View Poll Results: Is the Randolph trade the best trade Isiah has made?

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Thread: Curry and Randolph

  1. #61
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    I respect a lot of opinions here, but people are worrying way too much about what Curry and Randolph scored previously vs. what they will be able to score now that they are together.

    Who cares who gets how many touches and how much they score this year as long as the Knicks "net out" to better results in total with this combination instead of Curry and Frye.

    Personally, I think it's a total no brainer that the Knicks are more talented now than they were before draft night and will get better results.

    They may have to tweak the offensive scheme relative to what it was last year, but its very doable UNLESS player egos and chemistry get involved. It will be Isiah's job as coach to keep Randolph and Curry (and Steph for that matter) happy with their number of touches and the new scheme. It will be Randoph's, Curry's and Steph's job to excute the new scheme.

    I am assuming that Curry has been working on an little jumper in the off season (that was the plan) and from reports Randolph (I haven't see much of him) already has one.

    So if this year Randolph only scores 18 PPG and more of them come on jumpers and Curry scores only 18 and more of them come on jumpers, who the hell cares????

    That's more in combination than we would have gotten out of Frye and Curry!

    I'm not saying that Frye was not a good prospect or that Randolph is the perfect compliment. I liked Frye. He may still develop. But Randolph is already an all star caliber player in the east and improves the Knicks regardless of whether they trade him or not. Plus, he's still young and could even get better. Some players peak in their late 20s. Randolph is only 25 going on 26.

  2. #62
    Superstar ShairanXIII's Avatar
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    randolph is not the same player as curry... yes he's a chubby low post scorer... but like others have said he can put it on the floor, rebound, steal and hit the mid range j...

    i'm with most people here (outside of lil_man) when i say i'm concerned that IT added to our cap beyond 09... but it's addition by subtraction getting rid of francis...

    ideally... i would want us to get kerilenko, gwallace or lewis to balance things out... i think now we have the pieces to make a serious offer for Kobe or KG... but i don't think this move hurts us on the court in any way... we'll be a better team with TWO guys capable of pulling down 10+ rebounds... and TWO capable low post scorers... plus z-bo can set up farther away from the basket to set up the drive or the jumpshot...

    but if we stand pat... we've got several options for the randolph/curry combo to work... left/right block with curry/randolph setting a weak side pick to allow the other to rotate over... high/low combo with one knocking down that kurt thomas/oakley/ewing jumper and the other on the block... have zach start out further away from the basket along the baseline... he can decide whether to attack, shoot, or dump down to EC...

    our defense would not suck either... since our perimeter guys steph, collins, qrich, balkman can all keep their man infront of them on D... and no one will bully randolph AND curry around down low for position... shot blocking aint the only way to be an affective defender...

  3. #63
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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Flexibility, more options, elite free agents.

    If this franchise wanted to build around Curry the right way, the last thing they would do is get Randolph.

    Curry needs to dominate the ball to score. Theres only ONE basketball. I've said the same thing with Francis and Marbury.

    Isiah needs to stop getting players who do the SAME THING. As in Marbury/Robinson/Crawford/. Or Balkman/Chandler/Jefferies or Curry/Randolph. I know Randolph does a bit more than Curry and is the superior player to Curry.

    Having two guys who play the same role will not benefit us offensively nor defensively.

    Lets look at the elite big men in the NBA, and how their teams build around them.

    O'Neil(Haslem)
    Garnett(Griffin)
    O'Neil(Foster)
    Bosh(Rasho)
    Howard(Milicic)
    Ming(Hayes)


    The players that play next to these superstars are known for their defense and intangibles. Superstars are given a lot of responsbility, but they can't do everything by themselves.


    We lack defense and intangibles that will make things easier for Curry. Instead, we made things more complicated.


    The only way we won in this thread is VALUE. This trade is a bad formula for sucess in the future.

    We gotta decide who should be the franchise big man on this roster, Randolph or Curry.

    If I had to pick, I would choose Randolph, who's about the same age as Curry, but much better as a player.

    Curry attempted 12.6 shots a game. he scored 19 points a game. Thats effeciency, theres a reason why low post scoring is highly coveted.
    Jamal jacked up 17 shots a game, we can take a couple possesions from him + fryes rare touches,francis retarded attempts, marbury will sacrifice becuase he did it for eddie and jamal this year. steph is at a point where he justs wants to win before hes done.

    Sorry, i just dont buy this THERES ONLY ONE BASKETBALL thing. Every team has 3 offensive weapons that will almost always run the offensive thru. look at san anton, they dont run any plays for bowen but he gets points for knocking his shots and being at the right place. timmy, parker and ginu run the offense.
    Let curry, zach, marbury/jamal (toss up to me) run the offense. Isnt that how its supposed to be? ur best O players running the offense?

