It's got to be the Triangle

T

tiger0330

Legend
The Westchester Knicks are 9-25 in the D-League and like the Knicks in last place in the their Atlantic division so how do two teams with different players and coaches wind up having awful seasons, my answer the Triangle offense.

I am not a big fan of PJ's triangle offense for a variety of reasons some of which I have mentioned, too many mid-range shots, not enough FTs etc. but there are the intangibles as well like Darnell Jackson our PF in Westchester saying it's harder to learn than other offenses and common sense tells you that 5 guys running down lanes and spotting up around the floor is an easier way to get spacing than running it through the triangle.

I was reading PJ is open to changing the offense and DFish has the latitude to do it. I hope along with whatever player changes happen to the team they scrap the Triangle next season because the Knicks have no chance of winning with it.
 
mafra

mafra

Legend
tiger0330 said:
The Westchester Knicks are 9-25 in the D-League and like the Knicks in last place in the their Atlantic division so how do two teams with different players and coaches wind up having awful seasons, my answer the Triangle offense.

I am not a big fan of PJ's triangle offense for a variety of reasons some of which I have mentioned, too many mid-range shots, not enough FTs etc. but there are the intangibles as well like Darnell Jackson our PF in Westchester saying it's harder to learn than other offenses and common sense tells you that 5 guys running down lanes and spotting up around the floor is an easier way to get spacing than running it through the triangle.

I was reading PJ is open to changing the offense and DFish has the latitude to do it. I hope along with whatever player changes happen to the team they scrap the Triangle next season because the Knicks have no chance of winning with it.
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Triangle offense only works if you have an MJ or a KOBE. Does this mean we target a Jimmy Butler or a Wesley Matthews? We need that type of SG... and a PG who can drain the 3...
 
donchris

donchris

Next season, keep waiting
tiger0330 said:
The Westchester Knicks are 9-25 in the D-League and like the Knicks in last place in the their Atlantic division so how do two teams with different players and coaches wind up having awful seasons, my answer the Triangle offense.

I am not a big fan of PJ's triangle offense for a variety of reasons some of which I have mentioned, too many mid-range shots, not enough FTs etc. but there are the intangibles as well like Darnell Jackson our PF in Westchester saying it's harder to learn than other offenses and common sense tells you that 5 guys running down lanes and spotting up around the floor is an easier way to get spacing than running it through the triangle.

I was reading PJ is open to changing the offense and DFish has the latitude to do it. I hope along with whatever player changes happen to the team they scrap the Triangle next season because the Knicks have no chance of winning with it.
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Got to disagree with you on this one. The triangle is a solid system that when run efficiently is very hard to defend. The primes of is is ball movement and player movement with and without the ball. It creates lots of options on offense and makes the defense hard to read.

The league has embraced speed ball and jacking up shots, but that's never been the Knicks game nor has it really been a path to the championship (See San Antonio Spurs). The problem with this team is, well, they suck! Kurt Rambus ran the triangle in Minnesota unsuccessfully largely due to a void of talent and high basketball IQ players. That doesn't take away from his ability or knowledge as a coach.

I'm not in love with any system. I just don't think the system or coaching is at fault. Knicks don't play team defense, or any defense for that matter. That has to be a priority.
 
K

Kiyaman

Legend
The triangle was successful having 3 creative players who can play the point plus multi-position on offense/defense ..
MJ, Pippin, Paxion
MJ, Pippin, Harper
Harper, Kobe, Fox
Fisher, Kobe, Fox
Fisher, Kobe, Odom
The Phil Knicks did not have one player on the roster that talent came close to matching up with any of the trio players Phil used in his championship triangle.
No more to b said .. I only see two players in the 2015 FA market capable of playing inq. the backcourt of the triangle
 
T

tiger0330

Legend
Kiyaman said:
The triangle was successful having 3 creative players who can play the point plus multi-position on offense/defense ..
MJ, Pippin, Paxion
MJ, Pippin, Harper
Harper, Kobe, Fox
Fisher, Kobe, Fox
Fisher, Kobe, Odom
The Phil Knicks did not have one player on the roster that talent came close to matching up with any of the trio players Phil used in his championship triangle.
No more to b said .. I only see two players in the 2015 FA market capable of playing inq. the backcourt of the triangle
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So our DLeague players suck as well compared to the rest of the DLeague? If success of the triangle is dependent on having hall of fame players like MJ, Kobe, Scottie and Shaq then the Knicks are doomed unless you think Melo is going into the HOF.

