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Thread: New Pringles Flavor- LA Laker edition

  1. #76
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    Originally Posted by fender0577
    I read it right the first time, the triangle is a better offense than SSOL, you disagree?
    Triangle offense it the most overrated offense of all time, and it would never be what it is without having two top 5 players in Kobe and Shaq.

    Imagine if Isiah Thomas implemented a triangle offense with Crawford and Curry back in 2005. How far would that go?

    07-09 Lakers averaged as a team a Offense Rating of 112.9 (Offense produced per 100 possessions

    D'Antoni's teams averaged 114.

    Both were very good offenses but D'Antoni was elite at getting maximal production out of lesser players.

    Raja Bell averaged 15 points one season, never got close to that without D'Antoni.

    Barbosa
    Diaw
    Even freaking Tim Thomas.

    Shawn Marion would of been a 14-15 ppg scorer on most teams in the NBA, in Phoenix his quick bounce ability and skill around the rim was utilized to it's full potential. It was great to watch a guy play his game.

    Joe Johnson got so many open looks his last season in Phoenix, he shot a career best .478 percent from the 3pt line.

    Remember Jim Jackson? NBA vet? Career .360 3pt shooter? Dude shot .459 at Phoenix. The amount of open looks players got in Phoenix was off the chain.

    Lakers offense solely depended on Shaq and Kobe's ability to dominate, Shaq's ability to draw double teams. It was more of the players than the system.

    D'Antoni's system got Nash two MVP's, made the Knicks give Amar'e all that money for him when he was never worth that value, made Marion an elite SF on both ends of the floor, saved Raja Bell's career. Gave Boris Diaw a chance when the Hawks gave up on him. Turned late first round pick Barbosa into a quality role player.


    These were D'Antoni's reserves back in 05-06.

    10 Leandro Barbosa
    12 Andre Barrett
    15 Josh Davis
    23 Sharrod Ford
    55 Brian Grant
    50 Eddie House
    21 Jim Jackson
    22 James Jones
    40 Kurt Thomas
    2 Tim Thomas
    1 Dijon Thompson
    15 Nikoloz Tskitishvili

    He turned that into a very productive bench.

    It's just simply on offense, the Championship Lakers teams had superior defense. We were talking about offense...made no sense to bring up a championship when it requires an entire balance of O and D to win that.

    For example, the 01-02 Lakers had a defense rating of 105.8, 7th in the NBA at the time.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Stats dont lie.

  2. #77
    Evacuee Crazy⑧s's Avatar
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    Question Mark 'Antoni?

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Triangle offense it the most overrated offense of all time, and it would never be what it is without having two top 5 players in Kobe and Shaq.
    Overrated? Tex Winter's brainchild offence was worked to perfection with the likes of Luc Longley. You don't need 2 top 5 players to run it at all. Though when 2 were, SHAQ and Kobe, it ripped the league to smithereens. It was designed, as far as I recall, to defeat the likes of Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson back in the day with its versatile and cognitive approach, and it worked. It's what got him (Winter) in to the NBA Hall of Fame. It took Ron Artest months to come near to using it effectively - Jordan, basketball's living legend, struggled with it, as well.

    The best part of the triangle is its versatility, and its reactionary success to defences. It has variations for the intensity of any defence, and forces weaknesses in what appears to be an impenetrable, tight pressured D.

    It also adds more versatility for an inside~outside game than D'Antoni's offence. It's a better offence in the sense of versatility by far. D'Antoni's O makes the game that of a wing player, Winter's offence picks team's weaknesses apart offensively, and bolsters any players talents regardless of how limited they are. It can maintain a focal at each position. D'Antoni's is set to serve and favour a prototypical player. The triangle brought out the best in O'Neal, and also provided a niché for any roleplaying no-name along the way, Longley being the perfect example.

    D'Antoni's O is top notch, but the triangle surpasses it in its timelessness and its effectiveness regardless of who's implementing it. D'Antoni's small-ball suits teams with Amar'e Stoudemire at the 5, and that can be countered far easier than the multi-faceted .

    You can throw around stats all you want, but when you talk about the lopsided inputs of O&D with D'Antoni, you'd get lost in the disparities. The triangle forced cohesion and understanding, D'Antoni would just run defences ragged at the cost of his own defence.

