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Thread: LARRY IS AS MUCH TO BLAME AS ISIAH

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    Default LARRY IS AS MUCH TO BLAME AS ISIAH


    After the latest trade, Thomas has been getting a lot of heat. The funny thing is, everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that it was Brown who asked for Steve Francis. Why has Brown dodged so much blame? Here are a list of what he has done wrong, in my opinion
    1) The 100 starting lineups- with all the injuries, combo players and rookies, I ddin't blame him for all the different lineups at the beginning of the season, but jerking Lee, Woods, Robinson and Frye in and out of the rotation is what causes so much confusion.
    2) He has not coached to the strengths of his team-The team is built to run, yet we continue to run half court plays, force feeding the ball inside and overpassing. Count the number of open shots passed up in a Knick game. This makes us passive on offense, which results in all the slow starts.
    3) If your team struggles in man to man "D", play zone. Dribble penetration kills us every game. Curry is often late to block the shots because of all the switching we do defensively. More zone defense will help. When we play it, we fotrce more T.O's and get out on the breaks faster.
    4) It is Brown's stubbornness and micromanaging and overcoaching that makes this team worse than it is. Even with all the injuries, trades, rookies, this team has too much talent to have this record. Several players have gotten worse under Brown. The fact that everybody looks scared to take shots is an indictment on the coach.
    5) The lack of passion- I don't blame Brown completely for this, but beacuse of all the overcoaching, the players appear to be thinking too much, causing confusion and frustration. They are disenchanted with him at times, making a "I don't give a **** attitude.
    Don't get me wrong, Isiah and the players must share the blame for this debacle. But if Isiah goes down, then Brown, his staff, and the guy that hired Isiah should go down too.

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    You're right...Brown has done an awful job, and personally I think he's an overrated coach. I made this point once before that unlike the true elite coaches, he doesn't know how to make the most of the talent he's given. He has one style, one philosophy, and he only knows how to do things that one way. He's been way too shifty with the lineups and the rotations, which has been ridiculous. As for the defense, I think the players earlier in the year actually asked for a simplification of the D....how can a team like that be expected to play a zone defense which involves more strategy and understanding.

    The main issue here is that Isiah has never had a plan with this team...he claims to have one, and then he changes direction with the bat of an eye. And yeah, LB may have asked for Francis as part of that "list" he gave Isiah, but I'm sure he didn't say he wanted both Francis AND Marbury in the same backcourt and have Jamal Crawford coming off the bench...that just makes no sense, and it's up to Isiah to use his own common sense to figure that out and make the right moves. LB was brought here to coach, and he can give his opinions on moves, but that final decision is Isiah's...he's the moron that doesn't seem to know what he's doing.

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    Default Larry is absolutely equal to blame

    Larry Brown is a coach the has his teams play in half court
    Isiah Thomas has built a team that is better suited for transitions (run and gun)

    Clear and simple this is a mismatch.

    Flip Saunders was better suited to coach the knicks
    Larry brown should have stayed in detroit

    Now this team has to rebuild for larry brown.Thats not fair to the fans.
    Hopefully the knick can get something done this summer.

    I think we should somehow try to (indiana's coach) rick carlise here, this man can seriously coach, he made it to the playoff last year even with o'neal,jackson & artest out for most of the year. Come on if thats not get the best out of you players, then stick with larry brown.

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    Member Pedro De Pacas's Avatar
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    Sorry, but this is only Isiahs fault, because he can't build a run&gun-team and then he hires a coach who is known for his whole career to coach a totaly different style.
    He hired the coach, like he hired every player on our roster: just because of their names.

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    You guys are killing me!!!! Last year we had coaches that opened up the floor and had them running and gunning and they still lost!! There is no concept of reality here!! Even if you "run and gun" you still need to play some form of defense. Even if Brown said, hell with it and let them run up and down; we still couldn't out score most teams in this league!! The problem is the players Isiah has assembled do not make up a cohesive team. You know, that is like asking Phil Jackson to come here and coach and ask him NOT to run the triangle offense, the very format that has brought him to success. Flip Saunders couldn’t not have squeezed any more life out of this team than Brown has been able to, this team STINKS!!! Most of the players are selfish and undersized, they don’t try to stop anyone they just care about getting themselves off and that is it. The Spurs, Pistons and any other NBA champs play a TEAM concept, not 5 individuals trying to best themselves every night. Isiah stinks when it comes to assembling a TEAM!!!

