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Thread: Brown Threatens Knick Shakeup

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    Default Brown Threatens Knick Shakeup

    Friday, March 24, 2006
    BY DAVID WALDSTEIN
    Star-Ledger Staff

    A big shakeup in the Knicks lineup could be coming soon.

    Having already benched high-priced veterans Steve Francis and Jalen Rose for the final three quarters of Wednesday's loss to the Magic, a disgusted Larry Brown said he might just turn to the younger players on the team now.

    "Thinking about it," he said after the game. "It's tough now with Channing (Frye) being out. (And) some of our young guys weren't up to par. There weren't a lot of pluses out there. But yeah, that's a strong possibility. Might as well do that."

    Brown was as angry as he has been in a long time at the Knicks' lack of effort Wednesday, and said he was concerned the players might pack it in and quit over the final 15 games of the season.

    "Never thought I would be," he said. "But there have been a lot of surprises for me this year."

    All of them bad.

    On Wednesday Brown grew irritated and defensive when he was repeatedly asked after the loss about why he didn't put Francis and Rose back in the game after the first quarter. He said reporters should get used to unusual substitution patterns from now on. He also dismissed queries about why Francis and Rose didn't play by wondering why no one ever asks why Nate Robinson or Jamal Crawford or Qyntel Woods, for instance, might not play on a given night.

    "You're going to ask me why I don't play Nate, or why I don't play Jamal, or why I don't play Qyntel?" he said. "Every game I'm going to get the same thing from you guys. So, get used to it. We've got a lot of people. There's going to be a lot of times where you say, why didn't I play him? and I'm going to give the same response."

    With Brown this season, there is no telling who might play and who might not. He has used 39 different starting lineups, two shy of the record set by the 1970-71 Warriors. Whether because of injuries, inconsistent performances, auditions or foul trouble, Brown has changed his substitution patterns all year. Sometimes a player will be on the floor for 38 minutes, and the next night he might play six minutes.

    Francis and Rose said they were not going to complain about the situation, although Francis has already said if he's not starting and being given a prominent role next year, it would be "good to go in another direction."

    Rose was clearly upset after Wednesday's loss. But while speaking in low, measured tones, he vowed to be a professional and not cause problems.

    "Everybody wants to play," he said. "Everybody wants to contribute. If you've been around the block as many years as I have, whether fortunately or unfortunately, you kind of expect anything and have to be ready to deal with it. That's how I'm going to handle this."

    Rose made sure to point out the Knicks were awful before he got there, and he knew what he was getting into when he was traded to the Knicks early last month.

    "Obviously, we're in a situation where we were struggling when I got here," he said, "and I just made up my mind, regardless of what happened, I was going to do what I can when I got the opportunity to play. I would be a good influence to the guys, be a good teammate and try to finish up the season strong."

    Francis said playing time is out of his control.

    "I can't do anything about it," he said. "I'm not in a position to demand minutes because I didn't go though training camp with this team, so our practices aren't beginning-of-the-season practices where you get a lot done. So I really can't be too mad about it, except that we lost the game."

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    can you believe this effin' coach...he's ****in up da knicks

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    The shakeup will be when ur ass gets canned...
    Larry Brown sabotaged this season with the knicks.
    There is no way in hell that a team with talented individuals such as Marbury, JRose, Curry, Crawford, Francis, Q cannot even surpass 20 wins...

    Riley said that the knicks is so talented and so deep, they should not even have that record. For a him to make such an assumption, it shows that Brown has made a mockery of this team...

    Well at least one thing is out in the open now...Larry Brown is overrated... and now he's overpaid too lol

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    he ruined new york

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    I get nuts everytime I read that Brown ruined this team!!! What about Isiah... didn't he have a hand in this? Brown is his 3rd coach and there isn't any differnece in this team! This is a poorly matched team and that is it!! THis team is horrible and no coach would make it any better!

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    there was a HUGE upgrade in talent when Lenny coached as opposed to Larry's team.
    The knicks were 16/13 on Dec 2004 and then injuries happened like crazy costing the knicks the season.

    We got rid of TT, Kurt, Nazr
    Added Curry, Q, Qwoods, Frye, Nate, Lee, Jrose and Francis...

    1 + 1 does not add to 2 here.
    Even it was a mismatched team - our record should not have certainly been 19/50.....that is beyond acceptable.

    Larry Brown destroyed the confidence of all the players, screwed Isiah publicly and has been on Dolan's bad side for his constant venting and lashing criticism to the media...

