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Thread: What's Wrong With The League 2

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    Default What's Wrong With The League 2

    A while ago, someone started a thread asking what was different about the league and why so many long time fans lost interest. Since I can't find that thread anymore, I decided to share something a coworker of mine passed along to me. It's by Bill Simmons from ESPN.com. I agree with everything in the article and I think this hits at all the things a lot of us have been hinting at:

    The NBA turned the competitive sport of basketball into something else. It's still basketball, only it's a bastardized version of it. A certain amount of instinct and competitiveness has been compromised. Why? Because of the league's misguided attempt to create a fairy-tale universe in which world-class athletes can play basketball without ever raising their voices, trash-talking, bumping bodies, exulting after a great play or rubbing each other the wrong way.

    Three incidents/story lines from this year's playoffs inadvertently illustrated the deeper dilemma here:

    1. Let's say you're one of the best seven players on the Phoenix Suns. You love Nash -- he's your emotional leader, your meal ticket to the Finals, the ideal teammate and someone who makes you happy to play basketball every day for a living. He's killing himself to win a championship. His nose was split open in Game 1. His back bothers him to the point that he has to lie down on the sidelines during breaks. He's battling a real cheap-shot artist (Bruce Bowen) who's trying to shove and trip him on every play. But he keeps coming and coming, and eventually everyone follows suit. Just as things were falling apart in Game 4 and you were staring at the end of your season, he willed you back into the game and saved the day.

    Suddenly, he gets body-checked into a press table for no real reason on an especially cheap play. You're standing 20 feet away. Instinctively, you run a few steps toward the guy who did it -- after all, your meal ticket is lying on the court in a crumpled heap -- before remembering that you can't leave your bench. So you go back and watch everything else unfold from there. Twenty-four hours later, you get suspended for Game 5 because your instincts as a teammate kicked in for 1.7 seconds.

    Think about how dumb this is. What kind of league penalizes someone for reacting like a good teammate after his franchise player just got decked? Imagine you're playing pickup at a park, you're leading a game 10-3, your buddy is driving for the winning layup, and some stranger clotheslines your buddy from behind and knocks him into the metal pole. Do you react? Do you take a couple of steps toward him? I bet you do. For the NBA to pretend it can create a fairy-tale league in which these reactions can be removed from somebody's DNA -- almost like a chemical castration -- I mean, how stupid is that?

    2. One of the running debates of these playoffs: Is Bruce Bowen a cheap player? I love the fact that anyone's actually debating this -- if your answer is "no" or your answer is "I'm not sure," then you've obviously never played basketball in your life. Bruce Bowen is a cheap player. There's no debate. He's not some clumsy power forward who can't stay out of his own way (like Mark Madsen), or even some uncoordinated center who can't remember to keep his elbows near his body (like Shawn Bradley). He's a world-class athlete who has complete control over every inch of his body at all times.

    As anyone who's ever played basketball knows, with the exception of clumsy people who probably shouldn't be playing in the first place, there are no accidents on a basketball court. Your feet just don't coincidentally land under someone else's feet as he's shooting a jump shot, and you don't just coincidentally kick someone in the calf as he's going up for a layup or dunk. These things don't just happen. They don't. The only room for error happens when someone's trying to block a fast-break layup or dunk, takes a roundhouse swipe and inadvertently ends up hitting his opponent's head instead of the ball (like we saw with Matt Barnes when he clocked Matt Harpring Tuesday night). When Jason Richardson nails Memo Okur at the end of Game 4 because he's pissed that Okur was driving at the tail end of a guaranteed win, or Baron Davis elbows Derek Fisher in the same game because he's ticked that the Warriors blew a winnable game ... those aren't accidents.

    Anyway, for a world-class athlete with exceptional coordination, Bruce Bowen sure seems to have a lot of "accidents." They happen because of his style -- best described as "organized, physical chaos" -- and because he deliberately bends the rules for a competitive advantage. When he was breaking into the league, Bowen played for the Celtics from 1997-99, back when I was living in Boston and attending nearly every game. He was just as good defensively back then -- quicker, even -- but couldn't shoot to save his life (41 percent his first season, 28 percent his second season), and more importantly, he was a soft player. Opponents pushed him around, refs didn't give him any respect, even his own coach (Rick Pitino) screamed at him constantly. Since Bowen seemed like such a nice guy, and he tried so freaking hard, everyone who attended those games found themselves feeling sorry for him. As gifted as he was defensively, I never imagined him making it because of his dreadful shooting and beaten-down, little-kid-getting-picked-on-in-class demeanor. He just needed one person to believe in him ... and Rick Pitino wasn't it.

