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Thread: Nate & Crawford vs 23rd pick

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    Nyk Logo Nate & Crawford vs 23rd pick

    Wazup to all the members here, I apologize for not introducing myself when I first came on board. It's just that so many members in this forum had some great TOPICS and Responses to these topics that I fell right into the swing of things.

    My School Yard B-Ball name is Kiya.... "Man you should be able see your hops on the court." If any of you know what Kiya mean than you get the point.

    I been listening to alot of Media-Critics and Knick-Fans chew Nate Robinson apart about his young raw erratic style of play on the NBA court.
    This is the same young 5.8 or 5.9 player that has unbleivable HOPS on the court, inwhich his erratic defensive Zone play upset top PG's in the NBA like Nash, Kidd, Billups, and Arenas from taking complete control of the game.
    Nate Robinson is the same Rookie Player that had so many Knick-Fans in the Garden jump out of their seats cheering at his athletic talents on the court.

    Last offseason when Nate & Crawford played for the Seattle Street-Ball Team their performance was AWESOME on any and all levels each game.
    When Nate & Crawford performed with David Lee & Balkman in the Preseason games their was'nt an oposition unit that could stop them on either-sides of the court.
    When Head Coach Isiah Thomas used these four players off the bench at the same time (Nate, Crawford, Balkman, Lee, with any 5th man) at the start of the regular season, I had to give Isiah BIG-PROPS on his bench players hustling awareness to outscore the majority of their oponents.
    However, Coach Isiah five Starters at that time (Marbury, Francis, Q.Rich, Frye, and Curry) needed much NEEDED HELP (in everthing)!!!

    P.S. so all this talk of trading Nate and the 23rd pick to get another Guard, when the Knicks have "FIVE" efficient guards that can lead this team to the playoffs every season if matched up right if they stop with the "Three-Guard-Unit" when they should be playing the majority of their games with a "Three-Foward-Unit" for the WIN it won't look bad for the Marbury/Crawford, or Francis/Collins tandems, because Nate outside shooting and drive in the lane could play alongside of all the Knick Guards as a Tandem not a tripple-Guard threat without a ZONE-Defense added.

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    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    Wazup to all the members here, I apologize for not introducing myself when I first came on board. It's just that so many members in this forum had some great TOPICS and Responses to these topics that I fell right into the swing of things.

    My School Yard B-Ball name is Kiya.... "Man you should be able see your hops on the court." If any of you know what Kiya mean than you get the point.

    I been listening to alot of Media-Critics and Knick-Fans chew Nate Robinson apart about his young raw erratic style of play on the NBA court.
    This is the same young 5.8 or 5.9 player that has unbleivable HOPS on the court, inwhich his erratic defensive Zone play upset top PG's in the NBA like Nash, Kidd, Billups, and Arenas from taking complete control of the game.
    Nate Robinson is the same Rookie Player that had so many Knick-Fans in the Garden jump out of their seats cheering at his athletic talents on the court.

    Last offseason when Nate & Crawford played for the Seattle Street-Ball Team their performance was AWESOME on any and all levels each game.
    When Nate & Crawford performed with David Lee & Balkman in the Preseason games their was'nt an oposition unit that could stop them on either-sides of the court.
    When Head Coach Isiah Thomas used these four players off the bench at the same time (Nate, Crawford, Balkman, Lee, with any 5th man) at the start of the regular season, I had to give Isiah BIG-PROPS on his bench players hustling awareness to outscore the majority of their oponents.
    However, Coach Isiah five Starters at that time (Marbury, Francis, Q.Rich, Frye, and Curry) needed much NEEDED HELP (in everthing)!!!

