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Thread: Knicks Mid-Season Report. (Good read)

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    Media Knicks Mid-Season Report. (Good read)

    January was a month for treading water. The Knicks tried to fit two key pieces back into their puzzle in Amar’e Stoudemire and Iman Shumpert.

    The Knicks struggled with chemistry because of the additions. They also struggled with chemistry because of the subtractions of starting point guard Raymond Felton, who missed the first 3 1⁄2 weeks of the month with a broken pinkie, and defensive stalwart Rasheed Wallace, who missed all month with a sore left foot.
    Wednesday’s victory over Orlando left them barely with a winning record for January at 7-6. The Knicks (28-15) still remained second in the East behind Miami, but their record was good enough for first in the Atlantic Division. But January was one step forward, one step back and one step toward Carmelo Anthony landing an endorsement deal with Honey Nut Cheerios.
    At least there was a feel-good cultural experience with the London visit that netted a victory over the Pistons, team bonding and the reemergence of Stoudemire.

    After a shaky beginning to his Jan. 1 return, looking hesitant on offense, lost on defense, Stoudemire has roared like a lion since Jan. 17.
    Shumpert’s return is six games old and he still is rusty from a nine-month layoff. Shumpert had a strong season debut in London, but tailed off. Defensively, he hasn’t lived up to his rookie-season promise. Thrust into the starting lineup, Shumpert and Felton are brand-new to one another.

    “It will take time for me and Shump to get that rhythm with each other,’’ Felton said. “Me and J-Kidd, we knew what each other will do and where each other would be on the defensive end.’’
    February is full of promise as Stoudemire’s star may continue to rise, Shumpert should get more fluid and the team gets back more defense with Wallace and center Marcus Camby. Of course, these are the Knicks and another significant injury could occur beyond Jason Kidd’s ailing back.

    GAME OF THE MONTH: CELTICS 102, KNICKS 96, JAN. 7
    The month’s highlight — and lowlight — occurred Jan. 7 vs. Boston, and Honey Nut Cheerios will never taste the same. Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Garnett had a series of confrontations on the court and off after Garnett reportedly made an untoward remark about Anthony’s wife, La La. The chaos raged on after the game when Anthony tried to get a piece of Garnett in the tunnel by the locker rooms and again by the Celtics’ team bus. Anthony got suspended for one game. Garnett got off scot free, but in the Cereal Bowl rematch Jan. 24 in Boston, Melo got the last laugh.

    MVP
    Selecting Anthony would be avoiding the good and bad of Melo. The cereal incident between Anthony and Kevin Garnett was too egocentric, essentially costing the Knicks two games due, in part, to his one-game suspension. Despite setting a franchise record of 30 straight games scoring 20 or more points and averaging 30.6 points per game during the month, Anthony shot 36 percent during one seven-game stretch — 42 percent overall in January. And he now leads the league in shot attempts.
    Meanwhile, Stoudemire has been a saint for not showing a hint of disappointment about not starting. (Woodson doesn’t want to mess with Anthony’s MVP-caliber season at power forward.) Stoudemire debuted Jan. 1. He is not a natural defender, but has dedicated himself to getting better. In the last six games, Stoudemire is moving alertly without the ball, teammates are finding him cutting to the basket and he’s getting his own points off new post moves.
    Stoudemire won’t be at All-Star weekend in Houston, but he can credit the city for his post game after a summer working with low-post guru Hakeem Olajuwon. Stoudemire’s efficiency in January is evidenced by a 55.3 shooting percentage and 12.7 scoring average in 22 minutes.

    LVP
    During garbage time Wednesday, fans serenaded Ronnie Brewer by chanting his name, giving him the Scalabrine treatment. It has been quite a fall for Brewer, part of the successful smallball starting lineup in November and December before being beaten out in the rotation by James White and Chris Copeland. Brewer lost confidence in his 3-point shot and it hurt his defense. He shot 31.8 percent from the field in January and is now insurance in case Kidd or Shumpert break down. He could also be trade bait for a big man next month if the Knicks are convinced Wallace’s foot is ready to shatter.