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    Sure they were still bad last year. But this year they are worst with more depth and talent. So logically the coach has to get the blame (100% of it). Isiah Thoms has done a superb job. Why do I say that because in New York he has to try to rebuild on the fly. If you were told two years ago that we'd have Eddie Curry, Jamal Crawford, Q. Richardson and a rookie of the year candidate (if he played more) at power forward you'd say where could you sign. People we had the worst lineup in the league. Now the players don't want to play for Larry Brown. Larry is an overrated coach. I've been saying that for ages. He couldn't win with the US Olympic team. He had Duncan, Stoudamire, Iverson, Lebron, Wade wich should have been his starting five on his team and couldn't win. He sucks as a coach. If the Knicks fire Thomas they will have handed the GM job to Larry Brown. And will have to ask ourselves do we want to sit around and wait for a championship for the playoffs another 7 years?

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    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    Interesting points have been made. Non the less I feel brown is the right coach for this team. Yes mistakes have been made both my Brown and Thomas but they can and will succeed. If you think about it, the things Brown is asking for are not that difficult. At the same time there is no real consistancy with the line up. Fry and Curry must get megga minutes in order to develope. It seems that many NY'ers want wins yesterday which is impatiant and unfair. So if Brown said get me Francis then that's it. Let's not forget that Isiah was shopping Crawford but the Magic didn't bite. In a perfect world we would have been able to trade off both Penny and Crawford in a megga deal with the nuggets and the magic. The bad news is this ant a perfect world and even Phil Jackson said the trade was good for the Knicks. Francis is a great trade barganing chip! No doubt about it. There is no logic behind the talk of get rid of the coach or the gm. It makes no sense. Think about it. Who could do better with this line up?

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    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nycefnl
    Sure they were still bad last year. But this year they are worst with more depth and talent. So logically the coach has to get the blame (100% of it). Isiah Thoms has done a superb job. Why do I say that because in New York he has to try to rebuild on the fly. If you were told two years ago that we'd have Eddie Curry, Jamal Crawford, Q. Richardson and a rookie of the year candidate (if he played more) at power forward you'd say where could you sign. People we had the worst lineup in the league. Now the players don't want to play for Larry Brown. Larry is an overrated coach. I've been saying that for ages. He couldn't win with the US Olympic team. He had Duncan, Stoudamire, Iverson, Lebron, Wade wich should have been his starting five on his team and couldn't win. He sucks as a coach. If the Knicks fire Thomas they will have handed the GM job to Larry Brown. And will have to ask ourselves do we want to sit around and wait for a championship for the playoffs another 7 years?
    I want to address these issues 1 at a time:
    1) Isiah Thoms has done a superb job - Are you on meds? If not, then you should start! Isiah is most likely out the door. If not over the summer don't be surprised if he is fired before the end of the next season. I will take odds with anyone in this forum on that. He took a bad cap situation and made it a cap hell! All our players are over paid with looooooooong term contracts. He has pushed the Knicks organization into a arctic freeze. They will not be able to sign a player outright for 5 years.
    2) If you were told two years ago that we'd have Eddie Curry, Jamal Crawford, Q. Richardson and a rookie of the year candidate (if he played more) at power forward you'd say where could you sign- Well yeah I would have signed but Q was a different player, Crawford was a streaky shooter that was destine to be a 6th man (a good 6th man at that) and Curry was still this project with enormous upside. What Isiah did was give Crawford the type of contract that you would give a starter not a bench guy. Trade our only consistent defender for a injured player on the down swing and get one of the softest big man in history. Now, I was for and still am for the Curry deal. If I was the GM I would have went after him as well but Isiah didn't have to give up an uprotected pick to land him. Paxson won that battle! But that is typical of these transactions with other Gm's, they win the battle with us.
    3) Now the players don't want to play for Larry Brown. Larry is an overrated coach - You know, Booo Hooo for these over paid brats! They make millions, go out a man up you pre-Madonna’s! Is it to much to ask for you to defend your position? Please… most of the Knicks players have the same game… Me, me ,me ,me ,me and more me… You know, it seems to work, somewhat, for Kobe but not for Crawford!!
    4) He couldn't win with the US Olympic team. He had Duncan, Stoudamire, Iverson, Lebron, Wade wich should have been his starting five on his team and couldn't win – First of all, this was a flawed team. No true center and no pure shooter. Wade was horrible; he couldn’t play his game because there wasn’t a consistent outside game to free up the D. Brown didn’t want a lot of the players that ended up on the team, but no one wanted to go because of the situation in the world. If we would have had Michael Redd or Ray Allen as one of the guards, and say Ben Wallace at the 5 spot, it would have been a different story!
    5) He sucks as a coach- So all the success he has had with other NBA teams and on the collage level was either a fluke or can be attributed to someone else in the organization and Brown was just along for the ride? Please…