    P.S. so all this talk of trading Nate and the 23rd pick to get another Guard, when the Knicks have "FIVE" efficient guards that can lead this team to the playoffs every season if matched up right if they stop with the "Three-Guard-Unit" when they should be playing the majority of their games with a "Three-Foward-Unit" for the WIN it won't look bad for the Marbury/Crawford, or Francis/Collins tandems, because Nate outside shooting and drive in the lane could play alongside of all the Knick Guards as a Tandem not a tripple-Guard threat without a ZONE-Defense added.
    I appreciate your insight on Nate and Crawford and your strong positive opinion on them as well. They are both talented players, no one is arguing that and especially Crawford who has the ability to put up huge offensive numbers at any given time. The issue here is, and I think it's what allot of the members of this forum harp on, is that they are 1 dimensional players during the NBA season and post season. You made a key statement when you said "the Knicks have "FIVE" efficient guards that can lead this team to the playoffs every season if matched up right"; that's the problem. Crawford is unable to guard most of the guards in this league and Nate just wants to be a high light on ESPN every night. Yes, the Knicks have talent but the Knicks lack continuity and fluidity. They have talent that can not co-exist with each other because they all have the same game. You need a mix of passers, defenders and scorers. You need guys that will step out onto the court, rebound and defend and are happy being the 4th or 5th option. Right now the Knicks can not put any combination on the floor that can compliment each other as well as elivate each other. They are players that only know how to create their own shot and elevate their own game. Except for Balkman and Lee, no other player even tries on D. So, despite the Knicks having an abundance of players at the guard position and the forward position, they are still weak there and need to address it.

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    The Gold Mac MSGKnickz33's Avatar
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    I think Nate robinson has the potential to be very good in every aspect of the game. Hes got the strength speed and athletic ability to become a very good defensive point guard. His ability to take his man off the dribble and break down a defense gives him the potential to become a good playmaker. Not one player in the league is as quick as him in my opinion and once he learns how to control his emotions on the court, watch out. But yo kiyaman, the only problem is mardy colins. Hes also got the potential and probably will be a very good point guard. So you got nate R, Crawford, and Mardy. Will this be the 3 man rotation once steve francis gets wiaved/traded/benched and as marbury gets older? And the other question is which 2 out of these 3 would be in the starting lineup? Either way to me its a win win situation. I'm a big fan of all 3 of these players and I dont want to see any of them traded. Unfortunately, I think Nate will be traded. Many people on here would love to see him go but they just hatin on the lil' man.

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    Superstar ShairanXIII's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    Right now the Knicks can not put any combination on the floor that can compliment each other as well as elivate each other. They are players that only know how to create their own shot and elevate their own game. Except for Balkman and Lee, no other player even tries on D. So, despite the Knicks having an abundance of players at the guard position and the forward position, they are still weak there and need to address it.
    you're being a little harsh here man... marbury, q-rich and collins all stepped up their defensive play whenever on the floor... and we do have units that can compliment and elevate each other... this is all based on their play this past season...

    Curry (post scoring), Lee (rebounding/hustle), Richardson (rebounding/defense), Crawford (playmaking/perimeter offense), Steph (defense/playmaking/penetration)

    Frye (post/mid range scoring), Lee (rebounding/hustle), Balkman (defense/rebounding), Mardy (defense/hustle), Crawford (playmaking/perimeter offense)

    i didn't put nate on my list since he does not play within the system... if he were to play more under control... he would definately be on it though... he's one of my favorite players... but he's a knucklehead...

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    If Lee develops a mid range jumper, Frye is useless, this is why I hope Isiah gets Artest with Frye in the deal.

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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    I appreciate your insight on Nate and Crawford and your strong positive opinion on them as well. They are both talented players, no one is arguing that and especially Crawford who has the ability to put up huge offensive numbers at any given time. The issue here is, and I think it's what allot of the members of this forum harp on, is that they are 1 dimensional players during the NBA season and post season. You made a key statement when you said "the Knicks have "FIVE" efficient guards that can lead this team to the playoffs every season if matched up right"; that's the problem. Crawford is unable to guard most of the guards in this league and Nate just wants to be a high light on ESPN every night. Yes, the Knicks have talent but the Knicks lack continuity and fluidity. They have talent that can not co-exist with each other because they all have the same game. You need a mix of passers, defenders and scorers. You need guys that will step out onto the court, rebound and defend and are happy being the 4th or 5th option. Right now the Knicks can not put any combination on the floor that can compliment each other as well as elivate each other. They are players that only know how to create their own shot and elevate their own game. Except for Balkman and Lee, no other player even tries on D. So, despite the Knicks having an abundance of players at the guard position and the forward position, they are still weak there and need to address it.
    [QUOTE=MSGKnickz33;32872]I think Nate robinson has the potential to be very good in every aspect of the game. Hes got the strength speed and athletic ability to become a very good defensive point guard. His ability to take his man off the dribble and break down a defense gives him the potential to become a good playmaker. Not one player in the league is as quick as him in my opinion and once he learns how to control his emotions on the court, watch out. But yo kiyaman, the only problem is mardy colins. Hes also got the potential and probably will be a very good point guard. So you got nate R, Crawford, and Mardy. Will this be the 3 man rotation once steve francis gets wiaved/traded/benched and as marbury gets older? And the other question is which 2 out of these 3 would be in the starting lineup? Either way to me its a win win situation. I'm a big fan of all 3 of these players and I dont want to see any of them traded. Unfortunately, I think Nate will be traded. Many people on here would love to see him go but they just hatin on the lil' man.[/QUOTE

