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Thread: can eddie and zach mix?

  1. #46
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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Roco, it wasn't a fact Nazr and Sweetney was going to be our future 4. Especially with those guys being injury prone, that would of been replaced in the near future.
    My point is that we had an entirely different team that we had 3 years ago. Back then, we were trying to acquire more talent. Now we're talking about the realistic possibility of playoffs with a relatively young team.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    You have to recognize this isn't the best process for the team by ignoring the weaknesses each season, understand? If you can't put yourself together and understand that, then you're hopeless.
    Now you're going to make me sound like a radical Isiah-apologist. But here goes:

    I had a problem with the Jerome James move. But that was a gamble, and it didn't pan out. Simple as that. Trading for Francis? Larry Brown convinced Isiah that Francis was what the Knicks needed, and I hated to see Trevor Ariza go.

    But let's start from the top.

    After Marbury:

    TT and Nazr - We traded a starter and a backup for two starters. Mutombo was effective, but we didn't really know how much longer he'd last. This also allowed us to keep KT at the 4 when Mutombo would leave.

    Jamal Crawford- When we traded for him, Isiah was trying to create a dynamic three guard rotation. Good idea, but then Allan Houston became damaged goods, and Crawford ended up playing way more than expected.

    What weakness were we addressing? If you don't remember, we had just made the playoffs and were splitting time between Shandon Anderson and Penny Hardaway in a series which we got swept. Shandon worked hard, but he just wasn't the capable scorer that we needed. Jamal Crawford, a scoring combo guard fresh off of a 17 ppg season, was available and Isiah took advantage of that opportunity.

    Malik Rose- We got rid of Nazr, and I feared we were back at the "no true center" days. But Isiah inquired for two first rounders in the deal, which ultimately became David Lee and Mardy Collins.

    Weaknesses? We acquired a locker room presence from a winning team. Even today, Malik's still for whatever is good for the team.

    Quentin Richardson and a draft pick - Kurt Thomas was already getting old, and now we were getting a 25 year old G/F and a draft pick.

    Weaknesses? We acquired the league leader in 3 pt field goals made and got younger by adding a draft pick.

    Eddy Curry - People can complain about the lottery picks all they want to. Mike Sweetney isn't doing so great in Chicago and Tim Thomas isn't doing anything incredible in Clipperland. Joakim Noah and Tyrus Thomas or Eddy Curry, Renaldo Balkman, and Wilson Chandler? I'll take the latter.

    Weaknesses? Who was the last real center that we could invest our future in? It wasn't Mutombo.

    We had three draft picks in 2005 and two more in 2006. We were getting younger.

    Jared Jeffries - Don't bag on him yet. It's taken Curry and Q-Rich one season each to really adjust, and I think we owe Jared the same opportunity.

    Weaknesses? Perimeter defense was an issue, and we acquired a 6'11 player who started on a playoff team surrounded by three starters who were bona fide scorers. Jeffries had a defensive role. Can you understand Isiah's position when he went after Jeffries?

    Zach Randolph - I liked Francis and Frye, but when you have the ability to upgrade and solidify the starting 4 position, then I can't see why you don't take advantage of it.

    Weaknesses? Now here i'm supposed to tell you why he's perfect for us right? Wrong. He's a guy with good range on his jumper, a double-double machine last season, creative offensive post player who got to the line and shot 80% from the line. Can he help? We'll see.

    Should I mention the fact that Isiah refused to part with David Lee (prior to the breakout season) when we were offered Theo Ratliff from the Blazers? Or would you have rather addressed a weakness that quickly and mortgaged a piece of the future?

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    One on one is an irrelevant point. You held a pointless argument that turned out to be wrong and my argument turned out to be right, again. My fortune has been sweet, you have to admit. Marbury is one of my favorite players in the league, he has matured as an overall PG, but was never at a MVP status, all star yes. But never at a MVP status. You have to discredit Nash's MVP because thats how weak your argument is. Right now, Marbury and Nash no comparison really. Nash is the first option you want at PG for a winning formula. Curry at center isn't a player you want for winning, more so for one on one situations that can either hurt or help the team.
    What point? One-on-one wasn't the point. It looks like you interpreted it as me saying, "Nash said Marbury could beat him one-on-one, and therefore Marbury is better than Nash." I wasn't saying that. Look, Kevin Garnett has won the MVP before right? But what happened last season? Was Garnett in the same situation last season as he was during his MVP year? Nash has found himself in the best situation with players who can run with him and fit his style of play. I'm not discrediting his MVP status.

    You mentioned Phoenix as being a great team, but what have you heard about their defense?

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    I don't see it working, and you haven't provided any facts that it will, so why should I agree with you when you're not bringing up any points? No need really to get frustrated about it, I defended my side of the argument of this topic, I'm still waiting for a nice explanation on how Randolph is going to answer our interior defense problems, ball movement and turnovers. That has yet been explained by any Isiahsexual here, including you my friend. And the answer isn't "Randolph dominated Tim Duncan and Amare Stoudimire." Lets be more logical here.
    Bring in a guy like Dwyane Wade, and I bet you'd be concerned about how this addresses our turnover problem. I think we're going to be a team prided on team defense. Ball movement? Well I told you about how we had nearly 8 guys in double figure scoring, so I'm confident that our rotational guys will get their share. Turnovers? What's the answer? Play smart. Neither you or I could say, we just traded for "some guy", and then say that we'll have less turnovers next season. Your concerns are legitimate, but we just don't see eye to eye on this.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Roco, everyone in the Jaber Rouzbahani thread agreed with me. No one was really backing your random comments. You will disagree on anything. This was when Knicks were desperate for a center. I was the only person in the forum who was a valuable source for international prospects. Jaber Rouzbahani isn't even 25 yet, so who knows where he'll end up. Peter John Ramos is hopeless. Good player in the NBDL though. But I'm not going to say much here since I understand your knowledge on international or foreign leagues is very limited. Back to the NBA and our Knicks.
    How modest of you. You're right, I don't follow international or foreign leagues. But you tell me, are they doing anything significant in the NBA? Who's the next Peter John Ramos? And why make the excuse that "Jaber Rouzbahani isn't even 25 yet"? Eddy Curry wasn't even 25 last season, and there was talk by people non-affiliated with the Knicks that he was an all-star caliber player. My point is that there were many things that you and I zealously argued, and you'll likely find holes in either argument sooner or later. So if you're going to throw out my response toward you trying to find some argument I made three years ago, then allow me to do the same.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    You want to explain WHY Randolph is such a "winning" player? Why can't you be a man and just agree with the facts. Randolph can only be the primary option of a low scoring offense that is a lottery team. Thats a fact. Thats been his history in the NBA as a starter. You can't compare Allen and Kevin Garnett because both Ray Allen (against the 76ers) and Kevin Garnett were in the conference finals and both teams came very close to making the NBA Finals.
    A ha! So now it's about how Garnett and Allen at their best can help the Celtics, but you don't grant Randolph the same chance to show how he can help us at his best.

    According to your logic, if the player hasn't got it done by age 25, then screw them? Right? No, I don't think that that was what you were trying to say, so don't try to miscontrue what I was saying. Allen made the conference finals with the Bucks. What happened to him after that? Allen has had one winning season in Seattle since he left Milwaukee. What about Garnett? One Western conference finals appearance, seven first round exits.

    Does this prevent me from saying that Garnett or Allen wouldn't be able to help the Knicks? No, because I'm not going to think like you on this one.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    So whats your argument here? KG and Allen gives their teams a chance to compete, Randolph has never in his career. Now they're both on the same team, how sick is that, with another elite all star Paul Pierce. That fact is they have a history of being highly competitive players, and even better when they're in the playoffs. You can't say that about Randolph. To disagree, you would have to discredit Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen and desperately try to raise Randolph's status higher than those two. I wouldn't be surprise you've said sillier things in the past. Theres a point where homerism needs to stop. I constantly defend my Knicks from foolish Raptors and Bulls fans, but I hate to see Isiahsexuals hype up the team so ignorantly and homerishly...its like where do you guys get your facts from? Its either what ifs or a prediction in the future. Really cliche and boring.
    My point is that Randolph can find a way to use his strengths to help our team. What did Jason Williams, Antoine Walker, and James Posey have to show for before they came to the Heat? What credentials or experience past the conference finals did any of these guys have to show for themselves? They hadn't won the title before. But when they came on board in Miami, that's what they helped Shaq and Wade do. Let's look at the phrase "how sick would it be". Everyone was talking about "how sick" the Fab Four of the Lakers would be, and though they won 56 games, they amounted to one win in the NBA finals. Payton and Malone had their rounds against Jordan, Bryant and Shaq had three rings. One finals win. I'm not taking anything away from the power that the Celtics can unleash, but let's just sit back and see how things develop. I'm not going to compare Randolph and Garnett, because I think Garnett is superior. Do I have to discredit Garnett and Allen and raise Randolph's status to disagree? No. I'll just say how the acquisition of Randolph can help.

