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Thread: My Concerns with Coach Woodson. Are you Mike Woodson, or Mike D'Antoni?

  1. #16
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    i think this is a panic thread. Knicks lost to CP3-led Clippers and Wall-led Wizzers.
    other than those losses, Knicks have played pretty good; Amare is playing better
    each and every game, and Iman is still getting his legs as well. Plus, 2 of our bigs
    have been hurt for weeks (Gumby/Sheeeet). this is still not a complete team.

    Losing to a couple of the best PG's in the league is bound to happen, it is very hard
    to stop them when they're on their game.

    the Knicks recent losses were when JR, Novak and Kidd failed to show...
    this squad is all about the bench performing more than anything, the perimeter D will
    come, and the defense of the paint as well. these were issues you've talked about Red,
    and they still remain.

    to compare Wood Son and Antoni is just not fair. They are light years apart in terms
    of coaching styles and player interaction. Wood Son = fastest Knick coach to reach
    50 wins. c'mon now, give the guy a break.

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    Originally Posted by CoolClyde
    i think this is a panic thread. Knicks lost to CP3-led Clippers and Wall-led Wizzers.
    other than those losses, Knicks have played pretty good; Amare is playing better
    each and every game, and Iman is still getting his legs as well. Plus, 2 of our bigs
    have been hurt for weeks (Gumby/Sheeeet). this is still not a complete team.

    Losing to a couple of the best PG's in the league is bound to happen, it is very hard
    to stop them when they're on their game.

    the Knicks recent losses were when JR, Novak and Kidd failed to show...
    this squad is all about the bench performing more than anything, the perimeter D will
    come, and the defense of the paint as well. these were issues you've talked about Red,
    and they still remain.

    to compare Wood Son and Antoni is just not fair. They are light years apart in terms
    of coaching styles and player interaction. Wood Son = fastest Knick coach to reach
    50 wins. c'mon now, give the guy a break.
    First this has nothing to do with panic because I basically made these same observations at the quarter pole.

    Second I'd like to ask, regardless of success, do you not see similarities?

    JR coming off the bench regardless? Not being able to adjust without a PG? Small ball line-ups? Constantly switching on defense producing mismatches against our own team? I even see the same dumb ol' PG give to a wing player- run towards him- and get the ball back sh*t. Corny. How about the three point chucking with disregard?

    The inability to hold down the paint? The force feeding of Novak who is by far one of the worse defensive players I've seen. I think its a tragedy a backyard shooter can make millions in this league without being able to play D? Do you know how many tall backyard shooters I know? WOW! And I'm not hating just reminding you and coach... what happened to accountability?


    And really this thread is about inconsistencies. Is leading the league in threes attempted an example of a defensive team? Or how about being in the bottom ten in rebounds? Is that defense? Is that what coach preached?

    And finally I'd like to ask you... when was the last time you saw a team struggle in the manner we do on defense? Not because the players have no skill, because they are constantly either switching or out of position.

    I enjoy coach and I support him but I can be objective and spot his areas that need improvement. As you say he's light years apart and as so I have raised my expectations. It's not unreasonable to expect coach to know who his best players are, game plan and play them. If I wanted someone to ignore their talent I would have kept MDA.

    Is it unreasonable to hold coach to his word and pedigree? Didn't coach say he would design an offense to feature our two stars? You see that?

    Didn't coach say he would preach defense? So why the small line up with two defensive liability players when a viable big is sitting right there producing in the most efficient manner possible?

    Let's not jump to conclusions. After all, coach is the fastest to 50 wins.. it would be a shame to fall before the finish line. Even worse to be a top seed and not make it to round two. Step up your expectations. You can't call yourself a defensive coach and are unable to lock a player down. Tell me, when was the last time we locked a (as in ONE) player down? Not he's cold. We purposefully game planned to lock him down...?

    I demand greatness... perfection! read the avatar.