    KEY COACHING DECISION
    Woodson’s refusal to place the $100 million Stoudemire into the starting lineup took courage. He decided Melo’s rhythm as starting PF and center Tyson Chandler’s All-Star campaign should not be disrupted for a player who can always reinjure his knee or back at any moment. Woodson now is finding out the “Trio Grande’’ of Anthony-Stoudemire-Chandler can work well offensively despite earlier spacing concerns. The Orlando game was top evidence. Woodson is ready to roll more with that alignment, just not at the start.

    LOOKING AHEAD
    Three of February’s first four games are against losing teams (Sacramento, Detroit, Washington). The Knicks want to run the table entering the Feb. 15 All-Star break, but that would require a big home win over the Clippers, the month’s highlight game, Feb. 10. The rematch in Indiana Feb. 20 should be interesting as Anthony will play this time. The Warriors of Mark Jackson and David Lee invade MSG for the lone time Feb. 27. It will be Jax’s first game as head coach at MSG because last season’s home game got wiped out by the lockout.
    **
    Sourec:[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    I don't like the idea of trading Brewer. Yes his confidence is low but if we are bout defense then why trade a good defender?

    And I believe Melo @ the 4 will wear him down.

    I think coach should add STAT to the starting line up. Playing White and going with a small line up over traditional thinking (Stat at the 4, Melo at the 3) is similar to our old coach playing everyone out of position. Hopefully coach won't learn this lesson the hard way.

    Your thoughts?

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    Going into the 2nd half of the season the Knicks still lack chemistry on both ends of the court, unless u like the chemistry Melo & JR had on the Denver Nuggets.
    It was so nice to see the Knicks finally let another Knicks teammate lead the team in scoring (Tyson 21 points) vs a mediocre (Orlando Magic) team during our 43 game of the season. We have to many decent scorers on the Knicks roster that has been denied a chance to score because of two selfish players (Melo & JR) that shoot us in/out of a lead in games.

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    Its Amare’s defense keeping him out of the starting lineup, coach wants the start of the game to be defensive while having a definite scoring threat on the floor (Melo). Felton will facilitate, getting Chandler in the game more offensively. Stat and Jr Swish will bring in more offense off the pine. I believe coach wants Chandler to be more dominating, if this is the case than having 3 alpha scorers on the court at the beginning of games might disrupt the chemistry in our scoring department because all of them will be looking for their shots before looking to play team ball. Perhaps today’s article in the Daily News will help share some insight on what exactly the coach wants to do with the team.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    I think Stat will eventually be back in the rotation but I think the coach is still experimenting with lineups trying to get his whole team some burn while they are feeling each other out. I highly doubt this team will be going into the post season with Melo and JR shooting over 20 shots a piece. They've done this in recent past games simply because of injury issues and other players (like Novak) not performing up to their abilities. 82 games should make this roster very familiar with each other, everyone will know their part and should have warm fresh legs and all the rust shaken off.

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    Originally Posted by Real NY Baller
    Its Amare’s defense keeping him out of the starting lineup, coach wants the start of the game to be defensive while having a definite scoring threat on the floor (Melo). Felton will facilitate, getting Chandler in the game more offensively. Stat and Jr Swish will bring in more offense off the pine. I believe coach wants Chandler to be more dominating, if this is the case than having 3 alpha scorers on the court at the beginning of games might disrupt the chemistry in our scoring department because all of them will be looking for their shots before looking to play team ball. Perhaps today’s article in the Daily News will help share some insight on what exactly the coach wants to do with the team.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    I think Stat will eventually be back in the rotation but I think the coach is still experimenting with lineups trying to get his whole team some burn while they are feeling each other out. I highly doubt this team will be going into the post season with Melo and JR shooting over 20 shots a piece. They've done this in recent past games simply because of injury issues and other players (like Novak) not performing up to their abilities. 82 games should make this roster very familiar with each other, everyone will know their part and should have warm fresh legs and all the rust shaken off.
    I don't see Stat or TC as "alpha" scorers but secondary options. What I don't see in consideration is the effect a threat like Melo would havewhen Stat is on the floor- that being able to draw double teams and passing to cutters in the lane for easy scores like Stat.

    Additionally I don't see coach considering the wear on Melo and what happens in the event of a missed shot. In effect there is usually one (TC) man trying to outrebound an entire team (as we've seen). This is a byproduct of having too many wing players and not enough size.

    Now I know we and MIA have been winning while not rebounding but I feel that won't be the case in the PO.

