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Thread: 2013 NBA draft (rev 2.0)

  1. #61
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lercher
    @metro: what's the story behind your hate towards Felton? We all know he'll never be a star PG, but statistically he ranks 6th among the top PGs in the East:

    And we have to take into account that: a) because of our small lineup Ray had to share the ball with Kidd/Prigs; b) we ran our offense partially through our two guards in Shump/Smith and c) our offense isn't PG oriented (give it to Melo). IMO considering all of the above being the 6th best PG in the East is pretty decent.
    Hence the need for frontline help, as I posed earlier in the thread.

  2. #62
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    I don't really have too much of an issue with Felton. If the opportunity to grab someone better comes along then i would jump on it but he's like 9th on our lists of problems. Teams with great PGs rarely win titles. Plus he was easily the mvp of that celtics series.

  3. #63
    Veteran Wargames's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rob Low
    I don't really have too much of an issue with Felton. If the opportunity to grab someone better comes along then i would jump on it but he's like 9th on our lists of problems. Teams with great PGs rarely win titles. Plus he was easily the mvp of that celtics series.
    I agree with you 100%

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    Lawal -- who played with the Knicks' [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] at Georgia Tech from 2008-10 -- could be the Knicks' next international gem, as he does exactly what the team was missing against the Pacers in the second round of the playoffs.

    "I like to play physical, I like to rebound, I like to finish strong, I like to get in there and bump and grind," said the 6-foot-9 Lawal, who's focused on improving his midrange jump shot. "When I go on the court, I just try to be a beast and dominate, get every rebound I can. Plus, I can run, I'm quick off my feet and I'm a fighter at the end of the day. I've been around, man. I'm young, but I consider myself seasoned."
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  5. #65
    Veteran Wargames's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Rob Low
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    See thats good to hear. Though the fact f*cking espn is writing about lowers the knicks chance of getting him. If he plays defense and can shoot then he could be exactly what the knicks need in a forward.

    Alot of decent NBA players have come out of that college program (including shump of course) and the knicks have a top 5 european scouting team at this point.

  6. #66
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    Originally Posted by Rob Low
    I don't really have too much of an issue with Felton. If the opportunity to grab someone better comes along then i would jump on it but he's like 9th on our lists of problems. Teams with great PGs rarely win titles. Plus he was easily the mvp of that celtics series.
    finally getting back online and good to see the changes on KO...

    i think felton is an above average PG. no way is there 20 better PGs in the league better than him...

    as far as the draft goes.. i dont see any real valus at 24 unless we can get dieng... but it appeasr he will be off the board by then.. if we cant trade up then it is probably best that trade down and get some picks latter in the first round and in the second..

    i mostly ingtrigued by nate wolters.. everything you need in a PG.. while his defense is not great.. neither has steve nash been know for his defense .. and he turned out to be an MVP....

    i also like pierre jackson and ray mccullam for PGs
    bigs.. i like muscalla and interested in aj matthews... also like the do dilegence on gani lawal in FA.. we need toughness..
    sleeper could be ricardo lido

  7. #67
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    His statistics aren't really impressive.
    Ranks 6th amongst the top PG's in the East? in what? You stated nothing behind that post. You just labeled him 6th because you choose to.

    Anyone who can't name 20 PG's better than Felton doesn't have enough depth into the NBA and other teams that have stronger PG's offensively and defensively. He's barely any better than back up PG's like Jack, Bledsoe, Robinson or Barea. What makes you think he's better than most starting PG's?

    Parker
    Paul
    Williams
    Rondo
    Westbrook
    Rose
    Curry
    Rubio
    Lawson
    Walker
    Wall
    Teague
    Conley
    Dragic
    Holliday
    Lilliard
    Lowry
    Jennings
    Jack
    Bledsoe
    Vasquez
    Hill
    Barea
    hell even Ridnour, Rubio and Andre Miller hold it down more than Felton.

    You have to rank your players by offense, defense, court awareness and how they make their teammates better and how they impact the floor.


    Lecher this is where you failed.
    You posted offensive stats only.
    Felton is a bottom 40 defensive PG.
    He played defense for 7 games all season long, and most of those were against the weakest back court in the NBA, the Rondoless Celtics. Terry, Bradley and Lee isn't much compared to the average NBA backcourt.

    The fact that Felton is so poor on defense, but yet you IGNORE it and rank him 6th shows you're being mindless of this entire conversation.

