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Thread: Ball movement vs. Iso melo? Question for you BALLERS in the know.

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    Default Ball movement vs. Iso melo? Question for you BALLERS in the know.

    It was said best by DOC RIVERS after the Celtic's series...."THE KICKS CAN BEAT ANYONE IF THEY PLAY RIGHT". So what did Doc mean? I think he knows when Melo and JR stop trusting their team mates and try to create on their own especially in a game where hitting the open man is working the Knicks regress.
    Nevertheless, I am the king of NO...NO...YES after Melo and/or JR hit spectacular shots not in the sets that the Knicks run I am astounded. When they miss I am pissed.
    There's are a plethora of {for the Europeans it means plenty of} opinions on whose favored. Actually the European's post better grammatical English here than the boys from the hood.
    Who will it be,the best 3 POINT shooting KNICKS or the best defending 3 POINT Pacers? Will their big front line intimidate our smaller starting line up? Will Woodson change his game plan early going with TYSON, K MART, MELO, FELTON and JR for most of the game?
    Will Hansborough and West be aiming for Melo's shoulder? Ofcourse they wil. A retorical question....lol. Will the Knicks hit Stephanson where he hurts?
    Rather than just "GO KNICKS"...Enquireing Minds want to know what must the Knicks and Woodson do for the Knicks to advance?
    Knicks in 7 if they hold Home court.

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    right now Knicks limited 3pt shooting over 50% than in RS.

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    Obviously ball movement is always the way to go. And while I know that Melo and JR have reps as ball stoppers and bad shot takers (cause they do that sometimes, obviously) I honestly don't know how much of this is those players and their styles vs Coach.

    Take a look at this article from 2010:

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


    The last of those seasons included the best regular season record in many years — 53 wins and a third seed in the East. However it ended with a historic flame out against the Orlando Magic in the second round of the playoffs, one where the limits of Woodson’s isolation-heavy offense were exposed.
    I like Coach Woodson, but let's be honest, the Knicks early success was just penetrate, kick, swing the ball, shoot. Pretty simple and effective when shots are falling. Then it regressed from that to...I don't even know...then we saw some more ball movement promoted when Prigs was put in the lineup, late in the season.

    The issue even plagued the team late in game 6 when the lead evaporated with Kidd and Prigs on the bench. Woodson is a better coach than his ATL days, but the offense that helped Joe Johnson get the nickname "Iso Joe" (I don't recall him having that name before Woody showed up) made it's appearance several times this season, and it's back again.

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    It baffles me frankly...we dominate teams with ball movement then in the 4th (when teams are tired and running all over the perimeter to close out on shooters is hardest) we go one on one!?

    Ive said it before there is def a place for Iso in team's offense who has a scorer like Melo yet when teams can count on us going Iso it is too easy to defend!

    Again I like Woody but I hope hes not going to be stubborn about this...furthermore, doesnt Melo realize the ineffectiveness of him going ISO?

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    Originally Posted by New New York
    It baffles me frankly...we dominate teams with ball movement then in the 4th (when teams are tired and running all over the perimeter to close out on shooters is hardest) we go one on one!?

    Ive said it before there is def a place for Iso in team's offense who has a scorer like Melo yet when teams can count on us going Iso it is too easy to defend!

    Again I like Woody but I hope hes not going to be stubborn about this...furthermore, doesnt Melo realize the ineffectiveness of him going ISO?

    No Melo does not understand.
    JR does not understand....
    Woodson does understand but he coaches scared and figures our best way to get basket is ISO rather then the best opportunity shot we can take......WOODY coaches scared.......
    Look at Game 5 Prigioni played 13 minutes..........Now why in the world would you do that and have JR who was miserable that game play 36 minutes.........

    Every missed shot by JR and Melo is an opportunity for the team.........ISO BLOWS.......

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    Originally Posted by New New York
    It baffles me frankly...we dominate teams with ball movement then in the 4th (when teams are tired and running all over the perimeter to close out on shooters is hardest) we go one on one!?

    Ive said it before there is def a place for Iso in team's offense who has a scorer like Melo yet when teams can count on us going Iso it is too easy to defend!

