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Thread: can eddie and zach mix?

  1. #61
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    Roco has failed twice in the row to understand the difference of perspective I see between the front office and the jersey I root for. I root for the Knicks they're my favorite team, I want success. I boo the management when they don't make the best decisions cause I want success for my favorite team. How is that flip flopping? Roco, you've repeated yourself three times and failed to understand. If you're going to write a lot, then at least settle the point. You're just spinning this argument in circles that it doesn't need to go in. Its really simple, I explained it to you in two or three very different ways. Its just a waste of time if you're trying so hard to be misunderstanding.

    I'll answer for you, Roco.

    I'm not convinced Curry or Randolph will lead us consistently to a winning record till I see it. I will root for them so they can surprise me.

    You always bring up the Layden era when Isiah weaknesses are presented to your face. It seems like you shy away from mentioning any of Isiah mistakes(apologist agenda), and look to previous past events that can cover up for Isiah. It has been repeated what you said I've heard the same thing over and over.

    3 years of losing is good because Isiah is "searching". So Isiah can be excused why he searches for a foundation? How can you create a "foundation" when you don't have a core? Similar to the body. You can't do **** without your core, your body is very important for balance and flexibility, especially for sports like boxing and etc.

    Speaking of our core (Eddy Curry), how does he rank up against other "cores" in the NBA? Curry is ranked 25th-30th on the ranking of primary scorers or the core player on teams. Curry isn't even a top 50 overall NBA player. So my question is, how can anyone not be convinced Isiah is a dumbass for having such an inferior core like Curry and expecting winning success?

    Do you think Portland wanted Randolph as their core? Did you believe Chicago wanted Curry as their core? Did you believe Orlando wanted Francis as their core? Did you believe Phoneix wanted Marbury as their core? If you did, you're not very bright. Portland, Orlando, Phoneix, and Chicago wanted something, success, a foundation lead by a real core player who can hold it down for his team and a future.

    Are those teams heading that direction? Yes.

    Why? Portland got rid of an inferior core player with Randolph; with Randolph as the guy in Portland both their defense and offense suffered, while Randolph numbers improved slowly each season. What they did was let a more promising superiorly defensive Aldridge replace Randolph, while leaving the foundation to Oden and Roy, two of the most promising basketball prospects from the United States. Sounds like a good plan to me, I would be pretty excited if Isiah did that for my team.

    Orlando? Steve Francis was expected to replace T'Mac's throne in Orlando. Orlando quickly realized Steve Francis wasn't the type of player that was going to help them win. They let Francis go cause he was holding Dwight's develop back. Dwight wasn't getting enough touches in the post, and it wasn't a good sign for Orlando's future and core(Dwight Howard). Orlando ships Francis and becomes a playoff team the season after. Good progress. Now they have a nice balanced team building their foundation around Dwight Howard, not just some guy who took like 3-4 years to be productive from HS, we're talking about Dwight Howard, one of the best young players and big men you can find in the NBA.

    Chicago? Well its simple. Chicago saw better opportunities for winning and still have the luxury to keep a young foundation of talented players, by trading Curry, for cap space and replacing him with Ben Wallace and Tyrus Thomas. Having one of the best defenses and best point differential isn't a bad step from dumping Curry. Chicago understood the situation and capitalized. Now Chicago is one of the top teams in the East, with a deep squad and still with one of the best set of young talented players who play a lot of minutes.

    Phoneix, well basically they saw Amare emerging and didn't see Marbury taking them to that new level. They traded for cap space and acquired Steve Nash, a guy who took it that new level for Phoneix. Never underestimate the opportunities that cap space can do. You can also look at how GM's misused cap space when they had that opportunity. Which is why I'm kinda afraid if Isiah had cap space, I wouldn't even imagine the ridiculously offers he would give away. Darius Miles signed for 7 years, 393 billion dollars. Trying to recruit the whole Chicago area reject squad or something, lol.


    Anyway, back to what I'm not understand about your post. I understand you have a serious level of appreciation for Isiah's effort. But isn't the team success, benefits and future is more important than your feelings for Isiah?

    3 years of losing with majority the same reasons (defense and turnovers) should convince Isiah isn't trying to address our weaknesses, instead he's making moves that really aren't having much of an impact on our team, but more so the other teams (Phoneix, Portland, Orlando, Chicago, Toronto).

    I give Isiah props for getting Balkman, Collins and Lee. Must respect, the man can find some gems in the draft. But also can't miss the fact he drafted guys like Robinson and Frye a little too high. Simple mistakes, but its okay. Theres other bigger problems to worry about, that I've seen you ignored so much. I'm just trying to keep everyone aware, I love this team and I don't want to see another 30 win season because we don't know how to move and protect the ball or let the team shoot lights us against consistently.

    Actually Roco, the past losing season was decently fun, alot of dramatic games, we saw Balkman and Collins hit the scene, we saw David Lee become the beast he is, we saw Q-Rich play like an all star for a short period of time, we saw Marbury finally matured into an all around unselfish PG, and we even saw Eddy Curry work on his foul problems(even though it was pathetic how he didn't try on defense anymore just to stay on the court and not foul out).



    Roco says:
    I can assure you that I know we don't have the certified shot blocker that we'd like to have. Our defense isn't among the best in the league, as I think we should all hope for someday soon. We have been careless with the ball for the last two seasons, and that's a big concern for most, if not all knicks fans

    I agree 100% to the max.

    I understand your perspectives on the JJ signing. I just never saw it as a smart move from the beginning, unfortunately I was one of the few people who pretty pissed that off season(I'm always pissed each off season). But the Larry Brown signing and Jerome James signing, I honestly saw nothing good coming out of it, I didn't see how they would fit and my hypothesis turned out to be correct.

    Nah, thats only one simple part of being successful. Taking stupid risk isn't part of being successful. You have to be aware at all times. Plus, all those risk Isiah took, didn't really make us "successful" yet.

    I think what you're trying to say, being able to change and adapt is part of being successful. You don't do the same thing for 10 years and expect to be successful. Times change, different trends and etc. You change and adapt in order to be successful. This what Isiah hasn't done. He has not adapt or accepted our weaknesses as seriously he's suppose to. But I'll leave it there. If Isiah gets Artest, I'd forget about most mistakes he made in the past because we'll finally have a sick squad full of perimeter defenders.


    You don't appear on the verge of breaking out in 11 games, lets be serious here Roco. Jerome James was never that good, and because he played good in 11 games doesn't mean he's ready to break out of his role as 3rd string NBA center.

    In 2005, we had a roster of players that didn't pride themselves on defense. You think adding a hard head like Larry Brown wouldn't cause a lot of chaos and tension?

    If Isiah didn't make majority of his trades, we would of been under the cap a long time ago.