    What have I done to hype up this team? I, too, know that we have weaknesses, and I want a title, but is it necessary for me to bash people when they talk about hope? I wonder what the Raptors and Bulls fans tell you and how you respond to it.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Randolph > Frye, no ****. It still doesn't answer our team needs, which you continue fail to explain why that isn't a problem. You don't have a problem with Knicks coming into the season with weak interior defense and still turnover prone? I'll wait with you to see if they improve on that, but till now its not proven...so I can't be happy with Isiah until he addresses our need.
    So wait with me. Let's see how it works. An upgrade at the four position (which you just admitted) doesn't help us somewhat?

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    You're right, Randolph does have Marbury, Curry, Richardson and Crawford. But who's going to pass the ball? These guys are isolation players, I can only see Marbury who's mature enough to give up his one on one game and sacrafice for the other guys. I like how Marbury moves the ball.
    Nearly 8 guys, double figure scoring. I don't think touches were an issue brought up by any player.



    Originally Posted by metrocard
    We also had more downfalls than opportunities emerge for us. We also had many missed opportunites. Are you going to tell me guys like Jared Jefferies and Jerome James are the best available guys for the MLE in free agency? Those were both terrible signings by Iisah and it has shown the past season.
    I don't like how the Jerome James situation panned out, but I am willing to give Jeffries a chance just like Eddy and Q.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Isiah made a mistake signing Larry Brown and expect him to a coach a team that doesn't fit his method of play.
    So you're telling me that you wouldn't have advocated the signing of Larry Brown when we did? Obviously it turned out to be a mistake, but there wasn't anyone who thought the Knicks would turn out to be as bad as they were. More than 40 different starting lineups, not establishing a rotation, and starting a player in his hometown was not the method of play that the Knicks needed. I agree.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    The team back then won the same amount of games or more than the team we have now. The team back then had expiring contracts and a lot of draft picks. So there was SOMETHING to work with, please don't be foolish enough to realize that. Isiah went to a maze or a puzzle to get where he is now, and wasted a lot of time and money for little success. Why do you name Curry, Nate and Jefferies like they're all stars? I'll take Allan Houston 3 years ago over all those players. At least Houston was a border-line all star every season with leadership and a matured game.
    Where have I referred to Nate and Jeffries like all-stars? Why will you single out Randolph on defense when you know that Allan Houston wasn't a good defender either? I love Allan Houston to death, but we were going nowhere with him at the helm. He had help with LJ, Spree, Ewing, Childs, and Oakley, not Weatherspoon, Harrington, Travis Knight, and Howard Eisley.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    You're saying if too many times, which makes me doubt you're thinking realstically instead more imaginary. I don't know where your going with this imagination of yours that isn't real. We didn't have Eddy Curry 3 years ago, why does it matter? What matters is we had expiring contracts and alot of draft picks. That would of allowed us to move for guys, get under the cap and sign top free agents. You know NYC is a hot market for free agents. Isiah failed to realize that and ignore the cap. We've blown many opportunities to excel and grow on this Eddy Curry development. I'm not going to waste my time on that, send feedback when you're ready to speak more realistically.
    When I use "if", I feel that you take my example way out of context. Having Eddy Curry three years ago means that we've established him for our piece of the future. When you say three years, it's as though you look at it without recognizing any change. When I say three years, I'm talking about establishing a foundation and then moving forward. Under Isiah, we haven't been able to establish a foundation as easily as we'd like, but we're starting to see the pieces that can fit. Metro, when before this summer would we have been able to get under the cap even if we had kept our expirings? I'm sorry that we can't agree on what being realistic means.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    3 years to barely be considered an 8th seed team in the Eastern Conference? What about next year, your new expectation level is gonna be 7th seed? I could see you saying something silly like "Give Isiah 7 more years, by 2014 we'll be a one seed". You would probably find some far fetched argument for that too.
    Put away the misunderstandings my friend, there's no trouble here. Think hard and you'll know honestly if I am the way you are describing me.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Isiah saw the opportunities and didn't handle them carefully. Isiah traded for what he felt he needed on the roster, not what the Knicks needed, which became his downfall.
    Say what you will, but I'll wait and see what happens. Listen, don't think that I am always for whatever Isiah does, or that I'm a so-called "isiahsexual". We both want what's best for the Knicks, but we just have different ways of looking at things. Unlike you, I won't self-proclaim that I'm right and you're wrong. Although I don't agree with you, I am willing to admit that I at least understand why you are thinking the way that you are.

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    This cat is on fire! Roco might be the Luke Skywalker of this forum. Maybe one day we will all get along!

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    Your examples are already out of context cause they aren't factual. I understand your perspective on the whole situation:

    Isiah took a bad situation and improved it each season by trading for talented young players, and getting rid of washed up veterans. We have an opportunity now with these talented players. Unproven, but have the potential to work together as a unit if given the time.

    Roco, your standards shouldn't be so low. I hate to see a Knick fan with low standards. Isn't there always a possibility of playoffs each year that gets hyped up, especially in the middle of the season when we get close and fall short? I'm sick of that feeling of disappointed each year, cause I myself get caught up in the hype and actually expect playoffs. I'm guessing 3 years of losing isn't enough for you to be convinced.

    The process was poorly thought out, alot of time and money just to talk about the 8th seed? Are you serious? The funniest part of all this you don't seem frustrated with the management of the team at all. I don't really care about your extreme optimism, but to ignore the mistakes management have done to hold the Knicks back from being anything better than mediocre is sad, just sad as Knick fans.

    You already sound radical. I'm going to make you sound more radical because you can't deny to the facts, the only way you can disagree is be more radical and blind to the information I present. If I was giving you just my opinion(Which would be "Isiah wears the weirdest suits" etc), you wouldn't be so radical and apologizing for Isiah. I could careless who Isiah is, he hasn't done the job, therefor I can't be happy with him.

    So your excuse for the Jerome James move was that it was a gamble? Stop posting and do some research; see how many years Isiah gave Jerome James. You have to admit it was a TERRIBLE signing, and nothing less. For you to say it was just a "gamble" shows your radical unreasonable argument.

    Everything has a science behind it, and this goes for the Ariza deal. Isiah brought Larry Brown here which led to the departure of Ariza. We've seen this before too with Isiah trades.

    Tim Thomas is really a 6th man who's an inconsistent poor starter. Kevin Van Horn at least was at least a productive ex-all star and gave you 18 and 7 consistently, who had a winning chemistry with Marbury. Isiah ****ed up the chemistry once again with his rapid trading and never let the Knicks come together. He did upgrade in talent, but downgraded in chemistry, salary cap, lottery picks, turnovers and defense. This is why Isiah's excuse every season is "give it another season or two to work out, cause of his trading blunders will always sacrifice time, money and success. Isiah Thomas is not a successful GM or NBA president, plain and simple.

    A dynamic three guard rotation? Does it look like a good idea now? Has it ever looked like a good idea? Whats so dynamic if theres only one borderline all star in that three guard rotation? You make it sound like we have Jason Kidd, Ray Allen and Kobe Bryant. Please. There was nothing dynamic about Crawford, Marbury and Houston together, especially at the time they were considered non aggressive defenders.

    Crawford ended up playing way more than expected. You're correct. Another downfall on the Isiah trade.

    So the Knicks biggest need was Jamal Crawford? Crawford averaged 17 ppg in 35 minutes leading the Chicago Bulls to 88 points per game. Isiah was way too desperate and gave up too much too quickly for a player Chicago was willing to deal away. Especially scoring combo guards are easy to find in today's era of the NBA.