    Again I like Woody but I hope hes not going to be stubborn about this...furthermore, doesnt Melo realize the ineffectiveness of him going ISO?
    It's simple:

    1. When you're hot, no one complains... When you're not, DRIVE THE ROCK.

    2. Didn't we ask WHEN WAS WOODY GOING TO CUT THE SMALL BALL SH*T; when was he going to incorporate Melo, KMART, and TC? because we all knew that Melo at the 4 would be a problem with a team like this, and STAT missing wasn't an excuses at the time.

    Melo vs George should be advantage Melo
    Kmart's D should help neutralize West
    TC vs RH should be advantage TC

    Shump vs Stevenson should be advantage Shump
    Felton is a question vs Hill but should hold his own

    But when you try the D'Antoni **** (3 guards, shift everyone out of position) you nullify your advantages assuming Melo has one at the 4.

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    Ball movement has never been in Melo & JR talents/skills .. Woody is not going to call any offensive-plays when Melo & JR are on the court demanding teammates to give them the ball. Coach Woodson is not going to upset Melo, which will lead to Woody being fired.

    HOF Jason Kidd's success in the NBA (averaging 10+ assist for over 15 years) are from "Ball-Movement".
    Kidd's performance at the point always improve his teammates performance on offense & defense.
    In Kidd's 18 season performance u did not see any "ISO-Plays" from Kidd's teammates when he was in Dallas, Phoenix, Nets, and Dallas again.
    The Dallas Mavs super-star Dirk became a "catch n shoot" specialist with Kidd at the point.

    I watch an entire 82 game season where Kidd & coach Woodson had to change their method of NBA Basketball to fit into Carmelo Anthony "ISO-Ball" performance.
    No-matter how weak the majority of the teams are in the NBA, u are not going to win 50 games off of an "ISO-offense" without teammates stepping-up on the defensive-end of the court to close games.
    In 50 of our 54 wins in the 2012-13 season our 4th qtr. closer lineup always had Kidd & Tyson or Martin.
    Although, all the HYPE of our 54 win season were given to Melo & JR ISO-scoring.

    The Indiana Pacers beat us in the first game of a 7 game playoff series on our home court by Ball-Movement and great rebounding .. 7 Pacers players had double-diget scoring, plus Pacers outrebound us 44-30.

    I wonder what Woody (I mean Melo) new plan will be in the 2nd game of the series in MSG???

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    Originally Posted by DrB
    It was said best by DOC RIVERS after the Celtic's series...."THE KICKS CAN BEAT ANYONE IF THEY PLAY RIGHT". So what did Doc mean? I think he knows when Melo and JR stop trusting their team mates and try to create on their own especially in a game where hitting the open man is working the Knicks regress.
    Nevertheless, I am the king of NO...NO...YES after Melo and/or JR hit spectacular shots not in the sets that the Knicks run I am astounded. When they miss I am pissed.
    There's are a plethora of {for the Europeans it means plenty of} opinions on whose favored. Actually the European's post better grammatical English here than the boys from the hood.
    Who will it be,the best 3 POINT shooting KNICKS or the best defending 3 POINT Pacers? Will their big front line intimidate our smaller starting line up? Will Woodson change his game plan early going with TYSON, K MART, MELO, FELTON and JR for most of the game?
    Will Hansborough and West be aiming for Melo's shoulder? Ofcourse they wil. A retorical question....lol. Will the Knicks hit Stephanson where he hurts?
    Rather than just "GO KNICKS"...Enquireing Minds want to know what must the Knicks and Woodson do for the Knicks to advance?
    Knicks in 7 if they hold Home court.