    One thing mentioned in the first quote was continuity and the Knicks need for it, and I couldn't agree more, that is exactly why I think we need to hold off on any major acqusitons this summer, let's see how we do next year. Again if we don't make the playoffs next year we'll have a lottery pick, 40 mill in expiring contracts, plus some better developed players, to make some major moves. I think if this same group can't crack a 8th seed in the weak East then we HAVE TO HAVE TO make moves, but let's be patient and see what we can do with this unit being healthy next year......2nd quote: I don't want to see Nate go, but there are too many combos on this team and frankly he's the most movable.

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    I am suprise that everyone made some great responses in this post.

    The potential of these players are their in their performance.
    How they are being coached is questionable? with the way they were used in the rotation and the role position they were given to play in the last two seasons by two different coaches?
    Both coaches coached this Knick team like they did not share the scouting report on the oposition with the Knick Players, by coaching by ear (Big-Ego).
    The Crawford & Nate Backcourt tandem ended very early at the start of the season when that bench-backcourt-tandem outplayed their oponents and made the Marbury & Francis 30 MPG tandem look bad (which made Isiah Thomas idea look Bad). Why Head Coach Isiah would not put Nate on the court with Crawford after that for the rest of the season was Isiah perogative. But....
    The Nate, Crawford, and Lee threesome with Balkman added to the Bench-crew was the best FOUR scoring players off of hustling (bench unit) I seen in the NBA in along time (they played and looked like the Golden State Warriors that beat the Mavs at their own game). But....
    They made Isiah Thomas Starters (Curry, Frye, Q.Rich, Francis, and Marbury) look like Bums, which made Isiah look bad. So Isiah changed the starting lineup by bumpin Francis for Crawford, then puttin Frye on the IL for Lee. But....
    You can not forget when the Knicks played the Houston Rockets and Yao was blocking all of Curry & Frye shots and was on his way to making a record of block-shots in a game, not to mention Yao was scoring all over Curry and Frye untill little 5.9 Nate Robinson went up and blocked 7.5 Yao shot cleanly. That did not make Curry or Frye look to good from a Big man view because they have yet to block one of Yao shots in their NBA career.
    Isiah Thomas dont like to be reminded of that one...

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    Your Best Bet is B Ez datruth's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    I am suprise that everyone made some great responses in this post.

    The potential of these players are their in their performance.
    How they are being coached is questionable? with the way they were used in the rotation and the role position they were given to play in the last two seasons by two different coaches?
    Both coaches coached this Knick team like they did not share the scouting report on the oposition with the Knick Players, by coaching by ear (Big-Ego).
    The Crawford & Nate Backcourt tandem ended very early at the start of the season when that bench-backcourt-tandem outplayed their oponents and made the Marbury & Francis 30 MPG tandem look bad (which made Isiah Thomas idea look Bad). Why Head Coach Isiah would not put Nate on the court with Crawford after that for the rest of the season was Isiah perogative. But....
    The Nate, Crawford, and Lee threesome with Balkman added to the Bench-crew was the best FOUR scoring players off of hustling (bench unit) I seen in the NBA in along time (they played and looked like the Golden State Warriors that beat the Mavs at their own game). But....
    They made Isiah Thomas Starters (Curry, Frye, Q.Rich, Francis, and Marbury) look like Bums, which made Isiah look bad. So Isiah changed the starting lineup by bumpin Francis for Crawford, then puttin Frye on the IL for Lee. But....
    You can not forget when the Knicks played the Houston Rockets and Yao was blocking all of Curry & Frye shots and was on his way to making a record of block-shots in a game, not to mention Yao was scoring all over Curry and Frye untill little 5.9 Nate Robinson went up and blocked 7.5 Yao shot cleanly. That did not make Curry or Frye look to good from a Big man view because they have yet to block one of Yao shots in their NBA career.
    Isiah Thomas dont like to be reminded of that one...
    its hard to play crawford and nate at the same time when neither are strong defenders

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    Not to mention this isn't streetball, it's THE NBA!!! I don't care how many fancy moves you got or how sweet your crossover is, team defense is the key to winning in the NBA. I want the Knicks to win a championship at some point before I die and they will never win a championship with streetballers who chuck up awful shots. Look at the teams that are in the finals, great defensive teams. Also look at who is kicking ass in the finals right now and will win the championship for the fourth time, a team with great team defense and a great post-up game. That's how you win championships!!