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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman

    Poor response for a Knicks team that needs "stops" more than scoring.......no afence to u Jim

    There's so many good post in this Thread ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]) that point-out the real issues on our Knicks team .... except the one above.

    We have not played 48 minutes or 24 minutes of team-defense since the first 6 games of the season when we started Brewer/Kurt and finished with Sheed/Novak .... when Brewer were taken out of the starting-lineup we had a 23-10 record. We were on our way to define the best offensive-lineup and best defensive-lineup to use during crunchtime games during a time-out for stops or scoring.
    We are 49 games into the season with 65% of our games being close games in the 4th quarter, and coach Woodson has not established a defensive-lineup to use for a stop in crunchtime. We have been playing small-ball all season to establish chemistry, which isnt working when small-ball best success is with uptempo transition players (run run run), not halfcourt peremeter shooting offense.
    Non taken KIYA I'm not sure our hot start had anything to do with Brewer being a starter, I think our great start was more a function of great team shooting to begin the season. Everyone said we couldn't keep shooting that well from 3 and for sure we cooled off. It's hard to have Brewer on the floor in end game situations because of his poor shooting. The man couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat

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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    Non taken KIYA I'm not sure our hot start had anything to do with Brewer being a starter, I think our great start was more a function of great team shooting to begin the season. Everyone said we couldn't keep shooting that well from 3 and for sure we cooled off. It's hard to have Brewer on the floor in end game situations because of his poor shooting. The man couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat
    This is why I mention us using a small-lineup that cant score on a fastbreak or uptempo-transition for easy baskets .. which doesnt make much sense .. we have no inside game when oponents use a Zone-defense to block Tyson from getting a pass inside the paint.
    Our 48 minutes of halfcourt peremeter shooting offense dont threaten any of our oponents, because they know Melo average 22 shots per game, and JR average 16 shots per game .. all from the peremeter.
    The rest of our players are limited to just 3 or 4 shots per game.

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    Novak drives to the hoop, Wood Son calls him out for it.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    i saw this on the excellent Mike Wood Son show on MSG.
    if you watched this show, i don't think you'd be dissing coach.

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    Originally Posted by CoolClyde
    Novak drives to the hoop, Wood Son calls him out for it.
    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    i saw this on the excellent Mike Wood Son show on MSG.
    if you watched this show, i don't think you'd be dissing coach.
    Yep I saw this and coach really does address all this issues on the defensive end. He seriously gets on players in film sessions and calls them out. Unfortunately, none of this is making a difference in the game so far.

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    Woodson has to put a defense starting lineup... the nature of this team is to start attackin in the 4th quarter... remember the starting line up with the TWIN TOWERS camby and chandler... we need Brewer to just start games at least he doesnt have to play the whole damn game.. Chandler Melo Brewer Shump Felton starting..... then we take advantage of other teams benches and score with STAT, JR, Novak

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    oyea and FREE BREWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR..maybe if he played more often his 3s can start coming back!!

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    Originally Posted by CoolClyde
    i think this is a panic thread. Knicks lost to CP3-led Clippers and Wall-led Wizzers.
    other than those losses, Knicks have played pretty good; Amare is playing better
    each and every game, and Iman is still getting his legs as well. Plus, 2 of our bigs
    have been hurt for weeks (Gumby/Sheeeet). this is still not a complete team.

    Losing to a couple of the best PG's in the league is bound to happen, it is very hard
    to stop them when they're on their game.

    the Knicks recent losses were when JR, Novak and Kidd failed to show...
    this squad is all about the bench performing more than anything, the perimeter D will
    come, and the defense of the paint as well. these were issues you've talked about Red,
    and they still remain.

    to compare Wood Son and Antoni is just not fair. They are light years apart in terms
    of coaching styles and player interaction. Wood Son = fastest Knick coach to reach
    50 wins. c'mon now, give the guy a break.
    do you still feel this was a panic thread or somewhat founded and warranted? a 40 point lead?