    Teams wanted to stop Curry from scoring, but they knew he didn't pass the ball, which made our offense (potentially a very good offense with a lot of weapons), only a 97 ppg offense. I've seen the Knicks last season compete with the best teams offensively in the NBA without Curry on the court, they played more loosely and the defense was immensely improved. Anyway, this was just my observation from last season, I could be proven wrong easily.

    I would address the turnover problem by dropping turnover prone players. Simple.

    Suns are 10th best in the NBA in turnovers committed and are the best team in the NBA at passing the ball...so whats your point? 3 turnovers is a huge DIFFERENCE, you never knew that brother? Suns move the ball at a high up tempo pace and have the best offense in the NBA and have the best assist to turnover ratio in the NBA(Bet you didn't bother to look that up cause it would of killed your argument), Knicks don't have those things. Stop using irrelevant stats that don't help your argument. Bottom line is 17 turnovers a game doesn't equal a good offense, especially when you give the ball to the team a lot with even a weaker defense. Its not a good chemistry for success basically, understand?


    I understand what you mean by Green being younger and "youthier" lol...but Ray Allen is on such an elite level, Boston did the right move. They're trying to win now, and not worry about 3-5 years from now. Hell, I would give up 3 years of losing to see Garnett and Ray Allen on my team.

    Lets say nothing about Kobe or Wade, they're not on the Knicks and won't be on the Knicks anytime soon so I'm not playing with these unreal scenarios. We have a major turnover problem we need to address. You don't address the player by adding more isolation players. You first subtract the turnover prone players and add more offensive aware players.


    Well, you made it seem like you intended Marbury/JC11/H20 to be compared with Kidd Allen and Kobe. Lets not try comparing B level players to A level players, its not very bright.

    Sorry I gotta be mean about this but, Slowly but surely? Thats a loser mentality brother. 90 million dollar pay roll is a good thing now when we could of been off the cap a year ago? Possibly 70 million...lol, we aren't even certain if Isiah will keep let those expiring contracts expire. 120 - 90 million dollars for 20-30 win seasons? Thats poor results and very little success. Not really MUCH to deny that Isiah is a poor GM.

    Roco, me and billions of other Knick fans would much rather have Chicago concerns of locking up their winning foundation than being concerned of still "searching for a foundation".

    Chicago only kept Brand for two seasons? Same with Miller who was only mediocre when he was playing with Chicago and same with Artest.



    Cleveland, Orlando, Houston, and Detroit were some of the best defensive teams in the NBA, thats why they made the playoffs, not because they averaged 97 ppg. You bringing those teams up was a waste of text.


    Wrong, Sun's defense wasn't worse than the Knicks, I have stats to back up it too.


    Oppoents vs the Suns
    45% FGP
    36% 3PT


    Opponents vs the Knicks
    46% FGP
    38% 3PT

    Keep in mind Suns play at the highest tempo in the NBA, so the opposing team is going to have more positions. Where as the Knicks played at a slow pace and still manage to give up 100 points per game. When playing at a high tempo, the opponents PPG is expended to increase, thats an obvious.


    Don't see through a tunnel so much Roco, I'm talking about defense and turnovers. If you bring up the Suns, they have a great turnover/assist ratio, so you bringing them up would only strengthen my point even more. Gracias.


    Originally Posted by Toons
    wow....strong points on both sides...we need to let this topic rest until the season starts or sumthing....metro, u need to realise that we upgraded from frye...who we have no time to watch an wait to see if he developes....we got rid of francis...made room for nichols...our young talent are mostly well balanced players on offense and defense....long, mobile, athletic players...i have a question fro metro, which nba team has a better bench than us? not saying that we have the best, just want ur opinion....
    nate/dickau/jones
    nichols/collins
    balkman/jeffries
    lee/chandler
    morris/james
    I've said countless of times Randolph, Dickua and Jones is an upgrade over Frye and Francis, where did I disagree?

    We improved our talent yes, but we didn't answer the team weaknesses. Thats my point, nothing difficult to understand.

    Originally Posted by donchris
    When did I say Allen is a PF? Other than that you've got solid points. I don't agree with them all and as Roco pointed out they are some what inconsistent, as specially the Suns comparison. Pvotrveliky is right but look at it this way. We got rid of Francis and are in a better position then we were last season and have valuable players.

    Crack is wack!
    Carpy foolishly said Allen would play PF for the Knicks. Unless you and carpy are the same people(I wouldn't be suprised)...I don't see how I was refering to you, unless I made a typo or confused you two for each other.

    I guess no one knows how Randolph will answer the Knicks turnover, interior and perimeter defensive problems. Thank you Isiah for leaving us so clueless.
    Last edited by metrocard; Sep 06, 2007 at 17:27.

  2. #62
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    You just spent the last post devaluing Curry and Randolph in their roles with their old teams, and yet you say that:

    "I will root for them so they can surprise me."<O</O
    <O</O
    You don't believe in Curry and Randolph, but you will root for them so that they can surprise you? That's an odd way to show support.

    <O</OYou want them to do well, but you're not convinced that they can. It simply adds up to that. But when other people find something positive to say about them, it's as though you will hear nothing of it.

    <O</OMalik Rose feels similar, in a sense that he won't say much until he sees Zach play. But here's the thing, unlike you, he's not going to comment at all and he's not coming off as being pessimistic about it.

    <O</OI said that Isiah wasn't perfect. When you bring up trading picks and cap room, you believe that those are mistakes. While I don't believe the exact opposite (like you argue that i do), I think that encountering unfavorable situations will come with trying to fix this team in particular. It appears as though the cap room we "traded" appeals to you as though we could have used that money to sign the same free agent. It seems as though the word lottery pick appeals to you as a player who by default will individually be better than Eddy Curry overall.

    <O</OWhen it comes to "not addressing weaknesses" as a mistake, you and I see it differently. Ask every single Knick fan if they were happy when we signed Larry Brown, and I guarantee you that more than half would say they favored it. Getting Jeffries wasn't addressing a weakness? Nabbing Q-Rich to replace the injury hobbled H20 wasn't addressing a need? 3 years since Isiah's been here, and we went from being one of the oldest teams in the league to having 5 players under 25 who we can arguably bank our future on and two 27 year olds who still have plenty of game left. How do you do that in a span of three years and a half years without having 3 of our own first rounders? Isiah has traded draft picks, but you can't say he hasn't tried to make up for it.
    <O</O
    Honestly, I do think that the Blazers were looking to move Randolph<U1<ST1</U1</ST1, but does it mean that he can't fit anywhere else? They also had a problem with Rasheed, and when he left, he goes and helps a team win a title.