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    Nate is a great athlete and an exiciting player, but he will always be a defensive liability because of his size. In addition, there is no guarantee he will mature out of his volatile personality or settle down as a player and make consistently good decisions. Many players don't.

    I think the Knicks should trade him as soon as posible. His market value can only go down as the rest of the league catches on to his limitations and the excitement of his athleticism wears off.
    Last edited by knicklover; Jun 14, 2007 at 08:24.

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    Dont knock the streetball technique especially when it is a backcourt Tandem (Nate &Craw) with two hustling rebounders (Lee & Balkman) comming off the bench to add hustling speed in the game.
    It becomes hard for Knick oposition scouts to learn how to read the Knicks chemistry of players.
    If the Knicks starting backcourt of Marbury & Francis had worked in well alongside of frontcourt Curry & Frye the Knicks would've had 8-Players that could change the tempo of the game according to their oposition making the Knicks in total control over 70% of the NBA teams in the league. Not to many teams in the NBA could do that.
    How President/Coach Isiah Thomas did not know that the matching of Marbury & Francis, and the matching of Curry & Frye did not work at all on offense and defense after training camp and the Preseason Practices says something about his coaching technique.
    The Knicks have a ROSTER of a TWO-Unit team!
    they do not have a roster with a single star player that gets 25 point per game. The 30 MPG given to Marbury, Crawford, and Curry was their down fall the last two seasons. Maybe if they had Ariza & Lee in that 30 MPG UNIT with those three strictly offensive players they could have built some chemistry system to make them a 500% team during the season. But still they would have needed the 18 MPG Nate, Q.Rich, Frye, Balkman, and Francis or Collins off the bench. This Knicks Roster know matter how you put it is a TWO-UNIT team...
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The 1999 NBA FINALS between the Knicks vs Spurs were supposed to be the Knicks in 6 games.
    If the 8th seeded Knicks did not beat the Mighty Pat Riley Miami Heat with the unstoppable healthy Alonzo Morning that season their was NO way on this earth that the Spurs old 22 MPG David Robinson, young Duncan, Malik Rose, and Avery Johnson, would have beat Miami in any series.
    It took all of the Knicks Patrick Ewing, Camby, K-Thomas, Herb Williams, Sprewell, Chris Childs, and Allan Houston Last second Shot in the seven game to beat the BEST team in the league that season the Miami Heat.
    If the Knicks would not have beat the Heat in the first round the Knicks Head Coach JVG would have been FIRED the day after the Knicks were eliminated for fighting Knick G.M. Ernie Grunfield. After that first round Knick Win Sorry A$$ Sore Patrick EWING bailed out of the rest of the Post Season games with a so-call injury, because he did not want to WIN a Championship without his Homeboy buddies Oakley & Starks who been traded for Camby & Sprewell whom added SPEED on bothsides of the court with old slow (halfcourt) Ewing.
    The most important part of the 1999 NBA Finals was if the Spurs lost in the FINALS they would not have built the team around 7.0 Duncan as a PF with C-David Robinson retiring. The Spurs would have went whole different direction with their roster putting Duncan at center replacing David Robinson whom retired after that season....

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    Kiyaman is dropping knowledge.

