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Thread: Ball movement vs. Iso melo? Question for you BALLERS in the know.

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    Default Ball movement vs. Iso melo? Question for you BALLERS in the know.

    It was said best by DOC RIVERS after the Celtic's series...."THE KICKS CAN BEAT ANYONE IF THEY PLAY RIGHT". So what did Doc mean? I think he knows when Melo and JR stop trusting their team mates and try to create on their own especially in a game where hitting the open man is working the Knicks regress.
    Nevertheless, I am the king of NO...NO...YES after Melo and/or JR hit spectacular shots not in the sets that the Knicks run I am astounded. When they miss I am pissed.
    There's are a plethora of {for the Europeans it means plenty of} opinions on whose favored. Actually the European's post better grammatical English here than the boys from the hood.
    Who will it be,the best 3 POINT shooting KNICKS or the best defending 3 POINT Pacers? Will their big front line intimidate our smaller starting line up? Will Woodson change his game plan early going with TYSON, K MART, MELO, FELTON and JR for most of the game?
    Will Hansborough and West be aiming for Melo's shoulder? Ofcourse they wil. A retorical question....lol. Will the Knicks hit Stephanson where he hurts?
    Rather than just "GO KNICKS"...Enquireing Minds want to know what must the Knicks and Woodson do for the Knicks to advance?
    Knicks in 7 if they hold Home court.

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    right now Knicks limited 3pt shooting over 50% than in RS.

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    Obviously ball movement is always the way to go. And while I know that Melo and JR have reps as ball stoppers and bad shot takers (cause they do that sometimes, obviously) I honestly don't know how much of this is those players and their styles vs Coach.

    Take a look at this article from 2010:

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


    The last of those seasons included the best regular season record in many years — 53 wins and a third seed in the East. However it ended with a historic flame out against the Orlando Magic in the second round of the playoffs, one where the limits of Woodson’s isolation-heavy offense were exposed.
    I like Coach Woodson, but let's be honest, the Knicks early success was just penetrate, kick, swing the ball, shoot. Pretty simple and effective when shots are falling. Then it regressed from that to...I don't even know...then we saw some more ball movement promoted when Prigs was put in the lineup, late in the season.

    The issue even plagued the team late in game 6 when the lead evaporated with Kidd and Prigs on the bench. Woodson is a better coach than his ATL days, but the offense that helped Joe Johnson get the nickname "Iso Joe" (I don't recall him having that name before Woody showed up) made it's appearance several times this season, and it's back again.

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    It baffles me frankly...we dominate teams with ball movement then in the 4th (when teams are tired and running all over the perimeter to close out on shooters is hardest) we go one on one!?

    Ive said it before there is def a place for Iso in team's offense who has a scorer like Melo yet when teams can count on us going Iso it is too easy to defend!

    Again I like Woody but I hope hes not going to be stubborn about this...furthermore, doesnt Melo realize the ineffectiveness of him going ISO?

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    Originally Posted by New New York
    It baffles me frankly...we dominate teams with ball movement then in the 4th (when teams are tired and running all over the perimeter to close out on shooters is hardest) we go one on one!?

    Ive said it before there is def a place for Iso in team's offense who has a scorer like Melo yet when teams can count on us going Iso it is too easy to defend!

    Again I like Woody but I hope hes not going to be stubborn about this...furthermore, doesnt Melo realize the ineffectiveness of him going ISO?

    No Melo does not understand.
    JR does not understand....
    Woodson does understand but he coaches scared and figures our best way to get basket is ISO rather then the best opportunity shot we can take......WOODY coaches scared.......
    Look at Game 5 Prigioni played 13 minutes..........Now why in the world would you do that and have JR who was miserable that game play 36 minutes.........

    Every missed shot by JR and Melo is an opportunity for the team.........ISO BLOWS.......