    <O</OYour arguments about <?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:City u2:st="on"><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comOrlando</u1:City></st1:City>, <u1:City u2:st=" /><st1:City w:st="on">Chicago</u1:City></st1:City>, <u1:City u2:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Phoenix</u1:City></st1:City>, and Portland<U1<ST1</U1</ST1 are very understandable and well thought out. Though, you have to consider that these teams were in very different situations. I doubt <u1:City u2:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Portland</u1:City></st1:City> would have dealt Randolph<U1 that quickly had they not had the chance at Oden. In fact, they weren’t even projected to have a top 3 pick. The Blazers haven’t done much for the past few years, and a #1 pick of Oden’s projected future contributions can arguably put you on the right track, no doubt. Honestly, before we traded for Randolph, I thought that he and Oden would make a great inside combo (offense/defense)

    <O</OWhen it comes to Curry, I believe 100&#37; that the Bulls wanted to keep him. They were offering $400,000 annually for 50 years, and that was if he failed the genetic test. At this point, IMO, the Bulls would rather be paying Curry 9 million dollars this year rather than the 15 million owed to Ben Wallace.
    <O</O
    Metro, it does look like the Magic have benefited from removing Francis. But how would you explain the Rockets picking him up? Is he really the antithesis of success? He didn't fit here as we'd have liked, but put him in the right situation, and i think he'll flourish. By the way, with all that crap that the Knicks got with this whole "can the backcourt co-exist" thing, I've yet to hear much criticism about Francis pairing with a guy like T-Mac in the backcourt.

    Phoenix<U1 had to endure a 29-53 season before they got Nash. It might be a matter of cap space for the Suns, but for us, the cap room wasn't ours to use had we let certain players expire at that point. Chicago<U1 had good pieces before, but they weren't patient enough. Elton Brand was already a 20-10 guy when he finished his first season. Artest would eventually become the DPOY after leaving. Brad Miller would become an all-star. For that short time that he was there, the Bulls didn't put too much into his possible improvement. They even made the playoffs with Curry (their leading scorer during the regular season) in their frontcourt. <O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    I understand you have a serious level of appreciation for Isiah's effort. But isn't the team success, benefits and future is more important than your feelings for Isiah?<O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    I like Isiah, but it's not to the point where I will blindly defend every single thing that he does. Again, I'll say it, it's playoffs or bust with a healthy team this upcoming season. The problem here arises when you and I look at Isiah's "setbacks" differently. Whereas you focus on the exportation of draft picks and expirings, I see it too, but I also find that we've been able to attain assets and serviceable players as well. Bring us back to the past, and there are things that I would change. But I just don't think that Isiah deserves crap all the time. Am I biased? No, and I believe that 1000%. It's just a matter of us looking at what's happened through different perspectives and the difference in our opinion about how things will continue to develop. <O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    3 years of losing with majority the same reasons (defense and turnovers) should convince Isiah isn't trying to address our weaknesses, instead he's making moves that really aren't having much of an impact on our team, but more so the other teams (Phoneix, Portland, Orlando, Chicago, Toronto). <O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    But 3 years of losing with the same players? That's another place where you and I split. And this is why I bring up Layden. From 2001 to 2003-04, we too saw a lottery pick go, and we too saw gambles. During that time, when we did have a losing season, there was absolutely little sign of hope. You don’t need me to repeat what we went through, but we saw our lotto pick rot on the bench and we had no center. That team did not seem to care. They probably wanted to win, but they didn't look like they hated to lose. Squandered double digit leads, Clarence Weatherspoon taking mid-range jumpers, relying on <st1:City w:st="on">Houston</st1:City> and <ST1Spree to carry this team every night. One newspaper even said at the time "Not good enough to make the playoffs, not bad enough to get LeBron." <O></O>
    <O> </O>
    Look at our team now. We had several veterans supporting our summer league team. We have a point guard who bought into the way our coach wants him to play. We're forming an identity as an inside-game oriented team. 33 wins last season? Boo. Do we have a chance at 43 this season? As a fan, I believe so. Do we still have work to do? Damn right. Marbury says that we’ll be better. David Lee told fans to expect big things. Our players are excited to be playing with each other, and they actually care.<O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    I love this team and I don't want to see another 30 win season because we don't know how to move and protect the ball or let the team shoot lights us against consistently. <O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    Amen. And I believe that the basketball mind of someone who has led winning teams built on intensity and hard work is a million times more concerned about it. I know he'll demand more out of this team this season. <O></O>
    <O></O>
    Actually Roco, the past losing season was decently fun, alot of dramatic games, we saw Balkman and Collins hit the scene, we saw David Lee become the beast he is, we saw Q-Rich play like an all star for a short period of time, we saw Marbury finally matured into an all around unselfish PG, and we even saw Eddy Curry work on his foul problems(even though it was pathetic how he didn't try on defense anymore just to stay on the court and not foul out).

    <O></O>
    The majority of those players you menitoned sound like an important part of our core to me, actually. And this is significant considering that all but one of these players weren't here 3 years ago, and did not follow until almost 2 years later. <O></O>
    <O></O>
    This what Isiah hasn't done. He has not adapt or accepted our weaknesses as seriously he's suppose to. But I'll leave it there. If Isiah gets Artest, I'd forget about most mistakes he made in the past because we'll finally have a sick squad full of perimeter defenders.
    <O></O>

    <O></O>
    Isiah saw a dominant scoring big man, and he took advantage of the opportunity. Have Curry on this team before Jerome James, and that signing most likely would never have happened. In fact, I remember Isiah targeting James Jones and DeSagana Diop to split the mid-level. I don't want to keep repeating myself about Larry Brown, Q-Rich and a pick, or Jeffries either. <O></O>
    <O></O>
    We still have young players who are about to enter their prime. We can still work with them. When we have a young team that is still developing, we can have them develop their games around each other. Look at David Lee, he's become a guy who has focused on rebounding and reliant on picking up scraps for points. Balkman knows that he is expected to be one of our most prime defenders. Nate knows that he needs to be the spark plug off the bench. Mardy's size at the point will make post-entry passes harder to defend. Marbury has already acknowledged that Curry has the keys to this team's success. Our young players are learning together, learning to defer to each other, and in the long run, we will develop the chemistry that we hope for.
    <O</O
    About that so-called "waste of text". Okay, 1% differential on FG, and 2% 3pt FG. The Knicks only got 97 points per game. But when it comes to other teams, you can't judge them the same way? Your argument actually makes things pretty clear: Different teams play to their strengths. Would you call the Suns a good defensive team? <O></O>
    <O></O>
    ></O>
    Hey, the Suns are a top-tier team. No question. You implied that their style of play allows the opposing team to get more points. Different teams play to their strengths. Your assist/turnover ratio point is interesting to bring up, but I’ll ask you again. Is their defense something that you would like the Knicks to someday emulate? Simple question.
    <O</O
    <O> </O>
    <O></O>
    Lets say nothing about <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1Kobe</ST1</st1:City> or Wade, they're not on the Knicks and won't be on the Knicks anytime soon so I'm not playing with these unreal scenarios. We have a major turnover problem we need to address. You don't address the player by adding more isolation players. You first subtract the turnover prone players and add more offensive aware players. <O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    Don't beat around the bush. It seems that you wouldn't give a crap about turnovers given that either of the two were to play in NY. The fact that they don't have the chance to be on this team is irrelevant. You avoiding to address your reaction to adding a player of a high turnover average is relevant. You could have good intentions with your argument. I understand, we don't need to add players who need the ball most of the time right? But in terms of being offensively aware, who would you have targeted this season? <O></O>
    <O></O>
    Sorry I gotta be mean about this but, Slowly but surely? Thats a loser mentality brother. 90 million dollar pay roll is a good thing now when we could of been off the cap a year ago? Possibly 70 million...lol, we aren't even certain if Isiah will keep let those expiring contracts expire. 120 - 90 million dollars for 20-30 win seasons? Thats poor results and very little success. Not really MUCH to deny that Isiah is a poor GM.<O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    Take into context what I said however you want, but if you're not going to interpret it the way it should, then it's not my fault. Are you saying we would've been off the cap last summer, even with <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1lace Houston</ST1</st1:City>'s contract still on the payroll? You don't mention the fact that we let Mo Taylor walk, and Isiah was criticized for giving up that expiring for nothing as opposed to utilizing it via trade. <O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    "120 - 90 million dollars for 20-30 win seasons?" <O></O>
    <O></O>
    <O></O>
    120 million for a losing team is bad enough, but now you ignore the fact that we're actually starting to reduce our payroll. Significantly. Give the least amount of financial responsibility credit when a small amount of financial responsibility credit is due. <O></O>