    From what winning team?

    "Joakim Noah and Tyrus Thomas or Eddy Curry, Renaldo Balkman, and Wilson Chandler?"

    You forgot to add cap space and additional draft picks.

    Tyrus Thomas > Curry. Balkman and Thomas would of solidify our defense for YEARS, and Noah at the middle? Oh well, thats me playing an unreal scenario cause Isiah blew it up.

    Well, I don't like Frye or Francis. Isiah did a great job on getting superior value and expiring contracts. Props to him. It still doesn't address our mean weaknesses.

    Does getting younger mean getting better? No.

    We don't even have a good offense or defense (95-97 ppg) on offense and (100-102 ppg) on defense. We must improve both sides of the ball. You said we had alot of guys averaging double digits, so? We only averaged 97 ppg while giving up over 100. Not good production, we can do better.

    What happend to KG? He was playing in a deep western conference division with a downgraded roster. He's still a player who can carry your team to victory and Curry isn't. This is why I disapprove of Curry being the franchise player. When you compare Curry to other franchise players, he's one of the last ones you would pick in the NBA. Isiah must like losing to put so must responsibility on a player who never done anything significant in his career.

    Phoneix isn't a great team to you now? I'm guessing because I out did you in the debate over Nash/Marbury, you're going to hold a grudge against Nash or anything else he does. Phoneix wins alot of games each season. I rather have a lot of wins than what we got now. How about you brother?

    You think? Thats nice. What do you know though? I'm not seeing alot of it. You're thinking about Dwayne Wade coming to the Knicks. I'm here to find out what you know and if you care about the Knick's weaknesses more than you care about Isiah's jeopardy as Knicks GM and President; which is something I don't know yet. It is also the division between Knick fans in this forum. The ones who spend more time defending Isiah than concerning out needs. When a fan concerns our needs, and Isiahsexual jumps in and disagree with them for no reason other than that fan isn't making Isiah look good as a GM and President.

    The answer to turnovers is two words? Roco you should apply for a NBA Head coaching job.

    I'm still waiting for a nice explanation on how Randolph is going to answer our interior defense problems(I repeated this about three times).

    Eddy Curry isn't an all star caliber player. His stats increased cause Isiah increased his minutes, regardless if it mad our defense worse.

    PPG wise Curry would of been an all star. But he's way too one dementional and not efficient enough to be an all star, especially with the addition of talent in the East now.

    Why would Knicks make a non all star player their franchise player? What direction is Isiah heading? This concerns me.


    Garnett at his best >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randolph at his best

    Allen at his best >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randolph has his best.

    Garnett and Allen at their best on the same team with all star Paul Pierce > everything Randolph has done in his life.



    So why do you believe Randolph should be granted on the same level as KG and Allen?

    How many playoff appearances Randolph has had again? At least KG wins MVPs and leads his mediocre team to the playoffs. When KG had decent amount of talent in Sprewell, Cassel, and Wally Z, he led his team to the conference finals. Honestly I don't know why I'm saying this, why am I defending KG and Allen against Randolph, or why are you putting Randolph's name in the same level of KG or Allen? Its a solid fact KG will have much more of an impact than Randolph, in any team in the NBA. Randolph can't help the Knicks like a Kevin Garnett or Ray Allen, those guys are Hall of Famers and still going strong in their prime. You won't agree cause it'll terminate your weak argument on how Randolph is the answer to the Knicks, with any explanation of how he can address the Knicks needs. Good job.

    Zach Randolph can find a way to use his strengths to help our team? Are you sure about that or is that one of your unproven predictions that always seem to fall flat in 3-5 months of time. I really wish you stop predicting so many things on the Knicks, its probably the reason why we've stinked so bad the last 3 years. God was annoyed by you trying to predict the future and just flipped the script...lol.

    Are Shaq and Wade on the Knicks? Why would you even bring the Heat up in this conversation. We're talking about the Knicks. Randolph isn't on a roster with Shaq and Wade. Heat in their championship season had two elite NBA players to build aorund. Who do we have, Crawford and Curry? I wouldn't be suprised if you replied back saying Crawford and Curry are the future Wade and Shaq.

    You haven't said how the addition of Randolph can help, I understand what you believe, not I haven't be informed on what you know. All you've done is discredit MVP players, Hall of Fame players, and NBA Final teams. Could you actually prove a point correct with out discrediting other players? I feel like helping you out, cause I myself have some points on how Randolph can help the Knicks and I'm disappointed you haven't brought them up yet. When I'm debating I'm looking at the argument from both ways, almost debating against myself. Which why I can directly reply to you with a straight up answer or fact, no random predictions, what ifs, or discrediting superior players to Randolph.

    Making the Finals is an accomplishment it self. Would you rather make the finals or miss the playoffs? You don't want to be excited by your team in the playoffs, or would you rather sit here on the forums defending Isiah on how he led the Knicks in 3 years of time to a possibility of the 8th seed at the bottom of the Eastern Conference, a possibility, not even a guarantee. That sucks really. As a Knick fan, I want to see you and the rest of the Knick nation enjoying competitive playoff basketball at least every season. That should be the minimum standards. The highest, of course is the trophy. Why do you raise the standards for other teams in the NBA so high, but so low for the Knicks? Is it the only way to make Isiah credible now?


    I destroy Raptors and Bull fans. I take it easy on you guys cause you're my brothers wearing the same colors. I hate it when opposing teams ignorant bash the Knicks. I also hate bias itself, and people who try to make more points defending Isiah rather than point out our weaknesses and needs. Pointing out the weaknesses of a team isn't negative, but a concerned realistic aspect of being a fan. Thats what I'm doing here. I'm concerned about that because I want wins or whatever is best for the organization. I understand and know Isiah has done his best to help that situation.

    I disapproved of the Larry Brown deal from the beginning. I turned out to be right once again. Its not even about me being right consistently, its just that it was an obviously bad move. Wrong coach for the wrongly built team. It would of taken 3-4 more years of trial and error for Brown to work with the roster he had, or our roster to work with a strict hard headed coach like Larry Brown. I'm not a fool and be like "OMGZZZZ LARRY BROWN, KNICKS 05-06 CHAMPIONZ!!!!". You gotta see things from different perspectives and truly understand the situation, if not you might as well be blind.

    You brought Nate and Jefferies up like they were all stars, re read your previous post if you didn't get it.

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    The last post was filled with more of the same ol' nonsense. Joakim Noah gets a pass, but Curry doesn't? You talk about Curry not doing anything significant in his career. What's true with the comparisson with Tyrus Thomas and Noah done that's of record? Right now you'd have more GM on the phone if Curry was available than those. If you don't believe me, ask Paxson why he doesn't have KG. Also, the Bulls didn't get any better with their low post scoring. Joe Smith is now the first option in the post. So when you look at teams that failed this offseason, look at the Bulls before you look at us. The KVH argument is nonsense, cause it's conjecture (expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof). He's not even in the league any more. So let that water flow under the bridge. Plus, Marbury and KVH did not get along at all. That's common knowledge. So how you surmize that two guys at each others throat would have been better for us, is foolishness. Ray Allen is a Celtic. He may have been a special talent before. No one has seen him come of a screen yet, or cut to the baselinefor his patented three. With the surgery he had, his doctors made no promises. So now you're talking about Shuttleworth like it's 2K3. Reality check. He's had surgery and he's older. It will take time before he's a 100%. Again, the what if's was a great song for Jaguar Wright Ft. the Roots, but when you sing your version, in comes out like garbage. Why would you compare Ray Allen to Zach? That's apples and oranges. At PF, I'd always take Zach. Zach is a self made man. He's a tireless worker that made Rasheed Wallace expendable. So stop acting like dropping 23 and 10 is easy. If you we're a GM and you traded Zach Randolph for Ray Allen and placed Ray at PF, you get a a one way ticket to a Siberan Salt Mine. KG, Pierce, and Allen will use 55 Mil of the salary available to Boston. How do you restock the roster, when three men make the amount of the salary cap? You don't. Miller didn't like the odds. Thats why he never came back. If things were as great as you predicted, then guys that never won should be running out of the woodworks to play in beantown. So far as we've all witnessed, that's simply not the case. You complain about the Ariza deal. So I'll pose a question. Who would you rather have. Ariza or Balkman? The last time I checked Balkman looks like a guy who could be an all star. Ariza got a fresh start, and looks to have done nothing with it. Don't believe me? Then ask Otis Smith why he gave a max deal to Rashard Lewis, when he already had Ariza.