    When he finally made it in San Antonio a few years later, I wasn't shocked because there's always a place in the NBA for someone with a specific skill (whether it's long-range shooting, rebounding, defense or whatever), but I was shocked by his much-improved 3-point shooting (44 percent in 2003?????) and newfound intensity. Watching him hound offensive players was like watching Beecher torment Schillinger after he finally snapped in "Oz." Where did this come from??? Suddenly, Bowen was willing to bend the rules, trip guys as they landed after jump shots, bump them when they weren't looking and basically do anything to get into their heads, all while doing the whole "Wait, I'm in trouble??? What????" routine and pretending to be shocked anytime anyone threatened to kick his ass. Which happens every couple of months. There's no doubt in my mind -- absolutely none -- that at some point between Boston and San Antonio, Bruce Bowen decided to do whatever it took to remain in the NBA. Even if it meant becoming a dirty player.

    Now here's where the NBA failed: For a league that professes to be concerned about dirty play and any situation that could lead to a brawl, the league has curiously looked the other way with the single dirtiest player in the league. If he pulled this crap on a pickup court, or even in college intramurals, somebody would have punched Bowen in the face and broken his jaw. In the NBA? He gets to keep doing his thing and putting other players in danger. In the Phoenix series alone, he tripped Stoudemire from behind on a dunk in Game 2, kneed Nash in the groin in Game 3 and tried to knock Nash off balance in Game 4 as they were running back upcourt (causing a frustrated Nash to elbow him in the chops). The league penalizes two Phoenix stars for instinctively running toward an injured teammate, but they don't penalize a perpetually dirty player who's eventually going to trigger an ugly brawl before the end of his career?

    How the hell does that make sense?

    In the current NBA, you can't commit a hard foul, you can't trash-talk another player, you can't pull your shirt up after a roof-raising dunk, you can't protect a teammate who just got knocked into a press table. We have these rules -- I'm guessing -- because any of those actions can lead to an ugly fight. Ever since the Bad Boys Pistons and Riley's Knicks tried to turn the NBA into the WWF in the late '80s and early '90s, nearly every rule change was created to prevent ugly incidents, even if some of those rule changes compromised the competitiveness of the league in the process. Well, if that's the case, how could the league allow Bruce Bowen to keep running amok with no repercussions? Can you think of a better candidate to trigger an ugly fight some day than Bruce Bowen? Why do they allow him to keep doing what he's doing? Seriously, does the NBA have a clue?

    (On second thought, don't answer that.)

    3. The single most disgusting NBA development of the past few years? The flopping. Slowly, regretfully, inexplicably, the sport is morphing into soccer -- as exemplified by Kirilenko's swan dive near the end of Tuesday's Jazz-Warriors game that fouled out Matt Barnes, or Kirk Hinrich's perfectly designed flopparoo to draw Chauncey Billups' fourth foul in Detroit Tuesday. I blame the influx of European players for this trend because flopping has always been an acceptable part of soccer; they grew up watching that crap and understood that it could work in basketball as well, especially if you have a group of largely incompetent referees calling the action. So it started a few years ago, it's gotten worse and worse, and now, it's affecting the overall competitiveness of these games.

    Here's the problem: Because we don't have any anti-flopping rules, it behooves defenders to fall backward every time a low-post player lowers his shoulder, and it behooves them to slide under airborne players and plant their feet for a charge (even if they might end up breaking the guy's neck in the process). Not to keep bringing up the pickup basketball analogy, but geez ... can you imagine if somebody pulled this crap during a game among friends? The prevailing reactions would be, "What the hell are you doing?" and "If you do that again, I'm gonna sock you." But because the NBA refuses to do anything about the flopping, it's evolved into a savvy defensive maneuver. For instance, if you're Barnes and you're giving up 50 pounds to Boozer on the low post, there's only two ways you're stopping him: Go for a strip if he puts the ball on the ground, or jump backward if he's dumb enough to lower his shoulder as he's turning around. Those are your two options.

    Is that basketball? Hell, no! In fact, when I was a little kid -- and I swear to God, this happened -- a guard named Mike Newlin flopped to draw a charge from the great Dave Cowens, a fiery Hall of Famer who played with a remarkable level of passion and fury, to the degree that he burned himself out after 7-8 years. Completely and utterly outraged that Newlin committed such a phony act of sportsmanship, Cowens berated the ref who made the call, yelled at him some more, then started running back on defense when he noticed Newlin dribbling up the court. Now, our seats were at midcourt, so this happened right in front of us and nearly caused me to pee my pants -- as Cowens was running, he snapped and suddenly charged Newlin like a free safety, bodychecked him at full speed (much, MUCH harder than Horry's foul on Nash) and sent poor Newlin careening into the press table at about 35 mph. Then he turned to the same ref and screamed ...

    "NOW THAT'S A F------- FOUL!"