    △ > 'Antoni.

  3. #78
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    Overrated? Tex Winter's brainchild offence was worked to perfection with the likes of Luc Longley. You don't need 2 top 5 players to run it at all. Though when 2 were, SHAQ and Kobe, it ripped the league to smithereens. It was designed, as far as I recall, to defeat the likes of Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson back in the day with its versatile and cognitive approach, and it worked. It's what got him (Winter) in to the NBA Hall of Fame. It took Ron Artest months to come near to using it effectively - Jordan, basketball's living legend, struggled with it, as well.

    The best part of the triangle is its versatility, and its reactionary success to defences. It has variations for the intensity of any defence, and forces weaknesses in what appears to be an impenetrable, tight pressured D.

    It also adds more versatility for an inside~outside game than D'Antoni's offence. It's a better offence in the sense of versatility by far. D'Antoni's O makes the game that of a wing player, Winter's offence picks team's weaknesses apart offensively, and bolsters any players talents regardless of how limited they are. It can maintain a focal at each position. D'Antoni's is set to serve and favour a prototypical player. The triangle brought out the best in O'Neal, and also provided a niché for any roleplaying no-name along the way, Longley being the perfect example.

    D'Antoni's O is top notch, but the triangle surpasses it in its timelessness and its effectiveness regardless of who's implementing it. D'Antoni's small-ball suits teams with Amar'e Stoudemire at the 5, and that can be countered far easier than the multi-faceted .

    You can throw around stats all you want, but when you talk about the lopsided inputs of O&D with D'Antoni, you'd get lost in the disparities. The triangle forced cohesion and understanding, D'Antoni would just run defences ragged at the cost of his own defence.

    △ > 'Antoni.
    You my friend, are a very intelligent individual.Well said, +1.

  4. #79
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    can't believe the life of this thread. it's like beating the dead JLin horse.

    i don't understand the defense (haha) of 'Antoni. and i'm talking about
    KO posters defending the sh*tstache coaching.

    the triangle offense is an intelligent playmaking strategy, that can work for any
    player who understands it. it figures a dense player like RonArtest couldn't grasp
    it immediately, and a smart player like Luc Longley could.

    'Antoni's offense takes advantage of specific type players who can run and gun,
    play the P&R and shoot 3's. he had this in Phoenix and the team excelled. He did not
    have the right players he needed on the Knicks and SSOL failed miserably.

    now, he's back with Steve Nash, he can talk Italian with Kobe, has the best
    defensive center in the league in Duhwight, and an intelligent player in Pau,
    so he just might make it work.

    i wish him luck, but i'm glad he didn't let the door hit him in the a$$ on the way outta here.

    i personally hated his persona more than anything. his handling of Starbury,
    N8 the gr8, poor substitutions, running players into the ground, his smug attitude,
    and belief that offense was more important than D. good riddance.

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    This is why D'antoni will win at least three championships with the Lakers and why all of his supporters will end up with a smile on their faces at the end of the day.

    Nash with 3 future hall of famers > Nash in Phoenix

    Kobe > Marion

    Gasol > Diaw

    MWP > Bell

    D.Howard > Amar'e

    The Lakers already have players on their roster that could play and coach defense so D'antoni could concentrate on getting his team to average 140 pts a game.

    I don't see a team in the Western Conference that will give the LAL trouble in the playoffs. The Thunder just took one step backwards with the Harden trade, Memphis is unproven, and San Antonio doesn't have the superstars to match up against the Lakers.

    I said it from the beginning...I don't see a Miami Heat big 3 beating a LAL big 4 in a seven game series.

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    D'antoni is not a good playoff coach. He's not a good coach really at all. He'd be better off in a position of consultant or assistant coach then head coach.

    His strategy and "system" of ball are fine. it's actually a pretty good way to play the game and he's got the talent in LA to run it effectively. The problem is his ability to manage the game. He doesn't have good clock management skills. His ability to draw up an inbounds play is awful, his management of team persona's and personalities is deplorable. All the things that Phil was, Mike is not.