    We don't even have a good offense or defense (95-97 ppg) on offense and (100-102 ppg) on defense. We must improve both sides of the ball. You said we had alot of guys averaging double digits, so? We only averaged 97 ppg while giving up over 100. Not good production, we can do better.
    That was last years squad. You need to move on. Instead of hoping for the worst, why don't you wait an see? I could understand if we got killed in a pre-season game. The sad reality is we've done nothing, but you're already upset. To me that seems like your wound way too tight.

    How many playoff appearances Randolph has had again? At least KG wins MVPs and leads his mediocre team to the playoffs. When KG had decent amount of talent in Sprewell, Cassel
    The rosters Randolph was on sucked to. Plus, KG had help from Cassell and Spree. Take those guys of the roster, you get last years debaucle. No western finals, just a paltry 32 wins. Zach isn't hear to do it by himself. It didn't work out so hot for KG either. Here's a hint. Team = any group of people linked in a common purpose. That's what IT is building. Guys went to war for each other last year. Hopefully we build on that comradery, and take it to the next level. Every year, all the players need to play well and take on more responsibilies. Stop acting like Zach and Eddy are gonna play 2 against 5. Like addidas says:"it takes 5".

    Garnett at his best >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randolph at his best
    No kidding. you could say that when comparing him to David Lee too. What's you point? No one's gonna say KG isn't a rare talent. Why did he leave Minnesota? To get help. The Knicks starting five is formidable. We'll compete most nights we play. That makes me happy . It's not lowered expectations, but the realization that I have no control. The five man unit that hits the floor for us have to want it badly. I personally believe they do.

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    You guys need to get past the old ****. Why are we still talking about KVH? I thought the Thomas must go movement was dead or at least beat to death already. I've said this a thousand times. For those that think Curry is week make a good trade suggestion that would bring us a good center, one better than Curry. I've asked this question a dozen times and have never gotten a good answer. Let's face it, Yao Ming, Tim Duncan, and Amare Stoudemire are proven players and are LOCKED! Meaning if you can bring them here in a trade for Curry then you don't trade Curry. That being said can we all finally get over the fact that Curry is here to stay. Sure Thomas gave allot up for Curry but it didn't pan out to be much any way so who cares. I'll say this for the 5th time. It's better to have Randolph than Francis. Sorry guys but I don't see what the debate is about.

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    You're right...you're absolutely right...knick pessimists are just barely holding on to their lame excuses and opinions while the optimists are being REAL about the unsure things and have already said that they'll wait for the upcoming season to fill in the gaps on what they believe. Somebody needs to close this thread already...while some posters are putting down legitimate facts backed with opinion others are just outta bullets and are just saying the same thing but in a different way as if they were in the court room and trying to prove a murderer innocent. QUIT CRYING BABIES AND WAIT TIL THE SEASON STARTS

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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Roco, your standards shouldn't be so low. I hate to see a Knick fan with low standards. Isn't there always a possibility of playoffs each year that gets hyped up, especially in the middle of the season when we get close and fall short? I'm sick of that feeling of disappointed each year, cause I myself get caught up in the hype and actually expect playoffs. I'm guessing 3 years of losing isn't enough for you to be convinced.
    So this whole 'Isiah's had a horrible plan' and whatnot argument all of a sudden loses it's effect when you get "caught up in the hype"? Is that what you just implied?

    Look, I can stay here as long as I can and hold a fairly consistent opinion of this team. But you, on the other hand, have just admitted that you can flip flop. You fall into this "hype" that you yourself have ridiculed with a passion.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    The process was poorly thought out, alot of time and money just to talk about the 8th seed? Are you serious? The funniest part of all this you don't seem frustrated with the management of the team at all. I don't really care about your extreme optimism, but to ignore the mistakes management have done to hold the Knicks back from being anything better than mediocre is sad, just sad as Knick fans.
    Just because I don't exactly agree with what you say, you then assume that I want the exact opposite of what you want. Are my standards are low just because I don't say the same things you say? I too, am disappointed that the Knicks missed out on a chance at the playoffs. Don't think that I stay poker-faced when we commit costly turnovers, give up key rebounds, take poor shots, and miss freebies. I won't blame injuries on the whole for making us miss the playoffs, because I recognize that there were times where we were fairly healthy and just did not capitalize on the games that we were supposed to.

    Am I crazy for saying that it's "playoffs or bust" for next season? That it's not excuse for us to miss the playoffs if we're fairly healthy?


    Originally Posted by metrocard
    So your excuse for the Jerome James move was that it was a gamble? Stop posting and do some research; see how many years Isiah gave Jerome James. You have to admit it was a TERRIBLE signing, and nothing less. For you to say it was just a "gamble" shows your radical unreasonable argument.
    Me research? What is a gamble to you?

    Gamble - An act or undertaking of uncertain outcome;

    I am baffled by your lack of understanding. Jerome had just done some damage in the playoffs. We did not have a true center. So........Isiah took a chance (or gamble) on James with the idea that he could possibly be our man in the middle just as he was for a playoff team that had just had some success. It did not pan out. He took a gamble and it wasn't successful. I will admit that it was a terrible signing. Note that this was before we got Eddy Curry, and we needed some size. So did we address that need for size at the time? Yes. Did it pan out? No. Is your accusation of me being unreasonable really infallible?


    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Tim Thomas is really a 6th man who's an inconsistent poor starter. Kevin Van Horn at least was at least a productive ex-all star and gave you 18 and 7 consistently, who had a winning chemistry with Marbury. Isiah ****ed up the chemistry once again with his rapid trading and never let the Knicks come together. He did upgrade in talent, but downgraded in chemistry, salary cap, lottery picks, turnovers and defense. This is why Isiah's excuse every season is "give it another season or two to work out, cause of his trading blunders will always sacrifice time, money and success. Isiah Thomas is not a successful GM or NBA president, plain and simple.
    How did KVH's career go after he left the Knicks? Was he still getting 18 and 7? There's no denying that Marbury and KVH had some chemistry, but trading a starter and backup for two starters? Compare their stats after they left New York. And Isiah never said that TT was better than KVH, he made the trade to get Nazr Mohammed, a center who averaged 11 points, 8 rebounds, and 1 block for us during the following season. I thought TT was an inconsistent player (he still is), but he manages to stay in double figure scoring. I'm not going to bash Isiah for that move. Downgrade in salary cap? TT and KVH were making the same amount of money, had the same length of contract, and we got a starting center.

    Metro, it's nice to make a trade where there's nothing but positives, but are you being realistic? The Celtics made "all the right moves" but then they gave up a lottery pick to Seattle. Does Ray Allen really deserve that contract? You talk about how sick the Celtics are going to be before you see them. Now, am I saying that the Celtics won't be a good team next year? Absolutely not. I'm just asking you to judge accordingly.

    Downgrade in turnovers? Have you ever heard any analyst refer or talk about a trade and mention the idea of "downgrade in turnovers"? Like I said before, we could trade for Dwyane Wade or Kobe, and it's as though you'll talk about how they add to the turnover problem.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    A dynamic three guard rotation? Does it look like a good idea now? Has it ever looked like a good idea? Whats so dynamic if theres only one borderline all star in that three guard rotation? You make it sound like we have Jason Kidd, Ray Allen and Kobe Bryant. Please. There was nothing dynamic about Crawford, Marbury and Houston together, especially at the time they were considered non aggressive defenders.
    Did we ever have the chance to see it happen for at least half a season? Yes, I was going for the Kobe, Kidd, and Allen comparison.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Crawford ended up playing way more than expected. You're correct. Another downfall on the Isiah trade.
    Hmm, in the words of Ali G, "I's gettin it." But tell me, where are Dikembe Mutombo, Othella Harrington, Cezary Trybanski, and Frank Williams now? Two of them are out of the league, and the other two won't be here in 3 years. Are we still paying Jerome Williams?