    Oh, and both you and I made a blunder about Zach Randolph. He actually did make the playoffs, twice. The first year? 0 games.

    The second year? The Blazers were on the verge of history. Down 0-3 to the Mavericks during the first round, they rallied 3 straight wins to force a decisive Game 7.

    Game 4:

    Zach Randolph was the leading scorer. 25 points 15 rebounds.

    Game 5:

    Zach Randolph led again with 22 points and 9 rebounds.

    Game 6:

    22 points 10 rebounds.

    Game 7:

    A modest 14 and 10.

    If we brought up the "at his best" card, well, i guess you could say that Zach Randolph "at his best" (with a good amount of support around him) helped lead the near overthrowing of a 60 win team in the playoffs.
    Last edited by Roco; Sep 07, 2007 at 02:12.

  3. #63
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    Nyk Logo

    This is not for any outsiders to take out of contect.

    Eddy Curry is a one dimensional player that never had to put in the Hard-Work-Out for years just to get into the NBA like 95% of the NBA Players had to do just to get drafted.
    YES! Isiah Thomas gave Eddy Curry plenty of playingtime and way to many offensive-touches to boost his Stat-Sheet last season which cost the Knicks into having a losing 33 Win season. This was the only way for Isiah to "SAVE-FACE" in some respect.

    Will Zach Randolph pan-out? well the samething Isiah did for Curry last season the Portland Trailblazers been doing for Zach Randolph to find a taker.

    Being that Zach Randolph did not participate in any of the offseason workouts with his new teammates, plus Portland put Channing Frye way above Zach Randolph (by buying Francis out, show a big sign) there is NO way on Gods green earth will I let Zach Randolph "START" over an outstanding Player like David Lee.
    I would rather see David lee Start and average 13 to 15 rebounds per game WINNING more games than losing, rather than Zach & Curry trying to learn each other position in the paint. Zach Randolph could help this Knick Team WIN if he come off the bench.

    Which brings me to the trading History and Coaching style of President/Coach Isiah Thomas. It's becomming very hard to believe he actually played this game. Every new traded player Isiah brings to this Knicks gets to be a Starter before they get a uniform and Locker. This is why so many of his trades backed Fired in his face. Unorganized team.
    He gave away THREE First round draft picks for Marbury & Curry. So far the best thing and only thing that Isiah Thomas has been good at in New York is picking some of the best players in the draft.

    Whats with the sports writers putting a "ALL-Star Player" LABEL on Zach Randolph this offseason this is the samething they did with Eddy Curry, yet neither player ever been in a NBA All-Star game. Is this to Swell-up people heads.
    Both Players are BIG-MEN that average over 32 MPG the last two seasons and I can not recall one game where they got 18 to 20 rebounds within those two years.

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    wow, you guys have a lot of time on your hands... I dont think anyone but you two read all that. Why dont you call each other?

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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    Roco has failed twice in the row to understand the difference of perspective I see between the front office and the jersey I root for. I root for the Knicks they're my favorite team, I want success. I boo the management when they don't make the best decisions cause I want success for my favorite team. How is that flip flopping? Roco, you've repeated yourself three times and failed to understand. If you're going to write a lot, then at least settle the point. You're just spinning this argument in circles that it doesn't need to go in. Its really simple, I explained it to you in two or three very different ways. Its just a waste of time if you're trying so hard to be misunderstanding.

    I'll answer for you, Roco.

    I'm not convinced Curry or Randolph will lead us consistently to a winning record till I see it. I will root for them so they can surprise me.

    You always bring up the Layden era when Isiah weaknesses are presented to your face. It seems like you shy away from mentioning any of Isiah mistakes(apologist agenda), and look to previous past events that can cover up for Isiah. It has been repeated what you said I've heard the same thing over and over.

    3 years of losing is good because Isiah is "searching". So Isiah can be excused why he searches for a foundation? How can you create a "foundation" when you don't have a core? Similar to the body. You can't do **** without your core, your body is very important for balance and flexibility, especially for sports like boxing and etc.

    Speaking of our core (Eddy Curry), how does he rank up against other "cores" in the NBA? Curry is ranked 25th-30th on the ranking of primary scorers or the core player on teams. Curry isn't even a top 50 overall NBA player. So my question is, how can anyone not be convinced Isiah is a dumbass for having such an inferior core like Curry and expecting winning success?

    Do you think Portland wanted Randolph as their core? Did you believe Chicago wanted Curry as their core? Did you believe Orlando wanted Francis as their core? Did you believe Phoneix wanted Marbury as their core? If you did, you're not very bright. Portland, Orlando, Phoneix, and Chicago wanted something, success, a foundation lead by a real core player who can hold it down for his team and a future.

    Are those teams heading that direction? Yes.

    Why? Portland got rid of an inferior core player with Randolph; with Randolph as the guy in Portland both their defense and offense suffered, while Randolph numbers improved slowly each season. What they did was let a more promising superiorly defensive Aldridge replace Randolph, while leaving the foundation to Oden and Roy, two of the most promising basketball prospects from the United States. Sounds like a good plan to me, I would be pretty excited if Isiah did that for my team.

