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Thread: LARRY IS AS MUCH TO BLAME AS ISIAH

  1. #16
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    I have to agree with RMK all of the way. His points are valid and supported by the facts of the situation. Don, you are just talking and there is no more of a point to what you are saying than there is to what Isiah is doing.

    There has to be a plan and when you say that you are convinced that LB is the right coach for this team I have to wonder what in the hell you are talking about. I agree that Larry Brown is a great coach and I love the Knicks. When you say right coach for "this team" though, what are you talking about? Because what team are you referring to? There are at least four different teams here... 1. The Players Team (they seem to be suited for a specific type of play... running and beating their individual man off of the dribble, capable ball handlers that can pass but look to shoot first... Marbury, Francis, Crawford, Jalen and Nate). 2. The Coach's Team (LB's idea of playing smart basketball with few turnovers, strong defense and unsellfish play). 3. The GM's Team (the team that Isiah thinks is like the one he and Joe Dumars or Walt Clyde and Earl the Pearl played for)... and then there is 4. The Real Team (the one that has a mixture of so many odd parts that it just doesn't fit any of the above team concepts. The one that cannot gel, is inexperienced and selfish, that does not play D and has no confidence.

    The point is that the GM is responsible for this because it is HIS responsibility to have sight of the big picture and to put all of the pieces together. Honestly, I like Larry... I even like Isiah because I think he believes he can do something... and I like most of our players. BUT.... it makes no differrence in the grand scheme of things if they are all operating in different realities. So when you say that LB is the right coach for this team it depends upon what you mean. LB is the perfect coach for his own version of a team but that is not what we have. There are a ton of coaches that could get more from this team of players right now than LB... but that does not matter if it does not end with a championship somewhere down the line. Our team has no identity and we will not win until it does. The question is... Can we get a single vision of "team" with the current Owner, GM, Coach and Group of Players??? It does not matter if you like all of those people, the answer is no because they all have different ideas of what the "team" is.

  2. #17
    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    This is why the process is called REBUILDING. It's very easy to look back and point out mistakes. Most people had higher expectations of Jerome James. Turns out that he's been a myserable failure and the move was not the best move at all. Now think back to the last summer. Kurt Thomas was the only Knicks Center and we needed shooters the likes of A.Houston at the time. So it made sense to pick up Richardson at the time. Richarson in, Thomas out so we needed a center. James performed well in the playoffs. On paper he looked like a good choice. If you understand what a GM's job is you'd know it's not a 1-900 see all out comes in life hotline. That's a bunch of B.S. Is Curry worth a #1 pick? I don't think so but many people seem to think Curry will emerge as a dominate force in the near future. The trade for him was necessary at the time. I support Isiah Thomas because I know the crap that was left for him to clean up and most of you didn't have a damn thing to say about it.

    Francis was not the best choice, he was the best option. We could have gone for K Mart and been in even deeper debt. The whole thing makes sense. Crawford, Steph, Fransic... All good trade bait for the summer. Key word again: REBUILDING
    It's funny how the fans think they know more than the experts. There are several examples of real people with high basket ball IQ's that believe picking up Steve Francis was the best move at the time. Pat Riley, Phil Jackson and Gregg Popivich have all come out stating that the Knicks now have a boat load of talent and trade options for the summer. But I suppose you all know more than they do.

  3. #18
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    On what paper did the Jerome James signing look like a good choice? And do you realize that aside from those playoff games, he's NEVER done anything in his career? And he's 30 yrs old....not exactly young and emerging. He clearly did NOT deserve that nice a deal and I'm sure GM's around the league were laughing and scratching their heads over that one, especially because I'm sure we had little competition for him. You said Kurt Thomas was traded because we needed a shooter....did you realize that QRich had back trouble, and it was so bad that I dont even think any company wanted to insure him. Not to mention he shot 38% from the field. That tradeoff of Thomas for QRich and James was horrendous from the outset. We traded the one defensive and rebounding force on the team, for two stiffs. BTW...as far as Curry is concerned, Isiah himself said he's not sure if Curry will ever emerge into anything. As a matter of fact, in Chicago (and I'll have you know that being out there the last few yrs I saw him play regularly) last year was his best year, and yet he was regularly not playing the 4th qtr because he'd tire out by then....looks like nothing has changed going into this year. Again...I won't knock getting...I knock how much we gave up for him....he will never be worth that much.

