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Thread: Here's where we f*cked up

  1. #1
    TYPE-A Red's Avatar
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    Default Here's where we f*cked up

    Before 2012-2013

    The FO f*cked up by not taking heed to the medical information provided by the Suns staff regarding Amare.

    Then they f*cked up by not amnestying Amare in favor of Billups which was done to make room for Chandler. In all fairness and retrospect the FO couldn't have known with 100% certainty what was to come, although the medical reports were there. And the fact that the Suns refused to offer a max deal to Amare along with us having to take on an uninsurable contract were both warning signs.

    An additional f*ck up was the plan and vision of us signing old players to extended (beyond a year) deals thinking they would provide veteran savvy. Again the FO was cash strapped with limited options, and the thought that the vets could provide some intangibles is not far fetched. Problem here is that we relied on them too much and they all broke down humpty dumpty style.

    During 2012-2013

    Coach f*cked up by using D'Antoni's style that does not work; this lead to the same outcome that plagues D'Antoni, that being mis-evaluation and false-positives. In fairness coach's initial plan as he said was to, "design a system that uses our two offensive stars" STAT & Melo. His decision to shift Melo to the 4 came about due to injury. The problem here is that this hurt us more than helped.

    The philosophy was this: Create a mismatch with Melo both in speed and shot selection because opposing Power Forwards were too slow to guard him on the perimeter thus he blew past them to the cup -or- he could pull up for the jumper therefore pulling the Power Forward away from the hoop to guard him. This would open up the interior for other players. This is exactly what D'Antoni thinks. But coached f*cked up.

    First there was no need to create a mismatch because at the Small Forward, Melo already has a mismatch with 90% of the league. This mismatch with Melo at his natural position offers one thing the other doesn't which is the ability to score from the post (instead of blowing by an opponent). And scoring from the post is paramount when the teams you face at a minimum of 4 games are amongst the top 50% in the league and even more familiar with you in the first 3 rounds, provided you win.

    Second, when you think about what a coach could do to stop Melo, it usually involves either a double-team which is what any team could/would do versus an offensive threat, and in Melos' case throw size his way which is to slow him down and wear him out. When coach decided to stick with Melo at the 4 he did the opposing team a favor by allowing their bigger PF to match-up with Melo nullifying his normal size advantage in favor of offense. This also is counter-intuitive because it creates another mismatch where coach would play a smaller shooting guard on the opposing small forward, further reducing our rebounding capabilities. Size matters, ask your girl.

    Melo should not be the primary rebounder as this is the primary job of the two bigs. When you play Melo at the 4, and spread your offense around the perimeter you reduce your rebounding power thus reducing the put back capabilities as part of the offense, known as 2nd chance shots. Coach's (and D'Antoni's) offense and approach became limited moreso during the playoffs because of better defenses, familiarity, and pressure, thus reducing the effectiveness of this decision. And this provided further discrepancies in two already weak areas: Rebounding (defense) and Low-post offense.

    Coach f*cked up by not realizing this weaknesses in rebounding and low-post offense due to the D'Antoni effect. This is a classic D'Antoni mistake. The low post designed game is nonexistent in favor of two other priorities: ball-movement and the pick & roll. If a player tries to establish his position and shot on the low block, he's detracting from ball movement. The mistake here according to the SSOL philosophy is that "ball movement will find the open man and get a good shot". This equates to the "open" shot being preferred over the high percentage shot. In fact in this model the open shot is the high percentage shot. But that's where you f*cked up. Know the difference.

    The other classic D'Antoni- (and any coach who chooses to see the fundamental aspect of basketball through this distorted lens) mistake, is the lack of good positioning for boxing-out and rebounding resulting from the lack of low post appreciation. In the D'Antoni model the P&R needs not be rebounded and the lower percentage 3's (that we took at record rates) compensate for neglecting to take higher percentage 2's, because of the extra point. Note that the triangle offense is built to feature two low post players on the block. But with D'Antoni and Woodson their approach neglects to factor in a) positioning for rebounding b) put backs c) drawing fouls d) moral and e) when the shots don't drop at a specific rate. Obviously if any team makes any shot then anything works. But for the playoffs the mitigating factors and dynamics change that reduce the likelihood of the same regular season %'s being directly carried over.

    Unfortunately (for us) the evidence of why the fundamental approach of strength in rebounding and low-block play are on full display every April thru June. Everyone forgets this process and result though for some reason, which I believe is the "chicks dig the long-ball" regular season fascination that lacks pressure in decisions and losing that the playoffs offer. This makes good teams practice this seemingly boring sure brand of baskeball all season in preparation for the playoffs. Yes stars usually prevail, and yes most good teams have them. But the not so obvious is the gameplan approach and philosophy.

