I believe a lot of Marbury’s lack of scoring has to be put on Larry Brown. I am not nor have I ever been a fan of Larry Brown, so I know my opinion will appear tainted. There were games last year when Steph was benched the entire 4th quarter. He was constantly called out by Brown in the papers. He was basically shown that he was not wanted on the Knicks by Brown. All of these things will play a part in your game, with some players. AI dealt with the same thing but proved to able to blow Brown off and play his game. I believe Steph is a little more thin-skinned than AI, so was unable to not let it affect his play.
And, of course he had some bad shooting games, as well.
Jim, you and I both know Steph is capable of being among the league leaders in scoring. We also know that ANY player can have an off year, and has! With all due respect, it’s a little simplistic to say he missed a lot of lay-ups. You want him to go to the basket hard, it’s the cornerstone of his game. It enables him to get opposing guards in foul trouble, which leads to all sorts of good things. The Knicks, as a team, lacked off the ball movement, leaving Steph not much of a choice but to create his own shot. I agree he is a selfish player, but do you honestly think he took tough shot instead of passing to wide open teammates? Nobody lasts in the NBA as long as he has doing those type of things. Add to that the complete confusion of the Knicks as to their roles, and you have the makings of a disastrous season. I think you’ll see the difference this year, in ALL the Knicks!
HTG, although I scratched a hole in my head when Isiah made the Francis trade (alas, giving up Trevor Ariza), I can only hope he may have had the Dallas Solution in mind: overload at one position and use the surplus to get what you need in other areas. Plus, by the time he made the trade, the writing was on the wall as far as the season was concerned. The trade was looked upon the same as the Van Exel trade a few years ago in Dallas. Only Dallas was winning, so the criticism was a little different.
I don’t think we’ve seen the end of this story. If Mardy Collins turns out to be the pure #1 the Knicks need, he will be the steal of the draft and Isiah will be a genius! I like Isiah, but I don’t think he’s a genius.
Actually, I have never thought "Starbury" was a premier scorer in the NBA. I'm not a Steph historian, but he has always struck me a streak scorer. Either he will light you up for 35 or have an off night for 12, not much middle ground. Maybe I'm wrong there, but you can't ignore how much better every team that has unloaded him has gotten. To me the guy is just a legend in his own mind. I'm not a native New Yorker, so I don't have that history with him, but I think him coming home was the only way you sell that fat contract. The point is with only 23 wins, there is enough blame to go around from coach to gm to star player.
Well if you're going to blame starbury, then you have to blame, JC, and Q, and Eddy Curry, and Channing Frye and so on and so on. It is never one players fault when a team loses and it is never one player's credit when he wins a game. It's in the unwritten basketball bible...it is what it is. You can never say that a team is bad because of one player, it's just not fair. Yes Isiah had some blame, yes james dolan to a certain extent has some blame, but LB handled the situation the worst. The roster definitely had talent, it just needed some guidance. LB not only set back our rookies confidence a lil bit, he also embarassed the organization and starbury. And yes marbury is a scoring machine, if you tell him to just put the ball in the whole he will be in the top 7 scorers in the league...guaranteed. He can be one of the most dominating scorers in the game if given the opportunity like in the past
I have supported Brown, but I was never a Brown guy he was always the enemy to me. I still see him on the Pacers bench in all those Knicks Pacer epics! Still, you can't deny his track record! That is why Isiah has to be accountable for the failure. He did not match the right coach to the current players. When you bring in a coach that has a system, I feel it is unfair to ask him to deviate from that. That is what has made that coach successful. Look at any of the elite coaches, when they move to another team they also bring along their system and philosphies. Riley, on the other hand was able to adapt because his strenght wasn't in his system but more in his relationships with his players. His ability to make a player believe in himself and play beyond their skill set. Still, he traded away players that he felt were a detrament to what he was preaching. He also had a structure belief and he made sure he got what he needed. Like when he traded for Morning the minute he landed in Miami. Brown is a defense first coach and Isiah should have brought in a few pieces that he needed to make his system work.Originally Posted by Finesse
I told my self I was going to leave this subject alone but I find my self drawn back to it. Jim's got a point. I don't agree with it but there are a lot of people that do. Coming from a guy that is not a die hard Marbury fan but a die hard Knicks fan I can tell you that Marbury is one of those guys that has a bum rap. He does not fit the mold of traditional point guards so that makes him a ballhog. I believe this to be a crock of.... Although most media so called sports journalist will tell you other wise. Putting aside last season, Marbury's game is solid. His average is up in the 20's so he is a consistant scorer. Jim I think a better arguement would be that we need a traditional point guard, not that Marbury can't score. I don't think most of the Starbury fans would have a response to you if you said, Baren Davis is a better traditional point guard. But we can't take every thing away from him.
I try to get out but the pull me Back in!
The knicks are truly 1 of the best teams in da east. the only reason the knicks struggled last season was because of larry brown. larry wasnt utalizing da players properly, instead of playing 2 da players strentghs we ended up playing "THE RIGHT WAY". lets be realistic with the roster we have now there is no way we can play the right way. the only way we have a chance of winning is if we play like da phoenix suns. then we will finally have a winning team N das werd cuz best beleive da.