    Orlando? Steve Francis was expected to replace T'Mac's throne in Orlando. Orlando quickly realized Steve Francis wasn't the type of player that was going to help them win. They let Francis go cause he was holding Dwight's develop back. Dwight wasn't getting enough touches in the post, and it wasn't a good sign for Orlando's future and core(Dwight Howard). Orlando ships Francis and becomes a playoff team the season after. Good progress. Now they have a nice balanced team building their foundation around Dwight Howard, not just some guy who took like 3-4 years to be productive from HS, we're talking about Dwight Howard, one of the best young players and big men you can find in the NBA.

    Chicago? Well its simple. Chicago saw better opportunities for winning and still have the luxury to keep a young foundation of talented players, by trading Curry, for cap space and replacing him with Ben Wallace and Tyrus Thomas. Having one of the best defenses and best point differential isn't a bad step from dumping Curry. Chicago understood the situation and capitalized. Now Chicago is one of the top teams in the East, with a deep squad and still with one of the best set of young talented players who play a lot of minutes.

    Phoneix, well basically they saw Amare emerging and didn't see Marbury taking them to that new level. They traded for cap space and acquired Steve Nash, a guy who took it that new level for Phoneix. Never underestimate the opportunities that cap space can do. You can also look at how GM's misused cap space when they had that opportunity. Which is why I'm kinda afraid if Isiah had cap space, I wouldn't even imagine the ridiculously offers he would give away. Darius Miles signed for 7 years, 393 billion dollars. Trying to recruit the whole Chicago area reject squad or something, lol.


    Anyway, back to what I'm not understand about your post. I understand you have a serious level of appreciation for Isiah's effort. But isn't the team success, benefits and future is more important than your feelings for Isiah?

    3 years of losing with majority the same reasons (defense and turnovers) should convince Isiah isn't trying to address our weaknesses, instead he's making moves that really aren't having much of an impact on our team, but more so the other teams (Phoneix, Portland, Orlando, Chicago, Toronto).

    I give Isiah props for getting Balkman, Collins and Lee. Must respect, the man can find some gems in the draft. But also can't miss the fact he drafted guys like Robinson and Frye a little too high. Simple mistakes, but its okay. Theres other bigger problems to worry about, that I've seen you ignored so much. I'm just trying to keep everyone aware, I love this team and I don't want to see another 30 win season because we don't know how to move and protect the ball or let the team shoot lights us against consistently.

    Actually Roco, the past losing season was decently fun, alot of dramatic games, we saw Balkman and Collins hit the scene, we saw David Lee become the beast he is, we saw Q-Rich play like an all star for a short period of time, we saw Marbury finally matured into an all around unselfish PG, and we even saw Eddy Curry work on his foul problems(even though it was pathetic how he didn't try on defense anymore just to stay on the court and not foul out).



    Roco says:
    I can assure you that I know we don't have the certified shot blocker that we'd like to have. Our defense isn't among the best in the league, as I think we should all hope for someday soon. We have been careless with the ball for the last two seasons, and that's a big concern for most, if not all knicks fans

    I agree 100% to the max.

    I understand your perspectives on the JJ signing. I just never saw it as a smart move from the beginning, unfortunately I was one of the few people who pretty pissed that off season(I'm always pissed each off season). But the Larry Brown signing and Jerome James signing, I honestly saw nothing good coming out of it, I didn't see how they would fit and my hypothesis turned out to be correct.

    Nah, thats only one simple part of being successful. Taking stupid risk isn't part of being successful. You have to be aware at all times. Plus, all those risk Isiah took, didn't really make us "successful" yet.

    I think what you're trying to say, being able to change and adapt is part of being successful. You don't do the same thing for 10 years and expect to be successful. Times change, different trends and etc. You change and adapt in order to be successful. This what Isiah hasn't done. He has not adapt or accepted our weaknesses as seriously he's suppose to. But I'll leave it there. If Isiah gets Artest, I'd forget about most mistakes he made in the past because we'll finally have a sick squad full of perimeter defenders.


    You don't appear on the verge of breaking out in 11 games, lets be serious here Roco. Jerome James was never that good, and because he played good in 11 games doesn't mean he's ready to break out of his role as 3rd string NBA center.

    In 2005, we had a roster of players that didn't pride themselves on defense. You think adding a hard head like Larry Brown wouldn't cause a lot of chaos and tension?

    If Isiah didn't make majority of his trades, we would of been under the cap a long time ago.

    Teams wanted to stop Curry from scoring, but they knew he didn't pass the ball, which made our offense (potentially a very good offense with a lot of weapons), only a 97 ppg offense. I've seen the Knicks last season compete with the best teams offensively in the NBA without Curry on the court, they played more loosely and the defense was immensely improved. Anyway, this was just my observation from last season, I could be proven wrong easily.

    I would address the turnover problem by dropping turnover prone players. Simple.

    Suns are 10th best in the NBA in turnovers committed and are the best team in the NBA at passing the ball...so whats your point? 3 turnovers is a huge DIFFERENCE, you never knew that brother? Suns move the ball at a high up tempo pace and have the best offense in the NBA and have the best assist to turnover ratio in the NBA(Bet you didn't bother to look that up cause it would of killed your argument), Knicks don't have those things. Stop using irrelevant stats that don't help your argument. Bottom line is 17 turnovers a game doesn't equal a good offense, especially when you give the ball to the team a lot with even a weaker defense. Its not a good chemistry for success basically, understand?


    I understand what you mean by Green being younger and "youthier" lol...but Ray Allen is on such an elite level, Boston did the right move. They're trying to win now, and not worry about 3-5 years from now. Hell, I would give up 3 years of losing to see Garnett and Ray Allen on my team.

    Lets say nothing about Kobe or Wade, they're not on the Knicks and won't be on the Knicks anytime soon so I'm not playing with these unreal scenarios. We have a major turnover problem we need to address. You don't address the player by adding more isolation players. You first subtract the turnover prone players and add more offensive aware players.


    Well, you made it seem like you intended Marbury/JC11/H20 to be compared with Kidd Allen and Kobe. Lets not try comparing B level players to A level players, its not very bright.

    Sorry I gotta be mean about this but, Slowly but surely? Thats a loser mentality brother. 90 million dollar pay roll is a good thing now when we could of been off the cap a year ago? Possibly 70 million...lol, we aren't even certain if Isiah will keep let those expiring contracts expire. 120 - 90 million dollars for 20-30 win seasons? Thats poor results and very little success. Not really MUCH to deny that Isiah is a poor GM.

    Roco, me and billions of other Knick fans would much rather have Chicago concerns of locking up their winning foundation than being concerned of still "searching for a foundation".

    Chicago only kept Brand for two seasons? Same with Miller who was only mediocre when he was playing with Chicago and same with Artest.



    Cleveland, Orlando, Houston, and Detroit were some of the best defensive teams in the NBA, thats why they made the playoffs, not because they averaged 97 ppg. You bringing those teams up was a waste of text.


    Wrong, Sun's defense wasn't worse than the Knicks, I have stats to back up it too.


