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Thread: Roy Hibbert will dominate Tyson this season

  1. #46
    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksince 93
    I'm sorry my proof is in observation of the game and I watch him game after game after game let people lay up on him, miss lobs that just 2 years ago would have easily got. Catch lobs and then miss the dunk attempt. He got horsed in the playoffs by hibbert who is bigger and kg who actually is smaller. Who had double digit rebounds in the first half of those playoff games

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    Well pardon me if I don't trust you're skills at basketball observation. Seems as if you only watched the playoffs and aren't taking into consideration the fact TC was injured.

    Here's a good article re Chandler's offensive impact..



    Tyson Chandler: Best Center, Best Minimalist


    By Ethan Sherwood Strauss, on December 20th, 2012


    “I’m a basketball minimalist.” Brett Koremenos rocked my psyche with that self identification. The term now haunts so many of my NBA thoughts.


    Brett offhandedly used his invented phrase over Gchat, in reference to the inexorably fluid spread pick-and-roll attack. It’s an approach that requires four three point shooters, one of whom waits for the pick from a non-shooting big man like Tyson Chandler. The offense conquers because it exists in just too much space for a defense to hug. It’s practically a cheat code.


    For the offense to be even feasible, the Knicks need Tyson Chandler to compensate for all those defensively-deficient shooters with defense and rebounding. He does that, but he’s also about as good an offensive player there is to do it on seven shots per game.


    Tyson Chandler can’t shoot well, or dribble well, and he’s a bit skinny. Though, I sometimes wonder whether he’d be worse for his team were he any more blessed in those categories. His lack of a jump shot has led to a cartoonish 70% field goal mark. His lack of a handle has led to one turnover per game. His lack of bulk means fewer shotclock ticks sacrificed to the altar of dribble-dribble-back-down post-ups. New York’s big man enters a game, and only expertly controls a manageable amount of reality.


    The reigning assumption is that the best center must be someone who does a lot, especially in the scoring department. Chandler might be changing that notion, if we would only bother to notice what he’s doing.


    Catch-all player performance statistics are inherently problematic, because the value of taking a shot will always be up for debate. I do like Win Shares on Basketball Reference because the metric rewards volume shooting less than some other stats do. This is not to say that those other metrics are worse–just that, WS provides a nice counter balance to the mainstream line of rewarding heavy involvement. By this measure, Tyson Chandler’s current Win Share average would qualify for better than any season in Hakeem Olajuwon’s past and all but one Shaq season. Lest you believe it’s a fluke, Chandler’s WS average last season was better than all but one Hakeem year.


    I perhaps should have slowplayed you into that factoid. The idea of a 29 year-old non All Star as the league’s best center is already too much for some folks to handle. When you factor in that Chandler was traded for Emeka Okafor in 2009, and gifted to the Mavericks in 2010 for Erick Dampier’s contract, the whole case sounds all the more ludicrous.


    But it doesn’t seem silly if you closely watch Tyson Chandler play, especially in his off-the-ball natural habitat. No center traverses more ground than Chandler, and perhaps no center owns more vertical space. The combination of his horizontal and vertical talent makes for a constant threat to the defense. He races out quickly to set a screen and dives back to the rim just as fast. Not only is he slick about setting sticky screens for driving guards, but Chandler’s also adept at spinning off the screen for an alley oop from said guard.


    His occasional butt-screens (there is probably a more technical term) make for an amusing, effective tactic. Tyson will put his back and rear into a defender, and bounce off them towards the rim, like a pro wrestler leveraging the ropes. Once he makes a catch off these rim runs, it’s usually over. He’s too large and moving with too much ever-engulfing speed. The rushing wave will make the hoop splash.


    The Minimalist also conveys a sense of moment with a mere one-hand redirecting of the basketball. Chandler has effectively closed out at least two games I’ve seen this season with a series of backtaps. Near the end of the fourth quarter, defenses tire in the same way an NFL D might start giving up chunks of rushing yardage. When this happens, Tyson is liable to make as little contact with the ball as possible while making as much impact on the game as possible. Then, teams in their final throes suffer the demoralizing death pang of watching Chandler tap out Knick misses again and again.


    That’s Tyson Chandler, so special a specialist as to make him more valuable than any big man generalist. So maximally minimal as to be great. Nowadays, the center position isn’t dead; It’s just found a way to be dominant without dominating.