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    Superstar ShairanXIII's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    Dont knock the streetball technique especially when it is a backcourt Tandem (Nate &Craw) with two hustling rebounders (Lee & Balkman) comming off the bench to add hustling speed in the game.
    It becomes hard for Knick oposition scouts to learn how to read the Knicks chemistry of players.
    If the Knicks starting backcourt of Marbury & Francis had worked in well alongside of frontcourt Curry & Frye the Knicks would've had 8-Players that could change the tempo of the game according to their oposition making the Knicks in total control over 70% of the NBA teams in the league. Not to many teams in the NBA could do that.
    How President/Coach Isiah Thomas did not know that the matching of Marbury & Francis, and the matching of Curry & Frye did not work at all on offense and defense after training camp and the Preseason Practices says something about his coaching technique.
    The Knicks have a ROSTER of a TWO-Unit team!
    they do not have a roster with a single star player that gets 25 point per game. The 30 MPG given to Marbury, Crawford, and Curry was their down fall the last two seasons. Maybe if they had Ariza & Lee in that 30 MPG UNIT with those three strictly offensive players they could have built some chemistry system to make them a 500% team during the season. But still they would have needed the 18 MPG Nate, Q.Rich, Frye, Balkman, and Francis or Collins off the bench. This Knicks Roster know matter how you put it is a TWO-UNIT team...
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The 1999 NBA FINALS between the Knicks vs Spurs were supposed to be the Knicks in 6 games.
    If the 8th seeded Knicks did not beat the Mighty Pat Riley Miami Heat with the unstoppable healthy Alonzo Morning that season their was NO way on this earth that the Spurs old 22 MPG David Robinson, young Duncan, Malik Rose, and Avery Johnson, would have beat Miami in any series.
    It took all of the Knicks Patrick Ewing, Camby, K-Thomas, Herb Williams, Sprewell, Chris Childs, and Allan Houston Last second Shot in the seven game to beat the BEST team in the league that season the Miami Heat.
    If the Knicks would not have beat the Heat in the first round the Knicks Head Coach JVG would have been FIRED the day after the Knicks were eliminated for fighting Knick G.M. Ernie Grunfield. After that first round Knick Win Sorry A$$ Sore Patrick EWING bailed out of the rest of the Post Season games with a so-call injury, because he did not want to WIN a Championship without his Homeboy buddies Oakley & Starks who been traded for Camby & Sprewell whom added SPEED on bothsides of the court with old slow (halfcourt) Ewing.
    The most important part of the 1999 NBA Finals was if the Spurs lost in the FINALS they would not have built the team around 7.0 Duncan as a PF with C-David Robinson retiring. The Spurs would have went whole different direction with their roster putting Duncan at center replacing David Robinson whom retired after that season....
    you seem to be glossing over the fact that early last season... steph and franchise were complaining because IT benched them for being unproductive... the knicks' record started improving when steph got with the program and differred to curry... and when steph's defense improved... frye over lee is a tough sell... but frye is less mentally tough than dlee... so i can see why IT would want to give the youngin some starter burn... to keep his confidence up... AND... qrich was our best overall player at the start of the season... balkman didn't really blossom until we had the 9 man rotation after the fight... which makes it questionable that IT would insert francis, jj13 and jj20 into the lineup after experiencing success with the 9 man unit... but i can see where he's coming from from a coaching standpoint... some coaches make guys work for their spot (sloan, popovich)... others give their guys opportunities to play through struggles (lawrence frank, d'antoni, rick adleman, stan van gundy, IT)... it's just a different style of coaching... obviously IT hasn't won a chip with this method yet... but give him some time... we may see success next season...

    as for 99... you're wrong... as much as i love the knicks... we sucked the first half of the lockout season because JVG couldn't incorporate camby and sprewell into the team... he acquissed to ewing since ewing was the franchise and demanded the attention on offense... remember... JVG only stepped in cuz ewing got nelson fired... nelson wanted to take the focus away from ewing... no way jvg was going to upset goliath... our talent level did not make us an 8th seed... our chemistry did...

    then... we play atlanta without ewing... and beat indiana without him and his strained achilles... i wouldn't call the injury bogus since ewing was already on the downside of a 15 year career... and what player doesn't want to win a championship? that's a bogus claim dude... ewing was self centered and stubborn... but he was a warrior that wanted a ring... he just thought the ring should come through him... anyway... the point is... camby and sprewell were afterthoughts for JVG early in the season... and until the ewing injury... JVG was content benching camby since he didn't see any value in a 6'11 athletic freak that couldn't dominate the low post on offense... so camby, spree, houston and LJ power us through the east... then we match up with the twin towers... ewing would have been an asset in that series... but he was hurt... the spurs would have beaten miami too... since robinson routinely owned zo... the only centers that could slow down d-rob were hakeem and shaq... zo was 5 on that list behind ewing and ahead of motumbo... bj brown was no match for td even at 23... and avery johnson, sean elliot and co would have done a decent job on the perimeter...

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