    Oppoents vs the Suns
    45% FGP
    36% 3PT


    Opponents vs the Knicks
    46% FGP
    38% 3PT

    Keep in mind Suns play at the highest tempo in the NBA, so the opposing team is going to have more positions. Where as the Knicks played at a slow pace and still manage to give up 100 points per game. When playing at a high tempo, the opponents PPG is expended to increase, thats an obvious.


    Don't see through a tunnel so much Roco, I'm talking about defense and turnovers. If you bring up the Suns, they have a great turnover/assist ratio, so you bringing them up would only strengthen my point even more. Gracias.




    I've said countless of times Randolph, Dickua and Jones is an upgrade over Frye and Francis, where did I disagree?

    We improved our talent yes, but we didn't answer the team weaknesses. Thats my point, nothing difficult to understand.



    Carpy foolishly said Allen would play PF for the Knicks. Unless you and carpy are the same people(I wouldn't be suprised)...I don't see how I was refering to you, unless I made a typo or confused you two for each other.

    I guess no one knows how Randolph will answer the Knicks turnover, interior and perimeter defensive problems. Thank you Isiah for leaving us so clueless.
    Great Point on the Knicks and Isiah!!!

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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    This is not for any outsiders to take out of contect.

    Eddy Curry is a one dimensional player that never had to put in the Hard-Work-Out for years just to get into the NBA like 95% of the NBA Players had to do just to get drafted.
    YES! Isiah Thomas gave Eddy Curry plenty of playingtime and way to many offensive-touches to boost his Stat-Sheet last season which cost the Knicks into having a losing 33 Win season. This was the only way for Isiah to "SAVE-FACE" in some respect.

    Will Zach Randolph pan-out? well the samething Isiah did for Curry last season the Portland Trailblazers been doing for Zach Randolph to find a taker.

    Being that Zach Randolph did not participate in any of the offseason workouts with his new teammates, plus Portland put Channing Frye way above Zach Randolph (by buying Francis out, show a big sign) there is NO way on Gods green earth will I let Zach Randolph "START" over an outstanding Player like David Lee.
    I would rather see David lee Start and average 13 to 15 rebounds per game WINNING more games than losing, rather than Zach & Curry trying to learn each other position in the paint. Zach Randolph could help this Knick Team WIN if he come off the bench.

    Which brings me to the trading History and Coaching style of President/Coach Isiah Thomas. It's becomming very hard to believe he actually played this game. Every new traded player Isiah brings to this Knicks gets to be a Starter before they get a uniform and Locker. This is why so many of his trades backed Fired in his face. Unorganized team.
    He gave away THREE First round draft picks for Marbury & Curry. So far the best thing and only thing that Isiah Thomas has been good at in New York is picking some of the best players in the draft.

    Whats with the sports writers putting a "ALL-Star Player" LABEL on Zach Randolph this offseason this is the samething they did with Eddy Curry, yet neither player ever been in a NBA All-Star game. Is this to Swell-up people heads.
    Both Players are BIG-MEN that average over 32 MPG the last two seasons and I can not recall one game where they got 18 to 20 rebounds within those two years.
    This is why you are not the coach. The plan is very simple: Run the offense through the scoring center. Why make every argument about his faults. We all acknowledge he has them. Why not point out his strengths as well. You don't because you are bias. No one can stop Curry one on one so they double him. Last season this was an issue for him because he had rarely been doubled and did not know how/when to pass out of the double. This is because Chicago did a **** job developing Curry. Then Thomas gets him, sees potential but perhaps put an under qualified guy in the position of being a team leader. I'll give you that. Still, can't forget his strengths. Can't forget that there's virtually no one else better than Curry at the center position that is available. I've only been asking for three months for one of you guys to name one player at the Center position that's available and better than Curry all around and I've yet to get a name.

    Marbury is entering the final two years of his contract so why are we still talking about the trade that brought him here? Can you honestly say that he hasn't improved each year? Is he taking less shots to get his team mates involved?

    Randolph should and will start over Lee. I like Lee, he's good but he does not have the experience or dominance or passing ability of Zach Randolph. Having Randolph/Lee gives us depth and potentially will make is the best rebounding team in the league.

    We need to go back a year or so and read a few posts. I swore I read a few of you guys making trade suggestions for Zach way before there were any real trade talks. Now all of a sudden it's a bad thing? It might work and it might not but it's an improvement non the less. Francis gone. Frye gone. Half of the posters on this site were begging for Frye to be traded now that he's gone he's Jesus. I don't get it.

    Eddie Curry and draft picks that did absolutely nothing in the league don't hurt the Knicks. Would you rather have the useless picks over Curry? Does your bias blind you that much?

    Final point: All-star talk is based on skill level, stats and product consumption. Curry and Randolph are skilled but are not big names. A discrepant Shaq made it over Curry. Do you really want to label Curry as a slacker because he didn't make the all-star games? Every year there is a player that gets left out that is questionable. I chose to be optimistic about the team rather then pessimistic. I see more reason that the front court will work then reasons why it wont. Can it really be any worse than Curry/Frye or Curry/Jeffries? If you think so you may want to watch a few Randolph clips.

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    Originally Posted by Kiyaman
    Its bad when we Knick-Fans know that Frye playingtime this past season he was BARRED from playing in the paint.


    What I do know (as Pure-Fact) is how well "Curry & Lee" have done together in the past as STARTERS, and I would take my chance with that as the STARTERS of this season.


    Coach Larry Brown rarely put Curry & Frye on the court together in midseason, Frye played the majority of his playingtime alongside C-Jackie Butler, or PF-Taylor, or PF-Lee, untill he got injured (that is why he Bulked-up last offseason)
    Ur first statement i quoted is ridiculous, theres a reason frye is not in da paint cuz he is soft and ineffective in a paint, he does most of his damage on offense on a pick and roll, and frye is going get killed in da west on defense, they goin eat em alive...

    for ur second statement, the reason curry and lee look good together on da court is because lee is a good passer while frye would rather fake a pass and then pull up, if u watch knick games u would see frye stopping the ball rotation or he would pass it to late by hesitating

    and for ur last statement, dat is completely wrong cuz larry brown didnt even play david lee, i remember him starting em and the knicks went 5-0 in those games and then david lee disappeared, and jackie butler didnt get much minutes till the end of the season and i dont know why frye trying to bulk up cuz strength is not his game

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    This thread has been officially divided between two types of people...the pessimist (and we all know who they are since they seem to stick together) and the realist/optimist. I'm going to say it straight up...kiyaman talks a bunch of bull half the time...and i'm just being real. Don't get me wrong you have made some good points. But I barely even respect your opinion because it has so much bias in it that it's almost irrelevant. Again we're all rooting for the same team so why diss knick players to the max if they are knicks? The Don had a point, we all know the players weaknesses...so why keep repeating yourselves about the obvious to only scratch to keep your point alive. No one here is praising Isiah, no one here is praising Curry to be the next greatest big man, no one is praising JC of being the next greatest SG...we all know they have faults. So to keep repeating them foolishly is getting annoying. Roco had some great points as well...you're posts were so long I can't name all of them lol but you definitely had some great points. Why can't we all be real with each other and state unbiased opinions. Take emotions out of your words and put intelligence in and this forum would go much smoother...