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    Originally Posted by DrB
    It was said best by DOC RIVERS after the Celtic's series...."THE KICKS CAN BEAT ANYONE IF THEY PLAY RIGHT". So what did Doc mean? I think he knows when Melo and JR stop trusting their team mates and try to create on their own especially in a game where hitting the open man is working the Knicks regress.
    Nevertheless, I am the king of NO...NO...YES after Melo and/or JR hit spectacular shots not in the sets that the Knicks run I am astounded. When they miss I am pissed.
    There's are a plethora of {for the Europeans it means plenty of} opinions on whose favored. Actually the European's post better grammatical English here than the boys from the hood.
    Who will it be,the best 3 POINT shooting KNICKS or the best defending 3 POINT Pacers? Will their big front line intimidate our smaller starting line up? Will Woodson change his game plan early going with TYSON, K MART, MELO, FELTON and JR for most of the game?
    Will Hansborough and West be aiming for Melo's shoulder? Ofcourse they wil. A retorical question....lol. Will the Knicks hit Stephanson where he hurts?
    Rather than just "GO KNICKS"...Enquireing Minds want to know what must the Knicks and Woodson do for the Knicks to advance?
    Knicks in 7 if they hold Home court.


    Hello KO,

    This is my first posting but I've been following for quite some time now. Honestly, I had so many issues getting my account approved to post messages I gave up and just read a lot of the posts (just as entertaining). You guys are hilarious too because most of you post like its a college discussion board here - and I know about those. Let me first start by saying that I love the Knicks and have done so since I was a kid growing up in Mount Vernon, NY. I played basketball religiously my entire youth and grew up with and played ball almost everyday with Ben Gordon of the Bobcats (just thought I'd throw that in there). But anyway, I too believe that the isolation ball is killing us. As many of you mentioned, our team plays significantly better when the ball movement is fluid. Simply put, it creates open shots and if you ask me, boosts confidence in the players because they always feel involved. It creates chemistry. It just feels more professional if you know what I mean. I think that's why shots are made. Woody is adamant in utilizing isolation because it got us to 54-28 for the season and frankly a 4-2 series victory over the Boston Celtics. So, when you look at the big picture, Woody is using what worked and feels that Melo/J.R. is in a slump that they will eventually overcome. When will he change the scheme when he realizes that it will not work in the second round? That's the million dollar question my friends.

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    Originally Posted by New New York
    It baffles me frankly...we dominate teams with ball movement then in the 4th (when teams are tired and running all over the perimeter to close out on shooters is hardest) we go one on one!?

    Ive said it before there is def a place for Iso in team's offense who has a scorer like Melo yet when teams can count on us going Iso it is too easy to defend!

    Again I like Woody but I hope hes not going to be stubborn about this...furthermore, doesnt Melo realize the ineffectiveness of him going ISO?
    It's simple:

    1. When you're hot, no one complains... When you're not, DRIVE THE ROCK.

    2. Didn't we ask WHEN WAS WOODY GOING TO CUT THE SMALL BALL SH*T; when was he going to incorporate Melo, KMART, and TC? because we all knew that Melo at the 4 would be a problem with a team like this, and STAT missing wasn't an excuses at the time.

    Melo vs George should be advantage Melo
    Kmart's D should help neutralize West
    TC vs RH should be advantage TC

    Shump vs Stevenson should be advantage Shump
    Felton is a question vs Hill but should hold his own

    But when you try the D'Antoni **** (3 guards, shift everyone out of position) you nullify your advantages assuming Melo has one at the 4.

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    Ball movement has never been in Melo & JR talents/skills .. Woody is not going to call any offensive-plays when Melo & JR are on the court demanding teammates to give them the ball. Coach Woodson is not going to upset Melo, which will lead to Woody being fired.

    HOF Jason Kidd's success in the NBA (averaging 10+ assist for over 15 years) are from "Ball-Movement".
    Kidd's performance at the point always improve his teammates performance on offense & defense.
    In Kidd's 18 season performance u did not see any "ISO-Plays" from Kidd's teammates when he was in Dallas, Phoenix, Nets, and Dallas again.
    The Dallas Mavs super-star Dirk became a "catch n shoot" specialist with Kidd at the point.

