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Thread: No ball movement at all!!

  1. #16
    Veteran nyk_nyk's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    A winning contender team only plays ISO-Ball in the 4th quarter n cruntchtime .. coach Woody last 7 games started playing ISO-BALL as early as the first quarter .. we dont have 3 consistent ISO players like OKC had in Westbrook, Harden, and super-star ......

    There are only two players on the Knicks that play ISO-Ball, and one of them have a career of inconsistency .. the rest of the Knicks roster are team ball-players. Felton gave away the Nets game (trying to) play ISO-BALL in the 2nd half n OT.

    Melo averaging 30 pts a game have us at 3-4
    The team played bad defense (once again) and gave up a ton of offensive rebounds. Stop using Melo as the scapegoat. Novak, Melo and Chandler were the main culprits with the bad defense.

  2. #17
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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    The team played bad defense (once again) and gave up a ton of offensive rebounds. Stop using Melo as the scapegoat. Novak, Melo and Chandler were the main culprits with the bad defense.

    chandler would get me mad on one possession defensively and the next possession he would score...and novak can pretty much only shoot which we have known all along

  3. #18
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    Originally Posted by Crazy⑧s
    Just for you, WVKnickfan.

    Yep that sums it up thats exactly what this team is turning into AGAIN.This team used to play teamball but now its slowing going back to mello and smith one on one ball.

    I can not see why people can not see what is happening write in front of us.This team looked unbeatable when they played team ball passing it to everybody and they was the best in the league.Now all of a sudden mello and smith wants to take over and leave everybody else out just so they can play one on one the whole game.

  4. #19
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    Originally Posted by JaYnYcE
    Actually Stackhouse had Novak covered until the ball left the air. If JR moves from the corner and Felton comes up as Melo starts to drive, it would have been a nice kick out.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Stackhouse was starting to come and help wallace and that left novak open and with his quick shot that he has it would have been wide open for him.

  5. #20
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    Melo took like 2 shots in the fourth quarter..yall cant be serious..felton lost us this game

  6. #21
    Scoring Champ CA7's Avatar
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    I'm not really understanding the scapegoating of Melo as to why were losing, 1 play in isolation and its a problem but when he's scoring no one says anything

    we lost because

    -rebounding
    -Felton 3/19
    -bad decision making AKA JR chucking a 3 on a fast break
    -Melo playing 50 minutes
    -Nets flopping changed a ton of possessions

    not "iso-ball"

  7. #22
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    Originally Posted by DaBlackProdigy
    Melo took like 2 shots in the fourth quarter..yall cant be serious..felton lost us this game
    Im not blaming melo for lastnights game b/c felton did shoot way to much when he was way off.The thing that im saying is look back over the few years mello and smith have been here.When the ball quits moving on a play its usually in mello's hands or smith.Mello was playing amazing when the season started.He was passing the ball,playing defense,even jumping into the stands after a ball.I know I was'nt the only one seeing those things? and I absolutely loved that mello b/c he got the whole team in the tempo BUT why did he quit.Yes he is scoring his points but anybody can if they kept the ball in their hands.Those players never win either and thats a fact.This team looked unbeatable when they was passing the ball and letting everybody shoot now they just look average at best.

  8. #23
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    I agree, this one is not on Melo. Felton sucked ballz and if Chandler finally didn't have a good game we would have been blown out. I still think Chandler was soft on D, I'm a firm believer of throwing down the hammer on someone coming down the lane, make them think twice before coming back. Defense wasn't the greatest this game, but much much MUCH better than the last two loses. In the end we lost because of Felton's ridious shooting percentage and kidd not being on the court. Don't get me wrong, Felton was trying but i'll much rather have him drive to the whole instead of making moves to take a shot. I'm totally ok with him using the pick for those wide open jumpers by the free throw line even if they don't all go in...

  9. #24
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    I can tell some of you don't know how the role of the coach and the system works.

    Here it is...

    Coach Woodson can draw up a thousand perfect plays, as was the case in crunch-time. Part of that is to recognize what the defense is giving you and adjust on the fly.

    So for instance in crunch time, during the play when Felton (who was cold or shooting poorly) comes down and neglects to get Melo the rock, he drives the lane from the top of the key and shoots he floater.

    Some might say "why would Felton shoot when he was so cold?". The answer is that the defense took the easy over the top pass away leaving Felton on soft coverage to try and create.

    As a coach THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT FELTON TO DO. Ignore his previous misses
    and take what the defense gives you. Matter of fact I would bet that's exactly what coach told him when drawing it up. Look for Melo at the free throw line extended and if they sag drive the lane and create.

    Plays are drawn up, and systems are in place as a guide; a guide to achieve our goals (inside scoring and open shots are an example). What we see are players trying to play within the system yet mostly ad libbing during play.