    Did Cowens get kicked out of the game? Of course. But there's a moral to the story. Once upon a time, these guys had a code of honor. They played hard, respected the game, defended their teammates, and if anyone stepped out of line, there was always someone that would take care of them -- whether it was another player, a referee, a coach or whatever. When fights or altercations happened, they were considered natural side effects of a physical sport. When two players talked smack, it was considered a good thing, a sign that the game was heating up, that we were potentially headed for a more competitive place.

    In fact, during the golden era of the NBA (1984-1993), three of the most inspired/famous/memorable moments, in retrospect, were McHale's clothesline of Rambis in the '84 Finals, MJ standing over Ewing after a hard foul and swearing at him in the '92 playoffs, and Parish getting fed up with Bill Laimbeer's crap, taking justice into his own hands and clocking him in Game 5 of the '87 playoffs. Why do those moments still resonate? Because there was a level of competitiveness back then that doesn't exist anymore -- it's been beaten out of these guys, partly because the league has been terrified of another Kermit Washington moment for 30 years, partly because the "SportsCenter" era (where we show the same highlight six million times and pretend to be appalled) made the decision-makers too skittish (to the degree that Carmelo Anthony was suspended for 15 games for slapping another player).

    Personally, I don't believe Kermit's punch could happen again -- it was the perfect storm of an NBA brawl, a powerful 6-foot-9 guy whirling around during a fight, then delivering a perfect straight right (seriously, that was like the right that Tommy Hearns threw to drop Roberto Duran) to the face of a peacemaker (Rudy Tomjanovich) who was running toward him at full speed and forgot to protect himself. Kermit's punch was a complete fluke. Repeat: a complete fluke. And yet, every decision made in the past 30 years keeps coming back to that one punch; it's the equivalent of a NASCAR driver dying after an accident that started because of one driver bumping another jumper from behind, followed by NASCAR banning bumping and completely removing that element from the sport.

    In other words, it would be a complete overreaction. You know, kind of like the Stoudemire/Diaw suspension.

    So don't blame the NBA higher-ups for the way they interpreted that stupid, idiotic, foolish, moronic, brainless, unintelligent, foolhardy, imprudent, thoughtless, obtuse and thickheaded rule. Blame them for having the rule itself. Blame them for allowing the league to morph into something that doesn't quite resemble basketball anymore. Blame them for a league in which basketball players aren't totally allowed to think and act like basketball players and teammates aren't totally allowed to think and act like teammates. Blame them for an ongoing double standard in which the Bruce Bowens of the league can willfully endanger other players, but a roundhouse swipe on an attempted block can get someone ejected if they miss by a scant 10 inches while moving at full speed. Blame them for dubious officiating that's compromised the playoffs to the degree that an increasing number of fans are wondering where the WWE ends and the NBA begins.

    This is food for thought you do the dishes...

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    He's too negative, especially coming from a person with no basketball experience. NBA games aren't easy to ref, its a fast paced very phyical basketball. The refs have the best view than anyone on the court...they make mistakes. But its getting annoying, people bitch too much about flopping.

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    Originally Posted by ShairanXIII
    [B]
    3. The single most disgusting NBA development of the past few years? The flopping. Slowly, regretfully, inexplicably, the sport is morphing into soccer -- as exemplified by Kirilenko's swan dive near the end of Tuesday's Jazz-Warriors game that fouled out Matt Barnes, or Kirk Hinrich's perfectly designed flopparoo to draw Chauncey Billups' fourth foul in Detroit Tuesday. I blame the influx of European players for this trend because flopping has always been an acceptable part of soccer; they grew up watching that crap and understood that it could work in basketball as well, especially if you have a group of largely incompetent referees calling the action. So it started a few years ago, it's gotten worse and worse, and now, it's affecting the overall competitiveness of these games.

    Here's the problem: Because we don't have any anti-flopping rules, it behooves defenders to fall backward every time a low-post player lowers his shoulder, and it behooves them to slide under airborne players and plant their feet for a charge (even if they might end up breaking the guy's neck in the process). Not to keep bringing up the pickup basketball analogy, but geez ... can you imagine if somebody pulled this crap during a game among friends? The prevailing reactions would be, "What the hell are you doing?" and "If you do that again, I'm gonna sock you." But because the NBA refuses to do anything about the flopping, it's evolved into a savvy defensive maneuver. For instance, if you're Barnes and you're giving up 50 pounds to Boozer on the low post, there's only two ways you're stopping him: Go for a strip if he puts the ball on the ground, or jump backward if he's dumb enough to lower his shoulder as he's turning around. Those are your two options.

    Is that basketball? Hell, no! In fact, when I was a little kid -- and I swear to God, this happened -- a guard named Mike Newlin flopped to draw a charge from the great Dave Cowens, a fiery Hall of Famer who played with a remarkable level of passion and fury, to the degree that he burned himself out after 7-8 years. Completely and utterly outraged that Newlin committed such a phony act of sportsmanship, Cowens berated the ref who made the call, yelled at him some more, then started running back on defense when he noticed Newlin dribbling up the court. Now, our seats were at midcourt, so this happened right in front of us and nearly caused me to pee my pants -- as Cowens was running, he snapped and suddenly charged Newlin like a free safety, bodychecked him at full speed (much, MUCH harder than Horry's foul on Nash) and sent poor Newlin careening into the press table at about 35 mph. Then he turned to the same ref and screamed ...

