11/17/07: New York Knicks @ Denver Nuggets (9:00 PM)

Just love to hate

I don't like hating on people but you gotta point out the obvious on Stephon. When we first got him, I loved it, bringing him home to New York. After several years and one playoff season, I think it is fair to say it is not working out. I'm not saying Steph is the worst point guard in the league, but he is far from the superstar he claims to be. The guy can't hit an open jump shot anymore and the only hard defense I've seen him play came against Sacramento for a few periods, by the way why doesn't he play like that every night???

I agree that Steph can drive to the rim. He is also good at dishing out when he drives. So I am not totally hating on him, there's a few compliments right there. Remember when we first got him, he used to hit jump shots and try to pump the crowd up to win the games at the end. That is all over now, instead he is leaving his teammates because he is selfishly not starting. I've played on sports teams, and those of you who have too, what would you think of your teammate doing that? There is a reason why this guy has been shopped around the league, he is a team cancer. He fights with coaches and wears out his welcome every time. Not to mention he has been proven to be incapable of leading a team at all, especially to the playoffs, which he has done for the Knicks just once!! The same franchise, that at one point, would expect to go to the playoffs and be a contender.

This team's demise is not all his fault. But let's not close our eyes to the obvious!! Do those of you who support this guy actually watch the Knick games? And do those of you who support this guy want this team to win? B/c I can't understand giving full praise to a guy who calls himself 'Starbury' and can't hit a jump shot, or be there for his team. Yeah, I watched how they got blown out in Phoenix, I've also watched them get blown out a ton of games in which Stephon played. Again it is not just Stephon, but he IS part of the problem.

Let Nate Robinson get a start and serious minutes. