My Concerns with Coach Woodson. Are you Mike Woodson, or Mike D'Antoni?

nyk_nyk

All Star
Novak drives to the hoop, Wood Son calls him out for it.
http://sulia.com/channel/new-york-knicks/f/217be2b8-45f4-4bec-9155-18bc6b36b773/?source=twitter

i saw this on the excellent Mike Wood Son show on MSG.
if you watched this show, i don't think you'd be dissing coach.

Yep I saw this and coach really does address all this issues on the defensive end. He seriously gets on players in film sessions and calls them out. Unfortunately, none of this is making a difference in the game so far.
 

Number3

Benchwarmer
Woodson has to put a defense starting lineup... the nature of this team is to start attackin in the 4th quarter... remember the starting line up with the TWIN TOWERS camby and chandler... we need Brewer to just start games at least he doesnt have to play the whole damn game.. Chandler Melo Brewer Shump Felton starting..... then we take advantage of other teams benches and score with STAT, JR, Novak
 

Number3

Benchwarmer
oyea and FREE BREWERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR..maybe if he played more often his 3s can start coming back!!
 

Red

TYPE-A
i think this is a panic thread. Knicks lost to CP3-led Clippers and Wall-led Wizzers.
other than those losses, Knicks have played pretty good; Amare is playing better
each and every game, and Iman is still getting his legs as well. Plus, 2 of our bigs
have been hurt for weeks (Gumby/Sheeeet). this is still not a complete team.

Losing to a couple of the best PG's in the league is bound to happen, it is very hard
to stop them when they're on their game.

the Knicks recent losses were when JR, Novak and Kidd failed to show...
this squad is all about the bench performing more than anything, the perimeter D will
come, and the defense of the paint as well. these were issues you've talked about Red,
and they still remain.

to compare Wood Son and Antoni is just not fair. They are light years apart in terms
of coaching styles and player interaction. Wood Son = fastest Knick coach to reach
50 wins. c'mon now, give the guy a break.

do you still feel this was a panic thread or somewhat founded and warranted? a 40 point lead?

Knicks lack the one thing that separates the bad from good; good from great...

Confidence. Half the game, is 90% mental- Yogi Berra

This is troubling. Who will step up and seize this opportunity to lead?
 

metrocard

Legend
Theres Tom Tibotheau, Frank Vogel, Popovich, Rick Aldeman, and even Mark Jackson...


and then you have Mike Woodson. His system is weak and exposable. Too dependant on the players and it isolates the rest of the team. I love Melo, and he's one of the best, but this iso ball and weak perimeter defense...Woodson has to address that as a coach...Knicks should of been prepared to address these two departments since training camp.

It's February. Not training camp.
Knicks are late.
Woodson is late.

This is ridiculous.
 

CoolClyde

Moderator
do you still feel this was a panic thread or somewhat founded and warranted? a 40 point lead?

Knicks lack the one thing that separates the bad from good; good from great...

Confidence. Half the game, is 90% mental- Yogi Berra

This is troubling. Who will step up and seize this opportunity to lead?


yes. knicks will rebound, led by STAT, Shumpert, Sheed, Camby and Jermaine O'Kneel
 

smokes

Huge Member
Theres Tom Tibotheau, Frank Vogel, Popovich, Rick Aldeman, and even Mark Jackson...


and then you have Mike Woodson. His system is weak and exposable. Too dependant on the players and it isolates the rest of the team. I love Melo, and he's one of the best, but this iso ball and weak perimeter defense...Woodson has to address that as a coach...Knicks should of been prepared to address these two departments since training camp.

It's February. Not training camp.
Knicks are late.
Woodson is late.

This is ridiculous.

100% agreed and you forgot Doc Rivers and Spoelstra (as much as I hate to say it).

I still believe in the offense we are running, to a degree. When we move the ball at least. But there are so many failures in our offensive structure right now.

With Melo, STAT and Tyson down low all of these guys are decent passers. All these guys draw double teams and all can pass out of it. Problem is oftentimes our guys are standing on the perimeter waiting to shoot a 3 when they should be cutting. When the cylinder is empty someone has to cut, or else everyone knows to just rush our 3 point shooters, and especially with how we've been shooting the 3 lately we can't expect to win games with 3 guys camped out behind the arc.

Further to this, JR and to a lesser extent Felton are both guilty of going 1 on 1 far too frequently. I just don't understand who's bright idea it is that our fallback plan when shots aren't falling is to give it to one of the worst volume shooters in the league, let him attempt to break down his man with a few crossovers and then shoot a contested jumper with 15 seconds left on the shot clock. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE SEEN THAT THIS YEAR?!?!?

