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Thread: Isiah thomas, spots potential!

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    Superstar jzero29's Avatar
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    Default Isiah thomas, spots potential!

    Isiah thomas, through his draft picks shows us he is a good judge of player potential before they come into the league. Picks like robinson, balkman, lee and frye. Trevor ariza. Jackie buttler. He spots potential to develope young players. Eddy curry is also considered young. due to the fact he's about same age as lee and frye.
    What he's not good at is judging potential of established NBA players. Check out his signings and trades...Fransis? crawford? Q-rich? jerome james! But james was such a big mistake. I mean they each have talent and are good individual players(except james). But take for instance:

    q-rich - over paid sign and trade, good sg, not all-star money!
    Fransis - fading all-star talent
    Crawford -over paid avg shooting guard whose potential is at it's max, for past 4 yrs he's leveled of and isn't getting better. Great back up, not all star money
    Jerome James - one good playoff game all season and zeke throws a boat load at him!!! uhm, great bench warmer! He sure holds down his spot on the bench like nobody I've ever seen! Can't forget about the cap space he locks up down! or how well he covers his spot on the IR. Wish he could apply his lock down and cover skills to NBA basket ball.Not worth allstar money he gets, and not worth avg pay, and not worth rookie pay and not worth Mcdonald employee starting salary.
    Marbury - he's another player thats good but hasn't produced in NY(kinda hate to lump him in)
    Jarred jefferies - what has he done for us? Or to prove he deserves his contract!
    Curry- I can't say he isn't worth the money, he is, zekes best trade! kind of.It's his trade that yeilded the most talent on our end. We'll see what becomes of the two 1st round draft picks we sent Chicago and they were high.

    Does anyone know what our salary cap would be if we diodn't have these players? If you minus his signings& trades and just took his draft picks he's a pheonominal judge of talent. Say we kept marbury and curry. Would we have been under the cap, without crawford, fransis, q-rich and jarred jefferis and jerome james? Could we haev made a play for a big name this summer? like rashard lewis? ray allen? grant hill(kinda fading talent, but still good)

    I also don't think he has a vision of what an NBA team needs, he says he'd like to be like Phoenix, I can see how he collected versatile players like crawford, q-rich from phoenix, jefferies but he never got that point guard that made a role player like q-rich, seem so versatile, like steve nash does to everyone he plays with. Like Jason kidd does to jason richardson and revived vince carters career. He put to many i need the ball to play well guys on the same team, he's got to many guys that need to many shots to share the ball right. You need those no-name role players that shoot well, but not often. You need a guy like malik rose who just plays hard. they keep you under the cap and performing well

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    I think ur under-estimating how valuable Q-Rich is. Is problem is that he's too injury prone. But when hes healthy, hes our best defender, and best 3pt shooter.
    Plus he has very little holes in his game, he can post players up, take bigger guys off the dribble, can catch and shoot with the best in this league.
    And Jackie Butler was a larry brown signing. he was a FA rookie. not drafted. Hence Popavich gives butler a ring cuase his mentor LB said hes a good kid. Then they ship him to houston lol. Isiah never liked butler becuas LB thought he could be better than curry.

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    Your Best Bet is B Ez datruth's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jzero29
    Isiah thomas, through his draft picks shows us he is a good judge of player potential before they come into the league. Picks like robinson, balkman, lee and frye. Trevor ariza. Jackie buttler. He spots potential to develope young players. Eddy curry is also considered young. due to the fact he's about same age as lee and frye.
    What he's not good at is judging potential of established NBA players. Check out his signings and trades...Fransis? crawford? Q-rich? jerome james! But james was such a big mistake. I mean they each have talent and are good individual players(except james). But take for instance:

    q-rich - over paid sign and trade, good sg, not all-star money!
    Fransis - fading all-star talent
    Crawford -over paid avg shooting guard whose potential is at it's max, for past 4 yrs he's leveled of and isn't getting better. Great back up, not all star money
    Jerome James - one good playoff game all season and zeke throws a boat load at him!!! uhm, great bench warmer! He sure holds down his spot on the bench like nobody I've ever seen! Can't forget about the cap space he locks up down! or how well he covers his spot on the IR. Wish he could apply his lock down and cover skills to NBA basket ball.Not worth allstar money he gets, and not worth avg pay, and not worth rookie pay and not worth Mcdonald employee starting salary.
    Marbury - he's another player thats good but hasn't produced in NY(kinda hate to lump him in)
    Jarred jefferies - what has he done for us? Or to prove he deserves his contract!
    Curry- I can't say he isn't worth the money, he is, zekes best trade! kind of.It's his trade that yeilded the most talent on our end. We'll see what becomes of the two 1st round draft picks we sent Chicago and they were high.