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    LOL Isiah has done a superb job? WOW!!! The job of the GM is to bring all of the pieces together and that has not happened. If you are right about Larry being a bad coach then you STILL have to blame Isiah because he hired him. The players, the coach, and the big picture all lay squarely on the shoulders of the GM (any GM) in terms of responsibility.

    I am not defending Brown because I am not happy with his current approach (we may be damned but we are going to play my way no matter if we have the players to do it or not) because you coach what you have in front of you... you play the cards you are dealt, it is a fundamental fact.

    The players are failing too, some more than others but I am absolutely tired of hearing about getting more from Curry. In today's Post, LB says "I've said this from Day One, you got to get guys who are defensive-minded, have a high basketball IQ, play unselfishly and play hard and try to rebound the ball." Curry is none of those things. I am as amazed with Curry's low post game as anyone but he does not box out, is lazy, does not play D, does not rebound, is not smart and nullifies his only strength (low post game) by getting moronic fouls and spending all of his time on the bench. I thought that we did good getting Curry (obviously not at the expense of one of the top few picks in the draft) and recognize his potential but the bottom line is that he will never live up to it. You do not suddenly learn how to rebound, how to hustle or how to play defense... it does not happen.

    So what do we do... what do we hope for? We hope that we get some players in here that buy into Larry's system or we lose Larry and find someone that can get the most out of the players that we do have... but one of those things has to give first.

    For the rest of this season... put some guys out there on the floor that are willing to leave it all out there. It amazes me that Curry is getting touted so highly and that Q is an afterthought because there are times it seems that Q is the only guy on the floor playing and I am not even a fan of his... but he has earned my respect, watch his defense when his man does not have the ball. Put Jalen on the floor at PG, Woods at SG, Q at SF, Lee at PF and Frye at C... bring Lee, Malik and Nate off of the bench and we would not win any games but we would not be embarrassed by lack of effort, whiining, crying or soft-play. At least those guys would leave it on the floor each night.

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    I think taylorjohn and hometheaterguy have put it well regarding Isiah's ineptness. Regarding Brown....I'll agree with what Taylorjohn says....I think a true "elite" coach will take what he has and work with it, and not try to make the players conform to him. Clearly in this case, Brown is not making the most of what he has....he's trying to take a team that 's probably better off running, and making them a halfcourt team. He needs to open his eyes and start doing a better job

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    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    I am now convenced that the majority of people posting on this topic truily do not know what the hell they are talking about.

    I never liked Houston. It was a poor choice to build a team around a streaky shooter. I dont like the blamn game. This is a new team, the majority of the guys that are supose to be stand out players are here for the first time. I really wish every one would stop b!tching. Fire this guy, fire that guy gets us no where. This year Isiah has done a decent job working around what's he's got. (which isn't much) I mean who did he trade last year that shouldn't have been traded? Does anyone really think Tim Thomas could help us. Poor player performance is not a direct indication of poor management.

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    Don, you say that you are convinced that there are people posting that do not know what they are talking about but you do not post anything specific and then cut and paste your response from one that you made on another thread.

    Who should not have been trade? I will address that in a sec but will preface it by saying you do not make trades just to trade because it affects team chemistry... point and case is that last year's team was more competitive than this year's team with much less talent.

    Trades that should not have been made? Tough to say when you look at them individually but when taken together it is a lot easier to see that we just don't have a plan. Why bring in Jerome James and then bring in Eddy Curry and Channing Frye? Jerome James was not a waste of our mid level exception? Fact of the matter is that he is a waste and then some. You hear Larry complaining about not having a true PG because the guys we have are scorers and are much better suited at the 2 spot (Nate, Steph, Jamal and Jalen Rose) and then we bring in Francis??? It just makes no sense. We bring in Francis and make sure that we keep Jamal and Nate so that we officially have a starting line-up of the guards that Larry hates (Jamal, Jalen, Steph, Francis and Nate). We piece together a team of flashy scorers (no outside shooter or defense) and then get a coach that wants to play defense and a methodical offense???? You get a coach that wants veterans and we get three first round picks???