    I expect with Nash running the offense and kobe benefiting and dwight/MWP there to make defensive stops at the other end we'll see the lakers play some pretty good games and post some impressive numbers. but when it comes down to the playoffs it will get dicey with 2 minutes left in the game down by 6 in Memphis or something. Mike just doesn't have the right play calling in those tight game situations. We saw it time and time again. Poor subbing and play calling, which leads to bad possessions, which lead to an ugly shot or turnover too early in the clock, which leads to a loss.

    The Knicks are constructed right now to beat the Heat or Lakers so I love any pf those match ups. Bringing in D'antoni made the lakers a very beatable team for the knicks. I'm still sticking with my pre-season prediction. Knicks in 7 over the Lakers for the Chip!

    I can't wait for christmas!! I'm like a guy...waiting for... christmas.....

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    nice piece on Phil vs Antoni by those crazy Taiwanese animators

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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Triangle offense it the most overrated offense of all time, and it would never be what it is without having two top 5 players in Kobe and Shaq.

    Imagine if Isiah Thomas implemented a triangle offense with Crawford and Curry back in 2005. How far would that go?

    07-09 Lakers averaged as a team a Offense Rating of 112.9 (Offense produced per 100 possessions

    D'Antoni's teams averaged 114.

    Both were very good offenses but D'Antoni was elite at getting maximal production out of lesser players.

    Raja Bell averaged 15 points one season, never got close to that without D'Antoni.

    Barbosa
    Diaw
    Even freaking Tim Thomas.

    Shawn Marion would of been a 14-15 ppg scorer on most teams in the NBA, in Phoenix his quick bounce ability and skill around the rim was utilized to it's full potential. It was great to watch a guy play his game.

    Joe Johnson got so many open looks his last season in Phoenix, he shot a career best .478 percent from the 3pt line.

    Remember Jim Jackson? NBA vet? Career .360 3pt shooter? Dude shot .459 at Phoenix. The amount of open looks players got in Phoenix was off the chain.

    Lakers offense solely depended on Shaq and Kobe's ability to dominate, Shaq's ability to draw double teams. It was more of the players than the system.

    D'Antoni's system got Nash two MVP's, made the Knicks give Amar'e all that money for him when he was never worth that value, made Marion an elite SF on both ends of the floor, saved Raja Bell's career. Gave Boris Diaw a chance when the Hawks gave up on him. Turned late first round pick Barbosa into a quality role player.


    These were D'Antoni's reserves back in 05-06.

    10 Leandro Barbosa
    12 Andre Barrett
    15 Josh Davis
    23 Sharrod Ford
    55 Brian Grant
    50 Eddie House
    21 Jim Jackson
    22 James Jones
    40 Kurt Thomas
    2 Tim Thomas
    1 Dijon Thompson
    15 Nikoloz Tskitishvili

    He turned that into a very productive bench.

    It's just simply on offense, the Championship Lakers teams had superior defense. We were talking about offense...made no sense to bring up a championship when it requires an entire balance of O and D to win that.

    For example, the 01-02 Lakers had a defense rating of 105.8, 7th in the NBA at the time.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Stats dont lie.
    Yeah but PJax got his team to score without giving up SO MUCH defense.

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    lol i don't know how D'Antoni is gonna work in LA. He loves his team jacking 3's. Does he have any spot up shooters other than Nash who is hurt, and Artest who isn't that good at it?

    Lakers are gonna have a lot of Seven Seconds and Kobe now.

  10. #85
    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    Lock down D'Antoni Defense...

  11. #86
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    It helps that he's got Howard, Kobe and Metta. He really wouldn't have to 'coach' much defense.

    It's the short rotation that's gonna kill them.

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    ^ Yeah indeed and everyone on the Lakers are probably going to be very unselfish other than Kobe.

    I really wonder how good a player D12 is gonna be from now on, you can see when he jumps that his leaping ability has been severely impacted by the surgery. Considering a lot of his game came from that athleticism I wonder how much it's going to drop off.

  13. #88
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    Overrated? Tex Winter's brainchild offence was worked to perfection with the likes of Luc Longley. You don't need 2 top 5 players to run it at all. Though when 2 were, SHAQ and Kobe, it ripped the league to smithereens. It was designed, as far as I recall, to defeat the likes of Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson back in the day with its versatile and cognitive approach, and it worked. It's what got him (Winter) in to the NBA Hall of Fame. It took Ron Artest months to come near to using it effectively - Jordan, basketball's living legend, struggled with it, as well.

