Hence coming to a gun fight with a knife...
If all you have is low financial compensation for their services, then you have to tell them they have a shot to compete for the job in any capacity. I mean seriously can anyone say per 36-48min that there is a clear edge to any of the 3 Felton/Beno/Pablo?
I don't care what we told Felton and Pablo, if what we told them plays a factor in how we've pursued the myriad of point guards this summer....it's absurd and idiotic on every level.
Considering we gave up assets to acquire one, and gave half the TPMLE to the other costing us our own free agent, only for us to look like a cat in heat trying to acquire another.
The Elephant in the room says........
"We're not completely comfortable with our point guard situation".
If anything this is more indicative of what this organization thinks of Felton, the point guard who's supposed to be so much better than Lin.
If you haven't discerned in any of my posts
I HATE THE WAY WE CONDUCT BUSINESS, FROM TOP TO BOTTOM
We might have a shot for a headcase such as West who's looking to hang on in this league, otherwise he'll go fill an App out at Home Depot for employment..... advising you on what back splashes to pick out for your kitchen remodel. Meanwhile other point guards have signed for relatively cheap deals...
D.J. Augustin/Aaron Brooks/Nate Robinson/Darren Collison/Devin Harris/Toney Douglas/Shaun Livingston/Derek Fisher/Will Bynum/Chauncey Billups
About half this list will be competing for the 2nd, 3rd.... point guard spot...COME HOME AGAIN?
I just debunked the jibberish you posted. Own up for what this is...New York is not the Lure it's been talked up to be, by the fan base for nearly a decade. Which makes it MYTHICAL stuff of LEGEND FOLKLORE
Last edited by Broadway; Aug 01, 2013 at 00:23.
Ok there is so much wrong I am not totally sure where to begin
OK so lets start from the begining of your post and work down
Again I am not suggesting that we are telling these guys they are going to be 3rd string the fact of the matter is that it is obvious they will be. I suspect we are pitching to them that there will be playing time yet because they are not stupid they realize that something has to give
Ok...now you believe that Felton/Pablo/Beno are all equally good players (this too exposes your true identity by the way) and that they all have just as much right to minutes....Opinions aside lets look at the facts, Felton started every game he was available to play, Woody has gone on record as saying the slump we went on when Felton was hurt was directly related. It is safe to say Felton is our starting PG just based on coaches preference alone! Woody liked Pablo so much that he started him out of position (yet never started over Felton further validating that it is safe to assume he's our starting PG) We spent part of our precious Mini MLE to retain Pablo which spelled the end for Copeland as you mentioned so it is safe to say he is going to be in the rotation. So no way there is a chance that the 3rd PG we sign is here to try to earn minutes over Raymond in Pablo even if you see the 3 as equal, which is highly debatable.
Now your theory on us trying to secure a 3rd means we are not content with our PG situation...Wrong again! We are 3-4 deep at every position except PG and Center. We have been pursuing both Centers and PG's all summer! This is not a lack of confidence in Pablo and Ray's ability but an insurance policy!
D.J. Augustin/Aaron Brooks/Nate Robinson/Darren Collison/Devin Harris/Toney Douglas/Shaun Livingston/Derek Fisher/Will Bynum/Chauncey Billup are your list of players you feel we should have gotten
Ok so lets look at the facts here.
Nate, Billups, Will Bynum, Aaron Brooks all signed for more than Mini MLE. Devin Harris signed for way more, got hurt so Dallas rescinded the deal and then gave him minimum, but he was slated for Dallas and did not give anyone a chance even after they rescinded
Darren Collison was a shocker in how LAC got him for so cheap...yet he took the money because he knows without a shadow of a doubt that he is there backup to Paul
Toney Douglas and Derrick Fisher are simply not options! Fisher is done! Douglas is not even a combo guard he is an undersized SG who by default gets PG duty
"Mythical Folklore" could you be more dramatic bro! Listen its not just NY, its all big Market teams that have Lure, your basis for this not being true because players like Toney Douglas and Derrick Fisher did not sign here is comical and a bit delirious.
i like how this thread discussion encompasses the entire NYK point guard situation,
yet everyone's forgotten about the clown Bobby Blown, eating wonton in Dongguan.