    Hello KO,

    This is my first posting but I've been following for quite some time now. Honestly, I had so many issues getting my account approved to post messages I gave up and just read a lot of the posts (just as entertaining). You guys are hilarious too because most of you post like its a college discussion board here - and I know about those. Let me first start by saying that I love the Knicks and have done so since I was a kid growing up in Mount Vernon, NY. I played basketball religiously my entire youth and grew up with and played ball almost everyday with Ben Gordon of the Bobcats (just thought I'd throw that in there). But anyway, I too believe that the isolation ball is killing us. As many of you mentioned, our team plays significantly better when the ball movement is fluid. Simply put, it creates open shots and if you ask me, boosts confidence in the players because they always feel involved. It creates chemistry. It just feels more professional if you know what I mean. I think that's why shots are made. Woody is adamant in utilizing isolation because it got us to 54-28 for the season and frankly a 4-2 series victory over the Boston Celtics. So, when you look at the big picture, Woody is using what worked and feels that Melo/J.R. is in a slump that they will eventually overcome. When will he change the scheme when he realizes that it will not work in the second round? That's the million dollar question my friends.

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    Originally Posted by The Beatmaker
    Hello KO,

    This is my first posting but I've been following for quite some time now. Honestly, I had so many issues getting my account approved to post messages I gave up and just read a lot of the posts (just as entertaining).
    Welcome to KO, buddy! What problems did you have with your account? I usually approve all registrations that are not duplicated within just 2-3 days

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    Originally Posted by rady
    Welcome to KO, buddy! What problems did you have with your account? I usually approve all registrations that are not duplicated within just 2-3 days
    It just continued to tell me that my account was not approved

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    Again I have to ask: Who is Melo supposed to share the ball with????? Novak is out with a bad back....which is a huge loss because he spreads the floor and has to be accounted for....I don't want to hear about Jason Kidd because he looked scared to shoot the ball yesterday....Feltip is putting in work for sure, but when JR is off it puts ALL the pressure on Melo. It's on the rest of the team to move without the ball instead of taking pictures during the Iso plays. The Iso plays are drawn up to create mismatches and draw double teams. I hear "Melo-iso" is a bad word in the New York area, but don't caught listening to Colin Cowherd and the other talking heads who don't know the game . Bottom line a second scorer needs to step up to help Melo. You see how Melo is being defended: 2-3 defenders roughing him up and getting away with it because the refs are swallowing the whistle as far as Melo is concerned.

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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    Again I have to ask: Who is Melo supposed to share the ball with????? Novak is out with a bad back....which is a huge loss because he spreads the floor and has to be accounted for....I don't want to hear about Jason Kidd because he looked scared to shoot the ball yesterday....Feltip is putting in work for sure, but when JR is off it puts ALL the pressure on Melo. It's on the rest of the team to move without the ball instead of taking pictures during the Iso plays. The Iso plays are drawn up to create mismatches and draw double teams. I hear "Melo-iso" is a bad word in the New York area, but don't caught listening to Colin Cowherd and the other talking heads who don't know the game . Bottom line a second scorer needs to step up to help Melo. You see how Melo is being defended: 2-3 defenders roughing him up and getting away with it because the refs are swallowing the whistle as far as Melo is concerned.
    I disagree. You're simplifying it too much. Sharing the ball opens up opportunities for everyone PLUS it helps Melo get easier shots which can occur in motion. I believe Melo's talent warrants a certain amount of iso opportunities per game, but it needs to be a reason for it (possibly a mismatch). It can't just be any random moment when Melo feels like it. We've seen on many occasions that this team is tough to defend when shots are coming from all over the court. Defenses that don't have to switch and react to anything are always going to be strong.

    Example: Melo posts up and Felton takes about 4 sec to lob it in to him. At this point its about 8-10 sec left on the clock. If a team knows Melo isn't going to pass, they can load up on one side and make sure his lanes to the basket are all covered. Melo might hit a jumpshot, but the problem is against George it will be a tough shot most likely forced. Not smart basketball. This also takes teammates out the game offensively and gives IND more energy on offense.

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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    I disagree. You're simplifying it too much. Sharing the ball opens up opportunities for everyone PLUS it helps Melo get easier shots which can occur in motion. I believe Melo's talent warrants a certain amount of iso opportunities per game, but it needs to be a reason for it (possibly a mismatch). It can't just be any random moment when Melo feels like it. We've seen on many occasions that this team is tough to defend when shots are coming from all over the court. Defenses that don't have to switch and react to anything are always going to be strong.

