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Thread: What's the deal with this starting lineup? Theory

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    Default What's the deal with this starting lineup? Theory

    I want to preface this by saying I'm a huge Woodson fan, so I generally trust him to make the decision that's best for the team, but the starting lineup has me scratching my head.

    Why 3 guards? Shumpert is listed at 6'5 but is in reality probably 6'3 or 6'4. He's used to guarding shooting guards and point guards. Now he's guarding guys who are 6'8. Woodson seems to be working really hard to keep JR out of the starting lineup - starting Brewer, then Copeland, then starting James White, now Shump. And he seems to be trying really hard to keep Kidd in the starting lineup, even when he doesn't play that many minutes.

    I think it's safe to say that 'Melo, Chandler and Felton should be definitely start. But you could go a lot of other ways with the other two spots. If you went with the best players, I'd probably put Stat in at the 4, and start JR, at least until Shump gets back up to speed.

    I think you can argue "well hey, it's been working", but actually we've been starting really slowly with this lineup on the floor. It's almost like he's saving too much firepower for our bench - with JR and Amar'e getting all the shots, there's not enough shots to go around for guys like Novak.

    Here's my theory: I don't think this is the starting lineup (nor the endgame lineup) that Woodson will roll out by the end of the season. But there are several things preventing Woodson from his ideal lineup: First, Shump is just not back to where he was before the injury, and ironically its his defense that is most questionable right now. He just doesn't have the reaction time to keep up with quick guards. I believe this will change as his health improves. Second, with Sheed and Camby out, Woodson has no option but to put either Chandler or Amare on the floor at any given time, so it makes sense for Amar'e to come off the bench to facilitate that. When Sheed comes back, that could change. Third, Woodson wants to keep Kidd involved for chemistry and leadership reasons, even to the point of over-extending his minutes a little bit. I think he will get him more rest going into the playoffs, so he'll be fresh.

    Here's what I'd like to see eventually:

    Starting lineup: Felton, Shump, Melo, Stat, Chandler

    For the moment, though, why not start Novak, at least against taller small forwards? Obviously this is not a long term solution, but he struggles to get minutes right now and I think the starting 5 needs more offensive firepower. JR and Amare can handle the scoring off the bench.

    Just a thought.

    The bigger question may be how to end games. Right now, I'd say Felton, JR, 'Melo, Stat and Chandler. But you could switch Shump for JR on defense, or even put Sheed in for Amare you go offense-defense substitutions. Hard to keep Kidd off the floor in clutch situations, too, but I can't justify taking JR out with his clutch shooting.

    Thoughts?

    I think this conversation could all change if they decide to go out and get some pieces. I can see them bringing in an all-around SF to start (and keep Stat on the bench), and I could definitely see them bringing a big or two as insurance down the stretch. This might allow Stat to start. I also think they could use another quick PG to guard the quickest PG's like Rose, Nate Robinson, Rondo etc.

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    I think eventually we will see a starting lineup of Felton, Shump, Melo, Amar'e and Tyson, but with the lack of depth due to injuries to Sheed and Camby, STAT and Tyson need to be rotated. Amar'e will most likely be coming off the bench for the foreseeable future.

    I agree that the current starting 5 isn't ideal with Felton, Kidd and Shump having to guard positions 1,2 and 3, but I don't think Novak is the answer. Shump (who would probably be the one to go to the bench) brings great energy and intensity on D which is needed to start games.

    Don't know about adding a forward to start games (either a SF to keep Melo at PF, or a PF so we can move Melo back to SF) being a possibility. Not sure we have the pieces to get a player of starting standard. Would definately be in favour of getting a big or two with some athleticism and youth to give us more rotation down the back end of the season keeping Sheed, Camby and STAT as fresh as possible for the playoffs.

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    Shumpert is 6"5 220lbs , players play with sneakers on, so their height without sneakers is irrelevant.

    This lineup aint so bad. I would like to see Melo come back to SF and Amare begin to start again.