    Finally there is the defense; coach f*cked up by compromising his priorities in defense and selling us some bullsh*t. He began by starting Ronnie Brewer due to injury. Coach's plan was to play a combination of Brewer and JR to provide balance at the 2 guard position. Brewer was not an offensive player and was not expected to be and JR was expected to be a 6th man. Coach then green lighted the Brewer trade for peanuts after Brewer got cold because he was becoming enamored with the team chucking (and making) three's as well as Melo's supposed mismatch at PF. Then there was the emergence of Rasheed Wallace.

    Coach f*cked up by first not playing Wallace which was a move he was spurred on by the fans who began chanting Wallace's name during a game. This is exactly what happened with D'Antoni with Jeremy Lin. But, just as I mentioned above by seeing things through the incorrect lens; coach saw the potential in Wallace not because of his low post presence and defense but because of his three point prowess. The evidence is the whimsical nature in which Wallace and the team chucked away.

    And finally just like D'Antoni coach fell victim to the three point happy, live and die by the three approach. He f*cked up by believing this was the best way to win and didn't even see the obvious flaws that this approach has after considering the entire picture. No rebounding, no low-post offense, no valid defense equals no chip no way no how.

    Before I end, please also consider the constant switching on defense; this too is a D'Antoni trade-mark. If you start with man 2 man (before adding the wrinkles) and you purposely and constantly play a player out-of-position, you f*cked up. And I didn't see anything that resembled a good zone defense with consistency.

    So now we have a mistake in Chandler who can't be relied upon on the block or to rebound and put the rock up because he's poor fundamentally on offense and he has baby sized butter-finger hands. A star being played out of position. Another trying to recover. And a coach who doesn't know what to do. He was still shuffling his line-up in game 90.
    Last edited by Red; May 29, 2013 at 08:25.

  2. #2
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    Thumbs down Before Melo ran the show it was Dantoni & Walsh, Isiah & Marbury, Laydum

    We F*cked-up big-time at the end of the 2007-8 season when we hired Indiana Pacers washed-up DUMMY Donnie Walsh 2010 Plan, and then a month later we really F*cked-up by hiring a clueless celebrity-coach Mike Dantoni.
    When all we had to do was just FIRE LooneyTune GM/Coach Isiah Thomas.
    Without Isiah Thomas in the Knicks organization, our 2007-8 and our 2008-9 roster were a 2nd round playoff team ..
    The top-4 east rosters in 2007 to 2009 were:
    Boston
    Cleveland
    Orlando
    and the Knicks

    After two worthless Knicks seasons (2008-9 & 2009-10) of "Dum Walsh & DNP Dantoni" running the show there was not one 2010 free agent star (or star role-player) interested in becoming a Knicks without being paid double their worth.

    Please .. could someone mention one 2010 Star FA that was willing to sign with the Knicks beside Amare?
    Do anyone have a clue of the reaction Donnie Walsh would receive if Amare or any of the star FA did not sign with the Knicks two year 2010 Plan?

    Amare came to New York for the $100M 5 yr contract .. The Phoenix Suns did not want to get rid of Amare's Knees, the reason Phoenix went public with Amare's medical.
    Melo came to New York because Amare made the young Knicks into a .500 winning team, plus PG-Billups exposed Melo's selfishness to all Nuggets teammates. The Denver Nuggets thought putting Billups in the Melo-Trade would make Melo change his mind about leaving Denver.

    On offense Amare & Melo are super-stars .. on defense Amare & Melo are not worth $50 G's lol
    To have both Amare & Melo on the defensive-end of the court is a big-joke in MSG (defenseless p*ssy).
    All our opposition rookies get huge confidence to score inside on us when Amare & Melo are in the same lineup.
    Has Amare & Melo ever worked-out in the offseason together as franchise teammates?
    F*ck all the publicity on Amare & Hakeem workout, it's time for Amare & Melo to spend a few weeks in the gym together this offseason to improve their poor effortless defense.
    If the two so-call super-stars dont spend anytime together at the gym in the offseason, we will remain a first-round embarrassment in the league. The Pacers showed us we do not belong in the 2nd round.

    Knicks fans that never paid attention to Amare & Melo on their previous teams vs the Isiah/Walsh Knicks need to know Knicks players "David Lee & Zach Randolph" had great stats vs the Amare Suns, and "Ariza, Chandler, and Gallo" had great stats vs the Melo Nuggets.
    Last edited by Kiyaman; May 29, 2013 at 05:54.