    This ad lib allows freedom of choices and players to play using their instincts withou always considering "the drawn up play",which will detract from a players effectiveness and render teams too predictable. If only certain players would take certain shots at certain times it becomes easy to defend.

    The reality is players actually make the choice after assessing the situation If for instance a play is drawn up for Novak in the corner and for some reason Tyson is left open under the hoop, the PG MUST know to get Tyson the ball regardless of the play.

    So Melo isolating isn't necessarily drawn up but develops and manifested basedon the circumstances and inparticular what the D gives you. Its the players job to use their skills to play and then rely on the system for structure. But nothing is set in stone. Players must have the savvy to decided what's best

    Not the coach. The coach points us in a direction, the players take us there. If Ray feels a player is hot, even if a play isn't designed for that player, he has to be allowed to make independent decisions. Same goes for a player being open or an opportunity-In those cases we deviate just like when we fast break.

    So chalk that up to poor decisions but not design. Melo is our leader, he got hot, he took the shots he was confident in. Not because woody said so, becase that how it goes. We just need to learn and close out. There is no design for that, its about execution even in ad libbed fashion.

    Kidd will help that. Shump will help fortify the perimeter. And Stat should help us reduce threes and force plays because he's an obvious option.

  10. #25
    Veteran nyk_nyk's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    So Melo isolating isn't necessarily drawn up but develops and manifested basedon the circumstances and inparticular what the D gives you. Its the players job to use their skills to play and then rely on the system for structure. But nothing is set in stone. Players must have the savvy to decided what's best
    I agree with everything you said except for parts of this paragraph. There are times when Melo just wants the ball and is fighting hard for position (which is fine), but during those times when he is clearly being well covered, the ball should be swung around to the other side and not force fed to him. This is why the offense runs a bit smoother with Kidd in the lineup because he won't force anything and is quick to switch options. This itself promotes good ball movement.

    I'll admit its really tough to call though when Melo is destroying every defender that tries to guard him. Still, you can't have guys just standing around watching him.

  11. #26
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    I agree with everything you said except for parts of this paragraph. There are times when Melo just wants the ball and is fighting hard for position (which is fine), but during those times when he is clearly being well covered, the ball should be swung around to the other side and not force fed to him. This is why the offense runs a bit smoother with Kidd in the lineup because he won't force anything and is quick to switch options. This itself promotes good ball movement.

    I'll admit its really tough to call though when Melo is destroying every defender that tries to guard him. Still, you can't have guys just standing around watching him.
    I agree completely. I'm just saying that thats not drawn up, it's just an option on a long list of options. Most importantly it's the conclusion that the majority of what we see isn't scripted, its just playing ball.

    But yeah Melo and really all the leaders and team must recognize there's a time and consequence for every decision. I'm thinking about MJ. Recall he could take over and iso all day, but he didn't.

    He tried to score within the flow of the game and get others involved. This keeps other players on-point (or hot) so that in the event the rock finds them they won't be shooting cold. I thought this when JR forced a few shots and missed a few he should have made but he didn't shoot in a while- so I felt the odds of him making them were lower (and that he should have been involved more earlier).

    But thats all flow, and leadership in the form of the PG's. They need to develop chemistry and contingency plans for different situations then learn to implement as needed. They need to get comfortable and know their limits.

    Iso Melo on a back to back will fatigue him and he will fade. Other shooters will be cold and even though open will miss more. So I chalk this up to learning and chemistry. We need these experiences NOW so we can grow and realize...

    we were competing NOT AT FULL Strength. Once we heal, fine tune the offense, and master our strengths and weaknesses

    sky is the limit. I'm not worried at all. We have an unstoppable player. We just need to put it together.

  12. #27
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    Originally Posted by Red
    I can tell some of you don't know how the role of the coach and the system works.

    Here it is...

    Coach Woodson can draw up a thousand perfect plays, as was the case in crunch-time. Part of that is to recognize what the defense is giving you and adjust on the fly.

    So for instance in crunch time, during the play when Felton (who was cold or shooting poorly) comes down and neglects to get Melo the rock, he drives the lane from the top of the key and shoots he floater.

    Some might say "why would Felton shoot when he was so cold?". The answer is that the defense took the easy over the top pass away leaving Felton on soft coverage to try and create.

    As a coach THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT FELTON TO DO. Ignore his previous misses
    and take what the defense gives you. Matter of fact I would bet that's exactly what coach told him when drawing it up. Look for Melo at the free throw line extended and if they sag drive the lane and create.

    Plays are drawn up, and systems are in place as a guide; a guide to achieve our goals (inside scoring and open shots are an example). What we see are players trying to play within the system yet mostly ad libbing during play.

    This ad lib allows freedom of choices and players to play using their instincts withou always considering "the drawn up play",which will detract from a players effectiveness and render teams too predictable. If only certain players would take certain shots at certain times it becomes easy to defend.