    It also gets Stat going early and gives teams too many options to cover. He has improved on his help defense and we have played n effective zone with him which teams like MIA have trouble with. The pressure to score off the bench is minimized when our starting unit gains a large lead.

    Again, who would you rather have White or Stat in the starting lineup? That's what coach is doing... choosing White over stat.

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    Originally Posted by Red
    I don't see Stat or TC as "alpha" scorers but secondary options. What I don't see in consideration is the effect a threat like Melo would havewhen Stat is on the floor- that being able to draw double teams and passing to cutters in the lane for easy scores like Stat.

    Additionally I don't see coach considering the wear on Melo and what happens in the event of a missed shot. In effect there is usually one (TC) man trying to outrebound an entire team (as we've seen). This is a byproduct of having too many wing players and not enough size.

    Now I know we and MIA have been winning while not rebounding but I feel that won't be the case in the PO.

    It also gets Stat going early and gives teams too many options to cover. He has improved on his help defense and we have played n effective zone with him which teams like MIA have trouble with. The pressure to score off the bench is minimized when our starting unit gains a large lead.

    Again, who would you rather have White or Stat in the starting lineup? That's what coach is doing... choosing White over stat.


    There's no way coach Woodson could wear-down Melo or any of our "Old-Heads" with walking the ball up court on every offensive-possession .. so Melo could average 40 minutes a game, plus take close to 30 shot attempts to lead the NBA in scoring .. Hint: MVP are annouce in the 2nd round of the playoff.
    Stat & Shump are transition-players being force to play a halfcourt-offense every second of their playingtime with peremeter shooting, which has stop us from making a 10-0 run on our oponents, even mediocre-oponents.

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    Originally Posted by Real NY Baller
    Its Amare’s defense keeping him out of the starting lineup, coach wants the start of the game to be defensive while having a definite scoring threat on the floor (Melo). Felton will facilitate, getting Chandler in the game more offensively. Stat and Jr Swish will bring in more offense off the pine. I believe coach wants Chandler to be more dominating, if this is the case than having 3 alpha scorers on the court at the beginning of games might disrupt the chemistry in our scoring department because all of them will be looking for their shots before looking to play team ball. Perhaps today’s article in the Daily News will help share some insight on what exactly the coach wants to do with the team.

    Our biggest liabilities in the starting-lineup & finishing-lineup going into midseason are ....
    1) Felton being a defensive liability on PG/SG
    2) JR being a defensive liability on SG/SF
    3) Melo being a defensive liability on SF/PF
    4) Stat being a defensive liability on PF/C

    Having any 2 of the above name players in a lineup has made us a defenseless team, since our first 6 game win streak of the season. In November & December we had a 5 game, and a 4 game win streak, the last month and a half we been playing .400 to .500 B.Ball (10-9).
    So adding 3 or 4 of the above name players in a lineup has made it hard for Knicks-Fans to watch (check out our Game-Threads) .. we had way to many last-shot winning games the first half of the season.

    We have so many big-name $$$ players on our roster for us to be changing-leads with every oponent in the final 2 minute of a game. As for Melo & JR shooting over 20 shots a game is nothing new, they did the samething on the Denver Nuggets for 3 years in a row to try to get JR the 6th Man of the year.

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    I hear you guys and your posts are rep worthy, imo.

    Obviously Stat is a better player than White, but we don’t need 3 scorers starting the game when you already have 1 such threat in Melo. When Stat picks up his defense, he will most likely be re-inserted into the starting lineup. Atm, it appears the coach is trying to get Chandler more involved and as of now having both Amare and Chandler starting will hurt one or both of their games, some confusion will rise, resulting in miscommunication and players not getting their proper touches, this takes time. It’s not like they won’t play together at some point throughout the game.