    And as far as trade bait for the summer...WHO WANTS THESE GUYS?? It's not just as simple as "Here these guys are talented, what will you give me?" Their contracts make them an albatross for any team. I'm sorry but you don't REBUILD by taking on more overpriced and longer term contracts. As far as KMart...at least he fills a need and I can make sense of that move...this one MAKES NO SENSE! Now we have 5 ballhogging PG's. Pat Riley said "They've turned a corner." A comment that makes no sense. I have no idea what Jackson and Popovich said so I dont know where you get that from.

  4. #19
    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RMK-NYK
    I think taylorjohn and hometheaterguy have put it well regarding Isiah's ineptness. Regarding Brown....I'll agree with what Taylorjohn says....I think a true "elite" coach will take what he has and work with it, and not try to make the players conform to him. Clearly in this case, Brown is not making the most of what he has....he's trying to take a team that 's probably better off running, and making them a halfcourt team. He needs to open his eyes and start doing a better job
    RMK-NYK let me ask you a question:
    If you bring in say, Phil Jackson to coach the Knicks... Do you ask him to abandon the triangle offense because the guards are not adjusting? Or, do you try to get Phil Jackson and his system that has won so many NBA rings, guards that can handle the triangle offense? If you ask a coach with a proven system to abandon that system, then why do you have that coach there in the first place? The reason he is so successful is his system and the GM’s ability to supply the players that buy into that system. Most NBA players (at least in my time) are able to adapt or adjust to a new system. It is the selfish player, the low IQ player that just goes in one mode and that’s all they know. Yes Brown has had like a 100 starting lineups but why do you think he is doing that? He is trying to find that right mix that can be consistent and cohesive. Funny enough, I understand why he is doing this!

  5. #20
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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    Originally Posted by RMK-NYK
    I think taylorjohn and hometheaterguy have put it well regarding Isiah's ineptness. Regarding Brown....I'll agree with what Taylorjohn says....I think a true "elite" coach will take what he has and work with it, and not try to make the players conform to him. Clearly in this case, Brown is not making the most of what he has....he's trying to take a team that 's probably better off running, and making them a halfcourt team. He needs to open his eyes and start doing a better job
    RMK-NYK let me ask you a question:
    If you bring in say, Phil Jackson to coach the Knicks... Do you ask him to abandon the triangle offense because the guards are not adjusting? Or, do you try to get Phil Jackson and his system that has won so many NBA rings, guards that can handle the triangle offense? If you ask a coach with a proven system to abandon that system, then why do you have that coach there in the first place? The reason he is so successful is his system and the BM’s ability to supply the players that buy into that system. Most NBA players (at least in my time) are able to adapt or adjust to a new system. It is the selfish player, the low IQ player that just goes in one mode and that’s all they know. Yes Brown has had like a 100 starting lineups but why do you think he is doing that? He is trying to find that right mix that can be consistent and cohesive. Funny enough, I understand why he is doing this!
    Good comparison, but Phil's system has worked in two different types of teams. One in Chicago where it was figureheaded by Jordan and Pippen, and two, in LA where it ran thru Shaq with Kobe as the other option. You have to figure there was some sort of adapting going on there on both sides.

    Pat Riley was all showtime in LA with the Lakers. He came to the Knicks, realized he didn't have the type of players to run and gun like those Lakers...instead he changed his approach to one of tough defense and a halfcourt offense which runs thru the big man in the middle. In both cases he was successful, and was within a game of a championship in NY.

    By this point in the season, Brown should have found at least some sort of mix. But I can't fully blame him when they've made two big trades in midseason, and he's got to keep figuring out how to make the guys blend. The thing is, the constant shifting, doesn't allow any of these guys the chance to get confident with each other and develop chemistry.

  6. #21
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    Hometheatre... I think that we all understand why he is doing this, it does not take a genius to figure out what LB wants the team to do. You make a great point about Phil and the triangle offense... I do not think Larry should change is coaching style because it has been so successful. The question is not whether the players can play because Marbury and Francis can play for sure... the question is whether we are all on the same page... and the answer is no we are not. No one would criticize the Triangle offense but they would question what was going on if we had no guards or SFs and then traded to get Shaq and Tim Duncan... that does not quite fit into the triangle offense.