    I am not calling for anyone to be fired but the bottom line is that we are mismatched in every way... the GM-Coach-Players-Scheme and that falls on the GM period because that is hi job. I like Isiag, I like Larry... I like Steph... but the bottom line is that something has to give. We keep reading about players having a tough time adjusting to Brown but Brown is having a tougher time adjusting to the players (you play the cards you are dealt... that goes for anything in life).

    I agree that there are a lot of wild posts on here but yours ranks right up there with the Isiah is getting the job done comment. Sure, he is collecting some talent but it is going nowhere... there has to be a plan... a short term plan and a long term plan but we have neither. LB is not playing guys for the future (look at Frye's minutes... and the absence of Lee). What is it that we are doing? As soon as it looks like we have a plan we come up with another bizarre twist (like Francis). Anyone can get up there and spend money... take on horrible contracts. Do not give Isiah credit for getting players that other teams did not want, my grandma can do that. We did not get Francis for so little because Isiah is shrewd or a genius, we got him because we have an owner that does not care where his money goes. If I ran my business the way the Knicks do then I would be bankrupt in a heartbeat.

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    Originally Posted by donchris
    I am now convenced that the majority of people posting on this topic truily do not know what the hell they are talking about.

    I never liked Houston. It was a poor choice to build a team around a streaky shooter. I dont like the blamn game. This is a new team, the majority of the guys that are supose to be stand out players are here for the first time. I really wish every one would stop b!tching. Fire this guy, fire that guy gets us no where. This year Isiah has done a decent job working around what's he's got. (which isn't much) I mean who did he trade last year that shouldn't have been traded? Does anyone really think Tim Thomas could help us. Poor player performance is not a direct indication of poor management.
    Are you serious? Isiah has done a "decent" job?? Tell me in all of Isiah's time here, what has he done to tell you that he has the slighest clue about what he's doing? He keeps talking about a plan....what plan? I can count at least 3 changes in direction he's tried since getting here, and in this season alone he's changed directons at least twice....what kind of decent job is that? If you have a plan in place, you see it through and not make dumb moves out of desperation. From the start this man was unqualified for this job and he's done nothing but show that.

    The knicks were capped out when Isiah got here, and now he's taken that and made it such that this team will have caproom no earlier than 2009 or so. He's traded away next yr's potential top 5 pick (what moron makes that pick unprotected??) and given the Bulls the option to flip flop picks the year after (again...what moron does this?). Eddy Curry has potential, but is he worth two yrs worth of good picks?? No way!

    This past offseason he traded away Kurt Thomas for an injured and ineffective QRich. Last season he traded away Nazr Mohammed, only weeks after he was boasting about how great Nazr is and how he's coming into his own and how the team was starting to become the 'young and athletic' team Isiah invisioned. I guess Isiah figured he'd help the Spurs out by giving them a key piece for their title run...I mean the guy seems to be so good at helping the rest of the leage. And in return we get Malik Rose who absolutely is useless on a team like this (not exactly 'young and atheltic' either). Let's not even bring up the signing of Crawford (overrated) and Jerome James (grossly overrated).

    As far as poor performance and it's correlation to management....it's management's JOB to get guys that can perform...not keep adding on guys that don't. Do you think it's a coincidence that this team sucks and none of the guys are performing?

    We need a new GM with a clue to come in here and implement an actual plan and direction for this team. Who are they going to hire? Well Bryan Colangelo would have been a start but he's gone. But in general I doubt there is anyone as dumb as Isiah out ther so anyone should be an improvement.

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    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RMK-NYK
    Originally Posted by donchris
    I am now convenced that the majority of people posting on this topic truily do not know what the hell they are talking about.