    Does anyone know what our salary cap would be if we diodn't have these players? If you minus his signings& trades and just took his draft picks he's a pheonominal judge of talent. Say we kept marbury and curry. Would we have been under the cap, without crawford, fransis, q-rich and jarred jefferis and jerome james? Could we haev made a play for a big name this summer? like rashard lewis? ray allen? grant hill(kinda fading talent, but still good)

    I also don't think he has a vision of what an NBA team needs, he says he'd like to be like Phoenix, I can see how he collected versatile players like crawford, q-rich from phoenix, jefferies but he never got that point guard that made a role player like q-rich, seem so versatile, like steve nash does to everyone he plays with. Like Jason kidd does to jason richardson and revived vince carters career. He put to many i need the ball to play well guys on the same team, he's got to many guys that need to many shots to share the ball right. You need those no-name role players that shoot well, but not often. You need a guy like malik rose who just plays hard. they keep you under the cap and performing well
    isiah actually wanted crawford out of colllege and Q does work when healthy

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    Next season, keep waiting donchris's Avatar
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    This is a good point. If the Knicks actually rebuild and let contracts expire we'd be way under the cap right now. But, NY is not a city you can rebuild in. The fans, the media, all impatient and they want wins yesterday. Even Dolian doesn't demand financial restraint. So if your boss is saying 'win some damn games now' and hands you a blank check what are you going to do? Most of us would do some of what Thomas did.

    Jerome James- Keep in mind this trade was made after Kurt Thomas was traded for Quentin Richardson. We had no center, Curry wasn't yet available and Thomas panicked. So he made an over attempt to out bid Seattle and to this day looks like an ass for it.

    Q Rich- At the time I loved this trade. Kurt Thomas was getting old and had a 'I'm the center of offense' complex. There is something wrong with a teams offense when Thomas is scoring over 20 points in a single game. We got younger, more athletic, and got a great shooter out of the deal. Unfortunately, Richardson has back problems so we've yet to reap the benefits from this trade.

    Eddie Curry- The media will tell you that Thomas gave up too much for Curry. Yet most dominate big men in the league (including Shaq) will tell you that if properly developed Curry has a bright future and may one day become the most dominate center in the league. The Bulls got allot but nothing that panned out to much. With Randolph and Marbury, Curry's got all the pieces he needs to prove he can carry this team to the play offs.

    Zach Randolph- Best trade yet! We got Zach for peanuts. The potential reward is much higher than the risk. No defense? Zach's not the greatest defender but he makes an attempt. Just a huge body in the lane will make his opponents think twice. I like the fact that Randolph can take shots in the perimeter. The coolest thing about our young team is they haven't reached their peek. They will constantly improve and will go to the playoffs.

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    This is a good Point! but not on the behalf of Isiah Thomas, he has created a future losing team just through his trades alone. The Knicks could have received the same LOSING-Seasons if Isiah would have let all the expiring contracts just walk.

    Being a Knick-Fan is different from being a Player-Fan.

    Knick-Fans like myself always want a Person like Isiah Thomas around come draft night for 100% of his input. By the way Isiah picked up a walking Jackie Butler during the midseason while Coach Larry Brown was busy coaching the Pistons to get to be the 1-seeded team in the Eastern Conference. Butler agent is irrelevant. Isiah Thomas eye for young talent for the NBA is outstanding. That will never be said about Isiah talent for NBA Players.

    When Isiah traded the only Knick (Nazr) capable of playing the Center position on the team alongside of C/F-Kurt Thomas the Knicks lost alot of close games that regular season. So Isiah knew he had to get a Center to go along with Marbury & K-Thomas Pick n Roll scoring that was 60% effective on NBA teams. He signed a walking 6.11 Rookie C-Jackie Butler in the midseason, hoping to sign a Veteran NBA Center in the offseason.
    Isiah also had to take note on what the Knicks biggest celebrity Fan Spike Lee made comments about several times "Marbury, Crawford, and Tim Thomas never playing a lick of DEFENSE". Spike Lee never used Kurt Thomas in any of his comments about not playing defense. Kurt Thomas was the best defender on the team then came Junk yard Dog and Ariza.
    On draft night before the Knicks 7th pick Isiah Thomas traded C/F Kurt Thomas. Foolish Move when your in need for a BIGMAN to compliment Kurt Thomas Performance (A Center). Especially when you know your going after 6.11 Channing Frye in the draft. It became very Foolish when Isiah Traded the Best BIGMAN on the Knicks (6.9 Kurt Thomas) for a 6.6 SF-Q.Richardson who just pulled a disapearing act in the Western Conference Finals vs the Spurs when his team the Suns needed him the most to replace an Injured SG-Joe Johnson who was sidelined by a play caused by the Mavs Stackhouse inwhich Jim Jackson had to play both vacant positions (Q.Rich & Joe) to get a WIN to go on to the next series.