    Knicks lack the one thing that separates the bad from good; good from great...

    Confidence. Half the game, is 90% mental- Yogi Berra

    This is troubling. Who will step up and seize this opportunity to lead?

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    Theres Tom Tibotheau, Frank Vogel, Popovich, Rick Aldeman, and even Mark Jackson...


    and then you have Mike Woodson. His system is weak and exposable. Too dependant on the players and it isolates the rest of the team. I love Melo, and he's one of the best, but this iso ball and weak perimeter defense...Woodson has to address that as a coach...Knicks should of been prepared to address these two departments since training camp.

    It's February. Not training camp.
    Knicks are late.
    Woodson is late.

    This is ridiculous.

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    Originally Posted by Red
    do you still feel this was a panic thread or somewhat founded and warranted? a 40 point lead?

    Knicks lack the one thing that separates the bad from good; good from great...

    Confidence. Half the game, is 90% mental- Yogi Berra

    This is troubling. Who will step up and seize this opportunity to lead?

    yes. knicks will rebound, led by STAT, Shumpert, Sheed, Camby and Jermaine O'Kneel

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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Theres Tom Tibotheau, Frank Vogel, Popovich, Rick Aldeman, and even Mark Jackson...


    and then you have Mike Woodson. His system is weak and exposable. Too dependant on the players and it isolates the rest of the team. I love Melo, and he's one of the best, but this iso ball and weak perimeter defense...Woodson has to address that as a coach...Knicks should of been prepared to address these two departments since training camp.

    It's February. Not training camp.
    Knicks are late.
    Woodson is late.

    This is ridiculous.
    100% agreed and you forgot Doc Rivers and Spoelstra (as much as I hate to say it).

    I still believe in the offense we are running, to a degree. When we move the ball at least. But there are so many failures in our offensive structure right now.

    With Melo, STAT and Tyson down low all of these guys are decent passers. All these guys draw double teams and all can pass out of it. Problem is oftentimes our guys are standing on the perimeter waiting to shoot a 3 when they should be cutting. When the cylinder is empty someone has to cut, or else everyone knows to just rush our 3 point shooters, and especially with how we've been shooting the 3 lately we can't expect to win games with 3 guys camped out behind the arc.

    Further to this, JR and to a lesser extent Felton are both guilty of going 1 on 1 far too frequently. I just don't understand who's bright idea it is that our fallback plan when shots aren't falling is to give it to one of the worst volume shooters in the league, let him attempt to break down his man with a few crossovers and then shoot a contested jumper with 15 seconds left on the shot clock. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE SEEN THAT THIS YEAR?!?!?

    We can bemoan injuries for our defensive frailties, but Camby and Sheed are NOT a big part of our offense and our offense frequently looks like a joke.

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    Originally Posted by smokes
    100% agreed and you forgot Doc Rivers and Spoelstra (as much as I hate to say it).

    I still believe in the offense we are running, to a degree. When we move the ball at least. But there are so many failures in our offensive structure right now.

    With Melo, STAT and Tyson down low all of these guys are decent passers. All these guys draw double teams and all can pass out of it. Problem is oftentimes our guys are standing on the perimeter waiting to shoot a 3 when they should be cutting. When the cylinder is empty someone has to cut, or else everyone knows to just rush our 3 point shooters, and especially with how we've been shooting the 3 lately we can't expect to win games with 3 guys camped out behind the arc.

    Further to this, JR and to a lesser extent Felton are both guilty of going 1 on 1 far too frequently. I just don't understand who's bright idea it is that our fallback plan when shots aren't falling is to give it to one of the worst volume shooters in the league, let him attempt to break down his man with a few crossovers and then shoot a contested jumper with 15 seconds left on the shot clock. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE SEEN THAT THIS YEAR?!?!?

    We can bemoan injuries for our defensive frailties, but Camby and Sheed are NOT a big part of our offense and our offense frequently looks like a joke.
    My issue is the small ball and falling in love with the 3 early.