Hey it's his...
Prerogative...He Can Do What He Wants To Do...
Every Little Step We Took...
Bobby Would Be Cruel....
Ya Ya Ya Know It....Now We're On Our Own
We Passed On Delonte, Probably Too Much.... Humpin Around
It's Been Rough, Ivan Johnson Is Rougher...Thug Luvin
Tour Murray May Be What We End Up With Such a... Tenderoni
Or Hadadi/Pargo/Udrih We May Have To....Rock Witcha....Boys
No Matter Who We Decide Every Homer Will Ultimately Say It's....Good Enough
Of course Brown said peace out because fans like NewYorkNewYork are too busy apologizing while we keep P.M. Dawning during free agency...
you know "Set Adrift"...no direction or purpose...
We're throwing ish at free agents hoping it sticks because we think our ish don't stink....sad to say but it does and no one wants poo or likes the smell of poo on them.
Remember when Dave Chappelle would do his Rick James skits....and he said "Eff Your Couch....I'm Rick James Bich?"....
Well Knicks have now been rejected again, again, again, and again with Free Agents telling us..."Eff Your Vet Min"...
really clever post until you started taking hoops!
So you believe if we had say 5 million to offer we'd still getting " rejected"...I'll give the answer your pride won't allow you to give yet knows what's right...Hell No
rejecting a vet min is not them dismissing New York! At the end of the day it's a business move and it would be dumb to take below market value and possibly be stuck at that pay scale for the remainder of your career
Knicks are now considering Jannero Pargo. Udrih's agent says 5 teams are interested in his client one of them being Memphis who wants to sign him to a 1 year deal but for more than the minimum.
if another team is offering Beano double what the vets minimum is, then I can understand him choosing another squad. but if it's close, you'd think he'd want to try NYC, MSG, and life in the big apple as an NBA star. the food, drink, women, other monetary opportunities, etc.
however, it's usually the agent's call, he's the one telling the player where to go and what's best for him, and since the agent is getting a percentage, he's always going to choose the higher salary, no matter how much it is, because most agents are money-hungry a$$holes.
You either need to start following this game called basketball and everything about it or stop following this game called basketball and everything about it. I'm not sure which one you should pick, that's how clueless you are....
First of all you probably blackedout the fact Beno Udrih was the backup point guard for I believe 2 Championship Spurs teams. Although his numbers suggested that's all he was, he landed a starting point guard position in Sacramento once he left the Spurs.
What do we see in comparison to Felton over the same stretch of seasons up to 2010?
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One could argue from an efficiency standpoint Beno was better. One could argue Duhon was better or as good as Felton when you consider Duhon did not shoot near as much as Felton, played with less talent, and dropped more dimes.
If you want to say that was back then, well the same could have been said of Felton prior to acquiring him... that he was done, finished, fat, and beyond being starting point guard material on a championship contending team... as we re-acquired him from Portland. He was trash there and had we stuck with Lin and not reacquired Felton, that would have been the exact sentiments from this fan base.
I wonder what Beno's numbers would have looked like, had he played at least 1 season in a D'AnToni offense?(which Woodson still runs much of)?
Back To The Lecture at Hand
If the point guards we are pursuing have no chance at PT when we're only offering to pay them peanuts..."Once A Freakin Gain"....dumb approach to doing business.
I'd wager to say not everything a team says when trying to acquire talent is always stood by..what do you think? Also once players are locked into contracts, what real pull do they have on a franchise, unless they are a Max Cat? None!