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    Originally Posted by ronoranina
    Well pardon me if I don't trust you're skills at basketball observation. Seems as if you only watched the playoffs and aren't taking into consideration the fact TC was injured.

    Here's a good article re Chandler's offensive impact..



    Tyson Chandler: Best Center, Best Minimalist


    By Ethan Sherwood Strauss, on December 20th, 2012


    ďIím a basketball minimalist.Ē Brett Koremenos rocked my psyche with that self identification. The term now haunts so many of my NBA thoughts.


    Brett offhandedly used his invented phrase over Gchat, in reference to the inexorably fluid spread pick-and-roll attack. Itís an approach that requires four three point shooters, one of whom waits for the pick from a non-shooting big man like Tyson Chandler. The offense conquers because it exists in just too much space for a defense to hug. Itís practically a cheat code.


    For the offense to be even feasible, the Knicks need Tyson Chandler to compensate for all those defensively-deficient shooters with defense and rebounding. He does that, but heís also about as good an offensive player there is to do it on seven shots per game.


    Tyson Chandler canít shoot well, or dribble well, and heís a bit skinny. Though, I sometimes wonder whether heíd be worse for his team were he any more blessed in those categories. His lack of a jump shot has led to a cartoonish 70% field goal mark. His lack of a handle has led to one turnover per game. His lack of bulk means fewer shotclock ticks sacrificed to the altar of dribble-dribble-back-down post-ups. New Yorkís big man enters a game, and only expertly controls a manageable amount of reality.


    The reigning assumption is that the best center must be someone who does a lot, especially in the scoring department. Chandler might be changing that notion, if we would only bother to notice what heís doing.


    Catch-all player performance statistics are inherently problematic, because the value of taking a shot will always be up for debate. I do like Win Shares on Basketball Reference because the metric rewards volume shooting less than some other stats do. This is not to say that those other metrics are worseĖjust that, WS provides a nice counter balance to the mainstream line of rewarding heavy involvement. By this measure, Tyson Chandlerís current Win Share average would qualify for better than any season in Hakeem Olajuwonís past and all but one Shaq season. Lest you believe itís a fluke, Chandlerís WS average last season was better than all but one Hakeem year.


    I perhaps should have slowplayed you into that factoid. The idea of a 29 year-old non All Star as the leagueís best center is already too much for some folks to handle. When you factor in that Chandler was traded for Emeka Okafor in 2009, and gifted to the Mavericks in 2010 for Erick Dampierís contract, the whole case sounds all the more ludicrous.


    But it doesnít seem silly if you closely watch Tyson Chandler play, especially in his off-the-ball natural habitat. No center traverses more ground than Chandler, and perhaps no center owns more vertical space. The combination of his horizontal and vertical talent makes for a constant threat to the defense. He races out quickly to set a screen and dives back to the rim just as fast. Not only is he slick about setting sticky screens for driving guards, but Chandlerís also adept at spinning off the screen for an alley oop from said guard.


    His occasional butt-screens (there is probably a more technical term) make for an amusing, effective tactic. Tyson will put his back and rear into a defender, and bounce off them towards the rim, like a pro wrestler leveraging the ropes. Once he makes a catch off these rim runs, itís usually over. Heís too large and moving with too much ever-engulfing speed. The rushing wave will make the hoop splash.


    The Minimalist also conveys a sense of moment with a mere one-hand redirecting of the basketball. Chandler has effectively closed out at least two games Iíve seen this season with a series of backtaps. Near the end of the fourth quarter, defenses tire in the same way an NFL D might start giving up chunks of rushing yardage. When this happens, Tyson is liable to make as little contact with the ball as possible while making as much impact on the game as possible. Then, teams in their final throes suffer the demoralizing death pang of watching Chandler tap out Knick misses again and again.