    Isiah getting 6.6 SF-Q.Rich and having 6.10 Starter Tim Thomas, and having a nice promising season from 6.7 Rookie SF-Trevor Ariza. Did not make much sense. Here is the kicker, as soon as July 1st came where you could explore the FA Isiah could not wait and was the first to offer a FA a offer sheet which was Jerome James to the MAX MLE.

    Knicks Owner Dolan was not happy with the Knicks previous losing season and hired Coach Larry Brown that offseason for a much better contract than he gave Isiah Thomas. Knowing that Coach Larry Brown will have the same incentive that Coach Pat Riley had when he QUIT the Knicks.

    In the same offseason Isiah Thomas must have felt insecure over the hiring of Larry Brown and went and pulled some BIG Block-Buster Trade for Heart Condition Eddy Curry in the middle of the Preseason Games on the last day of signing unrestricted FA, inwhich NO team in the NBA would touch Curry with a 10 foot pole.

    After all those offseason transactions the Knicks came out with a 23 WIN Season!
    Isiah Thomas was immediatly put on Probation and made to Coach the next season with Buy-Outs of HUGE Contracts of Coach Larry Brown, Jalen Rose, and Mo Taylor all Knick Failures did not help matters in Isiah Thomas defense.

    The Knick Team Roster looked like they were going to help Isiah Thomas out at the Start of the 2006-7 season, but Isiah Thomas messed that up (Isiah should have never been granted to use the MLE that offseason to sign Jared Jefferies) with Poor Coaching using Francis & Jefferies in the Starting Lineup.

    Now this offseason, Isiah traded away Francis for Zack Randolph who needs to take 19 shots per game to average 23 points, plus need 35 MPG to average 10 rebounds.
    It makes me wonder if David Lee was told to shoot 19 shots per game and given 35 MPG how many points and rebounds would he average? I do recall one game last season where David Lee played 33 minutes and grabbed 20 rebounds. And David Lee was not traded for but a draft pick.

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    Superstar jzero29's Avatar
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    Nyk Logo my point

    ,y point ws that isiahs signings and trades, don't really every seem to pan out. besides the curry deal. his signings and trades always bring huge contracts for under achieving players. These players have talent, i like q-rich, he just hasn't produced. Maybe it's because of his back maybe it's because of his roll or whatever. Bottom line he hasn't produced. The only one that has so far is Curry. But he struggled alot at end of season, most say because of jamaal crawford, or could it be the over weight Curry was fatigued?
    I'm excited about the Zach randolph trade, just like i was excited about the marbury, crawford, fransis, jerome james, q-rich and jarred jefferies signings/trades...but those all ended with the same old disapointing results and a lot of salary over the cap.
    His drafting is phenominal. I just wish he could translate it to trades/singnings

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    ummm... let's not forget the draft picks that we got in the trades as well...

    Kurt Thomas - Q-Rich & Nate Robinson

    Nazr Muhammed - David Lee & Malik Rose

    and everyone is forgetting that when we signed Jamal, he was supposed to be our BACK UP... but H20's knees were already done for...

    Jerome James and Jared Jeffries I fault him for... since Diop was available when James was (and cheaper) and we had absolutely no need for Jared Jeffries...

    The biggest problem with the IT era though... is the coaching carousel... Chaney, Wilkens, Herb, Larry, IT... 5 coaches... 4 years... never a good sign... hopefully... IT will relinquish to Herb once the season is over (like Pat Riley did with SVG)...

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    I did not want to mention the coaches Isiah had,

    Isiah should have let Coach Chaney finish the 2003-4 season with the same players Laydumb left him. Or trade the final expiring contracts players when they are most valuable on the trading-Deadline.
    The only trade Isiah Thomas should've done in the 2003-4 season was for Rasheed Wallace.

