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Thread: What ever happened to...?

  1. #1
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Question Mark What ever happened to...?

    I distinctly recall coach saying he was going to design an offense that featured our two stars.

    Now I understand we've dealt with injuries and flux but what I see isn= an offense built to feature Stat and Melo.

    In fact I see the kind of nondescript, undisciplined style of Mike D'Antoni where:

    Players are encouraged to chuck away with the "I was open" rationale

    Fundamentals are lost

    False positives are cultured and where playerswho were told to "just play" have no real foundation or identity to fall back on.

    I've listed my concerns with this type of approach many times over, as others have.

    I've also mentioned the lack of rebounding and loofing is a byproduct of this type of system.

    So I ask... What's up? This isn't what you sold us coach and definitely what I didn't sign up for.

    Simply stated, play your best players. STOP trying to overthink and reinvent the whell with these impromptu lineups night in and out. It detracts from gel, and chemistry.

    Stat has shown his offensive prowess and I realize he's not the best on defense however...
    He's the best PF we have. Sheed and Camby can balance out his short-comings... that's what they're here for.

    If Shump off and injury can start immediately, then there's no excuse for sta.

    F*ck all the "its who finishes sh*t"!

    Start right, build a lead, demoralize, then bring in Chuckers and undisciplined players for stretches. Always go with what we know. And we know as Woody said

    Our stars will get the bulk of touches.

    Once you realize this you'll realize players like Smith etc... Must learn to acquiecse to our power players. Not chuck because they're open.

    Discipline is instilled by leadership. Our problems as much as they are about injuries are also about being undisciplined.

    Coach, wake up and get back to basics. Stat & melo... then everyone else. We didn't pay $100mil to see the 6th man of the year.

  2. #2
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Our coach, and god bless him for this, understands that MDA's offense is more effective than the iso ball he used to use exclusively in Atlanta. When will you comprehend this??

    He's slowed down the pace though. We run MDA's offense in a half-court style and run only off of turnovers.

    Woodson has taken the wise approach and if you look around the league quite a few coaches play a similar style of O. Greg Popovich comes to mind. His team launches now whenever the opp arises, with similar spacing a run alot of pick and roll. Alot of teams have adopted MDA's principals.

    Team USA domination has cemented this offense and greatly contributed to its proliferation around the NBA.

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Our coach, and god bless him for this, understands that MDA's offense is more effective than the iso ball he used to use exclusively in Atlanta. When will you comprehend this??

    He's slowed down the pace though. We run MDA's offense in a half-court style and run only off of turnovers.

    Woodson has taken the wise approach and if you look around the league quite a few coaches play a similar style of O. Greg Popovich comes to mind. His team launches now whenever the opp arises, with similar spacing a run alot of pick and roll. Alot of teams have adopted MDA's principals.

    Team USA domination has cemented this offense and greatly contributed to its proliferation around the NBA.
    Perhaps you're missing my point so I'll set you straight with asKiya would say "real talk".

    First, this is NOT about what's better; isolating or P & R? As that would be a far too simplistic and polarizing way to see offense.

    Second, what this IS about is holding coach (who I endorsed) accountable. He said he would design a system that features our stars... I don't see this. Do you?

    And finally, what your blind faith in D'Antoni's "Principles" does not allow you to do is objectively see how letting any open shooter chuck with disregard for nuances of the game (not seen by the untrained eye) such as rebounding positioning, featuring, exploitating mismatches, etc...

    Will exponentially yield less results as the season progresses and more so within the playoff environment where defenses are stout (See NYK vs CHI and many other defensive teams). Not to mention it detracts from players like JR smith from understanding and perpetuating the pecking order hence his low % shots while sharing the floor with our stars.

    Simply put he is getting out of control and coach has to set the tone. So everyone including Smith understands they are secondary; Our priority is STAT & Melo.

    Tha way when we face adversity (which we will) EVERYONE understands the ball, the plays, the focus goes back to our priority. Unfortunately Mike's "principles" don't address this.

    Btw, how ridiculous is your example of the USA team using MDA's system as some sort of validation.

    They won a gold medal- important in its own right... but it's no NBA Championship. For that it's a 4 series gauntlet of the best NBA teams; first to get to 16 w's wins. Mike's system hasn't done that now has it?

    Yeah...

    I know what I'm talking about and I know that we are displaying undisciplined fundamentals ala MDA... time to learn from his mistakes and coach to reel it in, and its apparent on both sides of the ball. I want to see a more innovative offense featuring Stat & melo like coch said.