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    So the Knicks biggest need was Jamal Crawford? Crawford averaged 17 ppg in 35 minutes leading the Chicago Bulls to 88 points per game. Isiah was way too desperate and gave up too much too quickly for a player Chicago was willing to deal away. Especially scoring combo guards are easy to find in today's era of the NBA.
    Too much? Dikembe Mutombo, Othella Harrington, Cezary Trybanski, and Frank Williams. Too much?


    Originally Posted by metrocard
    "Joakim Noah and Tyrus Thomas or Eddy Curry, Renaldo Balkman, and Wilson Chandler?"

    You forgot to add cap space and additional draft picks.
    We trade cap space? Did someone forget to tell you that Paxson didn't want Curry to leave in the first place? And what additional draft picks am I forgetting? JamesOn Curry and a 2009 second round pick? Please.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Tyrus Thomas > Curry. Balkman and Thomas would of solidify our defense for YEARS, and Noah at the middle? Oh well, thats me playing an unreal scenario cause Isiah blew it up.
    Oh, so you like Balkman? I would've had no idea. As of Tyrus Thomas > Curry, Thomas is more defensive minded, while Curry plays to his strengths on offense. Tyrus Thomas is obviously very talented, but here you are making that bold of a statement, when Tyrus only started 4 games all of last season and Curry was talked about as a borderline all-star.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Well, I don't like Frye or Francis. Isiah did a great job on getting superior value and expiring contracts. Props to him. It still doesn't address our mean weaknesses.

    Does getting younger mean getting better? No.

    We don't even have a good offense or defense (95-97 ppg) on offense and (100-102 ppg) on defense. We must improve both sides of the ball. You said we had alot of guys averaging double digits, so? We only averaged 97 ppg while giving up over 100. Not good production, we can do better.

    What happend to KG? He was playing in a deep western conference division with a downgraded roster. He's still a player who can carry your team to victory and Curry isn't. This is why I disapprove of Curry being the franchise player. When you compare Curry to other franchise players, he's one of the last ones you would pick in the NBA. Isiah must like losing to put so must responsibility on a player who never done anything significant in his career.
    The nearly 8 guys averaging double digits fact was a response to your concern about ball movement. We can do better, I'll agree.

    Now you're making excuses for KG. Downgraded roster? Did Randolph have a humungously better supporting cast that you can't grant him a break either? All the pressure is on Curry? Significance? He just had a breakout season. I didn't know that everybody who does something significant has to do so before he's 24.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Phoneix isn't a great team to you now? I'm guessing because I out did you in the debate over Nash/Marbury, you're going to hold a grudge against Nash or anything else he does. Phoneix wins alot of games each season. I rather have a lot of wins than what we got now. How about you brother?
    You aren't being consistent. The Suns opponents averaged 102 ppg last season. The Knicks gave up 100. It's as though you just give the Suns a pass because they outscore their opponent. Aren't they playing to their strengths in order to succeed? Are they the great defensive team that you want the Knicks to emulate? I would love wins! Absolutely. But I'll at least stay consistent with how I argue. The Suns are a very good team, but I just found it weird that you would mention them with all this talk about your concern with the Knicks defense.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    You think? Thats nice. What do you know though? I'm not seeing alot of it. You're thinking about Dwayne Wade coming to the Knicks. I'm here to find out what you know and if you care about the Knick's weaknesses more than you care about Isiah's jeopardy as Knicks GM and President; which is something I don't know yet. It is also the division between Knick fans in this forum. The ones who spend more time defending Isiah than concerning out needs. When a fan concerns our needs, and Isiahsexual jumps in and disagree with them for no reason other than that fan isn't making Isiah look good as a GM and President.
    Dwyane Wade gets traded to the Knicks, are you the first to bring up turnovers? Yes or no? What about Kobe?

    I wasn't destined to defend Isiah's every move. I just think it's unfortunate that you have to loathe every single thing that happens just because you confuse the Knicks with Burger King.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    The answer to turnovers is two words? Roco you should apply for a NBA Head coaching job.
    It's good that we finally agree on something. Good ball movement around the perimeter is definitely more preferable than risky passes through traffic.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    I'm still waiting for a nice explanation on how Randolph is going to answer our interior defense problems(I repeated this about three times).
    Keep waiting, because if you think that I believe he's some interior defensive stalwart, then I am guididdily-ilty as charged of what you call "homerism".

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Eddy Curry isn't an all star caliber player. His stats increased cause Isiah increased his minutes, regardless if it mad our defense worse.
    Compelling.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    PPG wise Curry would of been an all star. But he's way too one dementional and not efficient enough to be an all star, especially with the addition of talent in the East now.
    I think he needs to improve on his defense as well.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Why would Knicks make a non all star player their franchise player? What direction is Isiah heading? This concerns me.
    I think there's a lot more to it. If it's Curry you're talking about, I think he's got some help around, and the pressure isn't all on him.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Garnett at his best >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randolph at his best

    Allen at his best >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Randolph has his best..
    In a way, you're using an "if" statement.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Garnett and Allen at their best on the same team with all star Paul Pierce > everything Randolph has done in his life.


    Originally Posted by metrocard
    So why do you believe Randolph should be granted on the same level as KG and Allen?
    Do nonsensical questions deserve serious answers? Randolph is not on the same level as KG. In my opinion, the Sonics would have entertained an offer for Allen if they got Randolph in ttreturn.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    How many playoff appearances Randolph has had again? At least KG wins MVPs and leads his mediocre team to the playoffs. When KG had decent amount of talent in Sprewell, Cassel, and Wally Z, he led his team to the conference finals. Honestly I don't know why I'm saying this, why am I defending KG and Allen against Randolph, or why are you putting Randolph's name in the same level of KG or Allen? Its a solid fact KG will have much more of an impact than Randolph, in any team in the NBA. Randolph can't help the Knicks like a Kevin Garnett or Ray Allen, those guys are Hall of Famers and still going strong in their prime. You won't agree cause it'll terminate your weak argument on how Randolph is the answer to the Knicks, with any explanation of how he can address the Knicks needs. Good job.
    Randolph hasn't made the playoffs yet, but he still has a lot of years ahead. Yes, he's taken lumps. But can you say that KG hasn't? 7 straight first round exits.

    No, I didn't say Randolph was the answer, where are you getting this from? No doubt that Garnett will make a great impact, and Ray Allen will help. I don't think you understood my argument. You are quick to say "Garnett and Allen are at their best" as if you are just adding their statistics to the Celtics output. But when it's Randolph? You say, he led his team offensively on a below average offensive team. When Ray Allen or Garnett don't make the playoffs, you have an excuse. Randolph? You imply that since he hasn't got it done by now, he never will.

    We never had the chance of acquiring both KG and Allen, so I don't know why it seems as though you're having me choose between Randolph and KG and Allen. I never said Randolph was better than having KG and Allen, I was raising the issue of you granting the Celtics the benefit of the doubt that the two can use their strengths to help. Whereas with the Knicks, Randolph to you was an abomination.

    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Zach Randolph can find a way to use his strengths to help our team? Are you sure about that or is that one of your unproven predictions that always seem to fall flat in 3-5 months of time. I really wish you stop predicting so many things on the Knicks, its probably the reason why we've stinked so bad the last 3 years. God was annoyed by you trying to predict the future and just flipped the script...lol.

    Are Shaq and Wade on the Knicks? Why would you even bring the Heat up in this conversation. We're talking about the Knicks. Randolph isn't on a roster with Shaq and Wade. Heat in their championship season had two elite NBA players to build aorund. Who do we have, Crawford and Curry? I wouldn't be suprised if you replied back saying Crawford and Curry are the future Wade and Shaq.
    I specifically brought up Jason Williams, James Posey, and Antoine Walker. Again, if it isn't clear to you, the issue is having these players with little experience in the playoffs within the time that they were acquired go to the Heat. Jason Williams and James Posey were both on a Grizzlies team that could not make it out of the first round. Antoine Walker just got done with a losing campaign on the Hawks. Were they still able to help the Heat? Yes. Can Randolph help the Knicks? Yes. It's not a prediction, it's a realistic possibility.