  4. #64
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    Originally Posted by Isiah's Advocate 33
    A more accurate comparison is..... Sprewell and Houston, again not a perfect compliment to each other by no means, but not totaly conteractive.

    Now another Francis and Steph duo would be if we added Shaq to team up w/ Eddy

    So to wrap things up

    Zach and Eddy = Houston and Spree or Jefferson and Carter

    Shap and Eddy = Marbury Francis

    I'm totally sold on it working, but we'll see after the first couple of weeks into the season.
    What I asked was "when was the last time 2 primarily post players played on the same team and that team was sucessful." you didn't mention post players

    Originally Posted by wymm
    Not that I'm putting Curry and Randolph on the same level, but I think David Robinson and Tim Duncan did a pretty good job together.
    This is actually a good example with the exception that Robinson wasn't in his prime when Duncan was selected by the Spurs and basically deffered to Duncan. But nonetheless this was a good selection and I will concede that

  5. #65
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    olajuwan/sampson in Hou... mchhale/parish in Bos... Sheed/Brian Grant in Por... it can happen... but it's rare...

  6. #66
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    Originally Posted by lilman_bklyn
    You know what I'm getting real sick of? A Knicks team that looks good on paper. On paper a player scoring 24ppg along side a player scoring 20ppg along with other **** looks great... But there comes a time when chemistry is needed. I can't believe i'm agreeing with metro but he is right.. you don't get a player that does the same exact thing as your star in order to compliment him. I want someone to tell me the last time 2 primarilt post players played on the same team and that team was sucessful. I want you all to dig into your memory banks and find a successful team, not even a championship team. It doesn't friggin work.
    GiantsKnickFan stated "He can consistently hit jumpers 15-18ft away." This may be all true and all, but what's even more true is the majority of his 24ppg came in the paint. So if he can or can't hit that 15-18 foot J is really no concern when the fact of the matter is, he is comfortable 'in the paint and thats where most of his points come from. he also said "now you take the pressure of him to have to score with 3 DEFENDERS ALWAYS ON HIM. He can pass it out, it will rotate to the other side because Zach is lefty and can dominate the weakside a la carlos boozer." I don't understand how exactly this is suppose to work. Boozer is the primary post player on the Jazz and the movement offense that is run by the Jazz gets Boozer those open shots from the free throw in... I don't know if you watched the Knicks last season, but we don't do that. So when Zach is chillin on the left side of the Paint and Curry is on the right, I guess the defenders are going to move out the way just so Eddy can pass the ball to Zach right, or maybe Curry can just pass the ball through the defenders from the right side of the paint to Zach on the left side. Please write up a play on how this works because i'm not understanding your concept.

    The fact of the matter is the knicks have good players, and the parts to possibly make them a very good team Steph @ point, Lee @ PF, Curry @ Center, getting a Shooter or SHot blocker would have improved the Knicks 10 fold in my opinion.

    Like I stated before, the trade is good because the Knicks were able to get rid of Francis, and clear up the guard situation for the most part. But the trade only improves the Knicks on Paper.
    Wouldnt getting ur shot blocking forward/center and 3pt shooting G/SF or true point G also be just trying to "look" better on paper as well?
    We can get a shot blocker but then what happens on the O end? same as we had with frye, instability and inconsistancy.
    Besides theo ratliff, (and sean williams was gone b4 we could have had a choice to draft him) there arent many available shot blocking PF.Cs just waiting to be acquired. Unless u wanna bring in dikembe at 85yrs old.
    Unless KG, Ben Wallace, Duncan coming here to play D we werent going to get much better. Also, 1 very good defensive player only makes so much of an impact. its team defense that is important. ie- cleveland, 4th or 5th best defense with no true shot blocker (z averages 1.3blocks a game)

    with randolph we add more positive and EFFIECIENT offensive skills. Everyones complaining about ONE BASKETBALL and possesions but randolph only took 18 shots a game. Channing took 10 shots a game. It would be anarchy gettin zach 8 more shots in a game will it?

    And you should look into Nichol's Orlando camp. Thats where the 3's will come from. Hes been in cuse for 4 years, hes ready to contribute with his set of skills like balkman and collins were ready with their skills.
    And when i meant similar to boozer i meant his affect on teams with his ability to finish strongly with his left, not style of play.
    We know curry has to improve his passing from double teams, but are seriously going to think that he wont improve a minor detail like that? i mean last year he was nearly useless. Unless the knicks wanted a charge called for fun. His hard work still hasnt paid off because hes only 24 and still improving. People need to realize that we havent seen eddie's peak yet. he could barely stay on the floor and actually became RELEVANT! Give him some slack to improve on that, if he doenst, then we should bash him. But it doesnt make sense to do that with such a young player who has shown everyone (haters & homers alike) that he CAN improve, and now that he is said to be adding a 10-12ft jumper should only make him a better player.