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    D’Ant was/is a flawed coach. I understand the basics of his system but he only plays one way, he’ll always get bounced out of the playoffs because you can remedy his style of play with good defense and eventually you’ll adapt to it fully. IMO, he’s no offensive genius but knows the game of BBall is a game of rhythm, passion and intensity. One of his problems is that he relies on this truth too much; unfortunately, he isn’t really that kind of coach to bring this out of his players. Passing the ball around helps in getting the TEAM into the game, finding the open man and shooting the rock fast displays continuity, and it’s suppose to peak confidence… most pure scorers realize this, they know that basic instincts and skill still goes a long way. NBA players already know how to score, but scoring consistently requires confidence. D’Ant’s system is designed to have his players shoot themselves into the game; it alleviates selfishness, and promotes unity.
    However, this approach requires certain kind of players, players that can pass and shoot the long ball, If he ever took defense as serious as he does offense… than maybe he’ll get somewhere in the post season. Without these players his team may suffer in rebounding, enthusiasm, and wins…simply because he lacks any defensive mind set and relies heavily on the natural talents of defensive minded players to compensate for his weaknesses in coaching defense.
    Coach Woody is mixing that part of our former coach’s game plan with his own, while keeping defense the #1 priority. Also, I think he’s still trying to mesh the players (various lineups) to get them prepared for the post season. Correct me if I’m wrong…but Felton Amare, Melo, JR Swish/Shump, Chandler have only played about 2 games together this whole season. Tbh, I’m actually impressed with the results giving the past teams we had and all the bizarre circumstances we had to deal with coming into the season. I’m not worried yet because the Knicks are not playing to lose like they use to do, they’ll figure it out soon enough…or the media and fans will figure it out for them and put them on notice. We just have a few minor adjustments here and there, while healing and resting players for specific games. There’s still A whole lotta ball left to play…

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    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Real NY Baller
    D’Ant was/is a flawed coach. I understand the basics of his system but he only plays one way, he’ll always get bounced out of the playoffs because you can remedy his style of play with good defense and eventually you’ll adapt to it fully. IMO, he’s no offensive genius but knows the game of BBall is a game of rhythm, passion and intensity. One of his problems is that he relies on this truth too much; unfortunately, he isn’t really that kind of coach to bring this out of his players. Passing the ball around helps in getting the TEAM into the game, finding the open man and shooting the rock fast displays continuity, and it’s suppose to peak confidence… most pure scorers realize this, they know that basic instincts and skill still goes a long way. NBA players already know how to score, but scoring consistently requires confidence. D’Ant’s system is designed to have his players shoot themselves into the game; it alleviates selfishness, and promotes unity.
    However, this approach requires certain kind of players, players that can pass and shoot the long ball, If he ever took defense as serious as he does offense… than maybe he’ll get somewhere in the post season. Without these players his team may suffer in rebounding, enthusiasm, and wins…simply because he lacks any defensive mind set and relies heavily on the natural talents of defensive minded players to compensate for his weaknesses in coaching defense.
    Coach Woody is mixing that part of our former coach’s game plan with his own, while keeping defense the #1 priority. Also, I think he’s still trying to mesh the players (various lineups) to get them prepared for the post season. Correct me if I’m wrong…but Felton Amare, Melo, JR Swish/Shump, Chandler have only played about 2 games together this whole season. Tbh, I’m actually impressed with the results giving the past teams we had and all the bizarre circumstances we had to deal with coming into the season. I’m not worried yet because the Knicks are not playing to lose like they use to do, they’ll figure it out soon enough…or the media and fans will figure it out for them and put them on notice. We just have a few minor adjustments here and there, while healing and resting players for specific games. There’s still A whole lotta ball left to play…
    Nice post.

    We cannot develop chemistry while coach keeps flip-flopping line ups as if he doen't know who can do what by now... seriously?

    And let's not forget...

    Mike D'antoni ran players into the ground playing them out of position. Do you recall.

    Now its Shump at the 3, Melo at the 4?.... Wtf?

    NO! There's no excuses for the mda approach. Stop.

    Felton-Shump-Melo-Stat-TC (at least they get to gel... our stars!)

    Then

    Prigioni-JR-Brewer- Cope/Novak- Thomas

    Leaving White to fight for garbage minutes. Simple.

    Once Kidd, Camby and Wiallace return... the only consideration should be where on the 2nd unit do they fit.

    The main unit should be afforded to play their natural positions, guarding the same position on D. Not oh' play the 3 today the 4 tomorrow and learn to guard whoever is in front of you.