    Thatís Tyson Chandler, so special a specialist as to make him more valuable than any big man generalist. So maximally minimal as to be great. Nowadays, the center position isnít dead; Itís just found a way to be dominant without dominating.
    You don't have to trust my instincts you watch the same game. I'm sure any knick fan sees him non contest shots every game. And get pushed around miss lobs. Ya know the things he's good at. In which are depleting. Actually in the game threads we talk about that. I'm also sure that a guy with a degree can with a journalism degree can write that article with all negative points about him. Rono my point is HE DOESN'T FINISH AT THE RIM AT THE SUCCESS RATE OF YEARS PAST! He doesn't get to or from his pick position as fast. Can jump as high so his already limited help defense and shot blocking abilities are even worse. If u take away his tips he really only averages about 7 to 8 boards a game. Pathetic for a 7 foot "defensive" center. That article also doesn't back your claim about him be our second best offensive player which is an abomination of an opinion

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    Idk when that article was written, nor am I gonna google "why tyson chandler is valuable" but that article is true if its 2 years ago. I appreciate the attempt at backing your argument but its just the same thing as what you said. I read what you said and I don't care for a journalism degree-written point(because that doesn't make you a better basketball thespian, you can just articulate your points better) while doing that may impress less intelligent knick fans not me. I don't think you are the only person to share your stance on t.c. neither am I in my stance so I don't need to post someone elses same opinion as mine in a weak attempt at proof...I'm sorry rono but he's not that same enforcer he used to be. If he was then I'd appreciate it but his skills have degenerated.

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    Last edited by knicksince 93; Sep 03, 2013 at 14:37.

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    Fundamentally Sound ronoranina's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicksince 93
    Idk when that article was written, nor am I gonna google "why tyson chandler is valuable" but that article is true if its 2 years ago. I appreciate the attempt at backing your argument but its just the same thing as what you said. I read what you said and I don't care for a journalism degree-written point(because that doesn't make you a better basketball thespian, you can just articulate your points better) while doing that may impress less intelligent knick fans not me. I don't think you are the only person to share your stance on t.c. neither am I in my stance so I don't need to post someone elses same opinion as mine in a weak attempt at proof...I'm sorry rono but he's not that same enforcer he used to be. If he was then I'd appreciate it but his skills have degenerated.

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    The date is right on the article. What is there to not be sure of, or miss..?? Article was written just before Xmas last year, and based on his performance from the 1st half of last season, which was stellar.

    No, posting researched statistical evidence from last season, including the stat showing clearly that TC was fourth in the league in win shares behind Durant, Paul and Lebron shows that I'm a "better basketball thespian" than you. I don't appreciate you not backing your argument, which has no basis other than a limited sample during which time TC was supposedly still injured and playing with said injury.

    We'll see if what you say holds water. I think it's tough to tell whether or not he has lost a step or two, or if he was not the same last season because of the bulging disc in his neck. I'm betting based on his age and past performances that the latter is the case. Again we willl see

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    My argument is observation therefore I can't back it up until the season. HOWEVER I hope I'm wrong for the sake of our team. If I'm right we're screwed. In response to your win shares post( advanced stats are a big misconception) so he's higher then melo so chandler is more valuable to our wins then melo? I think not. To refute that I'll say he missed time and we had our best winning percentage while he was gone... we'll see but like I've said I don't want to be right here

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    Originally Posted by knicksince 93
    So deandre isn't less experienced then a player who's been in the league over a decade? Silly response that's an obvious answer. Todays noah on that mavs team, they still win a championship. Noah on our team makes us waaaaaaaay better then tyson chandler. We wouldn't have lost to indy with noah. Tyson chandler isn't a great shot blocker, not a great rebounder, can't score, cant play help defense. In fact the only center he plays well is dwight Howard. But he has major offensive limitations as well. He went out for a substantial amount of time and we not only missed a beat we got better none of our numbers dipped. How is needed then. He's still serviceable and can still be a center on championship caliber teams if they don't have our deficiencies. You picked doc, he'll play him across from blake who will grab all the boards, or across from duncan who again will do the boarding and defense that chandler does. Chicago doesn't need him so pointless to respond to them. I'm not saying he's useless to us but if we could move him We'd be perfectly fine without him

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    Wow so you are one of those type posters that flips words to make an argument work

    You implied that DeAndre was simply just a less experienced TC and I am saying that Tyson is more than DeAndre Jordan with a few extra years....yeah I think it goes without saying who has played in more games.

    But if it is years that you are talking about then consider this... more years does not automatically make a player more expereinced which you imply by stating Tyson has been in the league over a decade.

    Example being Russell Westbrook vs. Jamal Crawford. Crawford in the league a decade (like Tyson) and Westbrook drafted the same year as Jordan but who would you call more experienced?

    So you're wrong however you put it!

    Umm...you say Tyson has offensive limitations but in the same breath you praise Noah who is even more offensively inept at scoring.