    This may be the year Melo-STAT-Tyson may work....a back court of Felton/Shumpert is a huge improvement over Lin/Fields. Felton and Shumpert can penetrate and move the ball, and aren't terrible jumpshooters.

    We got a squad here, we're still figuring out what works best.

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    Superstar MSGhobo247's Avatar
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    I understand Stat is playing great ball right now but I really like him coming off the bench. The spacing is just so much better with him and Chandler coming in for one another and depending on the situation sometimes playing side by side. Stat gives us a consistent inside presence and helps our second lineup from being a 1 man offense (JR). Come playoffs we gotta have more support then just him since teams take time to study one team and players like JR, Novak and Pablo are going to have a harder time doing what they do best.

    Felton, Kidd, Shump, Melo, Chandler is an equal balance of defense, offense, ball movement and penetration

    Pablo, Jr, Novak/White, Amar'e, Kurt/Camby/Sheed is the same damn thing.

    Kurt, Camby and Sheed are underrated passing big men and can all hit face up jumpers making the offense really tough to cover.

    Everyone is interchangeable for the most part and make mid game adjustments easier on the players.

    Starting Chandler and Stat together i feel puts more pressure on Camby and Sheed to come in and produce more then they are expected at this point in their careers. Especially if they are missing most of the season and to ask them to come in at the end and be the anchors of the second unit may be a bit much. Stat can easily take on that responsibility with some help from a Vet big or 2.

    The idea of Melo-Stat-Chandler on the court is amazing and it will def happen at crunch time but for the sake of balance throughout the entire team it shouldn't be what we start and finish games with.

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    Well, with the Felton-Kidd-Shumpert-Anthony-Chandler line up, the rebounding is still at question.

    Personally, my favorite lineup has to be Kidd/Shumpert/Anthony/Camby/Chandler with Shumpert guarding PG's and Kidd guarding SG's.

    Felton, Stat, Smith all get 28+ minutes with Kidd, Shumpert and Camby getting 22-26 minutes you also got Prigs, Sheed, Novak getting below 20 minutes.

    I feel with the way Stat is playing, he can even play with Tyson and he has to because Stat is a weak rebounder and if we leave him at the center position alone, we can get dusted and out muscled in the paint.

    This is why it's important to have Camby, he'll allow Amare to play his game and Amare doesnt have to be forced to do things he's not good at.

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    The thing is Stat never plays center by himself for very long. It's only now he will get the most minutes at the position since we are short on big men. But I agree since Stat is a weaker rebounder(not horrible) he does need another big with him but this can all still happen off the bench.

    I like the starting lineup the way it is for now... the regular season... But if in the post season we are matched up against a big team then I'd rather have the D and O of Chandler + Sheed front court with an Amare + The better rebounding Camby.

    In my eyes Chandler and Camby are too similar to play together. Chandler could tip out and we could swing the ball with Sheed outside or inside. Camby and Amare can also face up and play off each other with Amare as the post presence for the 2nd unit and Sheed with the first.

    Although I'd use this if we were facing a big team post season I still love the way our starting lineup flows now. Although we don't have 2 bigs all those players except Felton are good rebounders and can start the face break in a heartbeat. We have options and it feels good.
    Last edited by MSGhobo247; Feb 05, 2013 at 23:11.

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    i'm not a fan of a small starting lineup. i just say that because at the start f the game they tend to rely on too many jumpers, and if melo isn't hitting the other guys don't seem to get it going either. if sheed or camby were healthy i would want to see amare start to get a couple easy baskets in the post. from there, open shooters can get better shots.

    also if amare is in the starting lineup, woodson can take stat out after 5 minutes, bring in jr, go small with melo at the 4, and then later in the quarter replace tyson with stat to end the quarter or start the 2nd.

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    I think you all make good points. Like I said, I trust Woodson so I'm sure he'll figure things out by the time the playoffs roll around. I don't have a problem with Amar'e coming off the bench, per se - but I'd like to see him more minutes than he's been getting. I think that will probably happen.