    Originally Posted by metrocard
    You haven't said how the addition of Randolph can help, I understand what you believe, not I haven't be informed on what you know. All you've done is discredit MVP players, Hall of Fame players, and NBA Final teams. Could you actually prove a point correct with out discrediting other players? I feel like helping you out, cause I myself have some points on how Randolph can help the Knicks and I'm disappointed you haven't brought them up yet. When I'm debating I'm looking at the argument from both ways, almost debating against myself. Which why I can directly reply to you with a straight up answer or fact, no random predictions, what ifs, or discrediting superior players to Randolph.

    Making the Finals is an accomplishment it self. Would you rather make the finals or miss the playoffs? You don't want to be excited by your team in the playoffs, or would you rather sit here on the forums defending Isiah on how he led the Knicks in 3 years of time to a possibility of the 8th seed at the bottom of the Eastern Conference, a possibility, not even a guarantee. That sucks really. As a Knick fan, I want to see you and the rest of the Knick nation enjoying competitive playoff basketball at least every season. That should be the minimum standards. The highest, of course is the trophy. Why do you raise the standards for other teams in the NBA so high, but so low for the Knicks? Is it the only way to make Isiah credible now?

    I destroy Raptors and Bull fans. I take it easy on you guys cause you're my brothers wearing the same colors. I hate it when opposing teams ignorant bash the Knicks. I also hate bias itself, and people who try to make more points defending Isiah rather than point out our weaknesses and needs. Pointing out the weaknesses of a team isn't negative, but a concerned realistic aspect of being a fan. Thats what I'm doing here. I'm concerned about that because I want wins or whatever is best for the organization. I understand and know Isiah has done his best to help that situation.

    I disapproved of the Larry Brown deal from the beginning. I turned out to be right once again. Its not even about me being right consistently, its just that it was an obviously bad move. Wrong coach for the wrongly built team. It would of taken 3-4 more years of trial and error for Brown to work with the roster he had, or our roster to work with a strict hard headed coach like Larry Brown. I'm not a fool and be like "OMGZZZZ LARRY BROWN, KNICKS 05-06 CHAMPIONZ!!!!". You gotta see things from different perspectives and truly understand the situation, if not you might as well be blind.

    You brought Nate and Jefferies up like they were all stars, re read your previous post if you didn't get it.
    How can Randolph help? He has range on his jumper like Frye's, he rebounds at a high rate, finds a way to get to the free throw line (and knocked them down at an 80% clip), and he should take some of the scoring load off of Curry. Where have I discredited MVP players and Hall-of-Famers? I'm not hiding anything. Nash is better teammate than Marbury, and has the MVP credentials to prove it. I'd rather have Garnett on this team than Randolph. I'd say I'm staying fairly consistent with my opinion.

    Metro, I have my eyes on the trophy too. I want this team to be successful. But you have to learn to walk before you run. The Knicks won't win the title next season. I'm being realistic. It's playoffs or bust next season. That's realistic. Telling me that I would rather have Randolph than KG and Allen? Are you for real?

    What do the Raptors and Bulls fans tell you? What do you say back?

    So when you say 3-4 more years of trial and error, you are also acknowledging a process. And about Nate, I brought him up as a draft pick added to bringing in Richardson. Jeffries? Again, he was a starter on a playoff team and was surrounded by 3 above average scorers. Is that calling him an all-star? I think not.

    We aren't little kids, so let's not argue that way. I don't try to twist around your arguments, and it seems like what you come back with are complete misunderstandings of my arguments.

    We both want the Knicks to win, but I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on certain things. Let's just agree to disagree. We're both wasting our time.

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    Carpy, everything you don't agree with is nonsense, why don't you be open minded for once instead of so close minded to one narrow vision? See everything from every possible direction, like I'm doing. KVH and Marbury played well together and had great chemistry on the court. Regardless, the point is we had something good going at the time and Isiah messed it up.

    Ray Allen is still at his prime. Who the hell is Jaguar Wright? If you can't talk about basketball, then head to the Jaguar Wright forum.

    Allen > Randolph, no comparison.

    Its more like comparing cotton cheese to a hamburger...cotton cheese has more protein and builds muscle and is good for your body, hamburgers aren't. Use better analogies and explain them better. If you're going to type alot, atleast say something, rather than a whole lot of nothing.

    DonChris you're talking about playing Ray Allen at PF...are you autistic?

    Allen on the Knicks would play SG, not PF, pendejo. Marbury/Allen/Richardson/Lee/Curry > Marbury/Crawford/Richardson/Randolph/Curry.

    Ariza or Balkman is an irrevelant question. You're going no where, I don't even know what point you're trying to make. You went from talking about Jaguar Wright to Ray Allen playing PF and now Ariza and Balkman comparision.

    I rather have both honestly, we had the opportunity to keep both. The more defense the better.

    Who said Ariza is done in Orlando? Otis Smith has mention plenty of times Ariza is apart of their future along with Nelson, Howard and Reddick.
    He gave the max to Lewis cause the Magic needed a primary perimeter scorer. They lost Grant Hill, what you wanted to do? It has nothing to do with Ariza, he's going to get more minutes this season cause he played a very important role to getting the Magic to the playoffs along with Dwight Howard, Darko, Nelson Arroyo and all those guys. Ariza was their BEST defender, they need him. Research before you post next time.

    Move on? I guess you don't have much passion for this Knicks franchise, since its so for easy for you to "move on" and still be Isiah's lawyer. No one here is hoping for the worst, why do you think so negative about everything you disagree with? Its not going to prove your point, it just proves your frustration that you deal with when you're limited to be negative and misunderstanding. Grow up. My point is we haven't improved on our weaknesses. I will be satisfied till we improved on them(roster wise). You haven't even shown any in interest in knowledge on what the Knicks weaknesses are which why I think you're a closet Raptors/Isiah fanatic.

    You believe if you replace Garnett with Randolph, the T'Wolves team with Spree and Sam would still make the western conference finals? I'm not surprised. You've said a lot of dumber things in the past.

    What do you have against Lee? You seem to get emotional when Lee and Randolph get in the same sentence. Lee has done more for the Knicks than Randolph so far, we don't even know how Randolph is going to transfer his one on one ball domination no defense style of basketball to the Knicks...as if we need anymore of that.




    Roco, who said it did? You're assuming again, I guess to make it seem I flip flopped. I I'm a Knick fan, when Knicks get close, I easily put all my faith and prayers they make the playoffs. But year after year I get tired of missing the playoffs over the same weaknesses that have not been address.

    I can't root for the team cause I disagree with the mistakes management has made? I don't understand really.

    Like I said, I'm guessing 3 years of losing isn't enough for you to be convinced.

    Your standards are LOW because losing doesn't bother and you never expressed in your post that you were disappointed with the past seasons, till now when I have to put you on the spot and question you as a Knick fan or an Isiah apologist. I'm actually more disappointing than anything, I expect Knick fans to show more feeling to their team, than more apologies for the GM.

    Theres nothing wrong with pointing out the problems Knicks are facing, theres also nothing wrong with pointing our strengths (rebounding, young players, good offense/defensive PG star in Marbury, etc). Its part of following your favorite team.

    uncertain outcome? How often does that play out in a positive direction?

    I'm shocked you're actually sitting there trying to defend the signing of Jerome James.

    You make it seem like Jerome James was playing like an all star. He averaged 12ppg and 7 rebs. Around a block and a couple of turnovers. Thats not bad and I understand what you mean, but you over do it here. Is that really damage? When I hear "damage" I expect Lebron James numbers. Once again you lower your standards or lower the NBA standard to try to solidify a point that isn't realistic.

    Jerome James is a 4/3 3rd string center. He's been playing 14-16 minutes for the majority of his career. 11 games of his career shouldn't earn a 30 year old(at the time) a 5 year contract. If it was a 2-3 year contract, I wouldn't be complaining. It was just the matter of how much and how many years he got, for a non productive 3rd string center. You make Isiah seem to be a fool with the facts you mention. Jerome James the starting center? Jerome James was a 16 minute minute per game center...he wasn't even utilized or got starter minutes. He was a shot blocking specialist and a big body in the paint who can grab boards, but unfortunately he never does that often cause he's one of the most foul prone players in the NBA. Take a gamble on such a low value player and give him the value he's not worth just really makes one a poor GM with poor management skills. 12/7 for 11 games shouldn't earn you a 5 year deal, its simple as that.