Matter of fact I recall last year when J.R. Smith was talking about his role of being a bench player sounded as if he was told he could be a starter but things changed once we shaped up the roster and he was asked to come off the bench. Pablo would have no pull if we brought in a 3rd point guard and he got outplayed or one of better caliber. Matter of fact Pablo had a hard time getting Woody to learn to love him last season.
On to the Grad Course....
At off-season's begin we had.....
2 2nd round draft picks
Swap option on the 2016 1st
$800-900K TPE from Ronnie..."Trash" Brewer
We most certainly could have maxmized our assets/resources better prior to where we are now and achieved more than Bagnani/Pablo/TJ. Especially as the talk builds of looking at 2015, the year to pursue free agents again and clear cap.
Pablo got slightly more than half of the TPMLE 3yrs $6mil(3rd yr TO)-------->($1.6-1.9mil/yr). Now let's look at what others signed for elsewhere.... contending to very much noncontending teams to large and small market teams.
Approximate first yr starting salaries
Robert Sacre to Lakers...for.....$790,000
Austin Daye to Raptors....for......$950,000
Alan Andersen to Brooklyn....for....$950,000
Byron Mullens to Clippers....for....$950,000
Wesley Johnson to Lakers....for....$950,000
D.J. Augustin to Raptors....for.....$1.025mil
Omri Casspi to Rockets...for....$1.025mil
Reggie Williams to Rockets....$1.025mil
D.J. White to Brooklyn....for....$1.025mil
Aaron Brook to Rockets....for.....$1.185mil
Anthony Murrow to Pelican...for....$1.185mil
Jordan Farmar to Lakers.....for....$1.185mil
Nick Young to Lakers....for $1.185mil
Ryan Hollins to Clippers....for....$1.185mil
Francisco Garcia to Rockets....for.....$1.265mil
Shaun Livingston to Brooklyn....for....$1.265mil
Andray Blatche to Brooklyn...for....$1.4mil
DeJuan Blair to Mavs....for....$1.4mil
Derrick Fisher to Thunder....for....$1.4mil
Earl Watson to Portland...for....$1.4mil
Jodie Meeks to Lakers....for....$1.55mil
John Lucas to Utah...for....$1.6mil
Ronnie Turiaf to Wolves...for...$1.6mil
Toney Douglas to Warriors....for.....$1.6mil
Jeff Pendergraph to Spurs....for.....$1.75mil
Jermaine O'Neal to Warriors....for....$1.9mil
Nate Robsinson to Denver...for....$1.9mil
Darren Collison to Clippers....for....$1.9mil
C.J. Watson to Pacers....for....$2.015mil
Eric Maynor to Wizads...for....$2.015mil
C.J. Miles to Cavs....for....$2.225mil
Chris Kaman to Lakers...for....$2.5mil
Tyler Hansbrough to Raptors....for....$2.5mil
Chauncy Billups to Pistons...for....$2.5mil
Will Bynum to Pistons....for.....$2.5mil
Demarre Carroll to Hawks....for.....$2.5mil
Josh Roberts to Bobcats....for....$2.625mil
Wayne Ellington to Mavs....for...$2.625mil
Greg Steisma to Pelicans....for.....$2.625mil
Mo Williams to Blazers....for....$2.75mil
Chris Copeland to Pacers....for....$2.9mil
Dorell Wright to Thunder....for....$2.9mil
Marco Belinelli to Spurs....for....$2.9mil
Mike Dunleavy to Bulls....for.....$2.9mil
Randy Foye to Denver....for....$2.9mil
Devin Harris to Mavs...for....$2.9mil then $1.3mil
Andre Kirilenko to Brooklyn....for.....$3.183mil
Gary Neal to Bucks....for....$3.5mil
Mareese Speights to Warriors...for....$3.75mil
Samuel Dalembert to Mavs....for.....$3.75mil
Elton Brand to Hawks.....for.....$4mil
Man I've never seen so much ETHER in my yrs of posting. 3rd Degree. I mean this, without a shadow of doubt... proves players signed with other teams for blue light special deals and mitigated roles. We basically signed no one with similar money/roles available. We should have never paid Pablo as much as we did. We should have given him a multi-yr deal based on what his VME slot was, not touching our TPMLE and if he threatens to go back to Euro then Cest La Vie Pablo.