Nobody but the Knicks run that crap offense, if it was a winning system more teams would be running it.
 
K

Kiyaman

Legend
The reason Phil created the triangle were to get other players into the offense .. MJ, Piippin, Paxion, and perimeter shooters.
Phil Chicago Bulls first 3 championship seasons had a perimeter-shooter (cant recall his name) who was the best 3-ball shooter for 4 straight years in the NBA, he became one of Phil coaches in L.A..

The success of the triangle-offense is from having a tight defense.
We all recall .. Boston Celtics assit-coach Thibs BIG-3 Defense took the 2008-9 title from Phil's triangle Lakers in 6 games of pure DEFENSE.
Head-coach Fisher did not coach a second
 
mafra

mafra

Legend
Kiyaman said:
The reason Phil created the triangle were to get other players into the offense .. MJ, Piippin, Paxion, and perimeter shooters.
Phil Chicago Bulls first 3 championship seasons had a perimeter-shooter (cant recall his name) who was the best 3-ball shooter for 4 straight years in the NBA, he became one of Phil coaches in L.A..

The success of the triangle-offense is from having a tight defense.
We all recall .. Boston Celtics assit-coach Thibs BIG-3 Defense took the 2008-9 title from Phil's triangle Lakers in 6 games of pure DEFENSE.
Head-coach Fisher did not coach a second
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Well, ex-Knick Rory Sparrow on that team... But I think you are talking about Craig Hodges or BJ Armstrong. They both made 36 & 35 in 1992. Now, a dude might make 8 in a game. Hodges took 96 threes that year... That's what JR does in a week.
 
K

Kiyaman

Legend
mafra said:
Well, ex-Knick Rory Sparrow on that team... But I think you are talking about Craig Hodges or BJ Armstrong. They both made 36 & 35 in 1992. Now, a dude might make 8 in a game. Hodges took 96 threes that year... That's what JR does in a week.
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Yeah .. Craig Hodges
Why didn't feel call Hodges to join Knicks coaching-staff .. especially the way the triangle have players living on the perimeter
 
T

tiger0330

Legend
mafra said:
Well, ex-Knick Rory Sparrow on that team... But I think you are talking about Craig Hodges or BJ Armstrong. They both made 36 & 35 in 1992. Now, a dude might make 8 in a game. Hodges took 96 threes that year... That's what JR does in a week.
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The other day Billy Walker, yes that (our) Billy Walker who is now playing for the Heat on a 10 day contract shot 11 3s, I think he missed his first 9 but the last 2 he made won the game. If a DLeaguer on a 10 day has the green light from the coach to jack them up you know the game has changed.
 
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P

Paul1355

All Star
We havent had structure as an NBA team in a while. Mike Dantonis run and gun and Woodson's iso Melo offenses were atrocious. I can respect a legit proven system. Yes Phil had arguably the two greatest scoring guards of all time but many greats never won any rings. There is so much more to rings than one player, a team with a plan. The problem is that Phil is not running the triangle, its Fisher. Only Phil has won with the triangle.

I say we trust the system because it has always taken time for players to adapt unless they are so talented they can learn on the fly.

Phil will keep some guys that are familiar...we need familiarity to see it work.

We also need some better players.
 
T

tiger0330

Legend
Did anyone read what Flip Saunders said about Shved and why he's done well since coming to NY. He said Shved isn't a 1 and isn't a 2, he's a hybrid guard and that's what the triangle is, a system for hybrid guards. Like I said it's a fouled up system in which you have to find players that fit which makes it harder to build a team.
 