    If we don't get back to Melo purposely stepping up his D like when we started we don't stand a chance.

    Coach should have addressed the 3's at volume early instead of conditioning his players that it was alright.

    Now we lack belief and that can ruin everything. Whether we shoot 3's at volume or not, I'm wondering why our "defensive" coach hasn't figured out that 2 defenders must be on the floor at all times.

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    Expect to see the true Knicks in their next game. I’m not really concerned about the games before the AllStar break or the games before the trade deadline because in those games players are usually sucking due to their minds being on trade rumors.

    I just can’t give a fair assessment when I know that I too (and anyone else) will not be as focused if our names come up in trade talks. All I’ll probably be thinking is about all the sacrifices I made (on and off the court), and the gelling we worked on was a waste of time. My hopes of winning with the team will turn into “I don’t give a fvck” attitude.
    I’m saving all of my heated rants for after the next game (if they still are sucking). The rotation should be tighter because coach will know who is staying and whose leaving; he gave everyone a chance so now there aren’t many excuses left….other than getting any newly acquired teammates adjusted. This stretch of the season will reveal what teams are really about. We’re still in a good position and perhaps I may be overly optimistic, but I just don’t see much to panic over yet. To be clear…I do see the concerns but I also see how certain things can and will be improved once this year’s roster is set in stone. After the trade deadline teams normally come together more and put in that extra effort going into the post season, they know they are there for the long haul.

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    Thumbs down Then & Now

    What happened to...

    Accountability?

    When we began coach preached accountability. Melo came focused and primed to prove all doubters wrong. Diving into the stands, swatting weak shots, and getting his teammates involved. JR was quickly subbed for when he made bone-headed blunders.

    Coach was screaming on out-of-position, complacent players. Immediately! Defensive anchors like TC and Sheet talked it up.

    Defense?

    While I like the acquisition of Martin, the transaction begs a few questions. Why wait until now? Why Brewer? Yes Brewer struggled but so too did Novak and others who didn't provide defense.

    Speaking of... wasn't Brewer a temporary replacement until the return of Shump? One who turned out to outperform our expectations and provided much needed defense? Didn't we learn from years past why devaluing a players worth based on offense is a mistake? What happened to that?

    Isn't it evident that TC needs help in the form of a perimeter (Shump, Brewer, Melo trying) defender and that players are more confused by constantly switching?

    Line-Up?

    What happened to coach "designing an offense that features our two stars"? Wasn't STAT IN THE STARTING LINE-UP prior to bumping knees? Wasn't Kidd another temporary fix? Why after going .500 for two months is he still starting over STAT?

    Kidd excelled by knocking down the open three... haven't we learned not to overvalue this trait without considering defense? His playing time also results in a shift of two players out of their normal positions. Haven't we learned what that could mean over the long run?

    Result

    By

    1. falling in love with the three (living and dying by)
    2. forgetting that STAT was our starter at the 4
    3. witnessing Melo excel at the 4 in an emergency/temporary situation
    4. forgetting that Brewer at least played D and Sheet at the least talked it up and altered shots
    5. over playing Kidd
    6. refusing to reel JR in
    7. trading Brewer
    8. signing Martin this late
    9. inconsistently playing some struggling players (Novak, Kidd) while sitting others (Brewer, Copeland, KT)

    Coach is sending the wrong message. This message is: three's are honored, defense is not. the line-up is not set. out of position players work. defensive mismatches work. there is no game plan for our stars.

    ...and is losing this team. I'm shm. This is just like D'antoni. Get back to playing defense and we'll win. Remember when everyone gave a concerted, obvious effort? When we didn't blame a poor shooting Brewer because we won with defense?

    The leaders of this team need to step up. One of them happens to be a neutered Amare Stoudemire and another needs to be Melo. This is hard to do with another similar trait i'm noticing between our former and our current coach... stubbornness.

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