    The way Zeke Fired Coach Chaney was a disgrace to this Knick Team.
    And to the Knick Players that admired him.
    There was no way that any of the Knick new players (KVH, Mutombo, Mcdyess, and F.Will) and Chaney previous season Players were going to give Zeke a WINNING Season the way he Fired Coach Chaney.
    Assistant Coach Herb Williams should have quit the next day after the firing of Chaney.
    I had to feel for Coach Lenny Wilkins who had to endure the Laydumb Knick Players dislike for Isiah Thomas. But then again, Lenny was a fool too for taking the Knicks coaching job when knowing how the players felt, plus that Franchise Player Allan Houston is not going to play for Isiah Thomas or any coach that he get. You have to give it to Allan Houston he did it better than Vince Carter did it on the Toronto Rapters.

    It should have amazed every Knick-Fan when NBA David Stern made the Allan Houston-Buy-Out that offseason so teams wont have to pay Luxury-Tax on the player they Buy-Out. And the Knicks did not buy-out Allan Houston that offseason. WHY? Do anyone recall what Coach Larry Brown said after the Knicks Training-Camp was over? Coach Larry Brown Publically said, "The BEST Player on this Knick Team is Allan Houston", hoping that Allan Houston would suit up and play for him.

    Lenny Wilkins is the Seattle Sonics G.M. now and it look like he is much wiser than Isiah when it comes to cleanning house for a new future young team for training camp by getting rid of all the Sonics Franchise players to prevent any Chaos in the lockerroom. Although the Sonics is a losing team now Lenny got 3 years to fix it up or lose Durant in the FA market.

    I have to agree the Major Knick Problem is FIVE coaches in FOUR seasons.

    The biggest problem with the IT era though... is the coaching carousel... Chaney, Wilkens, Herb, Larry, IT... 5 coaches... 4 years... never a good sign... hopefully... IT will relinquish to Herb once the season is over (like Pat Riley did with SVG)...

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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    I did not want to mention the coaches Isiah had,

    Isiah should have let Coach Chaney finish the 2003-4 season with the same players Laydumb left him. Or trade the final expiring contracts players when they are most valuable on the trading-Deadline.
    The only trade Isiah Thomas should've done in the 2003-4 season was for Rasheed Wallace.

    The way Zeke Fired Coach Chaney was a disgrace to this Knick Team.
    And to the Knick Players that admired him.
    There was no way that any of the Knick new players (KVH, Mutombo, Mcdyess, and F.Will) and Chaney previous season Players were going to give Zeke a WINNING Season the way he Fired Coach Chaney.
    Assistant Coach Herb Williams should have quit the next day after the firing of Chaney.
    I had to feel for Coach Lenny Wilkins who had to endure the Laydumb Knick Players dislike for Isiah Thomas. But then again, Lenny was a fool too for taking the Knicks coaching job when knowing how the players felt, plus that Franchise Player Allan Houston is not going to play for Isiah Thomas or any coach that he get. You have to give it to Allan Houston he did it better than Vince Carter did it on the Toronto Rapters.

    It should have amazed every Knick-Fan when NBA David Stern made the Allan Houston-Buy-Out that offseason so teams wont have to pay Luxury-Tax on the player they Buy-Out. And the Knicks did not buy-out Allan Houston that offseason. WHY? Do anyone recall what Coach Larry Brown said after the Knicks Training-Camp was over? Coach Larry Brown Publically said, "The BEST Player on this Knick Team is Allan Houston", hoping that Allan Houston would suit up and play for him.

    Lenny Wilkins is the Seattle Sonics G.M. now and it look like he is much wiser than Isiah when it comes to cleanning house for a new future young team for training camp by getting rid of all the Sonics Franchise players to prevent any Chaos in the lockerroom. Although the Sonics is a losing team now Lenny got 3 years to fix it up or lose Durant in the FA market.

    I have to agree the Major Knick Problem is FIVE coaches in FOUR seasons.
    Sam Presti is the Sonics GM. Lenny was a figurehead (VP of something or the other) who was hired 2 months b4 the lottery and got fired 2 weeks b4 the draft. Time has def passed Lenny Wilkins, hes a HOF coach, but he needs to just retire.

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    Nyk Logo Sonics

    The Sonics state of affairs. They have a ton of fresh young talent. maybe one of their young players that they have will develope into a star to go along w/Durant who is not asured of reaching star stauts but def, has potential. The other thing is, they have to have a ton of cap room. Next They probably will struggle this upcoming year being in the tough western confrence. So next season, they are looking at another high draft pick and having a boat load to toss around! So worse case senario, they have a young prospect step up this year with durant and don't land another high draft pick. They will still be able to get some stud free agents and possibly. Another Impact rookie could be late in draft as well. Stud role players like lee and balkman, were near end of 1st round. The GM is genius. He's put seatle in position to go through the entire rebuilding process in about a year. getting ride of Allens contract and not resigning Lewis. It will allow Durant to develope into the man this year.(not guarented). And clear cap room. A lesson kicks desperately need.