    "NOW THAT'S A F------- FOUL!"

    Did Cowens get kicked out of the game? Of course. But there's a moral to the story. Once upon a time, these guys had a code of honor. They played hard, respected the game, defended their teammates, and if anyone stepped out of line, there was always someone that would take care of them -- whether it was another player, a referee, a coach or whatever. When fights or altercations happened, they were considered natural side effects of a physical sport. When two players talked smack, it was considered a good thing, a sign that the game was heating up, that we were potentially headed for a more competitive place.

    In fact, during the golden era of the NBA (1984-1993), three of the most inspired/famous/memorable moments, in retrospect, were McHale's clothesline of Rambis in the '84 Finals, MJ standing over Ewing after a hard foul and swearing at him in the '92 playoffs, and Parish getting fed up with Bill Laimbeer's crap, taking justice into his own hands and clocking him in Game 5 of the '87 playoffs. Why do those moments still resonate? Because there was a level of competitiveness back then that doesn't exist anymore -- it's been beaten out of these guys, partly because the league has been terrified of another Kermit Washington moment for 30 years, partly because the "SportsCenter" era (where we show the same highlight six million times and pretend to be appalled) made the decision-makers too skittish (to the degree that Carmelo Anthony was suspended for 15 games for slapping another player).

    Personally, I don't believe Kermit's punch could happen again -- it was the perfect storm of an NBA brawl, a powerful 6-foot-9 guy whirling around during a fight, then delivering a perfect straight right (seriously, that was like the right that Tommy Hearns threw to drop Roberto Duran) to the face of a peacemaker (Rudy Tomjanovich) who was running toward him at full speed and forgot to protect himself. Kermit's punch was a complete fluke. Repeat: a complete fluke. And yet, every decision made in the past 30 years keeps coming back to that one punch; it's the equivalent of a NASCAR driver dying after an accident that started because of one driver bumping another jumper from behind, followed by NASCAR banning bumping and completely removing that element from the sport.

    In other words, it would be a complete overreaction. You know, kind of like the Stoudemire/Diaw suspension.

    So don't blame the NBA higher-ups for the way they interpreted that stupid, idiotic, foolish, moronic, brainless, unintelligent, foolhardy, imprudent, thoughtless, obtuse and thickheaded rule. Blame them for having the rule itself. Blame them for allowing the league to morph into something that doesn't quite resemble basketball anymore. Blame them for a league in which basketball players aren't totally allowed to think and act like basketball players and teammates aren't totally allowed to think and act like teammates. Blame them for an ongoing double standard in which the Bruce Bowens of the league can willfully endanger other players, but a roundhouse swipe on an attempted block can get someone ejected if they miss by a scant 10 inches while moving at full speed. Blame them for dubious officiating that's compromised the playoffs to the degree that an increasing number of fans are wondering where the WWE ends and the NBA begins.
    I agree on all your points but this point is the most important. I am as frustrated as Jeff Van Gundy is when he's commentating and is lashing out his point on this. It's silly, takes away the integrity of the game, and like what JVG said...it deserves to be a violation even though that's going to be tougher than it sounds. Also flopping leads to injuries...if you're dumb enough to flop then you clog the lane when you're on the ground which can cause knee injuries and other type of injuries. Yes Europeans did lead to the large influx to this because they aren't as physical as Americans in this sport. This is a man's sport...there's going to be bumping, pushing, and shoving...also they aren't as athletic as Americans so they flop since they never get good position but there are always exceptions to the rule. And I love the cowens story by the way lol

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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    He's too negative, especially coming from a person with no basketball experience. NBA games aren't easy to ref, its a fast paced very phyical basketball. The refs have the best view than anyone on the court...they make mistakes. But its getting annoying, people bitch too much about flopping.
    I don't think he's criticizng the refs though... I think he's criticizing the league for castrating the emotion of the game... i like the references he makes to street games... if you're grabbing an offensive rebound over me and i try to get out of your way but end up low bridging you... that's an accident that we'd laugh off... but if you go up for the same board and i push you in the back or i get under you AFTER you're in the air... my only intention would be to hurt you... you'd get f&&& up for that... there's no more passion or team pride in the game cuz guys aren't warriors (can you imagine what Oakley and Mason would've done to the Spurs if Nash was one of ours? or Camby and LJ?)... the team doesn't stand and fall together anymore... but i do agree that sometimes you just need to shut the f***k up and play... but playing dirty guys is no fun...