    We need more out of the PG position and Felton isn't that guy...on defense and on offense. His jumpshot isn't strong, average at best. He's not a great passer, he makes the right pass but not too often.

    People who support Raymond Felton are probably the same type of guys who settle for poor diets, unattractive women just for a lay and not a high quality of life...they just live life to get by. Felton is the symbol of that. Just to get by. Fill the PG duties just to get by, not but make an IMPACT.

    Settle for decent. That's the best thing you can call Felton, decent.
    I'll be a Knick fan who will seek for more than decent.

    Originally Posted by Lercher
    @metro: what's the story behind your hate towards Felton? We all know he'll never be a star PG, but statistically he ranks 6th among the top PGs in the East:

    And we have to take into account that: a) because of our small lineup Ray had to share the ball with Kidd/Prigs; b) we ran our offense partially through our two guards in Shump/Smith and c) our offense isn't PG oriented (give it to Melo). IMO considering all of the above being the 6th best PG in the East is pretty decent.

  8. #68
    Veteran Wargames's Avatar
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    I think the major point of contention on if the knicks should get a PG or not in the first round is based on if a person think's Felton is a decent/good PG. I tend to think he is considering that he didn't play heavy minutes and beyond dishing the ball he often had to play the teams 2nd or 3rd leading scorer during most the season.

    I understand that he didn't play well in the second round but a lot of that was based on the knicks whole offense reliance on the 3 being exposed by the best 3 pt defense in the league. The knicks didn't have traditional half court offenses scheme to fall back on and it cost us that series.

    I respect your opinion on why the knicks should get a PG but I feel they have worse needs to fix with a first rounder. On top of the fact that I can't see the knicks replacing Felton with an unproven rookie just one year removed from a season where the knicks didn't have a reliable PG on the whole roster. Getting a rookie PG would be an insurance move for at least 2 seasons unless he showed a true mastery for the game.

    if however the knicks did want to get a PG and considering they won't be able to move up to get a high level PG like a Shroeder or a Larkin (who refuses to even practice for a team picking in the mid 20's) would likely be gone? I think they should go after PG such as Nate Wolters. A 6'5 pass first PG who is a senior and would be available in the second round.



    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] even though they say he is a bad defender this kid kept trey burke to only 6 points when their teams met

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    and if the knicks buy an early second round draft pick they can get him. Almost all the draft boards out there have all the really good PG's taken before 24 so the knicks should just grab one later.

  9. #69
    Veteran Wargames's Avatar
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    Also Draft Express has us taking Tony Mitchell a tweener forward. Ton's of upside and arguably underperfoming due to bad college coaching (like shump had in Atlanta that allowed him to drop to 16). Most teams will pass on him due to not having a strong enough coach to get his head right. Woodson for all his flaws can usually get the best out of those type of guys.



    The only reason I support tweener forwards is Melo at the 4 should be the plan going forward. The only time Melo should look to play the 3 exclusively is against more traditional forwards (a Zach Randolph, David West, or an Ibaka) in those moments having somebody who can guard 3/4 would be a lifesaver because it wouldn't require a real change in personel to make up for a negative mixmatch.

    The Same goes for the ways it would allow the rest of the team to better play their natural roles. If the knicks get a guy who if the knicks keep Copeland having a 3/4 defender means you can have Cope play back up to Melo and then have the other player move up to the 4 or 3 depending on who is the harder defensive assignment. On top of that it would allow Shump to move back to the 1/2 defensively where he has excelled and will be needed with the return of players such as Rondo and Rose.

  10. #70
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    Wolters is an extremely interesting prospect.

    Originally Posted by Wargames
    I think the major point of contention on if the knicks should get a PG or not in the first round is based on if a person think's Felton is a decent/good PG. I tend to think he is considering that he didn't play heavy minutes and beyond dishing the ball he often had to play the teams 2nd or 3rd leading scorer during most the season.

    I understand that he didn't play well in the second round but a lot of that was based on the knicks whole offense reliance on the 3 being exposed by the best 3 pt defense in the league. The knicks didn't have traditional half court offenses scheme to fall back on and it cost us that series.

    I respect your opinion on why the knicks should get a PG but I feel they have worse needs to fix with a first rounder. On top of the fact that I can't see the knicks replacing Felton with an unproven rookie just one year removed from a season where the knicks didn't have a reliable PG on the whole roster. Getting a rookie PG would be an insurance move for at least 2 seasons unless he showed a true mastery for the game.

    if however the knicks did want to get a PG and considering they won't be able to move up to get a high level PG like a Shroeder or a Larkin (who refuses to even practice for a team picking in the mid 20's) would likely be gone? I think they should go after PG such as Nate Wolters. A 6'5 pass first PG who is a senior and would be available in the second round.