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    First let me say to The 1 and Only and Dr. Carpy that I appreciate your acknowledgement.

    Eddy Curry is a one dimensional player that never had to put in the Hard-Work-Out for years just to get into the NBA like 95% of the NBA Players had to do just to get drafted.
    YES! Isiah Thomas gave Eddy Curry plenty of playingtime and way to many offensive-touches to boost his Stat-Sheet last season which cost the Knicks into having a losing 33 Win season. This was the only way for Isiah to "SAVE-FACE" in some respect.
    Eddy Curry is not 32 or 33 years old. He hasn't reached his ceiling yet. With that in mind, I expect him to work hard in trying to improve his defensive mindset and his rebounding. I am expecting him to to that. I'm not absolutely guaranteeing it or imposing you to believe it.

    Isiah put heavy responsibility on a guy who had yet to show some consistency in his young career. Hell, this guy was young enough to be a senior coming out of college. With that responsibility, Curry delivered. Don't try to discredit the stride he made last season by making baloney excuses.
    You could say that all we did was force-feed Curry, but you can't ignore the fact that he contributed with career highs in scoring, rebounding, and field goal percentage. I can't believe it, the guy just had a breakout season and shows us improvement, and while it is reasonable to demand continuous improvement, it isn't right to attempt to disprove his worth.

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    LOL... Metro said... Curry is not a top 50 player.

    I gaurantee, if we ran a draft and all teams in the NBA had no players, Curry would definately be picked somewhere before the top 50 lol.

    Greg Oden is a bum. And now he is a hurt bum. He went over a way more skilled player ( Durant, heck even Horford ) Because the league still revolves around big men.

    Again, we know what deficiencies he has. But it's clear from last year he is trying to fix them. Even if he never becomes a great defensive player, his offensive prowess is so good, he'd surely be picked by many teams. Especially off of last season.

    Oh, by the way, Curry>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both the players that the Bulls drafted with the picks in the trade.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    LOL... Metro said... Curry is not a top 50 player.

    I gaurantee, if we ran a draft and all teams in the NBA had no players, Curry would definately be picked somewhere before the top 50 lol.

    Greg Oden is a bum. And now he is a hurt bum. He went over a way more skilled player ( Durant, heck even Horford ) Because the league still revolves around big men.

    Again, we know what deficiencies he has. But it's clear from last year he is trying to fix them. Even if he never becomes a great defensive player, his offensive prowess is so good, he'd surely be picked by many teams. Especially off of last season.

    Oh, by the way, Curry>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both the players that the Bulls drafted with the picks in the trade.
    Yea, saying Curry is not in the top 50 might be the dumbest comment of the year...I'm nominating that one lol. That one and Isiah would "save face" instead of getting Ws lol. But Greg Oden is far from a bum though...he has physical attributes that no one can teach. Plus he has hook shots with both hands, works hard, runs the floor, and shoots FT with his off hand better than most bigs can shoot with their shooting hand. Also he might be one of the best defensive big men in the league as of right now even though he has yet to play a game. He is sometimes a lil over-agressive but he'll tame that once he gets accustomed to the league's play

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    Originally Posted by The 1 and Only
    Yea, saying Curry is not in the top 50 might be the dumbest comment of the year...I'm nominating that one lol. That one and Isiah would "save face" instead of getting Ws lol. But Greg Oden is far from a bum though...he has physical attributes that no one can teach. Plus he has hook shots with both hands, works hard, runs the floor, and shoots FT with his off hand better than most bigs can shoot with their shooting hand. Also he might be one of the best defensive big men in the league as of right now even though he has yet to play a game. He is sometimes a lil over-agressive but he'll tame that once he gets accustomed to the league's play

    I never liked Oden. He was a great in college because he was the biggest. He could do non of that on a consistant basis in the summer league, forget about vs the real big boys. But, he is only 18 or whatever. Plenty to grow. I have to see it though. I used to say the same things about Curry. So there is hope.

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    i think ode's problem will be passiveness more so than over-aggressiveness, but if hes the number one guy in portland maybe thatll change.

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    LOL...Knicks4lyfe...typed a lot but said nothing. Curry isn't a top 50 NBA player, he isn't even better than Marbury and Randolph. Oden is a bum because he got injured for the whole season? Oh boy. Great job on saying a lot of nothing with nothing explained.

    youadmireme2, not really. You probably do since you read the whole thing, I've been busy with school/work/boxing/my better ho and etc. If I wasn't I would be debating with my friend Roco all day. This is the best guy to debate with Isiah because he comes with facts more often than others who cry and are very emotional in their post. You can always expect a good quality post from Roco.

    Roco this post is going to be general, I'm not going to thrown facts and kill the arguments, because I only got 15 minutes here, I need 30 minutes of posting to reply to you, so what I'll do is reply, which you will probably reply with something longer, but still repeat the same thing.

    Roco, why is it odd? cause I'm not doing it "your way"? You seem pretty objective there.

    If you value Eddy Curry and Jamal Crawford more than cap space and lottery draft picks, then fine. I don't, because I want a winning team. I just understand we didn't get the best value out of that trade for our team and the future.

    You believe Isiah is the only one who had to face an unfavorable situation as a GM? What about the GM's of the other weaker teams in the NBA who lose alot of games? Obviously you don't, so what makes Isiah so special.

    Most Knick fans wanted Larry Brown because he was a big name coached, but it doesn't change the fact that most Knick fans didn't understand Brown and the TEAM weren't going to mesh together right away. It was an odd mix that would of most likely lead to disaster, which it did. I saw this right away when the rumors were spreading, I rather have a coach who knows how to work with immature NBA players, not a hard headed guy like Brown. This is why Isiah is such a bad GM, he doesn't address the weaknesses of the team; he just addresses the media and the fans.

    If Knicks are weak in turnovers, who did they get to help?
    Crawford, Curry, Francis, Jalen Rose, etc.

    If Knicks are weak in interior and perimeter defense, their answer is?
    Randolph.


    I can say Isiah hasn't made up for those draft picks, because he hasn't.

    You believe, but don't know. Trust me, Bulls are enjoying the young core of players they got over waiting and losing for Curry's fatass to develop his weak rebounding, lack of offensive awareness and limited defensive skills.

    We got owned in the Francis deal. Not even in a Phoneix offense Marbury and Francis would flourish. Francis isolates the ball too offense is dribbles like a headless chicken going in no direction. You really have no argument here, why go back and forth? Knicks lost valuable cap space (that could of been used for a better trade or for the cap), plus a defense player would could use in Ariza(You could never have enough defense).

