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Thread: I'm calling you out... nothing personal. The PG debate.

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Cool I'm calling you out... nothing personal. The PG debate.

    A while ago I made a statement to the effect that with Felton, Kidd, and Prigioni... we may have the best PG trio in the NBA.

    I know that is a stretch and it was early (I believe the pre-season) but... consider:

    - We don't have an uber athletic Westbrook
    - We don't have an attacking/driver the likes of Rose
    - We don't have an assist stat machine such as Rondo

    But what do we have?

    1st we have solid passers
    2nd unselfish PG's
    3rd underestimated PG's (Felt is fat, Kidd is old, Prig is not NBA seasoned)
    4th chemistry- between Kidd & Felt they have played with Stat, TC, & JR
    5th our PG's are cool, calm, and collected

    The issue I have is with Metrocard. Nothing personal as I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you were not a believer in Ray Felt.

    While I can understand your position based on last year with the lock-out and Felt coming in uninspired and overweight, I'm starting to see you capitulating.

    You've posted things such as:
    "I just have no faith in Felton...", "I don't believe Felton is the missing piece to a Championship", "I doubt Felton, feel like his skills are too mediocre"

    And while lately you have changed your tune to the likes of..."my penis is hard, Felton is amazing", I was a bit disappointed in your initial reaction and outlook.

    While I can agree that a player can change our opinions based on their performance, I feel like:
    A) you slept on Felton as well as our PG trio early without giving them a shot
    B) you crave for a nearly impossible to get superstar at that position

    But mostly I feel that as a resident poster here forever, with the BB knowledge many respect you for, it was a big let down to read your short-sighted, pessimistic views. Especially so early.

    If there's one thing I learned it's that it doesn't necessarily take the "best" to be the best; Nor to beat the best.

    Really it's about fit, cohesion, and with the PG's especilly getting others involved & locking down on D. We don't need an "all-star" line-up. What we do need is for our players to believe.

    As I like to say (Red-ism); it's not who's better... it's can you beat them? We have proven we can beat the HEAT (both last playoffs and this year)
    But, nothing can happen if we don't first BELIEVE!

    I hope (again nothing personal) our trio lead by Ray Felton can help you believe and rethink those off the cuff comments you made earlier. As a fighter, I know you have an idea of what it's like being underestimated. It can be motivating. And from what I've seen

    Our PG's (and team) are going to take many by surprise. By the time they realize what hit them, it'll be too late. Be a leader and have faith.

    And don't forget about 6th... they are hungry, selfless, and as Felt said, they have a chip on their shoulder. Time to prove em' wrong. I just didn't expect you to be part of the doubters.

    Below is an inspiring article on Felt. One.
    Last edited by Crazy⑧s; Nov 08, 2012 at 20:23.

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    I know I should post in the "official player thread"

    But really I don't like that. New topics get lost in the shuffle.