We can bemoan injuries for our defensive frailties, but Camby and Sheed are NOT a big part of our offense and our offense frequently looks like a joke.
 

Red

TYPE-A
100% agreed and you forgot Doc Rivers and Spoelstra (as much as I hate to say it).

I still believe in the offense we are running, to a degree. When we move the ball at least. But there are so many failures in our offensive structure right now.

With Melo, STAT and Tyson down low all of these guys are decent passers. All these guys draw double teams and all can pass out of it. Problem is oftentimes our guys are standing on the perimeter waiting to shoot a 3 when they should be cutting. When the cylinder is empty someone has to cut, or else everyone knows to just rush our 3 point shooters, and especially with how we've been shooting the 3 lately we can't expect to win games with 3 guys camped out behind the arc.

Further to this, JR and to a lesser extent Felton are both guilty of going 1 on 1 far too frequently. I just don't understand who's bright idea it is that our fallback plan when shots aren't falling is to give it to one of the worst volume shooters in the league, let him attempt to break down his man with a few crossovers and then shoot a contested jumper with 15 seconds left on the shot clock. HOW MANY TIMES HAVE WE SEEN THAT THIS YEAR?!?!?

We can bemoan injuries for our defensive frailties, but Camby and Sheed are NOT a big part of our offense and our offense frequently looks like a joke.

My issue is the small ball and falling in love with the 3 early.

If we don't get back to Melo purposely stepping up his D like when we started we don't stand a chance.

Coach should have addressed the 3's at volume early instead of conditioning his players that it was alright.

Now we lack belief and that can ruin everything. Whether we shoot 3's at volume or not, I'm wondering why our "defensive" coach hasn't figured out that 2 defenders must be on the floor at all times.
 
Expect to see the true Knicks in their next game. I?m not really concerned about the games before the AllStar break or the games before the trade deadline because in those games players are usually sucking due to their minds being on trade rumors.

I just can?t give a fair assessment when I know that I too (and anyone else) will not be as focused if our names come up in trade talks. All I?ll probably be thinking is about all the sacrifices I made (on and off the court), and the gelling we worked on was a waste of time. My hopes of winning with the team will turn into ?I don?t give a fvck? attitude.
I?m saving all of my heated rants for after the next game (if they still are sucking). The rotation should be tighter because coach will know who is staying and whose leaving; he gave everyone a chance so now there aren?t many excuses left?.other than getting any newly acquired teammates adjusted. This stretch of the season will reveal what teams are really about. We?re still in a good position and perhaps I may be overly optimistic, but I just don?t see much to panic over yet. To be clear?I do see the concerns but I also see how certain things can and will be improved once this year?s roster is set in stone. After the trade deadline teams normally come together more and put in that extra effort going into the post season, they know they are there for the long haul.
 

Red

TYPE-A
Then & Now

What happened to...

Accountability?

When we began coach preached accountability. Melo came focused and primed to prove all doubters wrong. Diving into the stands, swatting weak shots, and getting his teammates involved. JR was quickly subbed for when he made bone-headed blunders.

Coach was screaming on out-of-position, complacent players. Immediately! Defensive anchors like TC and Sheet talked it up.

Defense?

While I like the acquisition of Martin, the transaction begs a few questions. Why wait until now? Why Brewer? Yes Brewer struggled but so too did Novak and others who didn't provide defense.

Speaking of... wasn't Brewer a temporary replacement until the return of Shump? One who turned out to outperform our expectations and provided much needed defense? Didn't we learn from years past why devaluing a players worth based on offense is a mistake? What happened to that?

Isn't it evident that TC needs help in the form of a perimeter (Shump, Brewer, Melo trying) defender and that players are more confused by constantly switching?

Line-Up?

What happened to coach "designing an offense that features our two stars"? Wasn't STAT IN THE STARTING LINE-UP prior to bumping knees? Wasn't Kidd another temporary fix? Why after going .500 for two months is he still starting over STAT?

Kidd excelled by knocking down the open three... haven't we learned not to overvalue this trait without considering defense? His playing time also results in a shift of two players out of their normal positions. Haven't we learned what that could mean over the long run?

Result

By

1. falling in love with the three (living and dying by)
2. forgetting that STAT was our starter at the 4
3. witnessing Melo excel at the 4 in an emergency/temporary situation
4. forgetting that Brewer at least played D and Sheet at the least talked it up and altered shots
5. over playing Kidd
6. refusing to reel JR in
7. trading Brewer
8. signing Martin this late
9. inconsistently playing some struggling players (Novak, Kidd) while sitting others (Brewer, Copeland, KT)

Coach is sending the wrong message. This message is: three's are honored, defense is not. the line-up is not set. out of position players work. defensive mismatches work. there is no game plan for our stars.