You can start with an explanation of Brooklyn Nets and how they achieved what they did, since they have 5 players on this list at $3.183mil and under. For the record we can sign as many VME deals as allowed under the CBA per roster spaces which is based on number of yrs in the league.
This also shows how careless we were to make the moves we did so early. Did we not learn after the Steve Novak deal from last summer? Apparently not. The Bargs trade was always there for us to do and Masai knew this and was willing to wait until we obliged. David Lee(although Derozan was requested in return) and Caron Butler was the only thing worthwhile being offered for Bargs... Butler an expiring at that.
So what I said still stands...New York is not the DRAW or LURE it's been talked about. For crying out loud when we had money available and major roles up for grabs in 2010, all we walked away with was Amar'e and Felton or did you Black that Out too?
POOF SPLAT KAPOW BLAM CRUSH...BE GONE!
Last edited by Broadway; Aug 07, 2013 at 19:34.
Oh and please don't say...but, but, but, but we signed...
Pablo....$1.6mil(our own)....36yr old
Kenyon.....$1.4mil(our own)....36yr old
Artest.....$1.4mil(free agent).....34yr old
As has been mentioned as an excuse...."Grunwald had his hands tied financially" and couldn't sign many of the aforementioned on the lengthy list I posted, proves otherwise. Not to mention we signed a bunch of old farts(shrinking Melo's window even more waaahhhn waaaahhhhnn waaaahhhhhnn), who may not be as good as some of the other younger players on the lengthy list. Most of the players in the previous post signed with different teams than they were on last year. I'd say about 80-90% of them actually.
When the money was equal or minimally less, not in our favor playing in NYC hasn't proven to be an edge whatsoever.
Might have to put Deshawn Stevenson and Antawn Jamison next on this list...signing for peanuts soon.
Pablo should have been offered a multi-yr VME deal. The same starting salary Robert Sacre got from the Lakers this off-season($790K).... which is more than he(Pablo) was making last year($475K).... as he(Sacre) was a similar type of free agent for them, as Pablo was for us. Pablo would have received a raise by more than 30% of his last year's salary. If Pablo accepted, we still would have had our $3.183 TPMLE to offer free agents early on in the courting. If Pablo rejected, feeling disrespected....we would have still had our TPMLE to offer free agents early on in the courting. Funny how we offered Cope the QO and he said NO thanks.....but we still signed Pablo.
Welp the same principle should have applied to Pablo even more so....looking to pursue other free agents as we proved all summer we ain't that comfortable with the point guard position. I mean ask yourself this question....
Should Pablo be paid more than Artest and Martin?
ROTFLOL @ the way we do business
Last edited by Broadway; Aug 06, 2013 at 18:29.
Felton & Prig are decent (backup), but we need a PG that will bring-it as a finisher ....
The day Jason Kidd QUIT .. signing UFA Brandon Jennings were our first priority, and our 2nd option was Nate Robinson .. on July 1st.
Anything other is wishing for another D.League Lin Jeremy take-over
Brown penetrates, dishes nicely and can finish with both hands. Against Euroleague defenses he works nicely. He is not as effective against NBA big men down low. That when his other problem kicks in: he shoots the three from his shoulders with his elbows hugging his ribs, just a terrible shot. He can make it if he has the spacing, but you can see he will not pull up with someone close to him. That would not be very helpful with the Knicks offensive scheme.
Beno > Brown
What of that Toure Murry kid, he did quite well in summer league although he is not a great shooter.
Added Mo Williams to the list....$2.8mil/yr. A point guard we could have given our $3.183mil to had we combed the league correctly out the gate....His agent is Mark Bartlestein who I believe represented David Lee when he was here right before he was traded.