    Isiah is heading in one direction while we all know where Larry Brown and his game plan is heading... and the players are stuck in the middle. No one wins like that. LB will not win without LB type players... and Isiah will not when by getting the biggest names available no matter if they are not great fits for the LB offense. The players will go crazy being brought in for their talents (Francis) and then told to play different games.

    If you are going to cook a great meal then the chef is important but no more so than the ingredients. Bottom Line!!!

  7. #22
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    ...and if the chef and the ingredients are not working or will not work then you ultimately blame the person responsible for hiring the chef and buying the ingredients without any consideration as to how well they would work together. If you do not make a change... if you stick with a chef that cannot use the ingredients that you bought then the owner of the restaurant is a fool because his food will suck and no one will eat it.

    It makes no difference if the chef is great and if the ingredients are great... what matters is what is made... and right now we are making nothing!!!!

  8. #23
    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    NO! You blamn no one. You focus on how to repair the situation not focus on who's to blamn. Further more every thing I added to this topic is 100% true. IF you want to validate my sources check prosports.com under knicks rumors. You can see Phil's comments in various news articles.

  9. #24
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    Originally Posted by donchris
    NO! You blamn no one. You focus on how to repair the situation not focus on who's to blamn. Further more every thing I added to this topic is 100% true. IF you want to validate my sources check prosports.com under knicks rumors. You can see Phil's comments in various news articles.
    So you let Isiah repair a situation he caused? (um...no thanks) I thought you said Isiah is doing a decent job and if that's the case then there can't really be anything to repair then right? BTW that website doesn't work. Anyways I'm done arguing this with you because clearly you work for Isiah so it's pointless.

  10. #25
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    LOL I still don't see what point you are making about any of it but I think RMK has a point... Are you Isiah's son? LMAO

  11. #26
    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    There's alot you dont see. You dont get rid of a GM in his second year when he's trying to repair a bad team and bitch about it when the team stays bad and the new players don't adjust to a new system! No I'm not Isiah's son but I have noticed that you and RMK tend to aggree with each other alot. So who's sucking who's t!tts!

  12. #27
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    No, we do not agre a lot and I do not even know the guy... we just both happen to agree with the fact that you do not know what you are talking about when you say that Isiah is doing a good job... there is not a basketball analyst anywhere that would agree with that assessment. Nuff said....

  13. #28
    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    Wrong again. I'm saying you cant judge a GM by2 yrs with a team that sucks. All of the real rebuilding started this year. How so? New Coach new team.

  14. #29
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    Everyone has made great points. You know, my opinion changes after about every game. My problem with Larry is that I don't see any sense of urgency from him, and this idea of starting players on the road in their home town this late in the season makes me think that he is not taking this situation that seriously. It is as if he is just fooling around with the lineup until he gets guys he wants to play with next year. I don't think it is fair to make him change his style of coaching, but if he wants to win, then I feel he should compromise a little bit. Tom Coughlin had an MO as being a drill sergeant with the Giants, and after his first season he did adjust his coaching style to his players. Larry knows that the team must be built to suit him, that's why it looks like to me he doesn't give a damn about the outcomes of the games. I don't think that that is fair to the fans. I could be wrong, though..But if I was ownership, I would be inclined to fire BOTH Brown and Thomas for this and start over from scratch. If the Knicks win the majority of their games to finish the season, I would give Zeke and Brown a chance to run the team next year. If they get worse, one of them will definitely have to go.

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    First off I dont even know Taylorjohn but I'm sure you know Isiah really well.

    Either that or you and Dolan are drinking the same Koolaid now. By the end of this year Isiah will have been here for 2.5 seasons. In that time he's gone thru 4 coaches, overhauled the roster numerous times, made multiple trades, piled on payroll, put this team in cap hell till 2009, and traded away our potential future by giving away a potential top 5 pick in this draft, and given the bulls a chance to take our pick the following year if they want it. And you're telling me after all that, that the rebuilding JUST BEGAN NOW??? So what has he been doing for all this time?? And if you're gonna tell me he was waiting for Brown, then why'd he construct a roster that makes Brown wanna puke?? You and Dolan are both out of your minds.

    Oh and BTW...you don't rebuild by trading away two yrs worth of possibly prime draft choices, and adding on payroll to the point where you'll never sign anyone. That's how you build a disaster...not a team.

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