    I watch an entire 82 game season where Kidd & coach Woodson had to change their method of NBA Basketball to fit into Carmelo Anthony "ISO-Ball" performance.
    No-matter how weak the majority of the teams are in the NBA, u are not going to win 50 games off of an "ISO-offense" without teammates stepping-up on the defensive-end of the court to close games.
    In 50 of our 54 wins in the 2012-13 season our 4th qtr. closer lineup always had Kidd & Tyson or Martin.
    Although, all the HYPE of our 54 win season were given to Melo & JR ISO-scoring.

    The Indiana Pacers beat us in the first game of a 7 game playoff series on our home court by Ball-Movement and great rebounding .. 7 Pacers players had double-diget scoring, plus Pacers outrebound us 44-30.

    I wonder what Woody (I mean Melo) new plan will be in the 2nd game of the series in MSG???

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    Again I have to ask: Who is Melo supposed to share the ball with????? Novak is out with a bad back....which is a huge loss because he spreads the floor and has to be accounted for....I don't want to hear about Jason Kidd because he looked scared to shoot the ball yesterday....Feltip is putting in work for sure, but when JR is off it puts ALL the pressure on Melo. It's on the rest of the team to move without the ball instead of taking pictures during the Iso plays. The Iso plays are drawn up to create mismatches and draw double teams. I hear "Melo-iso" is a bad word in the New York area, but don't caught listening to Colin Cowherd and the other talking heads who don't know the game . Bottom line a second scorer needs to step up to help Melo. You see how Melo is being defended: 2-3 defenders roughing him up and getting away with it because the refs are swallowing the whistle as far as Melo is concerned.

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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    Again I have to ask: Who is Melo supposed to share the ball with????? Novak is out with a bad back....which is a huge loss because he spreads the floor and has to be accounted for....I don't want to hear about Jason Kidd because he looked scared to shoot the ball yesterday....Feltip is putting in work for sure, but when JR is off it puts ALL the pressure on Melo. It's on the rest of the team to move without the ball instead of taking pictures during the Iso plays. The Iso plays are drawn up to create mismatches and draw double teams. I hear "Melo-iso" is a bad word in the New York area, but don't caught listening to Colin Cowherd and the other talking heads who don't know the game . Bottom line a second scorer needs to step up to help Melo. You see how Melo is being defended: 2-3 defenders roughing him up and getting away with it because the refs are swallowing the whistle as far as Melo is concerned.
    I disagree. You're simplifying it too much. Sharing the ball opens up opportunities for everyone PLUS it helps Melo get easier shots which can occur in motion. I believe Melo's talent warrants a certain amount of iso opportunities per game, but it needs to be a reason for it (possibly a mismatch). It can't just be any random moment when Melo feels like it. We've seen on many occasions that this team is tough to defend when shots are coming from all over the court. Defenses that don't have to switch and react to anything are always going to be strong.

    Example: Melo posts up and Felton takes about 4 sec to lob it in to him. At this point its about 8-10 sec left on the clock. If a team knows Melo isn't going to pass, they can load up on one side and make sure his lanes to the basket are all covered. Melo might hit a jumpshot, but the problem is against George it will be a tough shot most likely forced. Not smart basketball. This also takes teammates out the game offensively and gives IND more energy on offense.

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    Originally Posted by jimkcchief88
    Again I have to ask: Who is Melo supposed to share the ball with????? Novak is out with a bad back....which is a huge loss because he spreads the floor and has to be accounted for....I don't want to hear about Jason Kidd because he looked scared to shoot the ball yesterday....Feltip is putting in work for sure, but when JR is off it puts ALL the pressure on Melo. It's on the rest of the team to move without the ball instead of taking pictures during the Iso plays. The Iso plays are drawn up to create mismatches and draw double teams. I hear "Melo-iso" is a bad word in the New York area, but don't caught listening to Colin Cowherd and the other talking heads who don't know the game . Bottom line a second scorer needs to step up to help Melo. You see how Melo is being defended: 2-3 defenders roughing him up and getting away with it because the refs are swallowing the whistle as far as Melo is concerned.

    When the Ball moves the Knicks win........How can you actually argue the point the lack of ball movement is on anyone but JR and Melo...
    Are u watching what we are watching,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Coaches must laugh when we go to Iso ball.....