    The Knicks are still a work in progress, remember at one time almost everyone thought Melo and Amare couldn’t play together, much less having Tyson and Stat because they were having positioning issues in and around the paint. Coach said many times that it’s up to him to figure it out, and if you remember how these 3 played last year together compared to how they are starting to play together now…you’ll see the coach is serious.
    We have a deep team and imho…I think it’s a bit harder managing this much talent than it is when you have a limited talented team. It’s harder fitting the pieces together because talented players want their shine, they want to win, and they also have ego issues as well. A team with little talent is easier to figure out; they always play through their best player. Chicago, Miami, Okc and other good teams have their identity already because their teams are familiar with each other. Our team and staff are in their first year together and look at where we’re at in the standings…. Impressive is what I’m thinking. Melo is our go to guy simply because of his consistency, that’s all. The coach leans on that while trying to assimilate other players into his game plan. I’m sure when Stat starts playing better defense he’ll be more of a focal point. He’s still learning something no other coach has bothered to teach him, and that’s defense.
    Just look at what Coach has drawn out of Melo this season…he’s no longer just a scorer, but a team player. Sure he still shoots a lot because that’s his strength, old habits are hard to die but the coach is killing it softly, instead of just feeding that bad habit. He’s actually turning him into a better all around player. Before joining the Knicks, Melo never really displayed leadership qualities, but he is definitely trying to become that player. I acknowledge that, so I have no problem falling back on my opinions of him until later on in the season. It’s looking good for us…

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    REAL TALK
    On our midseason report

    I will admitt having a 29-15 record is a nice cushion to enter the midseason .. our team-performance is more veteran-experience than a team-system because we rely mostly on "individual-performance" from experience veterans than team-chemistry.
    We are far from being a winning postseason team however, if we stay one of the top-3 winning teams in the East our first postseason oponents will be the East 8th to 6th seeded team giving us a little edge at winning our first-round series. No guarantees ....

    coach woodson is still showing cluelessness on how to use SG-Iman Shumpert's strength & weakness in our rotation.
    A 2nd season Shump is perfect as our 6th-man defensive-guard off the bench in the first-quarter to defend our oponents PG by applying defensive-pressure at the half-court line during the first half of the game.

    coach woodson is also clueless of PG-Felton's weakness at defending PG, plus clueless of Felton's strength on a high screen & pick n roll from bigmen C/PF teammates to get inside scoring.

    coach woodson favoritism toward JR.smith as our 6th-man guard off the bench for 38% FG scoring could lead to woodson getting fired.
    JR brings nothing off the bench as our 6th-man other than making fans disgusted at watching the Knicks early in the game. JR do give us one or two exciting individual moves in 30 minutes of being a liability on the defensive-end, and no skills to offer in a fastbreak. JR's strength lay in being a 20 minute peremeter shooter in our rotation.

    coach woodson & Dolan's Goldenboy Melo has teammates limited to 3 to 5 shot attempts per game, plus Melo is not a fastbreak-player so Melo wants to slow down the game by walking the ball for a halfcourt offense so he could play 40 minutes, and take 30 shot attempts to get his 20+ points per game.

    coach woodson expensive ($54M per) frontcourt bigmen are not doing to well in the defensive department, shotblocking, or the rebounding department, and when u add a ($5M per) injury-prone Camby who played in 14 games out of the Knicks 44 games this season u have a coach woodson coming-up with a million excuses for such a poor frontcourt bigmen rotation.

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    29-15 record to a 32-16 record not bad for a winning Knicks team .... But where's the team-chemistry in our winning Knicks team? After 48 games this season there's no chemistry or teammate "gellin" on offense or defense.
    Having 36 games left in the season, we are only 18 wins away from having a 50 Win season.
    Hooray! we will make the Postseason games .. however are we a postseason team???

    The highly asked question above is due to our 48 games of having a C-minus grade on team-defense, and a 48 minute ISO-offensive system being lead by high-scoring star Carmelo Anthony.
    In Carmelo Anthony 10 season career how many times did his ISO-Melo offense win a postseason series???

    Denver coach Karl failure to have success in the postseason games falls under letting high-scoring star Carmelo Anthony lead the Denver Nuggets team in a series (with a ISO-Melo system) .. having no strategic change of stradegy in a seven game series.

    This is not about hating on Melo .. it's about letting Kidd & Felton ochestrate our 11 season career 54% high-scoring star Amare Stoudemire into the offense too. During the midseason we need to establish "two" go to guys.
    Amare career average of 14 fga per game for 21 pts, 9 rbd, 1 blk, on 54% shooting.
    Why are we given a 42% JR.smith 16 fga per game to average 16 points per, plus let JR get the benefit of shooting 5 attempts from the 3-ball range at 33% per game.