    PLEASE COACH, DON'T **** THIS UP. ITS SO SIMPLE YET YOU (LIKE DANTONI) ARE ****ING IT UP! STOP BEFORE I LOSE IT.

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    whatever happened to accountabilty for lack of defense? felton is gettin baked.

  7. #7
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    Entering play Wednesday, the Knicks had outscored opponents by an average of 13.4 points per 48 minutes with Chandler, Stoudemire and Anthony on the floor together.
    espn.com

    This was about their $54 million big-man triumverate of Anthony-Amar’e Stoudemire and Tyson Chandler looking for the first time like a three-headed scoring monster.Chandler and Stoudemire prospered in the paint, combining for 35 points to lead a balanced attack in last night’s 113-97 victory over the Magic at the Garden.

    This was hardly a one-man show starring Anthony as it has been lately. Stoudemire, a perfect 7-for-7 from the field, and Chandler, 10-for-11, were beasts around the rim. The Knicks (28-15) showed the balance coach Mike Woodson has sought with six players in double figures — and they didn’t even have Jason Kidd (back).

    Though Woodson has no plans to start the trio, Anthony, Stoudemire and Chandler were on the court in the third quarter when they pulled away...

    ...Chandler finished with 21 points, Stoudemire had 14 and Anthony 20.
    nypost.com

    isn't it obvious what needs to happen? SMH

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    Lol, I feel you Red. Just try to relax a little bit brah. The Knicks will be fine, so just enjoy this rare opportunity in Knicks history. I’m sure we’ll see more Melo, Stat, and Chandler sharing the floor as the season progresses. As of now, Woodson is a bit reluctant to use the trio together because they struggle defensively together. Coach is all about that defense. Stat has said after every game his main focus is working on his defense so he doesn’t mind playing as a reserve if it helps get them the win. I think after the allstar break is when teams start to show their true colors, teams characteristics start to become more apparent due to the fact the Playoffs are near, they start playing with more urgency while loosening up on their experimentations. ….I’ll wait a couple more months before I’ll criticize coach Woody’s rotation.

    Staying healthy, fresh, and engaged seems to be the plan here. I want the whole team primed and salivating at the mouth towards the end of the regular season. Our vets, rooks, everyone should be on the same page by then. As of now… we are still doing reasonably well and sitting on top of the Atlantic with a team that has yet to disclose an identity, this little fact has to have the rest of the league a lil nervous. Surely you can find a bit of solace in that…

  9. #9
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Red
    Perhaps you're missing my point so I'll set you straight with asKiya would say "real talk".

    First, this is NOT about what's better; isolating or P & R? As that would be a far too simplistic and polarizing way to see offense.

    Second, what this IS about is holding coach (who I endorsed) accountable. He said he would design a system that features our stars... I don't see this. Do you?

    And finally, what your blind faith in D'Antoni's "Principles" does not allow you to do is objectively see how letting any open shooter chuck with disregard for nuances of the game (not seen by the untrained eye) such as rebounding positioning, featuring, exploitating mismatches, etc...

    Will exponentially yield less results as the season progresses and more so within the playoff environment where defenses are stout (See NYK vs CHI and many other defensive teams). Not to mention it detracts from players like JR smith from understanding and perpetuating the pecking order hence his low % shots while sharing the floor with our stars.

    Simply put he is getting out of control and coach has to set the tone. So everyone including Smith understands they are secondary; Our priority is STAT & Melo.

    Tha way when we face adversity (which we will) EVERYONE understands the ball, the plays, the focus goes back to our priority. Unfortunately Mike's "principles" don't address this.

    Btw, how ridiculous is your example of the USA team using MDA's system as some sort of validation.

    They won a gold medal- important in its own right... but it's no NBA Championship. For that it's a 4 series gauntlet of the best NBA teams; first to get to 16 w's wins. Mike's system hasn't done that now has it?

    Yeah...

    I know what I'm talking about and I know that we are displaying undisciplined fundamentals ala MDA... time to learn from his mistakes and coach to reel it in, and its apparent on both sides of the ball. I want to see a more innovative offense featuring Stat & melo like coch said.
    The bolded is the dumbest thing I've heard on the forum in a while, maybe withstanding Kiya's recent comments re trading Melo and JR.

    If it's not about what offense works better than what the hell is it about Red?

    Look at our production and tell me what's wrong:

    Points per game: 100.7 (9th of 30)

    Offensive rating: 111.0 (3rd of 30)

    Stop re our offense. There's nothing wrong with it.