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    This is a great article. The NBA has created a league where the only eople really watching the games are true fans of the sports and the fans of teams that are in the games. I have been perplexed by this "Charging" rule for some time now. I can not believe that some people are now considering that "move" a real defensive display. It's a bush league play but the NBA continues to have their refs go out aand call this play. Does one really have to be skilled in playing ball to know how to run in front of someone while he is making his move.
    I grew up watching the NBA during the early 80s and forward, i remember wht real rivalries were. i remember what real defensive struggles were, i remember how bird and jordan(even though i never liked them personally as a knick fan), would use hard fouls and taunts to punish teams. I remember a time when Oak was on the team, and John Wallace was a rookie on the team, Wallace committed a hard foul on someone and attempted to help him up, I remember Oak racing towards Wallace and pushing hm out the way to prevent him from helping up the person he fouled. I never saw that as being unsportsmanlike, I saw it as Oak trying to teach the young buck a lesson on how the game was to be played. That should know that coming into the lane, you are going to pay a price. Mind you, it wasn't a clothesline or anything of the sort, just a hard foul which the nba for whatever reason has now outlawed. The NBA has made the league too soft, i can understand some of the rule changes, but when you start effected the way the games are suppose to be played then it begins 2 get disappointing. With all the hard nose rough defense the pistons and the knicks played in the lte 80s early 90s, the only real altercations happened when they played their rivals (BULLS(knicks & pistons) CELTICS HEAT PACERS) and i would argue that those altercations happened moreso because of the rivalary and intensity of the matchups more than the actual rough play. and that is the nature of the game. this get heated, emotions get in the way sometimes, things happen, and then guess what, after all that passes, you go and play more basketball.
    This NBA has lost their way in regards of the way ball is supposed to be played..

    Just my opinon

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    EXACTLY...it doesn't take skill to move your feet in front of a moving player and flop. That's why I consider bruce bowen, kobe bryant, and those type of players as real defenders. Because they are physical and will body you up to keep you from the basket. Players like Raja play too soft. Don't get me wrong the man can defend, but he needs to man up because all the flops are killing the game. The game is becoming to much like the European style of play. Flops, soft play, cry babying...it's not what I want to see. I want to see the hard fouls that enforce the lanes, I want to see good defense (the WNBA are more physical on defense than some of the men)...because if you think the Robert Horry foul was too harsh on crybaby nash...just imagine if it was mason or barkley that hip checked him...he would have went clearly through the table. True MVPs stand up for themselves...MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone...these are men. Give Kobe or Lebron the MVP because Nash doesnt deserve it...but that's a different story...

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    Originally Posted by The 1 and Only
    EXACTLY...it doesn't take skill to move your feet in front of a moving player and flop. That's why I consider bruce bowen, kobe bryant, and those type of players as real defenders. Because they are physical and will body you up to keep you from the basket. Players like Raja play too soft. Don't get me wrong the man can defend, but he needs to man up because all the flops are killing the game. The game is becoming to much like the European style of play. Flops, soft play, cry babying...it's not what I want to see. I want to see the hard fouls that enforce the lanes, I want to see good defense (the WNBA are more physical on defense than some of the men)...because if you think the Robert Horry foul was too harsh on crybaby nash...just imagine if it was mason or barkley that hip checked him...he would have went clearly through the table. True MVPs stand up for themselves...MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone...these are men. Give Kobe or Lebron the MVP because Nash doesnt deserve it...but that's a different story...
    You need to anticipate and read where a player is going to go in order to flop sucessful, and some acting skills, aha, so flopping does require some skills.

    Raja Bell plays too soft? Raja Bell is not shy of a physical style. Thats like saying Curry is a physical phenom defensively. When Bryant tried to establish post position, Bell was very physical defensively. Bell rarely turned his attention from Bryant, frequently faceguarding him and ignoring the basketball. Raja Bell is one of the best in the NBA in denying the ball and frustrating superstars, ignore the flopping part. His job is to keep players from the basket, where have you been? If he didn't did his job, he wouldn't be starting on Phoneix. Denying the ball and playing position defense don't show up on the stat sheet, but Raja Bell still one of the best in the NBA at this. Raja Bell made the all first defensive team, so theres no denying his ability as a great defender. Raja Bell is an in your face defender, far from a soft player.

    I didn't know American NBA players don't cry, whine, and flop. Its only those damn Euros, right?

    Right, Nash doesn't deserve MVP too...oh boy

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    good post.

    The nba is way to soft, compared to how the old pistons played the nba is lookin like the wnba rite now

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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    You need to anticipate and read where a player is going to go in order to flop sucessful, and some acting skills, aha, so flopping does require some skills.