    Larry is one conniving weasel. Look at what he said when he left Philly....Iverson is an ass and I cannot coach a bunch of *******s.

    Look at what he did in Detroit....The pistons are in finals and he is looking into the GM position with the Cavs. Then he steals money from Detroit's mgt by forcing a buyout, leading the Piston's owner - a reputable and distinguish individual to call LB a very bad person.



    In fact read this article posted on ESPN by Chris Broussard:

    I was as guilty as anyone. Last summer, when the Knicks were pursuing Larry Brown, I said on national TV that he was the best fit on the planet for Isiah Thomas' club. I also said Brown's brow-beating, micromanaging style was crucial to Detroit's success the past two years and that without him, the Pistons would not win the East (while that may yet prove true, it certainly won't be because of Brown's absence).

    I was not alone in my exaltation of Brown. In NBA.com's annual preseason survey of GMs, Brown was voted the best coach in the league, and only 15 percent of GMs thought Detroit would win the East without him. Most GMs actually thought Indiana would beat out the Pistons for the Central Division crown, and 73% gave the East to Miami.

    That makes me feel better about putting Brown on a pedestal, but as you might imagine, I've had a change of heart.

    Since hardly anyone else is willing to say it, I will: Brown is overrated.

    He's still a very good coach (historically speaking), but he's not the legendary genius he's been touted as the past two years. He's not in the class of Red Auerbach, Phil Jackson, Pat Riley and Gregg Popovich. And this year, he's been the worst coach in the league. By far.

    Brown's been so bad that it's tempting to think he's purposely sabotaging the season. I refuse to make that claim because I can't imagine anyone doing that, but I also can't imagine that he's truly as overmatched as he appears to be.

    When the Knicks hired Brown, one of his former players (a retired guy who had a long and productive NBA career) told me Brown was going to create a rift with his best player (Stephon Marbury) and break the Knicks down to rock bottom so that when he built them back up, he would look like a savior.

    Obviously, the first part of that prediction has come true, but even if Brown turns the Knicks into a playoff team next season, he won't look like a savior to me. I don't think the Knicks should be nearly as bad as he's made them this year.

    If Isiah Thomas had announced when he was hired that in two years, the Knicks would have Marbury, Steve Francis, Eddy Curry, Jalen Rose, Quentin Richardson, Jamal Crawford, Malik Rose and one of the league's top three or four rookies at power forward - all being coached by Larry Brown - New York would have gone bananas (in a good way).

    So for all those ripping Isiah, save a little thunder for the head coach.

    One highly-respected executive told me last week that "if anything, the Knicks have too much talent.'' He added that he can't understand the moves Brown's been making.

    But I am not basing my demotion of Brown on this season alone. While he's had great success all over, he's also had too many missteps to be a "legendary'' coach. People make a lot out of him turning San Antonio from a 21-win team his first season into a 56-win team the next ('89), but the addition of David Robinson had more to do with that resurrection than Brown.

    Then, in his fourth and final season in Indiana, Brown failed to get the Pacers into the playoffs. The next season, Larry Bird, who had never coached a game in his life, led those same Pacers to the conference finals.

    And of course, there were the 2004 Olympics. Brown was as bad then as he has been this season. I know that team was poorly put together, but it still had two MVPs (Allen Iverson and Tim Duncan) and the four best young players in the world in LeBron James, Amare Stoudemire, Dwyane Wade and Carmelo Anthony.

    Yet Brown hardly played the youngsters, even though Anthony was his best shooter and one of the few guys with extensive experience against a zone defense. James made something good happen every time he entered the game, yet he got few minutes.

    Why not press fullcourt when depth and athleticism are your major advantages? Why not double team Carlos Arroyo to take the ball out of his hands instead of letting him single-handedly lift Puerto Rico over Team USA?

    Even in Detroit, folks forget that Brown's Pistons had lost 7 of 8 games before trading for Rasheed Wallace. Detroit was already a two-time 50-win team that had made the conference finals under Rick Carlisle the year before Brown got there. When Joe Dumars added Rasheed to that club, it was lights out. They went 20-5 the rest of the regular season.

    But nobody knew at the time how good they were, so when the vastly underrated Pistons beat the mighty Lakers, who boasted four future Hall of Famers, in the 2004 Finals, the only explanation seemed to be that Brown had worked a coaching miracle.

    Never mind that Karl Malone was hurt, or that Gary Payton was a physical shell of himself and in a mental funk because of Phil Jackson's triangle. Never mind that Shaq and Kobe were feuding.