    Our defense which is supposed to be coaches strength is what should be a bit more concerning to you.

    Opponents Points per game: 96.3 (10th of 30) ... which is pretty good..

    but our defensive rating is 106.2 (18th of 30) which is not great. We've seen the defensive lapses all year, although overall our defense has been better.

    This thread is a nonstarter.

    Only you (the stauchest MDA hater on the board) would neglect to see the olympic teams' use of his offensive principles as an endorsement of it's effectiveness. Congrats. Your blind hate has not dwindled in the least.
    Last edited by ronoranina; Feb 01, 2013 at 16:00.

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    SWAGABURY KingStarbury3's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Our coach, and god bless him for this, understands that MDA's offense is more effective than the iso ball he used to use exclusively in Atlanta. When will you comprehend this??

    He's slowed down the pace though. We run MDA's offense in a half-court style and run only off of turnovers.

    Woodson has taken the wise approach and if you look around the league quite a few coaches play a similar style of O. Greg Popovich comes to mind. His team launches now whenever the opp arises, with similar spacing a run alot of pick and roll. Alot of teams have adopted MDA's principals.

    Team USA domination has cemented this offense and greatly contributed to its proliferation around the NBA.
    I agree with both of your posts. At times our offense can be stale like Red is saying but overall its not the problem. Our defensive lapses have hurt us more. Copeland, Stat and Novak should never all be on the court at the same time

    Its kinda crazy how alotta teams are swagger jacking Dantoni's style. We are seeing alotta different variations of his uptempo, pick and roll offense which sets up open perimeter shots, a big rolling to the basket, and sometimes an easy layup for the guard thats using the pick. You often see these teams with 4 guys that can hit three pointers on the court and it does cause alotta problems for opposing defenses. And your absolutely right, Woodson has done a great job of customizing his own Dantoni offense. Mike D gets alotta hate but those Suns teams were as fun to watch as any other team I've ever seen.

  11. #11
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    The bolded is the dumbest thing I've heard on the forum in a while, maybe withstanding Kiya's recent comments re trading Melo and JR.

    If it's not about what offense works better than what the hell is it about Red?

    Look at our production and tell me what's wrong:

    Points per game: 100.7 (9th of 30)

    Offensive rating: 111.0 (3rd of 30)

    Stop re our offense. There's nothing wrong with it.

    Our defense which is supposed to be coaches strength is what should be a bit more concerning to you.

    Opponents Points per game: 96.3 (10th of 30) ... which is pretty good..

    but our defensive rating is 106.2 (18th of 30) which is not great. We've seen the defensive lapses all year, although overall our defense has been better.

    This thread is a nonstarter.

    Only you (the stauchest MDA hater on the board) would neglect to see the olympic teams' use of his offensive principles as an endorsement of it's effectiveness. Congrats. Your blind hate has not dwindled in the least.

    Again Ron this is not about comparing isolation vs P&R as almost everyone knows the key is balance. If you want to gain an actual understanding and post something more interesting than rankings (which provide false positives) you should figure out what those rankings are vs
    1. The teams we struggled against aka playoff teams who play D

    then ask yourself why didn't our 3 point leading approach work then? Why didn't our constant switching on D work?
    The easy Mike Dantoni answer is "our shots didn't drop"
    yet he like you doesn't understand what can be done when "shots don't drop".

    the answer to that is learn to incorporate high % shots. STAT adds high % shots over White thus reducing the risk of taking too many threes, similar to diversifying your portfolio.

    and that's what this is about. If we learn to really feature our big 3, we will learn that that is where our strengths are. That then reinforces our identity and gives players the confidence and fall back plan when shots don't drop and we face top defensive teams. playing undisciplined and not being checked leads to reinforcement of bad principles (see MDA) and a whole slew of other problems and systematic break downs.

    I was right about Mike and you were wrong. Be a man and take the loss. I said we needed a coaching change, some bigs and some defensive Accountability. Now I'm saying STAT MELO & TC need to start and as much time as possible together. Don't argue just play your part and watch as time shows you why you have no business addressing me. Thanks. Crunch those numbers and then check the Lakers schedule so you can see your man. Lol

  12. #12
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    You are complaining bout the offense right? Again, it aint broke.

    Why dont you just shut it and enjoy MDA's contribution to the game lol. I think we'll start to feature Amare more as time goes on and his play dictates it. He's still rounding into form.




    MDA stunk here. There. You happy bitch?

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