    The best part of the triangle is its versatility, and its reactionary success to defences. It has variations for the intensity of any defence, and forces weaknesses in what appears to be an impenetrable, tight pressured D.

    It also adds more versatility for an inside~outside game than D'Antoni's offence. It's a better offence in the sense of versatility by far. D'Antoni's O makes the game that of a wing player, Winter's offence picks team's weaknesses apart offensively, and bolsters any players talents regardless of how limited they are. It can maintain a focal at each position. D'Antoni's is set to serve and favour a prototypical player. The triangle brought out the best in O'Neal, and also provided a niché for any roleplaying no-name along the way, Longley being the perfect example.

    D'Antoni's O is top notch, but the triangle surpasses it in its timelessness and its effectiveness regardless of who's implementing it. D'Antoni's small-ball suits teams with Amar'e Stoudemire at the 5, and that can be countered far easier than the multi-faceted .

    You can throw around stats all you want, but when you talk about the lopsided inputs of O&D with D'Antoni, you'd get lost in the disparities. The triangle forced cohesion and understanding, D'Antoni would just run defences ragged at the cost of his own defence.

    △ > 'Antoni.
    Triangle is a mastermind offense, but that started up in 1940, had it's great success. But let's look into modern terms.
    If the Triangle was an edge at winning titles, everyone would be running it.
    It comes down to personnel.
    You're totally wrong about the triangle being timeless. It's actually outdated.
    The NBA today with the zones and the ability to double team players is not effective anymore. It takes athletic talent to win in the NBA today, both on offense and defense. This is a point guard's league now.

    Brought the best out of Shaq? Shaq averaged 29 points per game under Brian Hill. Shaq is Shaq. The Triangle didn't make Shaq, Shaq was the most physically dominating specimen in NBA history and his career success is 95% on him, not the system.

    If you want to look at a player who lived off a system, look at Leandro Barbosa. Won 6th man of the year under D'Antoni.

    Longley was one of the worst centers of time. His production was inefficient.

    Efforts to establish the triple-post offense beyond Jackson's teams have been few and unsuccessful. Cleamons tried it in Dallas in 1996-97 and was fired after a 28-70 record in one-plus seasons. Tim Floyd ran it in Chicago after Jackson's departure and left three-plus years later with a 49-190 mark. And this summer brought a close to Rambis' experiment in Minnesota.
    PJ was the only coach to really succeed with the triangle and he had the luxury of running that offense under the greatest duos in NBA history, Jordan/Pippen and Bryant/O'Neil. So once again, it's all about personnel.

    D'Antoni's system would work best for LA.
    Mobile and the best athletic big man in Dwight Howard.
    Best pick and roll PG and shooter in Nash.
    ATG Scorer in Kobe.
    Pick and Roll passing big man in Gasol
    Corner specialist in Artest.
    I like the move for LA.
    They're set up well, Jamison, Meeks, and Morris will increase production.

    Defensively, I don't know. That's Mike's problem, defense. Always been, always will be.

    Howard/Artest are A level defenders, so well see how much they can hold up.

  14. #89
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    Originally Posted by elcol
    Yeah but PJax got his team to score without giving up SO MUCH defense.
    Well, it's easy to play defense when you have Rodman, Pippen and Jordan.

  15. #90
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    Mm.. I think the way the Lakers roster is built they will have great success in this offense. They have pretty much a perfect MDA roster with players who are equal or better than when D'Antoni had great success.

    Nash = Nash
    Kobe >>>>>>>>>> Johnson
    World Peace < Marion
    Gasol > Amare
    D12 > Everyone

    With Dwight down low it's ridiculously easy to play inside out. All their players can run the floor.

    They also have enough defensive talent in the team to be set, MDA does not appear to be very adept at establishing a defensive culture, but these guys are veterans and known great defensive players (Dwight, Kobe, World Peace) so I don't think it will be a big issue.

    You have to have that balance which the Knicks never had, when your defense is so weak the offense falls apart sometimes, and you miss out on those easy buckets sparked by good defense.

    It's all going to come down to the Lakers bench. Can Morris/Duhon/Jamison/Hill come through? Jordan Hill is a big question-mark on this team knowing his history with MDA.

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