    Tyson shot .633 from the floor to Noah's .488 Tyson does not try to do too much on offense Noah does. Noah turns the ball over nearly twice as much as Tyson...this is all because Tyson plays within his game Noah tries to do more than he is capable of...again I am not bashing Noah, he's got heart and hustle but Tyson is a better Center than Noah and this is only an argument now because of how Tyson played in the playoffs.

    Coming into last season Tyson was considered an untouchable by Knick fans now they wanna dump him.

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    Originally Posted by New New York
    Wow so you are one of those type posters that flips words to make an argument work

    You implied that DeAndre was simply just a less experienced TC and I am saying that Tyson is more than DeAndre Jordan with a few extra years....yeah I think it goes without saying who has played in more games.

    But if it is years that you are talking about then consider this... more years does not automatically make a player more expereinced which you imply by stating Tyson has been in the league over a decade.

    Example being Russell Westbrook vs. Jamal Crawford. Crawford in the league a decade (like Tyson) and Westbrook drafted the same year as Jordan but who would you call more experienced?

    So you're wrong however you put it!

    Umm...you say Tyson has offensive limitations but in the same breath you praise Noah who is even more offensively inept at scoring.

    Tyson shot .633 from the floor to Noah's .488 Tyson does not try to do too much on offense Noah does. Noah turns the ball over nearly twice as much as Tyson...this is all because Tyson plays within his game Noah tries to do more than he is capable of...again I am not bashing Noah, he's got heart and hustle but Tyson is a better Center than Noah and this is only an argument now because of how Tyson played in the playoffs.

    Coming into last season Tyson was considered an untouchable by Knick fans now they wanna dump him.
    Wait did u just imply that Russell Westbrook has more experience then jamal crawford? That's just plain dumb like just dumb. Jamal Crawford is def a more experienced player then russell Westbrook. Does that mean he's better no, don't confuse talent with experience. That's not even worth a response. Its completely idiotic to say someone that only been in the league for Russell's years is more experienced then someone who been in it for a decade. Ny go learn what experience is before you chime in... so sad. Coming into last season he was considered untouchable but that was a whole year ago. Coming into last season we were still talking amare as an all star. Injuries happen and players regress. Yall keep referencing to what he did prior to last year. As rono stated he had a good first half then flamed out. So if he had a good first half but flamed out in the second half(prior to injury) and never recovered for the playoffs. So we played 30 games last year and he was good for the first 30, how can I not speculate. Actually I have more reason to be weary of him then yall do to be optimistic because even last years first half wasn't better then his previous years second half. He's been gradually declining since we got him and that's an obvious truth. So what are yall hyping him up for but make references to not last year but the previous year for proof. News flash it's not 2 years ago. He's changed. P.s. noah is better then dude he can actually hit a jump shot and has some kind of post game. Its beyond comparison. My brother is a Chicago fan and coming into last season I argued him up and down that tc was better then noah. Not anymore. I hope he can bounce back but declining nba players over 30 don't normally do that.

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    knicksince 93 .. I'm curious about ur bigman comments, how do u rate Tim Duncan performance in 2012-13?
    ur argument against Tyson Chandler is really a justification for ISO-Melo at PF.

    Noah got Boozer & Deng
    Hibbert got West & Paul
    Perkins got Ibaka & Durant
    Gasol got Zach & Prince
    Lopez got Evans & AK47
    D.Howard got Smith & Parson
    All of the above fowards are 6.9 and better ....
    How well did 6.9 ISO-Melo & 6.6 JRsmith do in the Paint area in offense/defense to help Tyson?
    A) above average
    B) average
    C) below average
    If u selected C below average u are correct...

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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    knicksince 93 .. I'm curious about ur bigman comments, how do u rate Tim Duncan performance in 2012-13?
    ur argument against Tyson Chandler is really a justification for ISO-Melo at PF.

    Noah got Boozer & Deng
    Hibbert got West & Paul
    Perkins got Ibaka & Durant
    Gasol got Zach & Prince
    Lopez got Evans & AK47
    D.Howard got Smith & Parson
    All of the above fowards are 6.9 and better ....
    How well did 6.9 ISO-Melo & 6.6 JRsmith do in the Paint area in offense/defense to help Tyson?
    A) above average
    B) average
    C) below average
    If u selected C below average u are correct...
    Huh??? Kiya go back to school please...my tc comments are saying he doesn't rebound or block shots or help defend but that somehow justifies iso melo? Wait but I'm saying also in my aforementioned posts that tyson would also have more success next to Blake Griffin ya know for rebounding, or tim Duncan who blocks shots or rebounds extremely well. Melo doesn't block shots or rebound any better then tyson chandler so I'm clearly not justifying anything here. You come out of left field with stuff that makes no sense and not relevant for the current thread. We're debating tc please let us do so. Comment on that or go to another thread.

