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Thread: Marbury: I want to die a Knick

  1. #166
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    Originally Posted by The 1 and Only
    Because most guards who play under larry brown aren't as talented as starbury in the scoring department...just check out larry brown's roster in the past for yourself and I guarantee you, you won't find a more talented PG than starbury...ESPECIALLY in the scoring department. I think Isiah trusts Marbury for the leader role...it's not like he refused it in the past and the times he didn't want the jumpers in the clutch this past season was because LB always benched him in the 4th, so no one can use that stupid excuse...
    Allen Iverson is more talented in the scoring department. That was an easy one. If isiah trusts him so much for the leader role, why did he declare himself the leader of the team on the steven a show? He benched himself in games when he wouldn't D up.

  2. #167
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    Originally Posted by Finesse
    I can’t speak for those other guys, but I definitely have something against Larry Frontrunner! Any true Knick fan should!! This guy intentionally sabotaged the Knicks season. I don’t care how you choose to look at last season, there is no excuse for the things he did. From proposing trades he knew Isiah didn’t want to make to trashing players in the papers, this guy should not only not be paid for the remainder of his contract, he should be banned from coaching in the NBA! If he worked for a corporation as a ‘civilian’, so to speak, he’d be fired and possibly sued or even brought up on charges!! What he did was an affront to basketball on the scale of the Pete Rose situation!! I’m getting a little tired of supposed Knick fans sticking up for this bum. Isiah just fired him, he should have whooped his ass!! He, being a future Hall of Fame coach and a revered and respected coach, could have done irreparable damage to the psyches of our young, developing players. If he gets another dime from the Knicks it would be a travesty of justice!!
    I said I wouldn’t question the loyalty of other Knick fans, but enough is enough!!
    Jim, you say he left the Tar Heels high and dry, what does that say to you? I wouldn’t pay $200 for a league pass to see the Knicks, either, but my reasons are different than yours: I don’t have it!! I don’t look at the Knicks to see them get beat, I look for signs that the team is progressing and that the young players are developing. Maybe you should get a league pass, in fact you should try to get tape of every game the Knicks played last year and you’d see what a hack Larry Frontrunner really is!! You’d also see the skills of the players you malign so much, especially Marbury. Marbury is a selfish player in the mode of AI. His worth to any team is his selfishness. I’ll assume the ‘kcchief’ in your handle belies that you live in Missouri or Kansas. If you rely on Sports Center for information on the goings on with the Knicks, then that may explain your obvious lack of knowledge concerning this young, TALENTED team. Larry Frontrunner is not old school, he’s old fool!!
    So i take it you believe the guy who was quoted saying that he would "lie" to the media and fans at times. You really think that LB wanted francis and j rose. Are you kidding??? Those 2 guys just scream out "Larry Brown type of player". Those moves have isiah's fingerprints all over them.

    ....If marbury is so talented, why can't he lead a team to the second round of the playoffs? All i hear about here is how talented he is. In my opinion him and AI are pretty much the same player talent wise. Why could AI co-exsist with brown and not marbury, Why has AI taken a team less talented than the one that marbury played on in phoenix to the finals???



    Marbury - million dollar talent, 10 cent head.

  3. #168
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    Well I'm in limbo with that comment...AI definitely averages more points but he also has a career avg of 23 shot attempts a game compared to Starbury's 17 shot attempts. And starbury's career scoring avg is 20.2 and AI's is 28 ppg and starbury has better percentages in FG%, 3pt%, and FT%. But I'm not arguing that...AI is definitely a better proven scorer but I think if steph was given an opportunity to shoot 20+ shots a game then he would be up there with AI. In past interviews he said he didn't want to put pressure on players including is captain to muster up a winning season so he can keep his job. You realize that he hasn't mentioned much of starbury this whole offseason and if he did he included other people. The spotlight is all on IT and Starbury to do big things and in saying that...he doesn't want to put all the pressure on his star captain and leading scorer. And he didn't bench himself...LB took him out, that's all we know...you don't know the reason just as much as I don't know...so we really can't argue that...

  4. #169
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    And AI and starbury are ALMOST the same player but like what I said basketball is mostly a mental game. It's the way you approach the game that provides success in the future. AI apporached LB differently than Starbury...they play alike but they don't act nor think alike...and all I hear is why can't marbury take his team past the 2nd round...you ask The Matrix and Amare that...don't ask starbury...he put up great numbers in the playoffs, it was everybody else that didn't provide much help for him...