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CoolClyde

CoolClyde

Moderator
yes it's a fouled up system, to the tune of 11 championship rings.

and of course, the zen master's going to have trouble finding the players that fit.... not.

that's why he blew the whole f*cking team up! something most knicks fans have been asking for the past 5 years!

it's about finding smart players, as in intelligent bballers, not just talented gunners ala Junior Sh*t.
if Phil can't find them, no one can.
 
B

Broadway

All Star
CoolClyde said:
yes it's a fouled up system, to the tune of 11 championship rings.

and of course, the zen master's going to have trouble finding the players that fit.... not.

that's why he blew the whole f*cking team up! something most knicks fans have been asking for the past 5 years!

it's about finding smart players, as in intelligent bballers, not just talented gunners ala Junior Sh*t.
if Phil can't find them, no one can.
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I'm not going to buy this. Knicks were relevant when Phil was a rival. It can be relevant with or without him.

This franchise can survive if we stop making stupid decisions. Phil may be able to get himself out of the pit of snakes he placed himself in but if not, he being the elder statesman he is, he'll be replaced and we'll have to keep rooting for the next exec.

Phil is not going to be here forever, so placing all our hopes and dreams into his remaining 4yrs is very shortsighted at best. All I hope if he falls short.... when he exits he truly leaves this franchise in better hands which is more than likely his best possible outcome.


As far as the Triangle a lot has to be proven. Can it work with today's players...Kobe says the triangle system has infiltrated other systems, so the jury is still out. No one has witnessed it working without the best players of all time operating in it. I see benefits of running it but our talent pool is so lacking and so far behind other teams and PHIL IS NOT COACHING THIS TEAM.
 
K

Kiyaman

Legend
The Knicks triangle-offense loss to the 14-53 Timberwolves in MSG 92-95 OT
Any team playing any kind of team-system will beat the young defenseless Timberwolves team.

Cool-Clyde .... is correct, coach Phil Jackson surrounded himself with high IQ players to put in his championship rotation.
Phil Jackson also added a few of his high IQ ex-players from the Bulls to the Lakers coaching-staff.
Coach Phil Jackson championship teams won on their elite DEFENSE.
I recall a time when coach Phil Jackson couldn't beat the Detroit Piston Bad-Boys, or the Boston Celtics BIG-3, until Phil developed an elite defensive rotation to run the triangle-offense.

The Knicks started the 2014-15 training-camp practicing the number-one asset to the triangle-offense, which happen to be "Team-Defense" .. certain Knicks players started complaining, and the Knicks hasn't played team defense all season.
The 2014-15 Knicks and the D.League Westchester team are LOSERS .. because their coaches don't coach TEAM-DEFENSE!
It's very hard for me to affiliate the tanking-season, $124M resigning, the Tyson trade, and the Shump trade apart of the old Phil Jackson actions. If this is the new Phil Jackson .. please trade him asap.
 
CoolClyde

CoolClyde

Moderator
The 2014-15 Knicks and the D.League Westchester team are pretty much on the same level, as far as gamesmanship, team basketball, and actually playing together. it's a team of scrubs, especially the 2nd half of season. you can't expect such a team to compete with anyone... the tank is full on, playing for next season. Any team where a D-Leaguer is one of the best players (Galloway), and Alexey Shved (a bench player) is the star, what have you got? the worst team in the league, given.

I can't see how you guys, Broadway and Kiyaman, are calling for Phil Jackson's head for one lost season, where most of the starters were hurt to start the season, underachieved and/or got traded for beans. The tank is on, Melo needed surgery, the triangle is a viable offensive strategy, and defense is understood to be the defining element of a successful championship team, as Phil Jackson learned from Red Holtzman, and implemented in his 11 championship teams (+2 as a player).

both you guys need to chill and stop dissing anything that happens this season, relax and have faith in an extremely intelligent basketball mind, who took the job not to make money, but to bring a championship to the team he loves by blowing up the team, and starting from scratch next season, with money to spend, a top first round draft pick to boot.

how long has it been since that scenario belonged to the NY Knicks? you can thank Tank Jackson for making it happen.
 
