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Thread: Building through the draft

  1. #1
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    Default Building through the draft

    So I'm sitting doing research and pondering and seeing how everyone is complaining about our draft picks. But since our championship year 40 years ago. We've only drafted 3 of our stars, willis reed, walt and pat. Every other star was acquired. Bernard, steph, Houston, spree, stat, melo, z bo, Steve Francis.So forth. Yeah we have players we drafted that we moved that became all stars but the trend for the knicks our a lot of new York teams is to acquire players with the city's allure as a bonus. Stop putting emphasis on draft picks because we don't even have a 3 year patience for melo. Don't have patience for 5 months to see if the bargs trade is a good one. Didn't have patience to let shump recover from injury and wanted him shipped off for Dudley. Yeah we showed patience to pat and van gundy, didn't really need to show patience to Houston and spree because they came in winning. But that was the B.I. era(before Isaiah) our expectations and patience were all collectively screwed up because of it. That shows in our polar opposite of our opinions on everything we talk about but especially melo. How some people see him as a cancer and some see him as a catalyst is a direct result of our patience levels. Point is some are harping on these draft picks that we give up when we won't give players the time to develop. When we're more likely to acquire a star then draft one anyway.
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    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    What if the impatience comes from the team seemingly making way more foolish moves than good ones? Nothing is guaranteed, but the Knicks seem determined to make shortsighted, poorly planned, moves that puts us in the category of "not good enough to win a ring, and not bad enough to have impactful draft pics."

    This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Melo. The Knicks were the only team to fully guarantee STAT a 5-year deal that was uninsurable. The Knicks then used their brand new amnesty provision to waive a soon expiring contract to get a center who doesn't have much of an offensive game, and would get in the way of your $100M man who does most of his damage with the floor spread in the PnR. Oh by the way...that $100M contract was given to a guy who's knees were estimated to hold up for 3, MAYBE 4 seasons...hence why 1) no one else would guarantee a 5 year deal, and 2) no insurance company would take on his contract.

    For every good move the organization makes, there's a handful that you can objectively question.

    Getting a top-5 talent in Melo made sense, but it's been nothing but lateral movement since then. Even the coaching change. To go from MDA, to a coach that lost his last head-gig because his offense was too predictable, and his defense fed right into an opponent creating mismatches and exploiting them -- is as shortsighted as it gets. Is Woody a breath of fresh air after the disaster that was MDA? Absolutely. Has Woody shown to be a championship-level coach? Yea, as an assistant under Larry Brown. Since then it's been decent, then good, then great regular seasons and no Conference Finals.

    So what exactly is there to be patient with? Patience, like respect, is earned. Give me something tangible that convinces me to wait and see what comes of it. Knicks' FO just stumbles, and trips over themselves, and gives us teams that are neither lottery, nor Finals bound. That means a bunch of 1st and 2nd round exits.
    Last edited by nuckles2k2; Jul 04, 2013 at 11:53.

  3. #3
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    it'd be a nice idea but we're too busy trading them for Bargnani

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    Originally Posted by nuckles2k2
    What if the impatience comes from the team seemingly making way more foolish moves than good ones? Nothing is guaranteed, but the Knicks seem determined to make shortsighted, poorly planned, moves that puts us in the category of "not good enough to win a ring, and not bad enough to have impactful draft pics."

    This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Melo. The Knicks were the only team to fully guarantee STAT a 5-year deal that was uninsurable. The Knicks then used their brand new amnesty provision to waive a soon expiring contract to get a center who doesn't have much of an offensive game, and would get in the way of your $100M man who does most of his damage with the floor spread in the PnR. Oh by the way...that $100M contract was given to a guy who's knees were estimated to hold up for 3, MAYBE 4 seasons...hence why 1) no one else would guarantee a 5 year deal, and 2) no insurance company would take on his contract.

    For every good move the organization makes, there's a handful that you can objectively question.

    Getting a top-5 talent in Melo made sense, but it's been nothing but lateral movement since then. Even the coaching change. To go from MDA, to a coach that lost his last head-gig because his offense was too predictable, and his defense fed right into an opponent creating mismatches and exploiting them -- is as shortsighted as it gets. Is Woody a breath of fresh air after the disaster that was MDA? Absolutely. Has Woody shown to be a championship-level coach? Yea, as an assistant under Larry Brown. Since then it's been decent, then good, then great regular seasons and no Conference Finals.

    So what exactly is there to be patient with? Patience, like respect, is earned. Give me something tangible that convinces me to wait and see what comes of it. Knicks' FO just stumbles, and trips over themselves, and gives us teams that are neither lottery, nor Finals bound. That means a bunch of 1st and 2nd round exits.
    Good points. I'm frustrated too.