    Enjoy from: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    The last time he felt this way was 2005. Raymond Felton was a junior guard for a North Carolina Tar Heels team that would win the national championship. The strength of that team was its chemistry, Felton was saying yesterday; the kind of chemistry he senses the Knicks are building.
    “It’s just the way we communicate and we bond,” Felton said after a lengthy practice session at the Knicks’ training facility. “It’s amazing. I haven’t been part of something like this since college. Everybody gets along, that chemistry you feel, that energy. It’s kind of like when I was in college and won it in ’05. To have that special energy again gives me a good feeling.”
    What makes the Knicks feel good is Felton has already made everyone forget about Jeremy Lin, at least for now. A 3-0 start combined with how quickly Felton has emerged as a team leader has erased any second-guessing about whether the Knicks should have matched the Rockets’ $25.1 million deal for Linsanity.
    Perhaps when Lin makes his visit to the Garden on Dec. 17, his departure will be revisited, but it won’t be regretted. Based on early returns, Felton could be headed toward a break-out season where he establishes himself as one of the NBA’s elite point guards. That stature has eluded him during his seven-year career, thanks in part to the instability around him.
    He never was surrounded by quality talent while with the Bobcats, and was just getting comfortable at Madison Square Garden when the Knicks traded him to Denver in the 2010 deal for Carmelo Anthony. Felton never quite fit in with the Nuggets, and last season in Portland was a disaster because of the lockout.
    Now he not only finds himself back with the Knicks, but running a veteran team with point-guard support from future Hall of Famer Jason Kidd.
    “When you have guys with IQs as high as these guys on this team and have been in the league for a while, have been in big games, been in championship games and won championships, it makes my job that much easier,” Felton said.
    After three games, Felton is averaging 13.7 points and six assists per game, while shooting 44.4 percent from the field. More impressive is the rhythm he has established on offense. When the shooters have room the ball moves to the open man. When the shooters are covered, he’ll penetrate to draw the defense. His use of the pick-and-roll normally results in a successful play and his aggressiveness on the defense has filtered to his teammates.
    “It’s that competitive spirit, going at each other in practice and then we go at the other teams even more,” Felton said. “All it’s about is making each other better to go against other people.”
    It helps Felton played with Tyson Chandler in Charlotte, Marcus Camby in Portland, and J.R. Smith in Denver. It also helps having Kidd for support.
    “He’s done a great job telling me when to use the screen and roll and how to use it,” Felton said, “also when to use your speed and when not to use your speed. He’s been great to me. He’s been great to everybody. He’s basically like a mentor, coach, player, whatever else you want to call it. He’s been everything for our team.”
    The fact he reported to the Trail Blazers out of shape following the lockout serves as a source of motivation for Felton. That won’t define his career.
    “You grow as a person by going through things in your job and your career,” he said. “It definitely made me a better pro and a better person. I take everything with a grain of salt and I take everything as a blessing, even the hard times.”
    Felton is happy to be back in New York where he “left with some stuff unfinished.”
    It includes building the kind of chemistry that can build a championship.
    What do you think?

  3. #3
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    CoolClyde's Avatar
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    really well thought out thread red. head.
    i agree, Knicks trio of PGs are best in league.

    Felt-ton is in best shape of his career, seems to be back to form he was in before "the trade", and
    has yet to play with Amar'e again, with whom his P&R skills, dishing&swishing were best displayed.

    then again, we're only 3 games in. but it does feel so good. reunited.

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    Nice thread Red. You beat me to it because with this start, "Team Lin" should have some crow to eat. Much ado about nothing over a glorified d-leaguer whose "Thunder" just got stolen by James Hardin. We have a nice rotation at PG that should improve on the defensive/athleticism end when Shump gets back. As for now we have guys that can breakdown opposing defenses and knock down open looks. That's all you need when you have formidable frontline scorers like the KNICKs have. Beast of the East welcome back Knicks!

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    Superstar elcol's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    Nice thread Red. You beat me to it because with this start, "Team Lin" should have some crow to eat. Much ado about nothing over a glorified d-leaguer whose "Thunder" just got stolen by James Hardin. We have a nice rotation at PG that should improve on the defensive/athleticism end when Shump gets back. As for now we have guys that can breakdown opposing defenses and knock down open looks. That's all you need when you have formidable frontline scorers like the KNICKs have. Beast of the East welcome back Knicks!
    You are misunderstanding. The issue was never about how "Team Lin" was better than Felton or the other way around. The issue was that the Knicks were losing Lin for completely nothing. They could have signed him for nothing and gotten trade pieces from Houston in return even but they chose to let him go for absolutely nothing.

  6. #6
    Quiet Storm New New York's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    Nice thread Red. You beat me to it because with this start, "Team Lin" should have some crow to eat. Much ado about nothing over a glorified d-leaguer whose "Thunder" just got stolen by James Hardin. We have a nice rotation at PG that should improve on the defensive/athleticism end when Shump gets back. As for now we have guys that can breakdown opposing defenses and knock down open looks. That's all you need when you have formidable frontline scorers like the KNICKs have. Beast of the East welcome back Knicks!

    Just looked on NBA.com to compare Lin and Felton stats and the result would suggest Lin was playing better til you look deeper.

    lets first look at the stat lines for both

    Lin

    13.0 PPG 5.5 rebs 7.0 assist and 3.0 steals

    Shooting numbers: FG 36% 3pt 23% FT 92%

    Felton

    13.7 3.0 rebs 6.0 assist and 1.7 steals

    Shooting numbers:FG 44% 3pt 37% FT 75%

    Really the shooting numbers say it all but lets dig a little deeper

    1st off Lin is playing 8 more minutes per game so Felton would pass him in assist and would be closer in rebounds if they played the same amount of minutes



    Opponents for Houston

    DEN 105 ppg allowed week 1
    Portland 101 ppg allowed week 1
    Atl 104 ppg allowed week 1
    Detroit 108 ppg allowed week 1

    Lin is benefiting from playing against teams that simply don't defend well.