    Of course it didn't PAN out, giving a 30 year old 3rd string center 5 years to the MLE who can only give you 10-14 minutes a game will never PAN out.

    Need for size? There were much bigger needs at the time, especially since we drafted two big men in the draft. We still had the address defense and turnovers. What did Isiah do? Trade a lot of cap space(Ben Wallace) and trade away lottery picks (Joakim Noah and Tyrus Thomas or LeMarcus Aldridge, take your pick) for the answer to defense and turnovers...Eddy mother****ing Curry.

    If I wasn't sarcastic you would probably agree that Curry plays defense and limits turnovers...and that Tyrus Thomas, Noah or Aldridge wouldn't help us in post defense like Eddy Curry would.

    KVH averaged 16 and 5 for the Bucks (Much better production than Tim Thomas has done for the Knicks), after that he was an asset off the bench for Dallas.

    I could understand where you're coming from, only because the Nazr Mohammed deal got us a draft pick in David Lee, but the awful contract in Malik Rose. Next time do you research, so I could fully understand you instead of look for reasons that are unwritten by you. I'm looking alot of directions, and I finally come to agreement with you. Hopefully next time you be more clear, instead of bringing up unreal scenarios.

    They gave up a lottery pick to Seattle for a franchise player, so? Whats your point?

    Ray Allen is a 25 ppg scorer who gives you 5 and 5 rebs/assist, shooting a high percentage and is the best shooter in the planet. You think Jeff Green is more valuable than Ray Allen?

    Trading for Wade and Kobe is unrealistic. If you can't be realistic, I suggest you head off to a fantasy forum.

    "Did we ever have the chance to see it happen for at least half a season? Yes, I was going for the Kobe, Kidd, and Allen comparison."

    Are you high?

    Marbury, Houston, and Crawford at their prime never been half of the players Kidd Kobe or Allen was. Like I said, Whats so dynamic if theres only one borderline all star in that three guard rotation? You make it sound like we have Jason Kidd, Ray Allen and Kobe Bryant. Please. There was nothing dynamic about Crawford, Marbury and Houston together, especially at the time they were considered non aggressive defenders.


    Dikembe Mutombo, Othella Harrington, Cezary Trybanski, and Frank Williams, Jerome Williams = CAP SPACE.

    Think outside the box, don't see threw a tight tunnel so often. You're not seeing the whole situation here. You think teams were desiring to have Othella Harrington, Cezary Trybanski or Frank Williams? You think the Bulls were playing to let these guys be significant in their success? You forget we gave up a lot of lottery picks to Chicago and cap space, which led tot he signing of Ben Wallace and acquiring some of the brightest youngest NBA stars in the league today, thanks to Isiah GMing skills.

    Chicago saw no WINNING or SUCESS with Crawford and Curry leading their franchise. They saw talent, YES...but they totally understand these guys are isolation players who are too soft to be effective on defense or have any other dimensions on their game. Chicago was smart and what they did was trade these guys to a desperate team and a desperate GM. They benefited 100% by starting a new future with real young talent that have the tools to win basketball games like Gordon, Hinrich. By signing significant free agents like Nicioni, Ben Wallace, and Joe Smith to solidify their front court. They also aquired Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah, with our draft picks. The result of dropping Crawford and Curry? Chicago is a relevant team in the NBA now, everyone has them in their top 3 or favorites in the East. They went from one of the worst to one of the best in a short matter of time, along with a bright future with Deng, Hinrich, Gordon, Thomas and Noah.

    Us? Well, we're still hoping for that 8th seed.

    So when will it be to late for us to notice the same thing Chicago noticed?

    I could say the same about Orlando or Phoneix or any other team Isiah has improved. Without Isiah, Chicago would be a garbage ass lottery team against, same with Orlando and Phoneix. Isiah is a great GM, but not for the Knicks.

    Yes, I like Balkman, you don't read my past post? I've expect Balkman and Lee to play the most important roles this season for the Knicks

    8 guys averaging double digits fact was a weak response to my concern about ball movement. Averaging 97 ppgs and being one of the worst in the league at turnovers isn't good ball MOVEMENT. We can't get any worse, so of course we have to do BETTER.

    Silence, KG and Randolph is no comparison.

    Suns are an elite team, with an elite offense, the points difference and margin is a very important stat.

    Knicks need to improve at that. We're not the worse (-2.9) which is like in the early 20's, hopefully we get better.

    Stop playing NBA Live 07. Wade or Kobe isn't going to the Knicks.

    This whole debate started when no one could explain how Randolph is going to answer our interior defense problems

    Since no one answered, this debate is dead and over. I just started college, one of these part time jobs is a bitch, I get to be myself at my other job...plus boxing is a bitch, so I have a lot of fatigue..lol

    Peace out brother.

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    damn...ether. but cottage cheese, not cotton cheese. and jaguar wright is mad talented and mad off topic. hell of a post though. randolph isnt directly gonna answer our inside d problems and thats not really why we got him. i guess it was to get rid of frye/francis and give us a more potent offense but obviously at this point hes not the best complement to curry on d.

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    Nyk Logo Those guys need to hug

    D@mn, you guys are crazy. It took me an hour to read all your posts. make love not war, we are knicks fans, no need to get your panties all twisted about zach and eddy, we've never seen them play together. SOme people say oil and water don't mix, but neither does oil and vinegar and it makes a hell of a salad dressing. Maybe they'll adjust to each others games. The combo has a chance to be unbelievable if they can mix. Give them a couple games. Which is why I can't wait till november, even october training camps and preseason!!! Hopefully their combined area of defensive weakness, will be so obvious to them playing together, that they'll have to work and improve it.

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    (I apologize for the change of font in the later end of the post, I'm not really sure what happened)

    So when the Knicks get close, you easily put your faith in them and pray that they make the playoffs. But here you insistingly talk about how horrible management has been and how the players don't mix. This team definitely is not ideally where i'd want it to be, but it does sound like you flip flop.

    How can you root for this team when you yourself said that your faith in them wavers? You don't show that you believe in Curry's ability to get better after he just had a breakout season, you don't seem to believe that Zach can fit in with this team even though we've yet to see one game, but yet you'll root for them?

    3 years of losing with the same exact team will have me convinced, but not 3 years of searching for and creating a foundation. Example of the former, the Layden era. We had been to the lottery two years in a row with Layden, lost out on Nene and Stoudemire in 2002, and drafted Sweetney the following year. What happened? The same old backup point guard starting, still no rotational player over 6'9, and our lottery pick was on the inactive list for no reason at all. What about the latter? We get Eddy Curry, the team is starting to care after two hard seasons together, our point guard and coach communicate well, we had a candidate for 6th man that averaged a double double off of the bench, drafted a defensive minded forwarded and a tall defensive point guard out of a school with a coach who built his reputation on defense... We have plenty of things that we can reasonably look forward to and hope for.

    I have been disappointed these past three seasons. These losing season have not been fun at all. I think i've repeated myself so many times in saying that this team isn't as good as i want it to be yet. If you want us to show feeling for this team, then you probably aren't paying attention. We do show feeling for this team, it's just not the way you think we should.

    I can assure you that I know we don't have the certified shot blocker that we'd like to have. Our defense isn't among the best in the league, as I think we should all hope for someday soon. We have been careless with the ball for the last two seasons, and that's a big concern for most, if not all knicks fans.
    Do you disagree with what I just said? Probably not.

    I'm not defending the Jerome James signing. I just told you how one could see the reason why Isiah would take a chance on him. In his last season with Seattle, he was getting 1.4 blocks per game in 16 minutes per game. We were looking for size and a capable shot blocker, and he just had a breakout playoff series. Has taking this chance benefited us up to this point? Definitely not. Jerome has been out of shape, and we hadn't even seen him play 20 minutes this past season. Jerome was a mistake.

    Part of being successful means that you have to be willing to take risks. We took a risk by signing Jerome, and it's only hurt us up to this point. Now am I going to tear Isiah apart because of this? Absolutely not. Taking Renaldo Balkman at #20 when he wasn't even in the draft guide was a risk. Taking the projected second rounder David Lee over the once-considered potential #1 pick Chris Taft, the New York-based 6'11 Andray Blatche, and the shooting ability of Salim Stoudamire was a risk. Trading Nazr Mohammed for Malik Rose and two future first rounders was a risk.