    That's when Brown went from being viewed as a very good coach to one of the top five of all-time.

    Perhaps the only good thing about this Knicks season is that it has brought Brown, and the rest of us, back to reality.

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    I think Brown really f***ed up the knicks when he pushed isiah to trade ariza and hardawy for Francis. He gave away an expiring contract and a player who could become a tough defender at the sf position someday. He needs to admit that he was wrong and a marbury-francis backcourt will never work. Overpaid, undersized, and a lack of heart = FAILURE

    Knicks Suck, Too bad i've been a loyal fan since 94 cuz im really gettin tired of this sh*t. I cant even watch the games anymore. I hope something good happens on the night of the draft but until then I dont know how many more games i can watch

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    Originally Posted by Jazzyknicks33
    I think Brown really f***ed up the knicks when he pushed isiah to trade ariza and hardawy for Francis. He gave away an expiring contract and a player who could become a tough defender at the sf position someday. He needs to admit that he was wrong and a marbury-francis backcourt will never work. Overpaid, undersized, and a lack of heart = FAILURE

    Knicks Suck, Too bad i've been a loyal fan since 94 cuz im really gettin tired of this sh*t. I cant even watch the games anymore. I hope something good happens on the night of the draft but until then I dont know how many more games i can watch
    I feel you man... I used to post on this board everyday. But I just couldn't help but lose interest when i noticed the team did to. The enitre roster makes me sick. From Zeke, to Brown, to Dolan, to Curry, to Francis, and most of all to Marbury. Atleast next season cant get any worse

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    I used to be a big Brown fan...the longer I watch the season though, the more I think that the guy is either throwing the season so he could get his check and leave or he is angling for isiah to get fired. When I look at the talent on this team, we should be at least .500. It IS poorly contsructed, but so is 80% of the teams in the East. Outside of four teams , the whole conference is either incosistent or garbage. Bill Walton, Riley, Greg Anthony, Tim Legler, even that asswhole Peter Vecsey was right. Brown is inexplicably having the worst coaching season out of every coach in the league. He is doing s**t that doesn't even make sense. Benching Francis and Rose after he asked Isiah to trade our expiring contracts for them; starting guys off the street on the road just to play in their hometowns; all the different lineups; refusal to play zone defense when we have poor man to man defenders; restricting three point shooting(until recently) jerking around our rookies and the constant airing of dirty laundry to the press. he has been a primadonna, putting his agenda before the team because he lknows Dolan and Thomas are desperate and have no clout. He is getting away with murder. The only reason why Brown has not been fired is because of his resume...and the fact that isiah has already heen through three coaches. But Wilkens and Williams both had better records with less talent, even with the injuries. If I were Dolan, I would fire Thomas AND BROWN! F**k his four year deal!

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    Originally Posted by furious lord
    I used to be a big Brown fan...the longer I watch the season though, the more I think that the guy is either throwing the season so he could get his check and leave or he is angling for isiah to get fired. When I look at the talent on this team, we should be at least .500. It IS poorly contsructed, but so is 80% of the teams in the East. Outside of four teams , the whole conference is either incosistent or garbage. Bill Walton, Riley, Greg Anthony, Tim Legler, even that asswhole Peter Vecsey was right. Brown is inexplicably having the worst coaching season out of every coach in the league. He is doing s**t that doesn't even make sense. Benching Francis and Rose after he asked Isiah to trade our expiring contracts for them; starting guys off the street on the road just to play in their hometowns; all the different lineups; refusal to play zone defense when we have poor man to man defenders; restricting three point shooting(until recently) jerking around our rookies and the constant airing of dirty laundry to the press. he has been a primadonna, putting his agenda before the team because he lknows Dolan and Thomas are desperate and have no clout. He is getting away with murder. The only reason why Brown has not been fired is because of his resume...and the fact that isiah has already heen through three coaches. But Wilkens and Williams both had better records with less talent, even with the injuries. If I were Dolan, I would fire Thomas AND BROWN! F**k his four year deal!
    everything was great and those things is wwat i have been saying the while year...i agree wit u but not wit that fire thomas..thomas has put a great team together

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    the thing about larry brown and i have my mixed emotions when it comes to him but it seems like he has the right ideas, move the ball around, inside out game, perimeter defense, hustle, offensive rebounds, but instead of instilling it in his players he changes lineups and benches people i can almost guarentee more wins at least upwards of 10+ if we had a solid set lineup for a large portion of the team, you can have all the stars in the world but if they dont know their roles then it wont work. Team chemistry has such a big role on winning teams and when u never play with the same players every game your not going to win, but i feel we can be good with who we have if we work hard on D in the offseason and gain a trust for each player, its like playing with or against your best friend you know what he is going to do with the ball and you know where he going to be, and its just a step above the defense, im not givign up on larry but theres my two pennies.