    Raja Bell plays too soft? Raja Bell is not shy of a physical style. Thats like saying Curry is a physical phenom defensively. When Bryant tried to establish post position, Bell was very physical defensively. Bell rarely turned his attention from Bryant, frequently faceguarding him and ignoring the basketball. Raja Bell is one of the best in the NBA in denying the ball and frustrating superstars, ignore the flopping part. His job is to keep players from the basket, where have you been? If he didn't did his job, he wouldn't be starting on Phoneix. Denying the ball and playing position defense don't show up on the stat sheet, but Raja Bell still one of the best in the NBA at this. Raja Bell made the all first defensive team, so theres no denying his ability as a great defender. Raja Bell is an in your face defender, far from a soft player.

    I didn't know American NBA players don't cry, whine, and flop. Its only those damn Euros, right?

    Right, Nash doesn't deserve MVP too...oh boy

    You have to see where I'm coming from...I've seen the game turn from a "thuggish" type of game in the 90s to a soft "european" type play in the present. Why do you think they change rules such as the 10 second rule to the 8 second and the open court foul...the new hand check fouls and "legalizing" the flop?? Yep you're right...it's because of the european style. Stern and others want to see the game speed up...like the european style of play which is a shame for old school fans like myself. I don't like seeing that crap. And no...flopping doesn't take skill...you're telling me running in front of a moving player takes skill? Now taking position from the opposing player...now that takes skill but if I step in front of somebody thats moving...I'm sure I can pick a bum off the street to do that. And again Raja Bell plays great defense...I think I said that on my last post, it's the flopping that makes him soft...I didn't mean to sound as if he was soft period because he's not. He is physical somewhat, but the flopping makes me want to watch the WNBA no lie.

    haha no americans do whine, cry, and flop...but then again...most do have the balls to get in somebody's face and go to work like back in the day...can't say that much for the european sport right now...it could possibly change in the future tho.

    And no Nash doesn't deserve MVP just as Dirk doesn't deserve it....where are they at now?? Whoops...I think the true MVP (Duncan) crushed stern's poster child Nash and didn't dirk get bumped out the playoffs by the 8th seed? Dag those are some true MVPs...modern day Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Michael Jordan!

    And I agree with you streetz...the game has changed...

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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    You need to anticipate and read where a player is going to go in order to flop sucessful, and some acting skills, aha, so flopping does require some skills.

    Raja Bell plays too soft? Raja Bell is not shy of a physical style. Thats like saying Curry is a physical phenom defensively. When Bryant tried to establish post position, Bell was very physical defensively. Bell rarely turned his attention from Bryant, frequently faceguarding him and ignoring the basketball. Raja Bell is one of the best in the NBA in denying the ball and frustrating superstars, ignore the flopping part. His job is to keep players from the basket, where have you been? If he didn't did his job, he wouldn't be starting on Phoneix. Denying the ball and playing position defense don't show up on the stat sheet, but Raja Bell still one of the best in the NBA at this. Raja Bell made the all first defensive team, so theres no denying his ability as a great defender. Raja Bell is an in your face defender, far from a soft player.

    I didn't know American NBA players don't cry, whine, and flop. Its only those damn Euros, right?

    Right, Nash doesn't deserve MVP too...oh boy
    Taking a charge is a good defensive maneuver... if a guy is attacking the rim by trying to run over someone who beat him to a spot... then by all means take the charge... but flopping is unforgivable... getting infront of a guy... waiting for incidental contact and dropping yourself like you got bumrushed by LT... that's some bulls***...

    And Nash has two fraudulent MVP awards already... we don't need to add to his trophy case anymore until he proves he is an all time great... IMO... Shaq or Duncan should have won the first... and Kobe should have won the second... with Nash winning this year (18 and 10)... but there is no way you should win 3 consecutive MVPs when your team doesn't win sh***... blame injuries... blame league rules... Nash hasn't even made it out of his conference yet... but we're putting him up there with all time greats...

    Scott Skiles, Mark Price, John Stockton were all capable of doing what Nash does... but also played in a league where going to the hole equaled a rough crash to the hardwood... where handchecking was legal... and where teams would grab claw and scratch there way to championships... if Nash played in a different era... he'd be done...

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    EXACTLYYYYY...tell it like it is man. I agree with you 100%. You must be from the old school man lol

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    Lebron for MVP! If you said Nash for MVP...go kick rocks with'em cuz i think he's at home with his boy Dirk LOL. Because we all know Nash nor Dirk is capable of doing the things we've just witness this year folks. I have underestimated his powers and I regret for ever underrating this kid. The kid is great...Lebron for MVP!