    Example: Melo posts up and Felton takes about 4 sec to lob it in to him. At this point its about 8-10 sec left on the clock. If a team knows Melo isn't going to pass, they can load up on one side and make sure his lanes to the basket are all covered. Melo might hit a jumpshot, but the problem is against George it will be a tough shot most likely forced. Not smart basketball. This also takes teammates out the game offensively and gives IND more energy on offense.
    I think it's too simple to blame Melo every time we lose. You know why Hibbert has the luxury of camping out under the basket and throwing a block party???? Because Hibbert's KNICK counterpart(Tyson Chandler) is a total-non factor on the offensive side of the ball. No one is talking about how badly Tyson played yesterday because its all on Melo. Which is why Melo takes the shots because he knows the media and the sheeplike fans who listen to the talking heads will blame him win or lose. Same mentality that Kobe had. You lose with the ball in the hands of your best player, not role players.

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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    I think it's too simple to blame Melo every time we lose. You know why Hibbert has the luxury of camping out under the basket and throwing a block party???? Because Hibbert's KNICK counterpart(Tyson Chandler) is a total-non factor on the offensive side of the ball. No one is talking about how badly Tyson played yesterday because its all on Melo. Which is why Melo takes the shots because he knows the media and the sheeplike fans who listen to the talking heads will blame him win or lose. Same mentality that Kobe had. You lose with the ball in the hands of your best player, not role players.

    Jim .... reading all ur post on this thread .. u lost ur concept of basketball, especially the part of NBA Playoffs.

    When Tyson Chandler is given a alleyoop or dunk do u watch the energy he brings after? NO!
    Tyson brings unearthly energy after he scores, so getting Tyson hyped-up in the first half is a 85% win.
    Or did u forget Tyson performance in the Linsanity era .. Tyson was unstoppable on the glass.

    u mention who is going to score without Melo? the Knicks Team will score with HOF Jason Kidd callin the shots, or did u forget who started our 13 game win streak when Melo & Tyson went out with injury from a Denver Nuggets AAA Whupppin.
    Our Knicks players been waiting all season to be apart of the offense, but Dolan gave this team to Carmelo Anthony.
    Do u actually think Felton pinky finger injury kept him out for 4 weeks? or was it Felton averaging 19 shots per game from the start of the season? When Felton came back from injury he average 6 shots per game for 5 weeks.

    u should b more interested in why Melo's ex-teammate Camby is not getting any burn???

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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    Again I have to ask: Who is Melo supposed to share the ball with????? Novak is out with a bad back....which is a huge loss because he spreads the floor and has to be accounted for....I don't want to hear about Jason Kidd because he looked scared to shoot the ball yesterday....Feltip is putting in work for sure, but when JR is off it puts ALL the pressure on Melo. It's on the rest of the team to move without the ball instead of taking pictures during the Iso plays. The Iso plays are drawn up to create mismatches and draw double teams. I hear "Melo-iso" is a bad word in the New York area, but don't caught listening to Colin Cowherd and the other talking heads who don't know the game . Bottom line a second scorer needs to step up to help Melo. You see how Melo is being defended: 2-3 defenders roughing him up and getting away with it because the refs are swallowing the whistle as far as Melo is concerned.

    When the Ball moves the Knicks win........How can you actually argue the point the lack of ball movement is on anyone but JR and Melo...
    Are u watching what we are watching,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Coaches must laugh when we go to Iso ball.....

    ISO ball teams are well aware Melo or Jr will hold the ball and shoot. The rest of the defense gets to stand around and focus on the rebound and whoever is not guarding Melo/JR can break down the court....
    It is so F'ckin Predictable do you not see that...........
    If a kid was coaching he would say Give Melo the ball at let him shoot....this is what Woodson does,,,,

    Ball movement wins games..........move the ball make the opponents guys work on defense........

    Please do not use " who should melo pass it too "
    Put Durant or Lebron in Melo's shoes and I promise you they will find the open man.....

    Melo is capable but he becomes almost like a scorned kid who needs to prove to the other team he can beat them for that basket no matter what cost to the game,,,,,,,,,

    Melo wants to win but he sometimes does not see the forest from the tree's

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