  3. #3
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    RED .... no disrespect to your post, but Woodson's crazy coaching method had a lot to do with Melo's demand to be at the PF spot for 37 minutes per game, plus Melo's demand for his 8 year side-kick JR.Smith to be at the SF spot for 34 minutes per game.
    What was the total of rebounds, blocks, and fouls we got per game from our two fowards?
    12 rbd, 0 blk, 5 fouls .... on offense both our fowards played point-fowards averaging 2.6 assist each per game.

    Woody use Wallace & Kurt Thomas as backup centers to rest a 33 minute per game Tyson Chandler.
    The 3 centers did not get much help in the paint from PF-Melo in the rebound department, boxing-out, put-backs, or defending opponents from scoring inside.
    How long did u think all 3 bigmen were going to put up with this small-ball system?
    Since the trading-deadline when we sign PF-Kenyon Martin, I did not see Martin in the same lineup with Tyson, untill the Pacers playoff. What does that say about Woody and small-ball lineups ?
    I doubt K-Mart will resign.

    I did not see Amare get injured in any preseason games, or any regular season games.
    I did see Amare get hot a lot of time when taking out for short periods of playingtime.
    I did see Amare & Melo in the same lineup a few times this season, and still oil & water dont mix.
    So that explains Amare missing 3/4 of the season, not the Knicks medical-staff injuries.

    Mcdyess asked for a buyout from Denver when Detroit traded Mcdyess & Billups to Denver in 2008.
    I thought Camby & Kurt were going to ask for a buyout too, but they rather take Dolan for a season salary.
    I doubt Kidd & Camby will be healthy to play next season under their contract.

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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    RED ....
    I doubt Kidd & Camby will be healthy to play next season under their contract.
    I don't think there is anything wrong with kidd... other then old age setting in.. has camby ever been healthy for a season since his rookie year in 1959???

  5. #5
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    I think things have gone pear shaped ever since when Dolan junior got handed the Knicks as a present. He is not knowledgable enough to be a hands on owner and he gets into the mix way too often.
    Kiya, I have to disagree with what you said about Walsh. Ever since Melo came to New York I have been saying that we are not a well-crafted team and the reason for this is that Dolan obviously messes up strategies by hiring players as if this were a video game.

    Think about D'Antoni whatever you want, dislike the system, but there was one. I cannot see anything remotely reminding me of a system with Woodson. Now I am not saying that we should re-hire him, obviously he wasn't a good fit, but we should get somebody who appreciates strategic passing and team play.

    The only thing we can do is hoping that Dolan will reach some form of understanding that things will improve as soon as he decides not to get into the mix and hope for a coach with a system and appreciation for young, unselfish players with a high basketball IQ.

    So basically the total opposite what we have got now.
    Last edited by pat; May 29, 2013 at 09:27.

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    Great thread Red. It's long but well worth reading, I hope others in KOL take the time.

    Amare was a bone head signing, typical of the Knicks over the last 40 years. How do you sign a guy with a history of injury problems to a 100M 5 year max deal all guaranteed and no team option in the 4th year. I didn't think he was worth the max contract because of the knee surgeries and because even in his best years he was never a great defender or rebounder. He's the mirror image of Chandler great on offense but mediocre on defense and probably deserved a contract more in Tyson's range rather than the max deal he got.

    And how do you sign 40 year olds to 3 year deals with no option years. I thought it was a mistake when Dallas signed Kidd for 3 years at the advanced age of 36, I was wrong about that but I said at 40 his game could disappear overnight ala Mike Bibby and it looks like Father Time has caught up with JKidd.

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    Amare was a desperate signing, it seems like propaganda and the media feeding us that we needed to sign Amare to get Melo here....since Amare was an all star caliber player.

    Could we have Melo without Amare? Who knows.

    This is the situation we're in now, so it's up to the Knicks to build the best out of it they can.

    We're still a top 3-4 team in the East. We can improve depending on Shumpert's health, Chandler's health and Melo's health. That's really our big 3 right now.

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    Great analysis. I think living by the 3 offense is very flawed..not only are your points depended on your 3's, but most of your players are outside the perimeter, which leaves really little offensive rebounding.

    We need to completely re-build the Knicks. Everyone besides Melo, Chandler, and Shump should be cleaned out. Chandler needs to get his defense and rebounding back to form. Melo needs to take less contested shots and pass more. Shump needs to improve his shooting and passing. Would love a PF like Ibaka on this team. We need defense, shot blocking, and occasional finisher / shooter from the PF position. For PG, we need someone with good penetration game. Someone like Evans or Rose would be a perfect fit on this team.

    Championship caliber
    Rose
    Melo
    Shump
    Chandler
    Ibaka

    Too bad it's kinda unrealistic to get those 2 guys though

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