    Who is a better defensive-rebounder Amare or Tyson? Tyson! why do we have Tyson defending the peremeter?
    Who's a better offensive-rebounder/put back specialist Amare or Tyson? Amare! why is Amare on the peremeter?
    On offense Amare should be our low post center .. on defense Tyson should be our low-post center

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    i believe injured Sheeet and Gumby are keys to Knicks progression, and to STAT
    eventually finding his way into starting lineup. STAT has shown he can be a force
    on D swatting shots, and if he can't meld with Melo by now, when?

    STAT functions as a C replacement for Chandler for now, with the 2 of them playing
    minimal minutes together.

    STAT has shown he's learned from Hakeem the dream, his post moves are better
    than they've ever been, and I agree with Kiyadude:
    "On offense Amare should be our low post center .. on defense Tyson should be our low-post center"

    it's this line of thinking that will allow Amare back into the starting lineup, and
    when Sheeet and Gumby can play again, they will be part of the 2nd unit to
    relieve Chandler and Amare. the defense of the bigs is a large part of what is
    missing right now, the Knicks have not been healthy all season, unfortunately,
    it's a matter of wait and see what happens when Knicks are running on all
    cylinders.

    Brewer shot himself out of the starting lineup and out of the rotation. as good as
    his defense is, he is detrimental on offense. a trade for Luke Ridnour would be key.

    A problem I see with iso Melo and iso JR can be solved by allowing Feltip to be the
    point guard, not just to lay the ball off to the kings of iso, but to hold onto the ball
    until Melo and/or JR are free in the flow of the game.

    Let Feltip BE the playmaker, drive to the hoop, kick it out to whomever is OPEN,
    let the defense come to him, so Melo won't be constantly driving to the hoop
    with 3 men guarding him.

    there is nothing more frustrating than watching the Knicks stop moving when iso Melo
    gets the ball, because as every KO member has mentioned, it's predictable what he's
    going to do, same with JR. It's when Melo or JR catches the ball IN THE FLOW of the
    offense is when magic happens. when Melo and JR pass the ball, actually insert themselves
    into the flow of the game as playMAKERS, and not just players whose job it is to shoot the
    ball or take it to the hoop, is when the Knicks will be realized as a team concept, on both
    offense and defense.

    IN THE FLOW.

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    Default Pardon the lengthy response.

    Originally Posted by CoolClyde
    i believe injured Sheeet and Gumby are keys to Knicks progression, and to STAT
    eventually finding his way into starting lineup. STAT has shown he can be a force
    on D swatting shots, and if he can't meld with Melo by now, when?

    STAT functions as a C replacement for Chandler for now, with the 2 of them playing
    minimal minutes together.

    STAT has shown he's learned from Hakeem the dream, his post moves are better
    than they've ever been, and I agree with Kiyadude:
    "On offense Amare should be our low post center .. on defense Tyson should be our low-post center"

    it's this line of thinking that will allow Amare back into the starting lineup, and
    when Sheeet and Gumby can play again, they will be part of the 2nd unit to
    relieve Chandler and Amare. the defense of the bigs is a large part of what is
    missing right now,
    the Knicks have not been healthy all season, unfortunately,
    it's a matter of wait and see what happens when Knicks are running on all
    cylinders.

    Brewer shot himself out of the starting lineup and out of the rotation. as good as
    his defense is
    , he is detrimental on offense. a trade for Luke Ridnour would be key.

    A problem I see with iso Melo and iso JR can be solved by allowing Feltip to be the
    point guard, not just to lay the ball off to the kings of iso,
    but to hold onto the ball
    until Melo and/or JR are free in the flow of the game.

    Let Feltip BE the playmaker, drive to the hoop, kick it out to whomever is OPEN,
    let the defense com
    e to him, so Melo won't be constantly driving to the hoop
    with 3 men guarding him.

    there is nothing more frustrating than watching the Knicks stop moving when iso Melo
    gets the ball, because as every KO member has mentioned, it's predictable what he's
    going to do, same with JR.
    It's when Melo or JR catches the ball IN THE FLOW of the
    offense is when magic happens. when Melo and JR pass the ball, actually insert themselves
    into the flow of the game as playMAKERS, and not just players whose job it is to shoot the
    ball or take it to the hoop, is when the Knicks will be realized as a team concept, on both
    offense and defense.