  7. #67
    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lilman_bklyn
    Maybe i'm blind.. But I still don't see how adding Randolph makes the Knicks a better team. As I have stated previously, NY fans are so fickle. The fact of the matter is, if this trade was done last season, people would have been up in arms. Channing Frye was on the all rookie first team last year , i wasn't hearing anyone talking about him being one demensional then. You guys are missing the main point... there are two guys on this team that score 20ppg and both of them score those 20ppg in the paint. do you understand that there is only one ball to go around. The greatest offensive play caller would have a hard time figuring out how Curry and Randolph co-exist and have them both average anywhere near what they did last season. As knicklover said, if they would have recieved a Randolph quality 3, this trade would be awesome, and who knows, maybe Randolph will be sent packing soon for that quality 3 or a superstar, but I am commenting on what we have now.

    Steph
    Craw
    Q-Rich
    Randolph
    Curry

    does not make the knicks better
    We got Randolph for peanuts. Francis was dead weight and Frye as much as I liked him was a so so player. We needed a solid all around PF and we've got that in Randolph. The only void at this point is defense which nether Randolph or Curry provide at this point. Still that doesn't mean that it was a bad trade. We rid our selves of shelved players and fill one of two missing voids. By missing voids I mean defense and the need for a PF. One out of two aint bad.

  8. #68
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    Why do I have a feeling we're going to lead the NBA in turnovers this season?

    Everyteam has 3 offensive weapons? Phoneix and many other teams would disagree. Mostly everyone in the NBA is an offensive weapon.


    You named the Spurs. The Spurs are the anti Knicks. They do everything different than what we do, but they get superior results.

    Offense by be runned by your best offensive player. Who would that be? Curry, Randolph?

    Then Curry led an average 97 ppg Knicks team
    Randolph led a terrible 94 ppg Blazers team.

    They're good offensive players, but don't have the ability to LEAD an elite or good offense. Average at most, if an offense is runned threw them.


    Understand something. Randolph and Curry will slow down the offense as much as possible with their style of play.

    They're pure half court players. This benefits Marbury, a half court PG, I guess we're building a half court team, but I'm not sure.
    Last edited by metrocard; Jul 02, 2007 at 01:31.

  9. #69
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    I saw Eddy Curry run the floor last year. So, now cause we got Zach Randolph he's gonna stop running? Half court teams that occassionally run win championships. Feel free to go see the 06-07 Spurs (Primarily a half court team) and the 06-06 Heat (another team that occassionally ran, but was committed to the half court). Championship teams have one thing primarily in common: They excel in a half court setting. The Knicks should look to use more clock anyways. The longer we possess the ball, the better the quality of shot we'll get based on fluidity and ball movement. What fan doesn't want to see that? Nobody run the ball all the time. Teams that depend on that don't win. If I'm wrong, someone tell me when Phoenix last won the NBA title with there style of play. How about the Mavericks? The run an gun system always runs out of gun. When it does, it's ugly. With Zach and his jumper, most team won't be able to double Curry. It'll be pick your poison. Curry, Marbury, or Randolph.

  10. #70
    Superstar ShairanXIII's Avatar
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    this will either prove IT was secretly a genius all along... or blow up in our face... like carpy said... run and gun teams NEVER win championships if they don't have a credible half court offense... these knicks have the athletes that can run a break jones, lee, balkman, crawford, steph... and the bangers that can work efficiently in the half court... curry, randolph, steph... let's be optimistic with what we have for now... or hope that IT has more is stock for everyone...

  11. #71
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    Originally Posted by dr.carpy
    I saw Eddy Curry run the floor last year. So, now cause we got Zach Randolph he's gonna stop running? Half court teams that occassionally run win championships. Feel free to go see the 06-07 Spurs (Primarily a half court team) and the 06-06 Heat (another team that occassionally ran, but was committed to the half court). Championship teams have one thing primarily in common: They excel in a half court setting. The Knicks should look to use more clock anyways. The longer we possess the ball, the better the quality of shot we'll get based on fluidity and ball movement. What fan doesn't want to see that? Nobody run the ball all the time. Teams that depend on that don't win. If I'm wrong, someone tell me when Phoenix last won the NBA title with there style of play. How about the Mavericks? The run an gun system always runs out of gun. When it does, it's ugly. With Zach and his jumper, most team won't be able to double Curry. It'll be pick your poison. Curry, Marbury, or Randolph.
    You didn't state that clearly, you forgot a very important part. Half court setting with dominant big men who pass, defended, and create open opportunities for their teammates.