  5. #170
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    Originally Posted by The 1 and Only
    And AI and starbury are ALMOST the same player but like what I said basketball is mostly a mental game. It's the way you approach the game that provides success in the future. AI apporached LB differently than Starbury...they play alike but they don't act nor think alike...and all I hear is why can't marbury take his team past the 2nd round...you ask The Matrix and Amare that...don't ask starbury...he put up great numbers in the playoffs, it was everybody else that didn't provide much help for him...
    Putting up great numbers doesn't do it for me. Winning does it. There are plenty of players throughout sports that put up great numbers, bbut couldnt find a championship with a map. Point guards are supposed to make the guys around them better.

    AI approached LB differently than marbury (i refuse to call him starbury), he put the team first, didnt take personally everything LB said about him, and turned into a league MVP and better ballplayer.

    The fact that they are pretty much the same player proves my point, when you look at the end result with their dealings with larry brown. It's real easy to say which player has a winners mentality and the other has a loser's mentality.

  6. #171
    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by The 1 and Only
    There is nothing you can say that can justify the way LB coached last year.
    1. Benched the rookies during productive parts of the game
    2. Bashed vets and rookies in the media
    3. Goes behind Isiah's back to neogotiate trades
    4. Changed the lineup 40+ times
    5. Argues with management, the main reason for his firing
    6. He won us 23 games with alot of talent on the roster, unguided but talented
    And there might be other stuff that I forgot but if anyone can justify ALL of these shortcomings and make it reasonable with reasoning and backing it up with facts then it will be greatly appreciated and you're right the coach can only take so much blame but that is the same with success...when he took the 76ers to the championship Dikembe was having an all-star year (all three years avg a double double) AI is avg 31 ppg and tyrone hill is avg 10 ppg and 9 rpg and the role players were outstanding and speak for themself. SO...if you want to give credit to LB's track record...don't be a hippocrate and switch the fault to the players when he doesn't win because in this case...last season was 90% his fault and the countless situations could have been handled alot better...

    Answers:
    1) I guess Brown felt that during productive times veterans should be playing to keep production moving forward. Rookies make mistakes and I am guessing that he was more concerned about trying to get a W instead of getting some playing time for a rookie.
    2) Riley and VanGundy used the media to get messages to their players. This is a tactic that is used by many coaches.
    3) That is the claims by Isiah and Dolan and Brown has not made any statements about this so I can not comment on it. I watched that joke on MSG as well and I noticed that neither Isiah or Dolan took on any of the blaim for the season. It is easy to dance on someone's grave!
    4) I agree that 40 lineup changes is absurd but I also know what I saw and I saw a team that gave up well before the end of the season. Brown was desperate to get a string of wins together and I also think he felt the presure form the media as well.
    5) Again, this is what was said by tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber.
    6) I do not agree that this team, as a whole is that talented. There are players with skills but this roster is so patched up with styles that conflict with eachother that I doubt that any coach would have done a whole lot better. I bet you guys anything, that Isiah is fired by mid season! I predict that this team, by the all star break will fire Isiah because of the record. Brown tried to implement his system and the players resisted because they didn't like the system. That is like me going to a new job and refusing to abide by the rules of my boss because I don't like them.

    I agree that the coach can only take on so much of blame and accolade. That the majority of the result is dictated by the players. A coach is like the icing on the cake, but if the coach has a system that is proven then I feel it can very much help a team to improve. He wanted everyone to take on a role and everyone wanted to be the man. Riley wrote a book and within the book he writes about the power of team being greater than the power of the 1 individual, no matter how good that player is. Chuck Daily was one of the toughest hard line coaches that there was. He had Rodman, Lambeer and other guys that were very hard nose, listen to him. No coach will ever get this team in line unless he steps back and lets the players basically do what they want, like street ball. If you feel that is the way for the Knicks, then God bless ya, I am not one of those guys. I think this team needs to be structured and controlled. I am sure that they will have a looser feel about them, but I also feel that they will only add about 10 wins over lastyear. I do not want mediocroty, I want greatness and this team will never achieve that. I want a team that can be a force, and this team will never be that, not with the current roster.