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    Originally Posted by knicksince 93
    Huh??? Kiya go back to school please...my tc comments are saying he doesn't rebound or block shots or help defend but that somehow justifies iso melo? Wait but I'm saying also in my aforementioned posts that tyson would also have more success next to Blake Griffin ya know for rebounding, or tim Duncan who blocks shots or rebounds extremely well. Melo doesn't block shots or rebound any better then tyson chandler so I'm clearly not justifying anything here. You come out of left field with stuff that makes no sense and not relevant for the current thread. We're debating tc please let us do so. Comment on that or go to another thread.

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    School of thought .. Tyson Chandler was a double-double center with 1 block per game in 2012-13 season (63%).
    Throughout the 2012-13 season, Tyson Chandler had no bigmen help in paint or in his lineup on offense/defense.
    The only PF on our roster Tyson was given steady minutes to GELL with in the lineup was ISO-Melo.
    HC Woodson used PF-Rasheed, PF-Amare, and PF-Kenyon Martin as Tyson backup at center.
    A Rasheed Wallace gave us 7 pts, 4 rb in 14 minutes (39%).
    A Amare Stoudemire gave us 14 pts, 5 rb in 23 minutes (58%).
    A Kenyon Martin gave us 7 pts, 5 rb in 23 minutes (60%)
    Our 40 minute PF-ISO-Melo gave us 28 pts, 6 rb, 2 ast, on 44% shooting.

    All of the above is history .. on what is needed to make our bigmen frontcourt rotation better next season with a 30 minute Tyson Chandler at center.
    We added a 7.0 center Bargani to our roster, who career vs top centers & top PF have Bargani shooting below 35% and under 5 rebounds per 30 minutes.

    We have 2 decent Star PF in 6.10 Amare and 6.9 Kenyon Martin, who I believe should be working-out in the offseason with Tyson & Bargani on offensive-plays and defensive-plays.
    All this individual-work-out in the offseason with personal trainers in different cities each offseason has not help the chemistry of this Knicks team 3 high paid players (Tyson/Amare/Melo) .. the 3 top paid players has not showed any chemistry, or Gellin on offense or defense in two straight seasons.
    This upcoming season we added a $10M C-Bargani, a $7M SF-Meta, and a $7M PG-Beno to the roster.
    It's Sept, 6th, and all the players I mention in this thread not one has showed up to work-out this offseason at the Knicks practice facility with other Knicks teammates. So Knicks opticism this upcoming season is at a very low for me after HC Woody poor substitution, poor team defense, and 90% isolation offense.

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    wow, this thread doesn't look pretty for 93, at all.

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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    wow, this thread doesn't look pretty for 93, at all.
    Metro I just owned you, made u disappear for 2 weeks. Put the hit out to get u banned. Other posters followed suit. And I guarantee your whole approach and hotheaded responses will be much more tame after dealing with me. Fellow forum members your welcome

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    Originally Posted by knicksince 93
    Metro I just owned you, made u disappear for 2 weeks. Put the hit out to get u banned. Other posters followed suit. And I guarantee your whole approach and hotheaded responses will be much more tame after dealing with me. Fellow forum members your welcome

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    lol, I left the site out of my own choice. You have and never had any impact, but whatever helps you sleep at night.


    But I don't see what that has to do with my post. I was just commenting on how the major players on this site are really putting you to shame in the debate department and all you can do is reply unproductively.

    When you start a post with "Go back to school please" then you really need to reconsider your status on this site and how people cringe when you post.

    Atleast when I post, I make someone laugh and it's entertaining.

    It's just painful to read your post at this point and this thread is evident because you can't go without throwing temper attacks at posters when you can't prove your point. It's unproductive posting. You can't debate, so you throw attacks. Weak.