...and is losing this team. I'm shm. This is just like D'antoni. Get back to playing defense and we'll win. Remember when everyone gave a concerted, obvious effort? When we didn't blame a poor shooting Brewer because we won with defense?

The leaders of this team need to step up. One of them happens to be a neutered Amare Stoudemire and another needs to be Melo. This is hard to do with another similar trait i'm noticing between our former and our current coach... stubbornness.
 

Red

TYPE-A
Smh

Coach Woodson really has me shaking my head (SMH).

1. No Amare (our other star) down the stretch

2. No K-Mart, although we need size and defense

3. No moves made to replace Wallace until the deadline, and then he sits the replacement (see 2)

4. So many minutes for Novak

5. Smith as streaky as a modern day Starks

6. Shump playing the 3

7. Small lineups

Wtf is this guy doing?

8. Camby warming the bench

Yo!

9. James White starting?

Really!?

The only logic for these moves is Woodson is comfortable with our lead and will change things up (rotation wise) come the playoffs.

I didn't mention jettisoning Brewer, one of only 3 defenders we had.

You blow a 16 point lead... you deserve criticism.

Woodson has me smh. I think we can all see the writing on the wall.

On paper we are one of the deepest teams in the league. Our size alone should give teams fits. But we'll keep this self defeating thing going right up until we pack are bags and go on vacation to play golf.

Tell me, given this exact team and circumstances (Wallace out forever)... what would Phil Jackson do?

You think he'd sit STAT citing injury recovery time, yet start Shump out of position off an Acl injury?

Smh. Just smh. Coach downgrade.
 
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Scipio

Benchwarmer
There is no doubt that Woodson is looking more like Mike D`Antoni than Mike D`Antoni looks like Mike D`Antoni.

What the hell is wrong with his starting five? His subs? Pathetic.

Put Shump in his position of shooting guard. Melo at the 3. Amare at the 4.

I`m rapidly losing faith in Woodson. And to make matters worse he is actually retrograding as the season goes on.
 

jimkcchief88

All Star
I hate to say it but Woody got outcoached yesterday. Spo moves to take the ball out of MELO's hands on the 3rd and where was the counter-move??? And to just sit and watch JR shoot you out of the game???? I knew that last TO was coming cause when JR starts playing too fast he does dumb stuff...Woody says he is going to "discuss" shot selection with JR???? I would have "discussed" it with JR in-game about 6 inches from his face, spittle flying, while JR was on the BENCH sitting next to me....I also would have "discussed" with officials the no-calls on our offensive end. Crybaby Bron got his 2 cents in, so would I even if I ended up getting tossed....You can't let the zebras rob your team in your own house.... Seriously from college to NBA basketball is becominng unwatchable because the of the officiating...The blown/no-calls in favor of the blueblood teams is ridiculous:(
 
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nyk_nyk

All Star
Coach Woodson really has me shaking my head (SMH).

1. No Amare (our other star) down the stretch

2. No K-Mart, although we need size and defense

3. No moves made to replace Wallace until the deadline, and then he sits the replacement (see 2)

4. So may minutes for Novak

5. Smith as streaky as a moder day Starks

6. Shump playing the 3

7. Small lineups

Wtf is this guy doing?

8. Camby warming the bench

Yo!

9. James White starting?

Really!?

The only logic for these moves is Woodson is comfortable with our lead and will change things up (rotation wise) come the playoffs.

I didn't mention jettisoning Brewer, one of only 3 defenders we had.

You blow a 16 point lead... you deserve criticism.

Woodson has me smh. I think we can all see the writing on the wall.

On paper we are one of the deepest teams in the league. Our size alone should give teams fits. But we'll keep this self defeating thing going right up until we pack are bags and go on vacation to play golf.

Tell me, given this exact team and circumstances (Wallace out forever)... what would Phil Jackson do?

You think he'd sit STAT citing injury recovery time, yet start Shum out of position off an Acl injury?

Smh. Just smh. Coach downgrade.

I don't understand it either Red. I was under the impression that Woody was very different than Dantoni but there are way too many similarities. Not sure how you tell the media that Camby has been working and practicing hard to get back but then sits all game. This is the same guy that said Camby is a big piece to the puzzle. Also, you make a great point about Wallace and his replacement.

Amare is put on a 30 minute limit but only plays just above 20 minutes. What the hell is going on here??? The Heat were very thankful for that little gift. So I guess Woodson is waiting until the playoffs to get Camby and Martin some quality minutes but will they have team chemistry by then? MIA had Birdman playing as soon as they got him becasue they needed what he was good at. Wish we would have that same decision making. Martin has that hustle gene which you can't teach. Let the man get out there and get us some stops and rebounds!
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
I knew that last TO was coming cause when JR starts playing too fast he does dumb stuff...Woody says he is going to "discuss" shot selection with JR???? I would have "discussed" it with JR in-game about 6 inches from his face, spittle flying, while JR was on the BENCH sitting next to me

Exactly! I'm not sure why JR EVER needs to be the primary ball handler when you have either Felton or Kidd playing the point. Sometimes he brings the ball up and thinks he can initiate the offense. WTF?