    So your point is that 5 million to a 3rd string center will never pan out. I agree. But when he appears on the verge of breaking out, is it really that far fetched that we'd go after him? No, I don't like that we gave him 5 mil a year. But to use your logic for a second, Jerome James "at his best" helped lead the 4-1 elimination of the Sacramento Kings in the playoffs and (although they lost) a competitive 6 game series with the Spurs.

    In 2005, we had a coach who had just won his title with a team prided on defense. How did that not relate to the problem you said we had to address? It didn't work out, but it was at the time an adequate attempt at the least. Now the salary cap. Here's where we reach a stagnant point. Even if we kept Tim Thomas and Mike Sweetney, we still wouldn't be under the cap by the time their deals expired, and you'd still have to think about us extending Sweetney's contract. As for the picks? We'll never know where those would have ended up. But again, I will stand by 100% that losing the likes of a chance at Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah for the sake of Eddy Curry, Renaldo Balkman, and Wilson Chandler is not a hard hit against us at all. Last season, teams would prepare for how to stop Eddy Curry from scoring, not so much Tyrus Thomas running around and jumping high for 13 minutes per game. Thomas can end up being something special, but I really don't see him being as a big a low-post scoring threat that Curry is right now. And Curry's still 24.

    How would you address our turnover problem right now? How would you address another team's turnover problem? The Suns average 14 per game, just 3 less than the Knicks. Now it's crazy comparing a 50+ win team to a 33 win team, but there's always room for improvement right? I mean, they haven't won a championship, so there's still work to do. So how do the Suns reduce that problem? How does Steve Nash reduce 4.4 turnovers per game?

    KVH was an asset for the Bucks, true. But when he got dealt to Milwaukee, he was getting 16 and 6, while TT was getting 16 and 5 after he got traded to us. Not much of a difference really, and when you factor in that Nazr was getting 9 and 7 for us after we acquired him in the same deal, then I'd say we got the better end. The following season, KVH was averaging 10 and 5 to TT's 11 and 3, but Nazr (the key to the deal) was getting 10 and 8 before he got dealt to the Spurs.


    "I could understand where you're coming from, only because the Nazr Mohammed deal got us a draft pick in David Lee, but the awful contract in Malik Rose. Next time do you research, so I could fully understand you instead of look for reasons that are unwritten by you. I'm looking alot of directions, and I finally come to agreement with you. Hopefully next time you be more clear, instead of bringing up unreal scenarios."
    I don't understand what you're saying here. What unreal scenarios?

    Believe it or not, Malik's deal actually expires when Marbury's does, during a summer when we initially trim 30 million off of the salary cap. If Malik was the "fallout" from acquiring David Lee and Mardy Collins, then that shouldn't be a knock on Isiah. And plus, by the time Malik expires, we'll most likely be paying David Lee that type of money, and Malik might not even be here anymore.

    That lottery pick that the Celtics gave to Seattle will still be in this league 3 years from now, and Boston will be trying to milk Ray Allen for anything that he has left by then. Jeff Green has proven nothing in this league yet. No discredit to Ray Allen, but there's a difference to being in the league and not being in the league 3-5 years from now.

    If you didn't understand me about Kobe and Wade, let me make it clear. Maybe it isn't the Knicks, but let's say another team acquires Kobe or Wade. How would their high turnover averages affect that team's "turnover problem"?

    There's another misunderstanding with this dynamic thing. I didn't intend for my inclusion of Marbury/ Crawford/ and Houston to be compared to Kidd/ Allen/ and Kobe. Definitely not. Isiah himself at the time compared his vision of having those three together with the way that he, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson worked on offense. They didn't call Vinnie "The Microwave" for nothing. By dynamic, I meant offensively. At the time, Marbury was a 20 ppg scorer, and so was Allan Houston (pre-injury). Crawford was also an accomplished scorer, so having all three of them would ideally allow Lenny Wilkens to have a flexible scoring three guard rotation going on. We rarely had the chance to see this work with Allan fighting injuries. Defense was not one of the focuses particularly in this case.

    Dikembe Mutombo, Othella Harrington, Cezary Trybanski, and Frank Williams, Jerome Williams = CAP SPACE.
    True, but does that equal us being under the cap by the time those deals expired? No. In Isiah's first couple years, our payroll was around 120 million. How much is it this year? 89 million. 2 years from now? Possibly 70 million.
    Slowly but surely.

    2 lottery picks to Chicago. We've had lottery picks before Isiah also, and for nearly that 13 year span before 2005, the lotto picks we had didn't amount to much at all. You also forget that a few of the players we have on this team were former lottery picks as well. As for Ben Wallace? That's great, 15 million this year and 14.5 million in 2009, and 14 million in 2010. Is he really worth all that money? They are a good team, don't get me wrong. But Ben Gordon is reportedly looking for a new contract via an extension, and so is Luol Deng. They've also just locked up Andres Nocioni for 5 years at 38 million. The Bulls look in good shape right now, but it'll be a concern when their "young stars" look to start cashing in.

    The Bulls also didn't see success with Ron Artest, Elton Brand, Brad Miller, or Tyson Chandler to add to that list with Jamal and Eddy. Chicago is a nice team and they are relevant, but their growth took time. Nearly seven years.

    "Isiah's not right for the Knicks" is your argument. How would he help other teams, and what team in particular?

    Silence, KG and Randolph</ST1 is no comparison.


    Agreed. Ad nauseum. I never intentionally implied or actually said that I'd take Randolph over KG.

    8 guys averaging double digits fact was a weak response to my concern about ball movement. Averaging 97 ppgs and being one of the worst in the league at turnovers isn't good ball MOVEMENT. We can't get any worse, so of course we have to do BETTER.


    There were 5 teams who averaged less than 97 ppg and still made the playoffs. That includes Cleveland, Detroit, Miami, Orlando, and Houston. Turnovers were a big problem for us. We had the worst average. But again, how do you suggest we address this turnover problem to the point where it isn't a concern for you?

    Suns are an elite team, with an elite offense, the points difference and margin is a very important stat.

    Point differential is very important. But their defense was worse than ours. Don't you loathe our defense? Awesome scoring team, no doubt. But you're preaching the importance of interior D, and it'd be somewhat fitting if you were consistent about that in assessing other teams.

    This whole debate started when no one could explain how Randolph</ST1 is going to answer our interior defense problems


    This debate unnecessarily continued when we continued to argue even after I said that he wasn't the answer and that there are other players who would fit better next to Curry.


    Last edited by Roco; Sep 01, 2007 at 01:11.

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    Originally Posted by pyotrveliky
    randolph isnt directly gonna answer our inside d problems and thats not really why we got him. i guess it was to get rid of frye/francis and give us a more potent offense but obviously at this point hes not the best complement to curry on d.
    Co-sign.

    No one questions how getting Renaldo Balkman solves our outside shooting problem, or how Mardy Collins addresses our free throw shooting issues.

    We didn't trade for Zach with the hope that we were getting a defensive monster at the 4. Getting rid of Francis's contract and Frye for an upgrade at the power forward spot and two expirings was the opportunity that Isiah decided to take.

    Does he answer these defensive issues that metro is concerned about? Not really. Let's say that the Blazers accepted the offer from the Spurs, would their fans be completely focused on how Randolph wouldn't appear to be able to contribute to their team defensively? No.

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    wow....strong points on both sides...we need to let this topic rest until the season starts or sumthing....metro, u need to realise that we upgraded from frye...who we have no time to watch an wait to see if he developes....we got rid of francis...made room for nichols...our young talent are mostly well balanced players on offense and defense....long, mobile, athletic players...i have a question fro metro, which nba team has a better bench than us? not saying that we have the best, just want ur opinion....
    nate/dickau/jones
    nichols/collins
    balkman/jeffries
    lee/chandler
    morris/james

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    the only thing im pissed about is that we took on extra contracts, making signing our rookies a problem.

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    When did I say Allen is a PF? Other than that you've got solid points. I don't agree with them all and as Roco pointed out they are some what inconsistent, as specially the Suns comparison. Pvotrveliky is right but look at it this way. We got rid of Francis and are in a better position then we were last season and have valuable players.

    Crack is wack!
    Last edited by donchris; Sep 04, 2007 at 11:11.

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