  7. #172
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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    Answers:
    1) I guess Brown felt that during productive times veterans should be playing to keep production moving forward. Rookies make mistakes and I am guessing that he was more concerned about trying to get a W instead of getting some playing time for a rookie.
    2) Riley and VanGundy used the media to get messages to their players. This is a tactic that is used by many coaches.
    3) That is the claims by Isiah and Dolan and Brown has not made any statements about this so I can not comment on it. I watched that joke on MSG as well and I noticed that neither Isiah or Dolan took on any of the blaim for the season. It is easy to dance on someone's grave!
    4) I agree that 40 lineup changes is absurd but I also know what I saw and I saw a team that gave up well before the end of the season. Brown was desperate to get a string of wins together and I also think he felt the presure form the media as well.
    5) Again, this is what was said by tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber.
    6) I do not agree that this team, as a whole is that talented. There are players with skills but this roster is so patched up with styles that conflict with eachother that I doubt that any coach would have done a whole lot better. I bet you guys anything, that Isiah is fired by mid season! I predict that this team, by the all star break will fire Isiah because of the record. Brown tried to implement his system and the players resisted because they didn't like the system. That is like me going to a new job and refusing to abide by the rules of my boss because I don't like them.

    I agree that the coach can only take on so much of blame and accolade. That the majority of the result is dictated by the players. A coach is like the icing on the cake, but if the coach has a system that is proven then I feel it can very much help a team to improve. He wanted everyone to take on a role and everyone wanted to be the man. Riley wrote a book and within the book he writes about the power of team being greater than the power of the 1 individual, no matter how good that player is. Chuck Daily was one of the toughest hard line coaches that there was. He had Rodman, Lambeer and other guys that were very hard nose, listen to him. No coach will ever get this team in line unless he steps back and lets the players basically do what they want, like street ball. If you feel that is the way for the Knicks, then God bless ya, I am not one of those guys. I think this team needs to be structured and controlled. I am sure that they will have a looser feel about them, but I also feel that they will only add about 10 wins over lastyear. I do not want mediocroty, I want greatness and this team will never achieve that. I want a team that can be a force, and this team will never be that, not with the current roster.
    I agree 100% - especially with #'s 3,5 & 6. Your last paragraph was on the money as well. The New York Knicks - where the inmates run the asylum

  8. #173
    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Protect ur picks Isiah
    I agree 100% - especially with #'s 3,5 & 6. Your last paragraph was on the money as well. The New York Knicks - where the inmates run the asylum
    Thank You!! You know, I think that everyone in this forum have 1 thing in common. We love the Knicks!! I also believe that everyone wants the same thing, a team that is fun to watch and can be a force. I am not asking for the Knicks to go to the championship every seaon, but I want them to be a force, we all want that as well. I also agree that Marbury is not the sole reason for loosing as well as Brown not being the sole reason. I actually put a large chunk of the responsibility on Isiah. Dolan is guilty of handing over money so freely with out anty clue but he trusts his GM. Maybe that was a bad business move but this fiasco falls on the shoulders on Isiah. He put together a hodge podge team and then brought in a coach that needs to be in control and matched that with players that want to do what they want to do. So, Isiah has made bad move after bad move! Dolan wouldn't hire a person to run cablevision if they had a track record of bankrupting companies by mismanaging funds and poor hiring practices. But, that is exactly what he did!! I think the Knicks will only improve when a GM comes in that has a proven track record, then let's that GM start tp put together a team that is cohesive and capable as working as a unit. Once that is in place, brings in an elite coach to take the org to the next level.

  9. #174
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    Originally Posted by liquid347
    I have one question what is a true point guard? Marbury averages 20 points and 8 assists per game. Thats right up there or better than the "elite" point guards in the league. Last season was just terrible but he cant be blamed for that. Personally i would love to see Marbury retire as a Knick.
    A true point guard brings the ball up the floor without turning it over and initiates the offense. A true PG plays defense. A true PG looks to get others involved before he looks to score. If you look up the definition of PG in the dictionary you will see a picture of a guy like Mark Jackson. A true PG makes his team better, not worse. A true PG is a team leader and has a higher understanding of the game, so therefore makes a better coaching candidate(see..Avery Johnson, Mo Cheeks, Billy Donovan...). A true PG is a team leader, not malcontent and lockeroom cancer.