    I never liked Houston. It was a poor choice to build a team around a streaky shooter. I dont like the blamn game. This is a new team, the majority of the guys that are supose to be stand out players are here for the first time. I really wish every one would stop b!tching. Fire this guy, fire that guy gets us no where. This year Isiah has done a decent job working around what's he's got. (which isn't much) I mean who did he trade last year that shouldn't have been traded? Does anyone really think Tim Thomas could help us. Poor player performance is not a direct indication of poor management.
    Are you serious? Isiah has done a "decent" job?? Tell me in all of Isiah's time here, what has he done to tell you that he has the slighest clue about what he's doing? He keeps talking about a plan....what plan? I can count at least 3 changes in direction he's tried since getting here, and in this season alone he's changed directons at least twice....what kind of decent job is that? If you have a plan in place, you see it through and not make dumb moves out of desperation. From the start this man was unqualified for this job and he's done nothing but show that.

    The knicks were capped out when Isiah got here, and now he's taken that and made it such that this team will have caproom no earlier than 2009 or so. He's traded away next yr's potential top 5 pick (what moron makes that pick unprotected??) and given the Bulls the option to flip flop picks the year after (again...what moron does this?). Eddy Curry has potential, but is he worth two yrs worth of good picks?? No way!

    This past offseason he traded away Kurt Thomas for an injured and ineffective QRich. Last season he traded away Nazr Mohammed, only weeks after he was boasting about how great Nazr is and how he's coming into his own and how the team was starting to become the 'young and athletic' team Isiah invisioned. I guess Isiah figured he'd help the Spurs out by giving them a key piece for their title run...I mean the guy seems to be so good at helping the rest of the leage. And in return we get Malik Rose who absolutely is useless on a team like this (not exactly 'young and atheltic' either). Let's not even bring up the signing of Crawford (overrated) and Jerome James (grossly overrated).

    As far as poor performance and it's correlation to management....it's management's JOB to get guys that can perform...not keep adding on guys that don't. Do you think it's a coincidence that this team sucks and none of the guys are performing?

    We need a new GM with a clue to come in here and implement an actual plan and direction for this team. Who are they going to hire? Well Bryan Colangelo would have been a start but he's gone. But in general I doubt there is anyone as dumb as Isiah out ther so anyone should be an improvement.
    Your comment makes very little sense. From the stand point of every NY fan at the begining of the season we would make the playoffs. We aquired Larry Brown and all of our Rookies. No one thought we'd be in the position that we are in now. So why wouldn't Isiah go after Eddie Curry? Hind sight is 20\20. If Isiah planned to be the worse team in the league then he really should be replaced, but that's not the case. So Eddie Curry or a #1 pick is an unfair comparison. As far as everything else, a gm or a coach can only planned on paper. We are less competitive and the players don't know each other because THEY ARE A NEW TEAM!!! Acutally I've noticed that most posts up here shaddow the NY Post. As if they know what the hell they are talking about. Here's a thought, how about some one post an original thought!

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    Are you Isiah's brother or PR man or something?? Do you know what GM's job is? His job is to implement a short and long term plan, put together a team that fits that plan, and hire a coach that buys into it all. Isiah has shown NONE of this. Can you please tell me how Jalen Rose and Steve Francis fit into this? And you totally miss my point on Curry....even before this season that dude was no where near worth an unprotected lotter pick! I can't even remember a team being so dumb as to do that in any trade previously. And not even next year's pick, but the year after that, the Bulls can swap with us if we have a higher pick! Are you going to tell me Eddy Curry is worth that?! I seriously doubt we even had that much competition for him, especially given his heart condition. It's not getting him that I have a problem with, it's the fact that we probably gave up 5 times more than we had to. I guess Isiah wanted to add the Bulls to his resume of rebuilding other teams. People want to also defend the Jerome James move because he would have been our center had we not gotten Curry...again that shows there is no plan in place, and it shows how reckless Isiah is with his decisions. Not to mention the fact that JAMES SUCKS! Even if we'd never gotten Curry, I'm positive James would still be riding the pine behind Jackie Butler. He was never worth the money we signed him with.

    As far as players not knowing each other...hmm...I wonder why that is? Isn't it a GM's job to put together a team of players that can potentially play together and then give them a chance to do so? Isiah has turned over the roster so many times since he came here that it's no wonder why the players never know each other!! I don't think the idiot realizes that team chemistry is as important as talent.

    As for this season and expectations...yeah coming in a lot of people had higher expectations due to the coach...and yeah he hasn't done a good job, nor have the players. However....do you think adding two more ballhogs (on a team that already has enough shoot first pass later players) really made sense? You haven't made one valid point to back up your hollow statement that Isiah is doing a decent job.

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