T

tiger0330

Legend
Way too much confidence for a guy with no experience rebuilding a team and the rah rah cheer leading about building a new culture doesn't amount to any thing more than noise.

Just remember PJ always had the rep of only wanting to coach ready made teams that were already built to contend, he turned down a lot of coaching gigs because they weren't the right fit meaning they were rebuilding projects. I dont think he has the mindset to rebuild a team from near scratch. Guys are already guessing that he'll be gone before his contract ends and he does care about the money, he's not making an obscene 60M because he has no desire to get paid.
 
CoolClyde

CoolClyde

Moderator
yep, i've got confidence in the guy. he turned down coaching because he couldn't travel as much anymore.

but, it's OK, we can agree to disagree until we see what happens next season, because between now and then, it's just a lot of hot air, guessing, and blaming PJ for a team that you knew was going to suck as soon as the JR/Shump trade went down, and probably even sooner.

go ahead, call the guy inexperienced, making stupid decisions, and he'll be gone before his contract ends. i think you're counting your chickens before PJ has even bought the eggs.
 
B

Broadway

All Star
Clyde no disrespect but you're giving kudos to Phil Jackson for things that were already there and not acknowledging some damage that has been done. You're also supporting a Tank job, not by design. Phil failed in his first yr by his own standards and admission. He said the Knicks were a playoff team instead we're the worst team in basketball.

And for the record the Knicks had the 5th pick in the lottery Frye(2005) and 6th pick in Gallo(2008), where did it get us. Don't get me wrong I love the fact we have a high lottery pick coming to us but I won't oversell this, nor will I embrace it as an original plan.

Phil has a chance to come out looking good, his % of doing so are no greater than our chances of winning the lottery.
 
K

Kiyaman

Legend
CoolClyde said:
The 2014-15 Knicks and the D.League Westchester team are pretty much on the same level, as far as gamesmanship, team basketball, and actually playing together. it's a team of scrubs, especially the 2nd half of season. you can't expect such a team to compete with anyone... the tank is full on, playing for next season. Any team where a D-Leaguer is one of the best players (Galloway), and Alexey Shved (a bench player) is the star, what have you got? the worst team in the league, given.

I can't see how you guys, Broadway and Kiyaman, are calling for Phil Jackson's head for one lost season, where most of the starters were hurt to start the season, underachieved and/or got traded for beans. The tank is on, Melo needed surgery, the triangle is a viable offensive strategy, and defense is understood to be the defining element of a successful championship team, as Phil Jackson learned from Red Holtzman, and implemented in his 11 championship teams (+2 as a player).

both you guys need to chill and stop dissing anything that happens this season, relax and have faith in an extremely intelligent basketball mind, who took the job not to make money, but to bring a championship to the team he loves by blowing up the team, and starting from scratch next season, with money to spend, a top first round draft pick to boot.

how long has it been since that scenario belonged to the NY Knicks? you can thank Tank Jackson for making it happen.
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The day Phil Jackson were hired as Knicks president .. The Knicks players took on a new change in the organization to go on a 16-5 run to end the season. The 16-5 run was done by not letting Melo & JR run the point anytime they wanted, plus not letting rookie THJ get minutes in the 4th quarter of the game.
Those were the 2 things that gave the 2013-14 Knicks a 21-40 record.

Phil Jackson had the chance of having 3 first round 2015 picks, plus enough cap-space to rebuild with veterans and young players by keeping all the expensive one year contract players (Tyson Chandler/Amare/Barg/ & Felton), and letting the one year franchise contract CANCER player Carmelo Anthony opt-out to go to the next team.
The Knicks would've started the 2014-15 season playing .500 Ball, and a month before the 2015 trading deadline Phil could've started trading players for draft picks.

When the first game of the Knicks 2014-15 season had (D.League product) Larkins as the Knicks starter PG.
It was official .. TANKING season!
Galloway out played Larkins in every summer league game, to the point of Larkins being cut.
Felton career has always been a much better PG than Calderon, so starting Larkins at PG to open the season with the franchise CANCER player receiving a $124M raise for opting-out demanded a 14-55 LOSER record.
 
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