    I don't think this is a place for you, and stop aligning yourself with other forum members. No one here knows you. lol

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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    School of thought .. Tyson Chandler was a double-double center with 1 block per game in 2012-13 season (63%).
    Throughout the 2012-13 season, Tyson Chandler had no bigmen help in paint or in his lineup on offense/defense.
    The only PF on our roster Tyson was given steady minutes to GELL with in the lineup was ISO-Melo.
    HC Woodson used PF-Rasheed, PF-Amare, and PF-Kenyon Martin as Tyson backup at center.
    A Rasheed Wallace gave us 7 pts, 4 rb in 14 minutes (39%).
    A Amare Stoudemire gave us 14 pts, 5 rb in 23 minutes (58%).
    A Kenyon Martin gave us 7 pts, 5 rb in 23 minutes (60%)
    Our 40 minute PF-ISO-Melo gave us 28 pts, 6 rb, 2 ast, on 44% shooting.

    All of the above is history .. on what is needed to make our bigmen frontcourt rotation better next season with a 30 minute Tyson Chandler at center.
    We added a 7.0 center Bargani to our roster, who career vs top centers & top PF have Bargani shooting below 35% and under 5 rebounds per 30 minutes.

    We have 2 decent Star PF in 6.10 Amare and 6.9 Kenyon Martin, who I believe should be working-out in the offseason with Tyson & Bargani on offensive-plays and defensive-plays.
    All this individual-work-out in the offseason with personal trainers in different cities each offseason has not help the chemistry of this Knicks team 3 high paid players (Tyson/Amare/Melo) .. the 3 top paid players has not showed any chemistry, or Gellin on offense or defense in two straight seasons.
    This upcoming season we added a $10M C-Bargani, a $7M SF-Meta, and a $7M PG-Beno to the roster.
    It's Sept, 6th, and all the players I mention in this thread not one has showed up to work-out this offseason at the Knicks practice facility with other Knicks teammates. So Knicks opticism this upcoming season is at a very low for me after HC Woody poor substitution, poor team defense, and 90% isolation offense.
    When Sheed got hurt, our defense and offense together took a big shot to the knee.

    It also exposed Mike Woodson a bit, I wasn't feeling Melo guarding the likes of Marc Gasol and various NBA centers.

    The addition of Kenyon Martin help fill void that Rasheed left us.

    We got Martin back, but he's a year older. Can he perform the same way he did last season?

    A guy that the Knicks should look at is Renaldo Balkman. He's pretty improve his offensive game and his defense is still steller. He's also one of the best rebounders that doesn't have an NBA contract.



    Right now, he's representing Puerto Rico in the FIBA Americas tournament in Caracas, Venezuela. This tournament will qualify a FIBA America team to Spain in 2014.

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



    20.6 ppg
    8.4 rpg
    1 asp
    78%FG
    80%FT

    in 30 minutes per game.

    Balkman, like Alfonso Soriano should have never left his home team.

    I think Balkman would be a great 15th man addition to the team.

    I don't trust Chandler's, Amare's and Bargnani's health.

    Balkman will help Melo and let Melo move to his natural position of SF.

    It'll also add a rebounder to make up for Bargnani and Amare.

    That's just my little plan, I don't think Knicks will take action.

    but at this point, Balkman right now is one of the best players outside the NBA or without an NBA contract.



    Balkman is a DEFENSE guy...he'll be great in orange and blue.

    most importantly, Balkman has reached his full potential in the pick and roll.


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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    lol, I left the site out of my own choice. You have and never had any impact, but whatever helps you sleep at night.


    But I don't see what that has to do with my post. I was just commenting on how the major players on this site are really putting you to shame in the debate department and all you can do is reply unproductively.

    When you start a post with "Go back to school please" then you really need to reconsider your status on this site and how people cringe when you post.

    Atleast when I post, I make someone laugh and it's entertaining.

    It's just painful to read your post at this point and this thread is evident because you can't go without throwing temper attacks at posters when you can't prove your point. It's unproductive posting. You can't debate, so you throw attacks. Weak.

    I don't think this is a place for you, and stop aligning yourself with other forum members. No one here knows you. lol
    Look at this civil response. Metro I'm proud you finally grew up. All it took was a potential petition to ban. Alot of boys need to be disciplined and then they understand how to act therefore we can actually debate stuff and not just verbal spat because you aren't a bad debater. Just a sucky forum member imo... anyway melo, jr ray are all more important to our team then tc. And bargs will be this year to

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk 2

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