    IN THE FLOW.
    (1st & 2nd bolded) It would seem Sheet and Gumby are the keys yet prior to both going down only one really made a contribution. And during that time we assumed the keys were a returning STAT & Shump. The prevailing theme is that someone who we don't have will ride in on his white horse and save us. That has turned out to not be the case which has me thinking, "perhaps something else is the problem" and maybe it's not the "defense of the bigs".

    I say this because we are top 5 in defense with Melo @ the 4. So what's the difference?

    (3rd bolded statement re: Brewer)- The difference is coach removed Brewer and all the outcomes of such a decision are not being considered. With Brewer and Kidd in the lineup the ball movement was better due to the fact that BOTH ARE PASSIVE, and more than willing to give the rock up- thus we moved the rock and Melo had free reign.

    Also what message do we get when we favor Offense over Defense which is what happened with the Brewer benching? In effect we went from a defensive priority team to an offensive one. Thats an MDA mistake.

    (4th Bolded statement re: JR & Melo iso) We, and all teams will eventually need Iso; every made shot will not come from finding the open man with a pass, that's a given. If we remove JR from this situation since he's the "spark" off the bench and consider the remaining offensive options in the starting lineup we notice Feltip-Kidd-Brewer-& TC are left; none of whom can create his shot (Felt being closest but better with a roller to the basket). And yes that's given that Feltip actually gave us 16 per (a solid B option).

    So that would mean that Melo had to carry us and be creative, especially early (see Melo leads league in 1st quarter points) to open it up for his mates. It was then when we saw Kidd shine from the kick out, and Feltip & TC create an alley-opp duo. We can't blame Melo from getting comfy when he was carrying us mainly. Iso or not (and it wasn't as much at first)- he was the main scorer until the D collapsed (leading the opponents 4 to clear the lane while Melo worked the perimeter).

    In conclusion:

    I don't convolute things as I see cause and effect. Kidd & Brewer in the starting lineup gave us passing and defense that we now lack. It gave us an opportunity to feature Melo (as we should), force the defense's hand, and we reacted by swinging the rock to the open man. Simple yet here's what happened.

    Melo contributed to our three point barrages combined with players waiting on the perimeter so we became three-happy. Then Melo goes down and we start noticing teams closing out better.

    Felton who excelled with a cutting TC who excelled with a Melo pulling the PF out (remember they couldn't guard him, he was too fast?), got hurt and so we couldn't penetrate.

    Brewer's defense and passivity was undervalued and so others were inserted who were not as good and streaky such as Cope-White etc... And the chemistry suffered.

    Sheed who at the least provided the same effect as Melo in terms of pulling the bigs out to the perimeter and much needed D and rest for TC went out. This left us with Kurt who is way more limited and Gumby who is fragile.

    So I see a systematic breakdown where our parts are mutually dependent. The situations caused a domino effect.

    The answers we expected never came and we falsely attributed things.

    So we started well with Feltip-Kidd-Brewer-Melo-TC and I can easily see why that worked when it worked. Not so apparent is on D, Brewer and TC obviously brought us up a level. Coach expected Shump to replace Brewer, yet Shump is not 100% Shump. Reinsert Brewer.

    Kidd was not expected additional minutes. He needs to be limited to replacing Felton, Shump, or Brewer.

    Stat in effect should be reinserted for Kidd as hopefully he has learned to pass from Hakeem too. That way there is still ball movement with Kidd out (just not as many threes, which is GOOD).

    We need to create the same situation with Melo at his natural position; draw the defense's focus and spacing out toward him after he gets going- exploit the result with an option of STAT-Feltip-TC-Shump (or Brewer).

    This basically helps those limited on offense (Felt-Brewer/Shump/Kidd-STAT-TC, even Novak et al.) who then can excel and contribute AND keeps TWO viable defenders in at once. Sheet hopefully can come back so he can provide minimal drop off subbing for TC. But thats it. Thats our formula.

    Get Melo going EARLY, let them focus on him,- our ancillary parts shine.

    Keep Brewer or Shump alongside TC or Sheet to anchor the perimeter and interior D. Everything else falls into place. Remove one part of this formula and it's a systematic breakdown. If we try to accomplish this JUST by switching Kidd for STAT

    at the least we will be taking higher percentage shots... which is a good thing.
    Last edited by Red; Feb 17, 2013 at 08:38.

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