    The reality is players actually make the choice after assessing the situation If for instance a play is drawn up for Novak in the corner and for some reason Tyson is left open under the hoop, the PG MUST know to get Tyson the ball regardless of the play.

    So Melo isolating isn't necessarily drawn up but develops and manifested basedon the circumstances and inparticular what the D gives you. Its the players job to use their skills to play and then rely on the system for structure. But nothing is set in stone. Players must have the savvy to decided what's best

    Not the coach. The coach points us in a direction, the players take us there. If Ray feels a player is hot, even if a play isn't designed for that player, he has to be allowed to make independent decisions. Same goes for a player being open or an opportunity-In those cases we deviate just like when we fast break.

    So chalk that up to poor decisions but not design. Melo is our leader, he got hot, he took the shots he was confident in. Not because woody said so, becase that how it goes. We just need to learn and close out. There is no design for that, its about execution even in ad libbed fashion.

    Kidd will help that. Shump will help fortify the perimeter. And Stat should help us reduce threes and force plays because he's an obvious option.

    Red .... what u say makes sense to a certain point .. this was our 12th game of the season where ball movement is a neccessity to gain a gellin-chemistry on offense throughout the next 30 games.
    Having a veteran roster we should be seeing a Knicks offense where 3 to 4 players get touches on offense before the shot on every other time on offense (like the Spurs do, this is why Parker always gets a straight path layup).
    Double screen plays should be in our play book for tough defensive teams so we can keep 3 to 4 players getting touches within 20 seconds ..
    the Nets coach Avery Johnson did put some nice defensive lineups on the floor, but the Nets defense still had flaws where Tyson Chandler had great postup positions to score and put the Nets bigmen in foul trouble.
    It looks like we forgot that Tyson, Camby, Rasheed, and Kurt has careers of being great passing bigmen that set wide screens to set in our halfcourt offensive-plays.

    When we have consecutive trips on offense where a shot is taken and only two players touch the ball .. this play is called a pick n roll, give n go, back door play, or individual offense (ISO-offense) when a player force up a shot with one or more defenders covering him (Melo & JR).
    In the last 7 games we see one or maybe 2 passes on the offensive-end then the shot .. Melo, JR, and Felton has been the top 3 players with the most shot attempts in the 3-4 record.

    Melo has a career where only two or three players get touches on the offensive end .. this is why Melo is a regular season player, not a postseason player .. and we watch our PG-Felton feed into this ISO sillyness for a loss vs the Nets. When Felton were suppose to have some PG leadership to find opening for other teammates to score other than Tyson and himself.

  13. #28
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    The OP of this thread is 100% correct and I think besides Amare and Shump being injured this iso style of ball the Knicks for some reason reverted back to in the last 4 games is the biggest reason for these losses.

    I don't get why they stopped playing teamball it was working so well now there's no ball movemnt, no player movement, no off ball screens, and rarely and PnR.

    Iso ball is not conducive to winning at all and idk if this is a flaw on Mike Woodson's part since this is what he was criticized for in ATL or Felton for setting a bad tone of getting mines instead of setting up my team like a PG is supposed to.

  14. #29
    Huge Member smokes's Avatar
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    Touching on the points of Red and nyk_nyk, I think the issue could come down to trust. During the first 2-3 quarters of games Melo can score and defer with ease, there is little pressure and they play some great ball playing through Melo ISO, drawing the double team and swinging the ball around.

    Later on in games however Melo, JR and Felton in the Nets game had plays here and there which were typical "I have to score now" plays. They should be playing team ball every time up the court, not 75% of the time.

  15. #30
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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    The team played bad defense (once again) and gave up a ton of offensive rebounds. Stop using Melo as the scapegoat. Novak, Melo and Chandler were the main culprits with the bad defense.

    Anytime u see a offense where only two players get touches on the offensive-end consistently throughout the entire game .. the rest of the players effort on offense/defense start dissapearing .. if u didnt know that was Melo career with the Denver Nuggets, untill Billups showed up to share the ball with the rest of the Nuggets teammates .. which made Melo want out of Denver.

    Now Melo is bringing that same SHAAAT to the Knicks .. Jason Kidd does not play that type of game or system, so expect the old-head veterans to fall in suit with Amare.

    REAL Talk
    I mention Melo's 9 point performance of taking the Spurs best defenders away from the basket for a Knicks win over the Spurs.
    I also mention Melo's 9 point performance dropped Melo's scoring average down to 22 points.
    Will Melo ever play possum like that again? HELL NO!
    However, Melo wants Amare to play possum every game, which took Amare out of being selected to the all-star team lastseason.
    Did u and others expect Amare to do the samething this season, while Melo get all the lime-light for keeping the Knicks a .500 team .... I dont think so.

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