  10. #175
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    To homethetheaterguy...
    1. You might be right...that could be a possiblity...I'll meet you on common ground on that one even though it wouldn't right to take out a player that's doing well for a vet, especially if we're losing when he does it.
    2. When did Riley and Van Gundy consistently bash his star players until the point he was provoked into a negative response?
    3. There has to be some truth to it...these allegations might be the reason he won't get paid his full contract. And LB didn't take complete blame either?! When somebody spills the milk it's always no one's fault...even when you are 65+ years old
    4. No excuses on this one...you can't justify this one...it doesn't take 40+ lineups...not only is this an All-time NBA record but it led us to our franchise low in wins. He had the whole training camp and preseason to get to know his players...NO EXCUSES
    5. Not a justified answer...and why would you argue with your GM and Owner? Is that the right thing to do? Is that what a hall of fame coach would do? He needs to ask himself...what would jesus do fo real because that was childish.
    6. So you don't believe a lineup such as PG Starbury SG Crawford SF Q-Rich PF Frye or Rose C Eddy Curry... is talented? hmmmm

    And no I don't believe that this team should go to a 'streetball' mentality...I just don't believe you hold a talent such as marbury or francis in a system that only limits their talent. We need a coach that can guide this young team and provide just enough freedom so that it's not detrimental. Last year was horrible for all of us, but if you were playing under brown...just double the fun. And greatness doesn't come in 2 years...it takes time to build greatness and starting with 23 wins isn't it. With our young core with the likes of starbury and francis...I like our chances...

  11. #176
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    Originally Posted by Protect ur picks Isiah
    Putting up great numbers doesn't do it for me. Winning does it. There are plenty of players throughout sports that put up great numbers, bbut couldnt find a championship with a map. Point guards are supposed to make the guys around them better.

    AI approached LB differently than marbury (i refuse to call him starbury), he put the team first, didnt take personally everything LB said about him, and turned into a league MVP and better ballplayer.

    The fact that they are pretty much the same player proves my point, when you look at the end result with their dealings with larry brown. It's real easy to say which player has a winners mentality and the other has a loser's mentality.
    nope nope nope...what proves my point is you're acting like AI and starbury think alike. And you're right putting up great numbers isn't great if you can't win but it depends who you are talking about...Patrick Ewing never won a championship but does that mean he wasn't a great player? Karl Malone and John Stockton also...but do you know why they didn't win championships? Because the lack of a supporting cast. For example...do we blame KG for the T-Wolves for not doing damage in the playoffs?? I think not! We blame the fact that their isn't enough of an effort from the supporting cast. Starbury in Phoenix is a good point to bring up...Joe Johnson was just blooming, he wasn't a 20 pt scorer yet and Amare didn't have a good post up game nor did he have a jumper...and the Matrix was just being The Matrix. There was no doubt that marbury had some 'help' but when your 'help' doesn't help do we still call them 'help'? But you are right about starbury shouldn't take things personal tho but like what I said, everybody takes things differently...only god can judge him on that. And it's not fair to compare each other's shortcomings from brown and saying that AI is a winner because he outlasted it. Even tho personally I think AI has more hunger than starbury.

  12. #177
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    Originally Posted by The 1 and Only
    nope nope nope...what proves my point is you're acting like AI and starbury think alike. And you're right putting up great numbers isn't great if you can't win but it depends who you are talking about...Patrick Ewing never won a championship but does that mean he wasn't a great player? Karl Malone and John Stockton also...but do you know why they didn't win championships? Because the lack of a supporting cast. For example...do we blame KG for the T-Wolves for not doing damage in the playoffs?? I think not! We blame the fact that their isn't enough of an effort from the supporting cast. Starbury in Phoenix is a good point to bring up...Joe Johnson was just blooming, he wasn't a 20 pt scorer yet and Amare didn't have a good post up game nor did he have a jumper...and the Matrix was just being The Matrix. There was no doubt that marbury had some 'help' but when your 'help' doesn't help do we still call them 'help'? But you are right about starbury shouldn't take things personal tho but like what I said, everybody takes things differently...only god can judge him on that. And it's not fair to compare each other's shortcomings from brown and saying that AI is a winner because he outlasted it. Even tho personally I think AI has more hunger than starbury.
    Ewing has been to 2 nba finals and past the 2nd round numerous times, as have stockton and malone, KG should get some blame - not much, but some blame for them getting past the 2nd round. Which is one more time than marbury has. He has been in the league approx 10 years and played for 4 teams. Is it bad luck that he couldnt get past the first round, is it a coincedence?

    You are right AI does have more hunger, more of a desire to win. Which is why he was able to deal better with LB. He isnt a primadonna. The fact that he does take thinks personally affects his game, the way he always has problems with teammates, and the fact he just doesnt put winning first cause if he did. Larry Brown would still be here.