    I agree that Camby and Chandler are too similar to play together. It makes sense for Amar'e to be with Camby so maintain rebounding, though offensively I think Sheed and Amar'e could play well together, with Amar'e on the block and Sheed drawing the other big outside. Having said that, I think Amar'e and Tyson could play better together than I previously thought - with Tyson running the pick and roll from the top of the key and Amar'e posting up on the low block.

    I'm still a little uncomfortable with such a small lineup to start, but I think there are some good things going on with this team right now, and I am feeling good about things going forward. Thanks for all the thoughts

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    We all know why Stat is coming off the bench ....
    F/C-Stat has a 9 year career averaging 21 pts, 8 rbd, 1 blk per game before having Melo as a teammate ..
    F/C-Kenyon Martin was a 17 pts, 10 rbd, 2 ast, 1 blk player before having Melo as a teammate.
    Stat & K-Mart thrive in an uptempo transition system, while Melo 10 yr career thrive in a slow-Iso-tempo system.
    Take it for what its worth .. Stat's a NBA starting F/C .......

    The return of our injury players Stat, Shump, and Felton to the rotation, shouldve forced coach woodson to put JR.Smith in the starting-lineup with Tyson, Melo, and Felton.
    Putting Felton & JR in the starting backcourt lineup, would give HOF Jason Kidd the chance to come off the bench alongside of bench-players Stat & Shump to provide a basic chemistry for the two long injured players to work themselves into the rotation casually from 18 minute bench-players to 28 minute players.

    My philosophy of our Starting-lineup comes from our performance early in the season, before Felton's pinky injury side line him to 5 weeks DNP. When our most minute players were Felton, JR, Melo, and Tyson averaging 34 minutes of playingtime each game .. Felton average 16 shot-attempts, JR average 15 shot-attempts, and Melo average 22 shot attempts .. the trio of players had no gellin-chemsitry sharing the ball in a lineup together, which need a lot of work as a starting-unit. We got outscored in the 3rd quarter consistently everytime we let JR start the 3rd quarter in a lineup of Felton/JR/Melo/Tyson.
    Felton's 6 games back from injury, Felton's averaging 33 minutes, 10 pts, 8 ast, 2rbd, 3 to, 1 st, and 8 shot-attempts per game at 45% fgs.
    Which happen to be the best incentive to put JR.Smith into the starting-lineup, while Shump & Stat come off the bench to work themselves into game shape with HOF Kidd, Novak, and the rookies.

    We no longer need Tyson, Melo, and JR to play every minute in two-quarters of each game, and we definately dont need JR on the court while Melo is on the bench, the two need to be in the same lineup throughout their 34 minutes.

    Am I the only one who notice throughout the season of everytime coach Woodson is asked a question concerning Amare Stoudemire, it sounds like Woodson is constipating for a answer???
    This concerns me around the month of Feb.
    Last edited by Kiyaman; Feb 06, 2013 at 09:35.

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    I’m not worried at all; we are playing great and still improving. Woody has great command and control of the situation. He has his players motivated and playing Defense. He wants the starts of games to be aggressive. We don’t have an issue with scoring… just communication and defense, which is being taken care of as the season progresses.

    I totally respect how Woody is running the show because he is making it work while making adjustments on the fly. For a team that is practically brand new in players and personal… I’m very impressed. In fact, I tossed away my panic button the other day. I’m not going to complain when my team is sitting on the top of the Atlantic, especially when this team is demonstrating brilliance and getting better each game. We are resting players, healing players, keeping players fresh, playing guys in different lineups (this is called gelling,btw), and we are still freaking WINNING! I mean, Why the fvck would I be b!tching when there is so much potential clearly being displayed and utilized in various ways.

    Atm, I have nothing to be upset about. Sure there’s room for improvement and that’s exactly what I see in each game. I’ll wait until they actually start sucking before I start complaining. I’ve been supporting this cast of players ever since JLin was traded; this is a playoff team that are getting primed by way of playing in various lineups. Woody is not sitting on top of the Atlantic division because he didn’t know what he was doing, it’s clearly the other way around.