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    Originally Posted by The 1 and Only
    You have to see where I'm coming from...I've seen the game turn from a "thuggish" type of game in the 90s to a soft "european" type play in the present. Why do you think they change rules such as the 10 second rule to the 8 second and the open court foul...the new hand check fouls and "legalizing" the flop?? Yep you're right...it's because of the european style. Stern and others want to see the game speed up...like the european style of play which is a shame for old school fans like myself. I don't like seeing that crap. And no...flopping doesn't take skill...you're telling me running in front of a moving player takes skill? Now taking position from the opposing player...now that takes skill but if I step in front of somebody thats moving...I'm sure I can pick a bum off the street to do that. And again Raja Bell plays great defense...I think I said that on my last post, it's the flopping that makes him soft...I didn't mean to sound as if he was soft period because he's not. He is physical somewhat, but the flopping makes me want to watch the WNBA no lie.

    haha no americans do whine, cry, and flop...but then again...most do have the balls to get in somebody's face and go to work like back in the day...can't say that much for the european sport right now...it could possibly change in the future tho.

    And no Nash doesn't deserve MVP just as Dirk doesn't deserve it....where are they at now?? Whoops...I think the true MVP (Duncan) crushed stern's poster child Nash and didn't dirk get bumped out the playoffs by the 8th seed? Dag those are some true MVPs...modern day Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Michael Jordan!

    And I agree with you streetz...the game has changed...
    Your seeing it the wrong way then, just like how you see the MVP's.

    NBA wasn't thuggish in the 90s. Grant Hill, Jordan, Penny, Mutumbo etc were class ACTS. NBA was extremely physical, why would you use the word thuggish for? Thats totally off-definition.

    Maybe Stern wants to change the rules cause American players aren't adapting to FIBA rules. USA is no longer dominant in FIBA, therefor Stern is mixing some new things. Every decade of the NBA is different, if you don't like this era, then go watch the WNBA. How can you be an old school fan when you're not even 18? Old school is like 70's and 80's Dr. Jay basketball, you're joking right?


    Not most, this isn't even an American vs Euro debate, alot of guys in the NBA FLOP who are both American and Euro. At times its taking a charge, and others its a flop. The purpose is to win, both are physical moves in order to win. I see no problem with that, hell let Curry flop all the time since he's the worst defensive big man in the world, it'll most def improve our defense.

    How many Euroleague (not on NBATV) games have you watched? You beasting on the flopping now.

    Nash is the two time MVP because he led the most dynamatic offense in the NBA in the last 3-4 seasons. He's the most productive offensive player by far if you combine all the assist, points, high FG% 3pt% FT% and his unselfishness.

    I thought Lebron should of won MVP over Dirk and everyone, and I don't disagree about Duncan winning MVP.

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    Originally Posted by ShairanXIII
    Taking a charge is a good defensive maneuver... if a guy is attacking the rim by trying to run over someone who beat him to a spot... then by all means take the charge... but flopping is unforgivable... getting infront of a guy... waiting for incidental contact and dropping yourself like you got bumrushed by LT... that's some bulls***...

    And Nash has two fraudulent MVP awards already... we don't need to add to his trophy case anymore until he proves he is an all time great... IMO... Shaq or Duncan should have won the first... and Kobe should have won the second... with Nash winning this year (18 and 10)... but there is no way you should win 3 consecutive MVPs when your team doesn't win sh***... blame injuries... blame league rules... Nash hasn't even made it out of his conference yet... but we're putting him up there with all time greats...

    Scott Skiles, Mark Price, John Stockton were all capable of doing what Nash does... but also played in a league where going to the hole equaled a rough crash to the hardwood... where handchecking was legal... and where teams would grab claw and scratch there way to championships... if Nash played in a different era... he'd be done...
    So? Shaq had many chances to win MVP, basically every year he played. He does deserve more, and you can make an agruement for Shaq, but lets not take credit away from Nash.

    IF he was in a different, but he wasn't, so throw that thought out the window.

    As good as Marion, Stoudemire, Barbosa, Diaw, and Bell are, that team just isn't the same without Nash running the point, period.

    In his first year
    He led the league in assists (11.1)
    Was one of the most efficent shooters in the league
    He returned to the Suns and they led the league in per game scoring (110) — a 16-point per game improvement over the previous season.
    He returned and the Suns went from a 29-53 losing season to a 62-20 winning record, which led the league.

    In 2004-05 Nash averaged 15.5 points, 11.5 assists, 3.3 turnovers and shot 50.2 percent from the field, 88.7 percent from the foul line and 43.1 percent from beyond the arc.

    Last season he averaged 18.8 points, 10.5 assists, 3.5 turnovers and shot 51.2 percent from the field, 92.1 percent from the foul line and 43.9 percent from beyond the arc.

    Of the three seasons, he is averaging more points and assists and shooting a higher percentage from the field and from three-point range this year.

    This season Nash had his best season, which could adds to the fact he got MVP votes this year. I still say Lebron, Duncan, then Nash are my top 3 MVP's.

    This isn't to you, but in GENERAL And people get so MAD at Nash when he won two MVP's in a row, and other ledgends in the NBA didn't. Who gives a ****? No one is saying Nash is better than those guys, stop being haters and taking credit away from the Canadian Kid.