I said this in the game thread but Woodson cannot be serious about wanting to "discuss" JR's shot selection AFTER THE GAME. This is what you do in the huddle or on the bench! Also, where were all the assistant coaches on this? Was there not ONE guy who felt the way we did and could say something?????? Our bench is filled with a bunch of "happy to be employed" assistant coaching yes men!
 

Kidd Karma

Benchwarmer
Exactly! I'm not sure why JR EVER needs to be the primary ball handler when you have either Felton or Kidd playing the point. Sometimes he brings the ball up and thinks he can initiate the offense. WTF?

I said this in the game thread but Woodson cannot be serious about wanting to "discuss" JR's shot selection AFTER THE GAME. This is what you do in the huddle or on the bench! Also, where were all the assistant coaches on this? Was there not ONE guy who felt the way we did and could say something?????? Our bench is filled with a bunch of "happy to be employed" assistant coaching yes men!

Agreed, this is an in game issue, you need to say something and see if you're getting through to him, if not you move onto plan b. I also thought late in the game, 8 minutes or so, no Felton until we were down by 6. I think Woodson is leaning too heavily on Kidd, great Kidd hit those 3's, but you can't expect it to continue to 25 points. You need to go with your rotation, Felton, Shump, Melo, Amare/JR and Chandler, with 8 minutes on in, and if needed, swing Kidd back in. Kidd saw 34 minutes off the bench...still wearing out his thread.
 

Red

TYPE-A
Exactly! I'm not sure why JR EVER needs to be the primary ball handler when you have either Felton or Kidd playing the point. Sometimes he brings the ball up and thinks he can initiate the offense. WTF?

I said this in the game thread but Woodson cannot be serious about wanting to "discuss" JR's shot selection AFTER THE GAME. This is what you do in the huddle or on the bench! Also, where were all the assistant coaches on this? Was there not ONE guy who felt the way we did and could say something?????? Our bench is filled with a bunch of "happy to be employed" assistant coaching yes men!

Real talk indeed.

So coach decided to talk to JR about his shot selection huh? That's good. Only problem is it's GAME NUMBER 56! And more if we count preseason. Its a bit too late don't you think?

And about K-Mart. After his first game with us and a few minutes of playing time he was interviewed and said: We ran NO SETS... WE PRETTY MUCH FREESTYLED OUT THERE!

What? It has become more and more apparent we are playing checkers in a game of chess. It appeared to me, many times, that we were not running plays. And that's with a group of regulars. It was evident when I saw senseless, needless passes between two players standing right in front of each other.

It became apparent when I couldn't see discernible offense there to get players shots where they are comfortable.

Recall at the beginning of every game, the very first play was Melo through two staggered screens for a mid_range jumper, left elbow? That was by design.

Then I see play after play; situation after situation; hot and or cold players not enjoying the luxury of having a play called designed specifically for them.

Its pathetic and D'Antoni at his worst. Just let'm play. They'll figureit out.

And about Novak. Oh' so now he's the perfect Ray Allen antithesis? Every minute Ray got Novak got. Let alone this dudes D is by far the worst.

And Keeping our bigs on the bench purposefully... that's not because Camby or anyone was hurt. That was a needless, self-defeating decision since day 1.

Perhaps Woodson read the Tea leaves and said exactly what we wanted to hear.. that it's all about defense. With Brewer gone after being Sat. Novak getting continuous burn. And about 20+ feet of viable big riding the pine... he could have fooled me. Smh

16 point lead means the team didn't beat us.. we beat ourselves. Now that's D'antoni!
 

Number3

Benchwarmer
Wherea prigionis minutes.. Hes a for sure at least 6 assists.. Dont ever put Novak against the heat.. Its like playin with 4 players
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
Even after last nights win, I seriously believe the Knicks are in trouble. The eye test tells me they're just middle of the pack right now. We need to implement a traditional starting lineup ASAP since Camby and Martin are ready to go. Start your best players and let your bench do what they do. Having Camby and KM means we have some depth again.

Woodson needs to have TC, Stat, Melo, Shump and Felton comfortable as a unit at least before the final 3 weeks of the season. That's who I want to go to war with. You still have a solid bench of:

Camby
Martin
Novak/Copeland
JR/Kidd
Prigs/Kidd
 
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