    Phoenix had to endure one 29 win season to become elite. We had to endure over 3-4 to even be talked about in the 8th seed of the Eastern Conference(It saddens me that most NBA fans don't even see the Knicks making the 8th seed).

    No way Roco, we had to let those contracts expire? I never knew that, I wonder for what??? I don't think its get under the cap, is it? Ohh no, thats not good. We gotta keep overloading on contracts of unproven losing players till we hope they get it together all meshed on the same team with the inability to address our weaknesses. I wonder how which takes longer, that or signing key free agents like Phoenix did with Nash or Chicago did with Wallace.


    Roco don't ever bull**** anything around me, unlike some people I watch the NBA. Curry was injured for the Bulls at the end of their playoff season, they made a RUN without Eddy Curry and got into the playoffs easily without him. You think I didn't remember? Come on now.

    Weren't patient enough? Has Isiah been patience? I normally throw facts, but this something I'm not sure about. What GM has made more transactions than Isiah Thomas in the last 3-4 years? Talk about a whole contradiction against your argument. I honestly think you have the same feelings against Isiah like I do, but want to keep going on this debate. lol, I understand.

    Roco, what will you say next season? I'm getting used to hearing the same thing each season to the point I brush it off and don't pay attention to it.

    Look at our team now? With Layden, our team was brushing the 8th seed. With Isiah, its still the same. You're not making any points here. Our team actually needs secures itself in the playoffs instead of fall out of the playoffs each year by 4-5 games before you praise Isiah like a God.

    and when you compare Isiah to a ****ty GM like Layden, you're not helping your argument. Why don't pick up a piece of donkey **** in one hand and cow **** in the other and see which one stinks more? Pretty pointless eh?

    You have one words for the 33 win season, and that word is boo? Who are you, Mr Rodgers? I expect more passion and emotion, especially from a Knicks fan. Knicks fan from around my way get loud and passionate about losses and victories. The Knick fans from the South, Canada and other random places in the USA seem less passionate and more Isiah-friendly, pretty weird.

    I understand your point of getting over the past, but seriously at least show me that you are aware and understand we're a poorly constructed team with a GM who didn't know what the **** he was doing 2 years ago. Now this year Isiah just told us the team has started its rebuilding. What the **** was Isiah doing his first two years? Using the Knicks organization like its a ****ty acardedy NBA Live 06 video game?

    What do you want Marbury and David Lee to say? We're going to win 13 games? Of course they'll be positive about it, they're suppose. This organization is under Dolan's control, don't you know anything about that? Brown was too negative and got the boot. You should of known this before this post.

    Curry isn't a dominant big man. He PPG rate is the same with increase minutes. He doesn't foul as often because he didn't play aggressive defense anymore, so he can stay on the court. I saw over 60 games of the Knicks last season and I saw this on a consistent basis. Curry's numbers improved as a player, but his weaknesses on offense and defense remained the same.

    The dominant big men in the NBA are skilled big men with PASSING ABILITY and can dictate the offense in a positive rather negative way(Garnett, Duncan, Shaq, Brand, etc) They're not black holes in the offense, and don't kill ball movement.

    Isiah never took advantage of that opportunity, he let Chicago take advantage of our opportunity.

    When a team has a terrible season they get rewarded with a high lottery pick. We gave up about 3 years of lottery picks to Chicago and cap space for a player who hasn't taken us out of the lottery. Isiah gave up 3 years of our losing seasons to get Curry, and now we gotta wait 3-4 years for Curry to reach full potential when its not even guaranteed with his slow and limited progression? What are doing, rotating a decade around Curry? It just seems retarded to me, and I'm not down with it.

    Once again, you don't know they're going to enter their prime, stop predicting the future. Thats something I can't argue with and you run away from argument when you do this, which wastes a lot of time and text.

    Why are you comparing the Suns and the Knicks? The Suns don't focus their style around defense or depend to win defensively like the Spurs or Bulls, because they have the best offense in the NBA. Only 97 ppg? Are you happy with the Knicks averaging 97 ppg with one of the worst defenses in the league? So because Suns allow their opponents to average over 100 ppg, then we should too? Do you actually enjoy this losing bull**** so you can sit here and defend Isiah? I'm just a frustrated fan who actually is tired of losing and the bull****, so why defend it?

    90 million dollar pay roll is a good thing now when we could of been off the cap a year ago? Possibly 70 million...lol, we aren't even certain if Isiah will keep let those expiring contracts expire. 120 - 90 million dollars for 20-30 win seasons? Thats poor results and very little success. Not really MUCH to deny that Isiah is a poor GM. I still don't see how you replied to this instead you went completely off topic. We would be a better cap situation without Isiah's blunders, period.


    Why are you cranking up Randolph's stats up to help a pointless argument that Randolph has playoff experience and leadership ability, especially when you were comparing him to a MVP like Kevin Garnett?

    Hows your knowledge in journalism? Would you respect a journalist's writing if he gives you invalid sources or numbers, even if its by one or two points, it still isn't valid and shows a direction towards a bias argument. How can you lie earlier and tell me you weren't bias when you clearly showed you were. Randolph averaged 13.9 and 8.7 rebounds. Not 14/10. 14/10 sounds more pretty than 13.9 and 8.7 so you dedicated to discredit me with invalid information.

    Now whenever you bring up stats, I can't take your sources seriously anymore and have to look them up and correct them self.

    BTW, 13.9 and 8.7 is nothing serious and that was in 2003, 4 years ago. Recently Randolph has been playoff less. He's been the center of a poor offense and is known as a weak defensive player. My point is still standing there.

    You and I don't know, we don't hang out with the players on the consistent basis or see whats going on behind the locker room. If you're going to believe everything you read in the papers then you're going to misinterpret everything and be easily fooled. We can think and believe, but to know something we don't and speak about is silly and will only continuing this thread to go longer.


    I got a good grasp of your point, and I hope you got a good grasp of mines. We obviously disagree. Lets just not discredit each other with invalid information and pointless arguments, because you came pretty hard in this thread

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    It flew over your head like everything else does when you think you know more than everyone!

    Do you agree that Curry would be picked in the top 50 if all teams were blank? If so, you have now gotten my point. He may not be the most skilled of all, but based on his size and ability, he would certainly be picked in the top 50. Then that would make him a top 50 player. No? You can't say x is better because they do this or that better, but they would not then be picked over him. It is the same with Oden vs Durant. Oden has more value because of...what? Since you have all the answer Jesus.. I mean Metro, feel free to use your 15 minutes you bless us all with

    Grabbing my popcorn
    Last edited by rady; Sep 19, 2007 at 01:50. Reason: never quote the previous message. it's a no-no rule ;)

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