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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Your seeing it the wrong way then, just like how you see the MVP's.

    NBA wasn't thuggish in the 90s. Grant Hill, Jordan, Penny, Mutumbo etc were class ACTS. NBA was extremely physical, why would you use the word thuggish for? Thats totally off-definition.

    Maybe Stern wants to change the rules cause American players aren't adapting to FIBA rules. USA is no longer dominant in FIBA, therefor Stern is mixing some new things. Every decade of the NBA is different, if you don't like this era, then go watch the WNBA. How can you be an old school fan when you're not even 18? Old school is like 70's and 80's Dr. Jay basketball, you're joking right?


    Not most, this isn't even an American vs Euro debate, alot of guys in the NBA FLOP who are both American and Euro. At times its taking a charge, and others its a flop. The purpose is to win, both are physical moves in order to win. I see no problem with that, hell let Curry flop all the time since he's the worst defensive big man in the world, it'll most def improve our defense.

    How many Euroleague (not on NBATV) games have you watched? You beasting on the flopping now.

    Nash is the two time MVP because he led the most dynamatic offense in the NBA in the last 3-4 seasons. He's the most productive offensive player by far if you combine all the assist, points, high FG% 3pt% FT% and his unselfishness.

    I thought Lebron should of won MVP over Dirk and everyone, and I don't disagree about Duncan winning MVP.
    Noticed how I put quotes around "thuggish"...which would mean that that's the common word for that type of era. haha and you name four players and think I can't name more "thugs" in the league haha. I'm not going to argue with you because I experienced the period...you probably read something on wikipedia or something. It's not arguable.

    And you have to realize where I'm coming from...do you even know where this type of play originated? Probably not...too young. But this type of play started when John Thompson of the Hoyas picked an all black team at an all white school (Georgetown if you haven't heard of him) and said let's go to work. He told his players if you don't punish the opponent for getting in the paint and play physical the entire game then he wasn't going to play you...Period.

    And you're right...the U.S is not dominant in FIBA anymore. I agree with you 100%. But it's not because they are better than us...it's because our best players or our most needed players are at home. No other country will be better in America in playing basketball. Maybe down the road sometime but not now...the U.S college game is too concentrated with talent. The draft speaks for itself.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    How can you be an old school fan when you're not even 18? Old school is like 70's and 80's Dr. Jay basketball, you're joking right?
    Do you really believe that? Seriously...do you really believe that. Your assumptions are outrageous.

    You have your opinion and I have mine...you're not going to change my mind man. So you can basically drop the flopping subject. Flopping is bad for the sport, it changes the integrity of the sport, and something should be done about it because the last time I checked...you actually have to touch the defender to be a foul right?

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    How many Euroleague (not on NBATV) games have you watched? You beasting on the flopping now.
    How many games in the 70s and 80s have you watched? I mean...you are 18 right? I'm not really interested with the european game which is why I don't really watch it. But if you 1 and 1 together you usually get 2. As I watch the game...a large influx of europeans entered the league and a slight change was felt. Seems like the defense was starting to fade and this throw your hands up and scream as loud as you can while looking at the ref type of action was starting to be the best things to do. As our young children started to watch this...they said hey I want to do that. And that is why you see Americans flop today. You don't see Dale Davis flop...you dont see Gary Payton flop...you don't see clifford robinson flop...because they are old school.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Nash is the two time MVP because he led the most dynamatic offense in the NBA in the last 3-4 seasons. He's the most productive offensive player by far if you combine all the assist, points, high FG% 3pt% FT% and his unselfishness.
    And yes Nash is very talented but tell me when I said he wasn't? You don't win MVPs on offensive production alone. How about Hakeem Olajuwon? Not necessarily dominant on the offensive end as he was on the defensive end. My point is that you can throw out every excuse in the book and you're still wrong. You said he led the most dynamic offensive team in the NBA the last 3-4 seasons but what have they accomplished out of that? Nothing! He couldn't make it to the western conference championship...I mean it only took lebron 4 years to get there and nash still has figured it out yet. You say he's the most productive offensive player in terms of assist, points, etc etc...but Jason Kidd has been termed the triple-double king (which the Big O is the true king) and actually led his team to a championship and has won 0 MVPs...IMO...Jason Kidd does everything better than Nash except shooting the rock. Other than that, Kidd has everything beat on Nash. Nash is very talented very very talented...but he's no MVP. If you take Lebron off the Cavs....they don't make playoffs. You take nash of the suns they could possibly be a playoff team. But it seems we have agreed on that. Just look at the before and after of Hakeem Olajuwon, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Tim Duncan....before the team struggled to win championships, after... every one gotta ring. All MVPs, All with championship rings. Can you say that in Nash's or Dirk's case? A true MVP take over games when there team needs them...Dirk and Nash just don't do that...very talented regular season players that struggle when it comes tot the playoffs.

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