015 and if our core can make some noise and regain the prestige we can add another max player to build around. Carmelo will be our Pierce, Shumpert is our Rondo, Chandler our Garnett, hopefully Woody is like Doc and we just keep building on our potential success

[petescud]

Jorts is a Heat Benchwarmer

[p0nder]

I don't see Melo or STAT as "hired guns". Sure they came in free agency but they embraced NYK basketball to the fullest. The only hired gun i felt we picked up was ronnie brewer because he only got a 1 year contract and we probably won't be able to afford him (if he gets right and plays to his potential) outside of that I don't see a lot of hired guns here. Miami seems to pick up a lot more of them then we do at any rate. our players seem committed and ready to go. Even a guy like Baron Davis wants to stick around in some capacity, that speaks to continuity... knickstape right?

[BillyHoyle]

I don't see Melo or STAT as "hired guns". Sure they came in free agency but they embraced NYK basketball to the fullest. The only hired gun i felt we picked up was ronnie brewer because he only got a 1 year contract and we probably won't be able to afford him (if he gets right and plays to his potential) outside of that I don't see a lot of hired guns here. Miami seems to pick up a lot more of them then we do at any rate. our players seem committed and ready to go. Even a guy like Baron Davis wants to stick around in some capacity, that speaks to continuity... knickstape right?

What I meant by hired guns were guys who were already established and effective NBA players when they came to NY, which can be said about STAT, Melo, and Chandler. This is different from a guy like David Lee, John Starks, or Patrick Ewing, who we all saw develop into very good players.

My point was that I tend to root for teams like the Thunder, Grizzlies, or even Chicago, over teams like Miami, Lakers, Clippers, or Boston. I'm not saying i like any of these teams more than the Knicks, but if it's Chicago vs Miami in the eastern conference finals...I want to see Chicago sweep in 4. After Miami formed their big 3, it felt like they were taking an easy way out and cheating the system....Now that we have a core of "hired guns", i'm just curious if any of you think it is a little bit less sweet than when we had Ewing/starks, etc. It seems like the consensus here is that it doesn't matter, which i respect because first and foremost we want to have a winning team...I just have difficulty getting this thought out of the back of my mind.

[CoolClyde]

this is a good thread and food for thought. with the Knicks' hired guns, and I
agree Chandler, Melo and STAT are hired guns, along with JR Swish, Brewer,
Felton, Kidd, Camby & Kurt (I can't consider the latter pair homegrown,
being away from the roost so long), Shumpstein is the only homegrown NYK product.

- the horrid pairing, thus far, of STAT and Melo is most irksome, as their combined salaries
will cost the Knicks for the next 3 years in terms of not being able to sign anyone decent (goodbye Lin).
- the loss of David Lee to make room for LeBone sucked major ballz, as did the loss of 1/2 the team
for Melo (losing homegrown Italian, Russian, and Weedson Chandler products)
- losing Jordan Hill to make room for McGrody and cap space

maybe some of these losses of homegrown don't look bad on paper, but the fact that
our top picks have been traded for sheeit to make salary cap room for hired guns, or traded
outright for smelly Curry-like players, makes you wonder if Isiah has been pulling Dolan's strings all along?

I always root for the team with the young guns, rather than the hired guns, and OKC vs Miami
is a prime example. f*ck the (c)heat, whose big 3 colluded to play together, f*ck the celtdicks,
who just suck big green sh*ts in the first place, and f*ck the Lakers, whose GM just makes the
Knicks look bad in each and every deal they pull off.

If any of the Knicks training camp invites make the team (doubtful), they'll be homegrown,
but it's pitiful that most of the team is hired gunners.

but that's where we're at. win now with what we've got, so you might as well build
from the wheelchair up.

good thread Billy Hoyle, you can't jump.

[Munchen13]

Small market teams like thunder and spurs don't face the same pressure as big market teams like: lakers, celtics, heat and knicks.

Thats why lakers had to bring shaq, heat also brought shaq then years after they brought lebron, celtics had to get KG and Allen.. Knicks brought stat, melo and tyson.

It's how sports are being run no matter what kind of sport it is.
I am a die hard Bayern Munchen fan; a great german force in the world of soccer. They are the number 1 team in germany and one of the elite team in europe.. They, and other elite soccer teams pay ridiculous amount of money to get players, why? Because they are expected to win. They don't face the same pressure as other average teams, thats why they have to HIRE GUNS.

It worked with lakers, heat and celtics... why not us? History doesnt care about hired guns or home boy, it only cares about glory.
As a fan, i wanna feel that glory!

At last, sport is a business, for owners and players.