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Great thread, Red, said Fred.

    There have been plenty of doubters for Felton, not just Metrocard. I don't think their doubt was completely unjustified after Ray's season in Portland, but the faith in his heart - sounds a bit extreme - is what was unfairly doubted.

    Walsh also revealed that he attempted to trade for Felton last season but was told by Charlotte Bobcats coach Larry Brown, "Donnie, I can't trade his heart." http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5374652

    And now, as he's playing alongside Kidd, getting the tutelage to help him on his way, Ray's only concern is finding consistency and self control. As great as he's been for us over these initial 3 games, there have been patches of play where his frustration has dictated his output.

    Emotion has brought Ray surging back to form, but his emotions are also what lulls him in to that trademark mid-game slump.

    I've been looking for individual stats that show output per quarter. Any ideas? I'm specifically looking for Ray's first quarter numbers, as I think he is the ultimate starting PG for us, because he comes out with energy. I'm yet to find them. The 1st is Ray's best quarter.


    Originally Posted by New New York

    13.7 3.0 rebs 6.0 assist and 1.7 steals

    Shooting numbers:FG 44% 3pt 37% FT 75%

    Really the shooting numbers say it all but lets dig a little deeper

    1st off Lin is playing 8 more minutes per game so Felton would pass him in assist and would be closer in rebounds if they played the same amount of minutes



    Opponents for Houston

    DEN 105 ppg allowed week 1
    Portland 101 ppg allowed week 1
    Atl 104 ppg allowed week 1
    Detroit 108 ppg allowed week 1

    Lin is benefiting from playing against teams that simply don't defend well.
    Thanks for the stats, NNY!

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    ★The Floor General★ Knicks4Life_1985's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    I know I should post in the "official player thread"

    But really I don't like that. New topics get lost in the shuffle.

    Enjoy from: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


    What do you think?

    This is a good post not to go to far off topic but I said the same about Rashard Lewis. People laughed when I said bring him to NY , when guys who feel they are entitled to stuff end up on bad teams they shut it down sometimes. In the NBA their cash is coming one way or another so that is how you have out of shape cancers Curry ( Knicks ) , ( Boris) Bobcats , and Felton ( Blazers ) to name a few.

    Good post on your OP and great read.

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    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    I know I should post in the "official player thread"

    But really I don't like that. New topics get lost in the shuffle.
    I completely agree. It'd be a shame to let it keep happening.

    Articles with links + posts the likes of your OP deserve to be left alone, and easily available for review. The effort you'd have to put in to dig posts back up, find and quote replies on the posts etc in all the mess is just bad organisation.

    They are good for keeping some of the less interesting stuff jumbled together, but to lose big news and great threads like yours just Fs the site and makes it look unused, unloved.

  10. #10
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by CoolClyde
    really well thought out thread red. head.
    i agree, Knicks trio of PGs are best in league.

    Felt-ton is in best shape of his career, seems to be back to form he was in before "the trade", and
    has yet to play with Amar'e again, with whom his P&R skills, dishing&swishing were best displayed.

    then again, we're only 3 games in. but it does feel so good. reunited.
    Originally Posted by Knicks4Life_1985
    This is a good post not to go to far off topic but I said the same about Rashard Lewis. People laughed when I said bring him to NY , when guys who feel they are entitled to stuff end up on bad teams they shut it down sometimes. In the NBA their cash is coming one way or another so that is how you have out of shape cancers Curry ( Knicks ) , ( Boris) Bobcats , and Felton ( Blazers ) to name a few.

    Good post on your OP and great read.
    Thanks.