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    Default This bothers me about Zeke

    Originally Posted by ShairanXIII
    ummm... let's not forget the draft picks that we got in the trades as well...

    Kurt Thomas - Q-Rich & Nate Robinson

    Nazr Muhammed - David Lee & Malik Rose

    and everyone is forgetting that when we signed Jamal, he was supposed to be our BACK UP... but H20's knees were already done for...

    Jerome James and Jared Jeffries I fault him for... since Diop was available when James was (and cheaper) and we had absolutely no need for Jared Jeffries

    The biggest problem with the IT era though... is the coaching carousel... Chaney, Wilkens, Herb, Larry, IT... 5 coaches... 4 years... never a good sign... hopefully... IT will relinquish to Herb once the season is over (like Pat Riley did with SVG)...

    The above statement is the Main thing that bothers me the most about Isiah Thomas.
    His best quality as the Knick G.M. is his eye for picking up great young talent for the NBA.
    When he arrived as the Knick G.M. and thought the team was bad why did'nt he trade for first round picks with all the final season expiring contracts (Mcdyess, Kurt Thomas, Doleac, and Ward) he had and let the season play out for a Lottery Pick if he thought the team was so bad???

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    Kiaman... because according to him (and I'm sure Jim Dolan)... the City wouldn't stand a rebuilding team...

    Kiyaman... Chaney was brought in at the wrong time... I always thought we shoulda signed Silas... but hiring Wilkens and Brown were also blunders... we should have stuck with Herb... I don;t think I'll ever change that stance...

    J Zero... i doubt Seattle will rebuild in 1 year in the west with such a young core... they gotta at least wait another 2 or 3 seasons for a good free agent... although next season's crop of free agents is supposed to be crazy... KG... TD... etc...

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    Isiah has basically an impeccable draft record. That being the case we are 2 players over the limit. So i think if we can't trade for anyone substantial, we should ship out some people for more draft picks. Without a player like Q, or Jamal (even tho i like Q, i'm aware both have **** contracts considering who they are), i still think this is a playoff team this year. Just need to find potential suitors for this type of deal.

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    Originally Posted by clumsy
    Isiah has basically an impeccable draft record. That being the case we are 2 players over the limit. So i think if we can't trade for anyone substantial, we should ship out some people for more draft picks. Without a player like Q, or Jamal (even tho i like Q, i'm aware both have **** contracts considering who they are), i still think this is a playoff team this year. Just need to find potential suitors for this type of deal.
    the 8mil that Q and craw make is alot now, but look at the contract given out these days. 3yrs/21 mil for Darko?? Thats not terrible but 7mil a yr for a former high pick who's best yr was backing up dwight howard?
    look at the contract Miki Moore got from SAC, he only had 1 yr!! he was a bum b4 he met jason kidd. Atleast Q, and Craw werent jerome james type players that only play well during contract yrs. They've both been servicable in their careers.

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    Nyk Logo Sonics rebuild

    Originally Posted by ShairanXIII
    J Zero... i doubt Seattle will rebuild in 1 year in the west with such a young core... they gotta at least wait another 2 or 3 seasons for a good free agent... although next season's crop of free agents is supposed to be crazy... KG... TD... etc...
    You are right sort of, they already have been rebuilding. They haven't made playoffs in two years. But are you telling me, if durant establishes himself(if), and green, developes (5th or 6th overall pick?)then they have a shot at KG? Duncan, probably just resigns with SA. That having Durant and KG on a team wouldn't mean major problems? Now think if some of there other young prospects step up, Say a guy like balkman, except he got drafted where balkman would have got drafted(much later in draft, if at all) and they have Zerbiak, kurt thomas, wilcox(decent), Delonte west(talented) Ridnour(decent/good,pg) Jeff green. They have a good mix of guys, if they tack on a guy like KG they's be a contender. They'd have wilcox Center KG pf KDurant SF Dalante west or Ridnour PG. Maybe a SG developes in there system maybe durant or green at sg, this year, and thomas zerbiack off bench along with whichever doesn't start out of ridnour and west. The team would have ridiculous size! and they wouldn't be giving up speed with durant and green and KG.
    That doesn't seem like much rebuilding time to me. They just have to land a guy like KG or less likely Duncan. there is a lot of if's but the potential is there. I think KG is going to be looking for a team to win, and not as important the dollars. But everytime i say that, guys always go to high bidder.

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