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    Originally Posted by Fat Elvis
    I think you all make good points. Like I said, I trust Woodson so I'm sure he'll figure things out by the time the playoffs roll around. I don't have a problem with Amar'e coming off the bench, per se - but I'd like to see him more minutes than he's been getting. I think that will probably happen.

    I agree that Camby and Chandler are too similar to play together. It makes sense for Amar'e to be with Camby so maintain rebounding, though offensively I think Sheed and Amar'e could play well together, with Amar'e on the block and Sheed drawing the other big outside. Having said that, I think Amar'e and Tyson could play better together than I previously thought - with Tyson running the pick and roll from the top of the key and Amar'e posting up on the low block.

    I'm still a little uncomfortable with such a small lineup to start, but I think there are some good things going on with this team right now, and I am feeling good about things going forward. Thanks for all the thoughts

    Im like u, I like coach Woody as our headcoach its just some of his coaching decision has to be question ..
    putting Camby in the starting lineup with Tyson, when Camby return from injury was the same week as Amare return from injury, which made the two returning bigmen coming off months of rehabilitation the prime candidates to be the back-up players for Tyson & Melo, while working themselves into game shape.
    Woodson decision to put Camby in the starting-lineup (plus KG bringing up old memories of Camby/Melo) made Camby only play 8 consecutive games then put himself on DNP with foot-injuries.
    Woodson coaching is question bigtime when he put Camby & Tyson in the starting lineup vs Boston center KG? When the tandem bigmen of Camby & Amare couldve ate the Rondo-less Boston Celtics up alive coming off the bench. We lost the game, plus we lost Camby in that game.
    Yeah Yeah Yeah, other stuff was mention in that Boston game to cover up other facts about the game.

    With Felton back from injury, do we need Kidd in the starting lineup to hold Feltons hand? NO!
    With a recovering Amare & Shump healthy to perform 20 minutes per game to work themselves into game shape should both come off the bench? YES!
    Who is a better guide & leader to get Amare & Shump gellin in the rotation off the bench? JR or Kidd?
    HOF Jason Kidd!

    Do anyone else find coach Woodson method of coaching questionable?
    Amare improvement in boxing-out of the paint has Tyson cleaning the glass for 20 rebounds per in 3 straight games. Look closely because Kurt, Novak, and Copeland are following Amare so other teammates could rebound...

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    Kiya,my dude....

    With all due respect I think your concerns lies in our conditioning. Cambyman, Sheed, Kurt the flirt, and jkidd are mainly here to help us in the playoffs. We have durability issues with these old heads right now, but their experience will be priceless in the post season, that's why they are here.

    As of now, Woody is getting the whole team acclimated by mixing up the lineups. He’s gelling the roster through experimenting with different lineups. I’m pretty sure he knows the status and conditions of his players better than anyone of us here on this board. It’s not like D’Ant is at the helm where everyone can clearly see why we were losing games. We are winning, and have only lost because of injuries and not knowing who will be the filler to step up.

    IHMO, this is why we see different lineups. Any team that has Melo will use Melo the same way. He’s the #1 option. Coach knows this and relies on this while mixing up his teammates according to the teams we’re playing against. Just imagine if this team and coaching staff played together more than one full season. Give them the benefit of the doubt and wait to they start stinking up the joint before spitting venom on them. I recognize where you’re coming from but at the same time I feel you (and a few others) are lacking faith and conviction. Just relax a bit more and enjoy the moment, stop pounding that button before you wear it and yourself out.


    There’s a time for this, but I doubt that time is upon us now...we are in a great position jockying to get into a better one...

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    Originally Posted by Real NY Baller
    Kiya,my dude....

    With all due respect I think your concerns lies in our conditioning. Cambyman, Sheed, Kurt the flirt, and jkidd are mainly here to help us in the playoffs. We have durability issues with these old heads right now, but their experience will be priceless in the post season, that's why they are here.