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    i dont know why he is changing the lineup that often. but we all dont know what is going on behind closed doors. but what if the players are sabotaging him or show pooor effort in workouts? i coach a team as well and i even accept playing only with four giys if the rest shows poor effort. what if he had so many starting fives because he doesnt know who is worth starting?

    we should give him time. he has a four year contract. lets see what happens next year

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    Originally Posted by datruth
    everything was great and those things is wwat i have been saying the while year...i agree wit u but not wit that fire thomas..thomas has put a great team together
    How in the name of everything that is holy can you say that Thomas has put together a great team?!?! This is the most mismatched, “hodge podge” team I have ever seen!!! Marbury and Frances on the same team, in the same back court, is just insanity! Isiah's moves that brought in Malik Rose was nuts as well! Trading KVH is still one that I scratch my head over... Everyone likes to focus on Browns inconsistent starting lineup, but what is he supposed to do?? No matter what lineup he chooses doesn't produce anything whatsoever. The rookies make rookie mistakes, which is expected and OK if you are not trying to win now, and the vets are the most selfish one dimensional players to ever darn an NBA uniform! Our center is too soft and we do not have a 3! We have more over paid underachievers that any 3 teams combined, not to mention undersized! So tell me datruth, how is this team great! How is this a team that should be in the playoffs? Thomas has been horrible as a GM period!! He has drafted well but has set this team back 5 years! If he can not trade Marbury or Frances in the off season as well as use Taylor and/or Rose’s contract to bring in a NEEDED player, Isiah should be fired and probably will be!!!!

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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    Originally Posted by datruth
    everything was great and those things is wwat i have been saying the while year...i agree wit u but not wit that fire thomas..thomas has put a great team together
    How in the name of everything that is holy can you say that Thomas has put together a great team?!?! This is the most mismatched, “hodge podge” team I have ever seen!!! Marbury and Frances on the same team, in the same back court, is just insanity! Isiah's moves that brought in Malik Rose was nuts as well! Trading KVH is still one that I scratch my head over... Everyone likes to focus on Browns inconsistent starting lineup, but what is he supposed to do?? No matter what lineup he chooses doesn't produce anything whatsoever. The rookies make rookie mistakes, which is expected and OK if you are not trying to win now, and the vets are the most selfish one dimensional players to ever darn an NBA uniform! Our center is too soft and we do not have a 3! We have more over paid underachievers that any 3 teams combined, not to mention undersized! So tell me datruth, how is this team great! How is this a team that should be in the playoffs? Thomas has been horrible as a GM period!! He has drafted well but has set this team back 5 years! If he can not trade Marbury or Frances in the off season as well as use Taylor and/or Rose’s contract to bring in a NEEDED player, Isiah should be fired and probably will be!!!!
    First of all, it was larry browns bone head move to get francis...the malik rose trade got us david lee...KVH is a player stephon disliked but they were playing good...eddy curry is not soft, this is a player that hasnt played basketball in 6 months and u expect to him to come back the same, even jordan struggled when he came back from baseball....isiah has done a great job to bring a athletic team together which he intended to but larry got them playing half court(which is one th ereason why team USA lost, doing plays for a team like dat)..the only move i dont like from isiah is him bringing in these coaches especially larry brown

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    First of all, it was larry browns bone head move to get francis...the malik rose trade got us david lee...KVH is a player stephon disliked but they were playing good...eddy curry is not soft, this is a player that hasnt played basketball in 6 months and u expect to him to come back the same, even jordan struggled when he came back from baseball....isiah has done a great job to bring a athletic team together which he intended to but larry got them playing half court(which is one th ereason why team USA lost, doing plays for a team like dat)..the only move i dont like from isiah is him bringing in these coaches especially larry brown


    I agree with you for the most part. Isiah came into an impossible situation, but he has made the team younger and more athletic, but you cant leave out the signing of Jerome James when you're talking about bad moves. Kurt Thomas is getting older, it was a good deal to get Q and Nate for him and I do feel Curry will get a lot better but it all comes down to the fact that the knicks weren't ready for a coach like LB and the should've just stuck with herb

    Bring Back Herb Williams, he's more

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