    ISO ball teams are well aware Melo or Jr will hold the ball and shoot. The rest of the defense gets to stand around and focus on the rebound and whoever is not guarding Melo/JR can break down the court....
    It is so F'ckin Predictable do you not see that...........
    If a kid was coaching he would say Give Melo the ball at let him shoot....this is what Woodson does,,,,

    Ball movement wins games..........move the ball make the opponents guys work on defense........

    Please do not use " who should melo pass it too "
    Put Durant or Lebron in Melo's shoes and I promise you they will find the open man.....

    Melo is capable but he becomes almost like a scorned kid who needs to prove to the other team he can beat them for that basket no matter what cost to the game,,,,,,,,,

    Melo wants to win but he sometimes does not see the forest from the tree's

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    Great points. I think Melo ultimately means well but he just doesn't see the big picture. His cure-for-all is just to score. I personally think he has a low basketball IQ. YOu should be able to properly adjust your game by the 3rd quarter if you're really in tune with the game. The help defense closed in hard on Melo's drives but not once did he decide to use that opportunity to create shots for someone else. I also blame this on Woodson. Hibbert constantly left TC open to help on drives to the basket.

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    Originally Posted by nyk_nyk
    Great points. I think Melo ultimately means well but he just doesn't see the big picture. His cure-for-all is just to score. I personally think he has a low basketball IQ. YOu should be able to properly adjust your game by the 3rd quarter if you're really in tune with the game. The help defense closed in hard on Melo's drives but not once did he decide to use that opportunity to create shots for someone else. I also blame this on Woodson. Hibbert constantly left TC open to help on drives to the basket.

    After game 6 Melo said " I told my guys to use ms a decoy "
    That statement alobne shows a low Bball IQ.....
    Melo is no doubt one of the best offensive scorers in the NBA.
    The guy should realize in every game and every play he is a Decoy......
    He should shoot and drive when nobody else open....The problem is the ball never moves so we never have that opportunity..............Melo's offensive ability gets nullified by lack of Bball IQ to manipulate the dedense based on his superb scoring ability.............This is 100% what lebron does.

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    When I followed Kidd on the Mavs, announcers would be shocked to see Nowitzki with 4 points on 2 shots at the half, but end up with something like 30 points, 20 in the 4th. This is normally what happens in playoff basketball, the first 3 quarters, there should be a ball movement, running through a system, first 3 quarters, Melo and Smith are more dangerous as facilitators. The only movement we get is teammates clearing out. You'd like to see more scissor cut, off ball screens for spot up shooters, more sets being executed. When you get to crunch time, the final 5-8 minutes of the game, you would like Melo and Smith to both have a decently filled gas tank, this is where you isolate either player....moreso Melo, unless you get smith attacking the cup. Melo is your bread and butter. Since every single 4th quarter possession is magnified in a contest where the deficit is no more than 5 points. When you isolate Melo, there's less chance of a turnover, via the ball movement route. You get Melo into his sweet spot quickly, if not, you repost or reset it and attack Melo again. Dirk was always great when a 2nd man comes, he'll get it out fast and then there's a swing around the horn to the open shooter...at the time it was Jet. Here that guy can be JR. I think the team needs to realize we need to save Melo and smith for the stretch run, facilitate the system in the early going. Get Shump, Felton, Ty going early in the game.

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    Originally Posted by skisloper
    After game 6 Melo said " I told my guys to use ms a decoy "
    That statement alobne shows a low Bball IQ.....
    Melo is no doubt one of the best offensive scorers in the NBA.
    The guy should realize in every game and every play he is a Decoy......
    He should shoot and drive when nobody else open....The problem is the ball never moves so we never have that opportunity..............Melo's offensive ability gets nullified by lack of Bball IQ to manipulate the dedense based on his superb scoring ability.............This is 100% what lebron does.
    Yea, Melo's IQ does not compare with Lebron's. Hearing all year Kidd's been helpful to Melo....looks like Kidd's been giving him hoops 101 lessons.

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