    As of now, Woody is getting the whole team acclimated by mixing up the lineups. Heís gelling the roster through experimenting with different lineups. Iím pretty sure he knows the status and conditions of his players better than anyone of us here on this board. Itís not like DíAnt is at the helm where everyone can clearly see why we were losing games. We are winning, and have only lost because of injuries and not knowing who will be the filler to step up.

    IHMO, this is why we see different lineups. Any team that has Melo will use Melo the same way. Heís the #1 option. Coach knows this and relies on this while mixing up his teammates according to the teams weíre playing against. Just imagine if this team and coaching staff played together more than one full season. Give them the benefit of the doubt and wait to they start stinking up the joint before spitting venom on them. I recognize where youíre coming from but at the same time I feel you (and a few others) are lacking faith and conviction. Just relax a bit more and enjoy the moment, stop pounding that button before you wear it and yourself out.


    Thereís a time for this, but I doubt that time is upon us now...we are in a great position jockying to get into a better one...

    I happen to agree with both your post .. and will agree 100% if our roster stays the same after the February trade line past .. Wodson & Melo will have something to do if we are involve in any big-trades.
    The sameway if $24M Kobe Byrant give the o.k. to trade for Amare to compliment Nash & Dantoni.

    Having player/coach/leader HOF Jason Kidd on our Knicks team to get teammates to step-up their level of performance in the 4th quarter of each game got us our 31-15 record ..... we all had to notice Tyson Chandler stepping up to the next level in the 4th quarter of all our games, if Tyson cant get the offensive-rebound he swats the ball outside with ahelluva powerful swing (Tyson & Kidd in Dallas).

    All season long coach Woodson has been trying his best to see what players fits well into his "trio" lineup of Tyson, Melo, and JR, they are the most minute played-players, and the most games played players on the team.
    In the majority of our games we always had 2 out of the "trio" players on the court throughout a 48 minute game.
    With injuries being our biggest factor this season our bench-depth players are still getting consistent DNP and little playingtime .... Brewer 15 min, Pablo 15 min, Copeland 11 min, Kurt 9 min, White 6 min ..... now add the DNP injuries of Amare, Shump, Camby, Sheed, and Felton...

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    Originally Posted by Fat Elvis
    I think you all make good points. Like I said, I trust Woodson so I'm sure he'll figure things out by the time the playoffs roll around. I don't have a problem with Amar'e coming off the bench, per se - but I'd like to see him more minutes than he's been getting. I think that will probably happen.

    I agree that Camby and Chandler are too similar to play together. It makes sense for Amar'e to be with Camby so maintain rebounding, though offensively I think Sheed and Amar'e could play well together, with Amar'e on the block and Sheed drawing the other big outside. Having said that, I think Amar'e and Tyson could play better together than I previously thought - with Tyson running the pick and roll from the top of the key and Amar'e posting up on the low block.

    I'm still a little uncomfortable with such a small lineup to start, but I think there are some good things going on with this team right now, and I am feeling good about things going forward. Thanks for all the thoughts
    the knicks won't win starting a small lineup. when they start that lineup they shoot way too many jumpers. almost every possession at the start of the game the shot clock is under 5 when they take a shot. if anybody noticed tonight, the wizards started the game off with two baskets by okafor down in the paint and they still had a great shooting night. we need someone to get some easy baskets in the paint to allow our shooters to feel comfortable. not saying we should make stat the number one option. i just think we need that available to us to start a game. also, they went small to start the 3rd and found themselves down by 7

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    Novak starting is comical. He has been either a no show or scores when the games are basically over. He has been a dissapointment this year and not worth 4 million a year. The best lineup is Felton, JR, Melo, Stat, Chandler but we need some punch off the bench.

    I love Amare in his role right now but he is playing so well we might have to start him. Amare needs to get more playing time and start games, I don't care about his knees because we play better with him on the floor.

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