    It's a frightning thing when a guy who has caused problems everywhere he has been and never won wins a power struggle with a coach who has coached 34 years and has had 3 losing seasons. That shows you there is something seriously wrong with the decision making for this franchise. It starts at the top with dolan and mills and trickles down to isiah. If the nhl didnt crash and burn the rangers would still be the same mess the knicks are today.

  13. #178
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    i love marburys game and i always try to support em but this year there is no excuse

  14. #179
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    I've stated my reasons and I'm not changing my mind...LB is mos def the problem

  15. #180
    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by The 1 and Only
    To homethetheaterguy...

    And no I don't believe that this team should go to a 'streetball' mentality...I just don't believe you hold a talent such as marbury or francis in a system that only limits their talent. We need a coach that can guide this young team and provide just enough freedom so that it's not detrimental. Last year was horrible for all of us, but if you were playing under brown...just double the fun. And greatness doesn't come in 2 years...it takes time to build greatness and starting with 23 wins isn't it. With our young core with the likes of starbury and francis...I like our chances...
    When did Riley and Van Gundy consistently bash his star players until the point he was provoked into a negative response?

    Riley and VanGundy, both when they were Knicks coaches, called out everyone at one time or another, to step up their game in the press. Both guys, when they coached the Knicks, have said negative things about the team to press and on radio talk shows.

    There has to be some truth to it...these allegations might be the reason he won't get paid his full contract. And LB didn't take complete blame either?! When somebody spills the milk it's always no one's fault...even when you are 65+ years old

    From what I understand, coaches talking to other teams personel about possible deals is not that uncommon. I heard that on The Mike and The Mad Dog show on air in NYC. That is where I got that information from. Also, yes Brown has to take some of the blame, I never said he wasn't accountable at all. My argument has always been that you guys seem to give the players a free pass and they are to blame as well. We all have seen in every sport that a digruntled player can make hell for his team. The Knicks orginazation did a poor job in supporting Larry Brown and letting the players know that he iss the boss and they need to listen to him or they will be shipped out to Atlanta or Portland as a punishment (lol). Really, they should have gotten LB's back. Again, he never found a formula that worked for him, and he experimented way too many times.

    He had the whole training camp and preseason to get to know his players...NO EXCUSES

    He did and he started the season with a set lineup. He made changes after they couldn't pull out a win within the first few weeks of the season.

    why would you argue with your GM and Owner? Is that the right thing to do? Is that what a hall of fame coach would do? He needs to ask himself...what would jesus do fo real because that was childish. And So you don't believe a lineup such as PG Starbury SG Crawford SF Q-Rich PF Frye or Rose C Eddy Curry... is talented? hmmmm

    I am not sure he did argue all the time with them, again that is what they are saying. Brown has a rep for being a tuff stubborn guy! Isiah knew that when he hired him. Isiah knew that he was tuff on his guys and didn't play rookies alot. This is not breaking news people, he is know for this. Brown is old school and he is set in his ways. Again, Isiah knew all of this and hired him. You can not bring in a guy knowing his ways and then complain when he acts like himself. Isiah is protecting Isiah. Brown, sat in a meeting with them and basicallly told the Knicks orginization that this roster will never go anywhere and if they wanted him to bring NY back to respectability, there needed to be a major roster revamp! You know what.... He is 100% right! PG Starbury SG Crawford SF Q-Rich PF Frye or Rose C Eddy Curry are all talented players but togther on the same roster they STINK!!!! Break them up and scatter them on different teams they will add to that roster. Frye, is still developing so he gets time to prove himself as well as Lee, Nate and the new rookies. Curry has to step up this year and start to be a force in the middle. If he has another sub par year he is a total bust! Crawford would be great with a run and gun team. If the Knicks turn into that (and God I hope not), he would fit. But you are forgetting that Frances will start not Crawford. Marbury..... Read all my posts since I joined this Forum. If Marbury was being paid 4-5 million a year, I would love him. He would be my sixth man. I would bring him off the bench with his energy and drive and start him at the 2 for some matchups. If he had a much lower salary, evey team would want him. Q-rich is another player that should come off the bench at this point in his career. At times he is tremendous but then his back acts up and he is a different player. J Rose will be traded.
    Oh, you forgot to mention the other super stars that Isiah picked up:

    Malik Rose, that dominate power forward that scares ever team when he rolls into town.

    Taylor, that versital scorer that can break down a D and cause havok in the paint.

    J James, that killer center who come into the game and bangs the boards and blocks shots.

    Q Woods (if he comes back), the Knicks answer to their prayers for a 3.
    Last edited by hometheaterguy; Jul 14, 2006 at 10:11.

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