Exactly...like what I said all along, LB is a good coach but his past coaching rep didn't do jack for us! He didn't do nothing but hurt I rookies progress and angered most of our vets and CEOs by the way he handled his numerous situations in the media like a little grade school kid. Also, by changing the lineup 40+, mishandling the players in the media, playing a half-court offense with a full court team, benching our rookies when they were making progress...I don't need to say anymore about LB to say his was the problem...jus see when our wins almost double from last year and starbury rises to his all-star status again...and then maybe just maybe the IT and starbury haters will be laid to rest...
Let me ask you this: What did the players do to help Brown put in a steady starting 5? What everyone seems to forget is, when they went on some small wining streaks, Brown left the lineup alone. He changed the lineup so many times because he couldn't find a staring 5 that would stay consistant. I know you are going to say they weren't consistant because of the changes, but it is the old addage, what came first the chicken or the egg. Brown started the season with 5 guys, after so many games that didn't work out, so he made some changes, etc... The coach can only take so much of the blame here, what about the very overpaid players! Isn't there some accountability?? Brown is not causing crawford to put up a 5 for 25 night!! Brown is not making the players not rebound, he is not making them mis free throws! As far as the rookies are concerned, Brown is among most of the elite coaches that do not play their rookies alot. Vangundy and Riley were the same with rookies.Originally Posted by The 1 and Only
Forget his track record...the man was not fit for our roster. He doesn't deserve a second chance after the things he did and the right thing happened...LB was fired. So now it's sink or swim for isiah...and I'm seeing some sunshine and the clouds are going away so hopefully he'll take us out of this dark hole we call rock bottom...
To be honest I would have given Larry Brown another year to turn it around. At least that was how I felt at the end of the season. But players don't get better by sitting on the bench. They get better by playing and having consistant time to play. The fact is out of all of the coachs you mentions none of them ever had 40 different line ups in one season. We can't excuse poor coaching because of past experience. Larry Brown just wrote the blueprint on how NOT to coach with his poor performance last season. You want to talk about acountability, ok, talk about holding Brown acountable for bashing his players in the media. Talk about how David Lee barely got any playing time and he was one of the most consistant of last years rookies. Talk about the former coaches demands of the point guard to pass first, that is until no one else stepped up on the offensive side and he bashed the point guard for not scoring, or being more aggressive. But no one wants to talk about that. They just want to talk about firing Isiah and how Marbury's a ballhog. May be Isiah did a horrible job picking players and may be the Knicks need Steve Nash or Baron Davis to win a championship, but right now we don't have Nash or Davis nor do we have the resources to get them. But we do have a point guard that wants to be here and players that want to play for Isiah so lets see what they can do.
There is nothing you can say that can justify the way LB coached last year.Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
1. Benched the rookies during productive parts of the game
2. Bashed vets and rookies in the media
3. Goes behind Isiah's back to neogotiate trades
4. Changed the lineup 40+ times
5. Argues with management, the main reason for his firing
6. He won us 23 games with alot of talent on the roster, unguided but talented
And there might be other stuff that I forgot but if anyone can justify ALL of these shortcomings and make it reasonable with reasoning and backing it up with facts then it will be greatly appreciated and you're right the coach can only take so much blame but that is the same with success...when he took the 76ers to the championship Dikembe was having an all-star year (all three years avg a double double) AI is avg 31 ppg and tyrone hill is avg 10 ppg and 9 rpg and the role players were outstanding and speak for themself. SO...if you want to give credit to LB's track record...don't be a hippocrate and switch the fault to the players when he doesn't win because in this case...last season was 90% his fault and the countless situations could have been handled alot better...
HTG, you make a good point on Isiah hiring a guy not matching his players’ game. But he hired Larry Brown!! We all knew when he got hired that this team was not suited to his style of coaching. But it was LARRY BROWN!! If anybody could make this team click, it was him!! Love him or hate him (I would be the latter), this IS a Hall of Fame coach. We needed LB to work some magic with these guys like you’d hope a Hall of Fame coach could. I just felt he should have been more flexible in his approach when it came to the players he had. The guy has been around basketball for a lot of years, surely he could have adapted to the talent he inherited. In fact, I know he could. He just refused to, and that to me is just wrong.
I agree that Isiah made a mistake with LB, but LB knew where he was going and what waited for him there, which makes the stunts he pulled on our franchise just plain criminal! If what he did was a crime, it’d be premeditated! A pat on the back to our young guys from LB would’ve made them want to die for him, but he shunned them. Regardless of all the accolades he’ll get (and deservedly so), last season should be the ball going through Bill Buckner’s legs for Larry Frontrunner, it should be what he is remembered for from now on!!
I have one question what is a true point guard? Marbury averages 20 points and 8 assists per game. Thats right up there or better than the "elite" point guards in the league. Last season was just terrible but he cant be blamed for that. Personally i would love to see Marbury retire as a Knick.