    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    Nice thread Red. You beat me to it because with this start, "Team Lin" should have some crow to eat. Much ado about nothing over a glorified d-leaguer whose "Thunder" just got stolen by James Hardin. We have a nice rotation at PG that should improve on the defensive/athleticism end when Shump gets back. As for now we have guys that can breakdown opposing defenses and knock down open looks. That's all you need when you have formidable frontline scorers like the KNICKs have. Beast of the East welcome back Knicks!
    Originally Posted by New New York
    Just looked on NBA.com to compare Lin and Felton stats and the result would suggest Lin was playing better til you look deeper.

    lets first look at the stat lines for both

    Lin

    13.0 PPG 5.5 rebs 7.0 assist and 3.0 steals

    Shooting numbers: FG 36% 3pt 23% FT 92%

    Felton

    13.7 3.0 rebs 6.0 assist and 1.7 steals

    Shooting numbers:FG 44% 3pt 37% FT 75%

    Really the shooting numbers say it all but lets dig a little deeper

    1st off Lin is playing 8 more minutes per game so Felton would pass him in assist and would be closer in rebounds if they played the same amount of minutes



    Opponents for Houston

    DEN 105 ppg allowed week 1
    Portland 101 ppg allowed week 1
    Atl 104 ppg allowed week 1
    Detroit 108 ppg allowed week 1

    Lin is benefiting from playing against teams that simply don't defend well.
    This **** is funny. Somehow I should of guessed NYK would bring the heat

    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    I completely agree. It'd be a shame to let it keep happening.

    Articles with links + posts the likes of your OP deserve to be left alone, and easily available for review. The effort you'd have to put in to dig posts back up, find and quote replies on the posts etc in all the mess is just bad organisation.

    They are good for keeping some of the less interesting stuff jumbled together, but to lose big news and great threads like yours just Fs the site and makes it look unused, unloved.
    I thought you were going to start independent threads then after a while add them to the player thread?

    ANywhooo... I said best "trio". Is that a stretch?

    Sure we don't have a super-duper star and other teams do. We have a great combo of guards including the 2's. Really I just see staying away from injury as the biggest potential obstacle.

    And for some reason I'm not worried about that. I feel like these vets know what's up and go at about 90%- making sure to not be overaggressive and risk injury. Then save the extra gear for the post-season.

    We keep gaining those big leads, and no player should be overextended with our depth and coach's willingness to ration out minutes. I'll reserve the team judgement until 20 games, but our PG's are more than we could ask for... especially because they are unselfish non-super stars who don't need the rock.

    Did you see Felt control the offense, and take over when we were struggling?
    Get dudes involved?
    Thats a floor general.

    Did you see Prigioni hustle and pick multiple pockets? See him gain confidence and begin to launch the high-arcing Lin-esk' jumper? Then talk things over with the coolest NBA coach?
    Potential.

    How about the vet Kidd racking up assists off the muscle? He was coaching dudes up, D-ing up everyone, running the 2, knocking down the trey, penetrating then dishing and swishing.

    Then he took like half the game off and sat on the bench because we were blowing them out. I love it.

    Let's just agree, we have confidence this trio can cause havoc when playing at the top of their games.

  11. #11
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    ^

    No, I absolutely agree. I mean, the trio's efforts speak for themselves. And their games are all so different, but not one of them negates the offence.

    Kidd leads, scores, defends and creates.

    Pablo controls, sets up wonderfully off the pick, defends and creates.

    Ray attacks, defends, comes off screens to get open and creates.

    And all of them rebound.

    It's a trifecta of versatility.

    I only really highlighted Felton because you did so yourself, and I'm a huge fan of his electric play in the opening quarters. He and Melo really set the tone, and the rest follow along faithfully.

  12. #12
    Veteran knicksin60's Avatar
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    I know the Knicks are playing their best basketball they've played in a long time but like a poster mentioned earlier, it is only three games.Some teams have a tendency to start the season overachieving (See 2008-09 Knicks). Not that I believe the Knicks don't have the talent or the ability to finish number one in the Atlantic division but let's see if their front court will continue to have this success after 30 games in to the season.One thing that made the Knicks of the 90's an exciting team to follow was that their players played great basketball from the start of the regular season until the end of the regular season and their success was carried into the playoffs.Last season there were several periods in which Knick fans were picking the Knicks to be a top 4 seed in the EC and upset the Heat in the playoffs and were let down each time.Knick fans over the years have been categorized as the most bipolar fans of any sports team.While it is good to enjoy watching Felton, Kidd, and Prigioni look great on the court we have to be emotionally prepared for those stretches in which they slump.

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