    We've already seen that. We were too obvious and cheap on offense last year. These were the majority of our plays.

    1. Pound it into Curry. Doesnt matter if hes triple teamed force the ball in there anyway. Leads to 5-10 turnovers a game.
    2. Crawford freelance. Stutterstep, Crossover, launch 20 foot fadeaway. Leads to some nasty FG nights of 4-22 for example.
    3. Marbury freelance. Marbury control all game gun away for 40. Interestingly when he does this its at a very high percentage. Unfortunately this means the entire team is frozen out so if he cant do it himself then we lose.
    4. Frye pump fake 18 foot jump shot on the right high block. What is it with this play that sucks so bad? It just reeked of soft. It will go in a few times then it wont. Its very kurt thomas like where if the shot is there, great, if not, hes useless.
    5. Francis chicken head cut off routine. Pound the ball for 22 seconds and either launch a disgusting shot or whip the ball at a teammate as the shot clock expires.
    6. Malik Rose post up or deep jump shot (can I just throw up?)
    7. Jerome James featured in the post (sadly, when he does this, it actually looks good. Is this because everything else looks so damn BAD?)
    8. Jared Jeffries offensive juggernaut. Oh god I cant take this anymore when this guy goes off on his own and either launches a deep shot with no chance or goes in and bricks a layup against a 6' tall guard.

    We're a poor half court team though. We don't have a Shaq or Duncan.

    We need to run the ball more often.

    Phoneix and Mavericks are one of the most elite teams in the NBA, you wouldn't mind having their sucess? Hell, I don't know about you, but I don't want a 30 win team every year. This is my team and I would much prefer 50-60 win teams.

    Once Duncan and Shaq retires(Shaq is getting very close, the result is you see more teams trying to copy Phoneix's system)

    Bottom line is, you don't run a half court offense through Curry and expect a productive winning team. Why?
    -Slows down the ball movement.
    -Unlike Duncan and Shaq, Curry is the worst passer at his position and is a black hole on our offense
    -We're already a poor transition defense team, Curry's turnovers make easy baskets for the opponent team
    -predictable offensive plays


    I don't know if you watched the Knicks this season, but we played BEST when we ran the ball and controlled the tempo of the game. I much rather have Marbury control the offense and more ball movement than just throw it to Curry all the time. Once Curry starts passing and defending more, then he should get more touches. Why award him for nothing? Curry has the ability to defend and pass, I've seen it with my own eyes.

    Ball movement and defense won the Spurs those championships. Having Randolph and Curry in your frontcourt won't get you close to that level.

    We upgraded talent wise, and we definately got more value, which is I'm not mad about this trade. But we're not even a competitive team yet until we establish what kind of team we are.

    It just seems Isiah trades for talented players and throw them on the court together, not caring who will compliment each other. Good GM's don't do that.

  12. #72
    Your Best Bet is B Ez datruth's Avatar
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    well at least zach randolph knows how to pass out the double team, i hope the knicks staff is stressing dat wit eddy curry wit other few things like defense(at least being a presence would be fine)

  13. #73
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    Eddie Curry black hole? just becuase his assists arent up? he only took 12.6 shots a game. Upsurd.
    Reality- Curry does need to improve his passing, but its not like he wouldnt find the open man, the problem was that the open man would be frye or jeffries or balkman or mardy for 15-18 footers or 3's that would go down 1 out every 100 attempts or so.

  14. #74
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    Originally Posted by GiantsKnickFan
    Eddie Curry black hole? just becuase his assists arent up? he only took 12.6 shots a game. Upsurd.
    Reality- Curry does need to improve his passing, but its not like he wouldnt find the open man, the problem was that the open man would be frye or jeffries or balkman or mardy for 15-18 footers or 3's that would go down 1 out every 100 attempts or so.
    If you didn't know what blackhole meant, I'll define it for you.

    Blackhole in the offense means when you pass it to one player, and you'll never see the ball again. That player kills ball movement and opportunities for open shots.

    Curry rarely passed out of double teams, lets be serious now and not blame other players for his flaws.

    No one is talking about numbers here, its just observations from the games we've watched this season.

  15. #75
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    Maybe now we can trade Marbury and Randolph for Odom and Kobe =)

    Starting 5 of:

    Jamal Crawford
    Kobe Bryant
    Lamar Odom
    David Lee
    Eddy Curry

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