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    12th man
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    Knicks never build threw the draft and suffered greatly because of it. We got lucky with the Ewing pick, but after that it's been a disaster. We settle for being a treadmill team for about 3 decades.

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    Let me put it this way, between 2003 and 2010 we had so many high picks we could easily build a contender... the problem is or we traded those picks in some dumb deals or we picked D-League caliber players.

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    We have not done well with picks for decades. We gave up many pick positions for the likes of Eddie Curry. And we have made many mistakes. For example, Renaldo Balkman when Rondo was available. Jordan Hill when several point guards were available, e.g. Jrue Holiday and Brandon Jennings. I am not thrilled with Hardaway, Jr. He simply does not have enough upside, though he could well prove solid. Our better picks, Gallo, Lee and N8, were traded or otherwise lost. Our only draft pick, other than Hardaway, Jr., on the current team is Shumpert and he is certainly a keeper. Our only player of note produced by trades of picks or others is Melo. I do not count Bargnani. Toronto was anxious to get rid of him and we probably overpaid. In other words, we have very little to show for decades of decent trade positions. We have no pick next year, and no pick in 2016. We have even given up some second rounders. We should have tons of cap space two years from now. It will be interesting to see whether we continue to buy instead of building.

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    Originally Posted by Oldtimer
    We have not done well with picks for decades. We gave up many pick positions for the likes of Eddie Curry. And we have made many mistakes. For example, Renaldo Balkman when Rondo was available. Jordan Hill when several point guards were available, e.g. Jrue Holiday and Brandon Jennings. I am not thrilled with Hardaway, Jr. He simply does not have enough upside, though he could well prove solid. Our better picks, Gallo, Lee and N8, were traded or otherwise lost. Our only draft pick, other than Hardaway, Jr., on the current team is Shumpert and he is certainly a keeper. Our only player of note produced by trades of picks or others is Melo. I do not count Bargnani. Toronto was anxious to get rid of him and we probably overpaid. In other words, we have very little to show for decades of decent trade positions. We have no pick next year, and no pick in 2016. We have even given up some second rounders. We should have tons of cap space two years from now. It will be interesting to see whether we continue to buy instead of building.
    I'm telling y'all if we keep barg its gonna work out... they wanted rid of vince too... outside of the Isaiah era we've been ok. Some years better then others. Let me ask a question. Since grunnys arrival how many moves were bad ones and how many worked out in our favor? How many moves were obvious and how many moves were weird at first and turned out to work out... this bargnani move will be a good. He's gonna be vital, a difference maker. No one wants Toronto

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    Superstar nuckles2k2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksince 93
    I'm telling y'all if we keep barg its gonna work out... they wanted rid of vince too... outside of the Isaiah era we've been ok. Some years better then others. Let me ask a question. Since grunnys arrival how many moves were bad ones and how many worked out in our favor? How many moves were obvious and how many moves were weird at first and turned out to work out... this bargnani move will be a good. He's gonna be vital, a difference maker. No one wants Toronto

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    Amnestying Chauncey to clear room for Tyson so far has been 50/50 at best. Amar'e is eating up cap space, and it's only getting worse. He might be on a minutes restriction @ $21M. While Tyson isn't quite that force down low against bigs like Noah, Hibbert, and Brooke (yea, I put the "e" on there) not to mention Pekovic, Asik, or Cousins -- when he's right. Marc Gasol won't even be mentioned in this..

    If we had an amnesty clause, we could rid ourselves of STAT right now, and go get a big that compliments Melo the way Nene did in Denver. That's Pekovic (restrivted FA), Milsap, or Jefferson (kinda). But instead, we're left with Tyson and wondering if he'll hold up against the "big boys" in the paint.

    Raymond Felton as our starting PG. He's a good player, constantly whining like a bitch, and had the Knicks right where he wanted them. He was really only effective when Kidd was on the court with him (early in the season) and Prigs late in the season...13 game winning streak came directly after Kurt Thomas came outta the lineup (and damn near sacrificed himself) for Prigs, in Utah. Felton was out there and doing NOTHING. Prigs comes into the lineup and suddenly the ball moves 1000% better. I don't recall effective POINT men needing their hands held...but ok.

    But the Prigs and Cope discoveries were very, very, very, good. So I guess this offseason will tip the scales one way or another.

    I don't hate the Bargs trade, but I have a feeling Tyson is next. I don't mind trading Tyson, but I seriously want a 2-way 5 back in that deal. There's only like 4 of those in the league..so we'll see..

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