    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] even though they say he is a bad defender this kid kept trey burke to only 6 points when their teams met

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    and if the knicks buy an early second round draft pick they can get him. Almost all the draft boards out there have all the really good PG's taken before 24 so the knicks should just grab one later.

  11. #71
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    Wolters can rebound and pass...pretty big assets for a PG.

  12. #72
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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Wolters can rebound and pass...pretty big assets for a PG.
    Hoop Analyst break down of Nate Wolters as a PG from a smaller college in comparison to other PG's from small colleges.

    Nate Wolters, South Dakota State: Wolters is the best passer in this group and is really more of a PG than a combo. I just thought he was better evaluated here, because he’s probably a better prospect than the rest of the lesser PGs and he’s definitely one of the top small college players out there. As a PG prospect he hits all the necessary benchmarks. That’s a good thing, but I prefer that a small college prospect show a little more dominance than he has. I like small college players who have at least one eye-popping number in his statistical profile, like a 30+ P40, 9+ A40, 3+ S40 or 10+ RSB40. Wolters has been more of a player who meets all the minimum requirements for successful NBA PGs. While that sounds more boring than “a dominator”, it does make him a decent prospect to become an NBA PG. The only small college player I can find who didn’t make the NBA after topping .500 2PP, 24.0 P40, 6.0 A40 and 7.0 RSB40 is David Holston, a 5’7” player from Chicago State a few years ago. But there have only been a couple of others in this group, Speedy Claxton and Stephen Curry, so we’re dealing with a very small sample size here. Both players were much more dominant on this level than Wolters.

    Wolters as a prospect is somewhere in that grey area. I can’t dismiss him because of any specific statistical red flag. He has NBA size at 6’4” and his team had a lot of success with him as the lead Jackrabbit, making the tournament his last two seasons. Looking at all the stats and information, one would have to conclude that Wolters is a better prospect than Lillard was at this time last year. While that might make him the most likely answer to the “Who is the Damian Lillard of 2013?” question, it doesn’t mean he’ll follow Lillard’s path and dramatically improve in his rookie year. He still lacks a dominant skill, like Curry’s scoring and steals or Hill’s efficiency. We’ll need another decade to determine if he has Fisher’s outlier intangibles. This makes Wolters a player to start thinking about somewhere around mid-late first round.
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    all this and he will still go in the second round due to him playing in a weak conference and not doing any of the physicals that required the use of his leg due to a hip flexor at the NBA Combine...

    As for why the knicks should take Mitchell at PF he was also considered a lottery pick last year in a stronger overall class but then as I said his coach changed and his game/team fell apart. Last year he would have been taken in the top 10 players.

    42. Tony Mitchell, PF North Texas: He has declared, so we’ll see what happens. The good includes great defensive numbers and a stellar all-around season in 2012. The bad is he fell apart this year when the spotlight was on.

    33. Tony Mitchell, PF North Texas: I’m not sure what happened to the player he was last year. I don’t know if he got lazy or if the mighty Sun Belt conference figured him out. But the player who looked like a lottery pick last year is gone. In his place is a marginal prospect worth a look once round 2 starts based on his defensive skills and his great freshman year. Mitchell is a reminder of what should be called a Clifford Rozier rule with prospects. That a transfer is not a good thing for a prospect to have on his resume no matter how good the stats look.

    Tony Mitchell, North Texas: Mitchell is in danger of becoming one of those guys who is over-rated because everyone talked about how under-rated he was for so long. Mitchell is recovering from a slow start and is getting back to the form that had him #2 in my 2012 rankings. He seems to be over the shooting struggles he had in November. Through that he’s remained solid on the boards and defensively. While he takes too many 3-pointers, the fact that he can hit well over 30% of them adds to his value.
    Last edited by Wargames; Jun 03, 2013 at 22:07.

  13. #73
    Member BananaSauce's Avatar
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    very interesting prospect. but, that defense though. yuk. I can see myself yelling at my tv "wtf wolter, guard your ****ing man!"

  14. #74
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    I'm at the point where bad defense is a deal breaker for me. I have enough to stress about with Stat and Novak, we need a rim protector/rebounder in a bad way

  15. #75
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    not a draft but might aswell put him in this draft class.
    Last edited by BananaSauce; Jun 03, 2013 at 23:29.

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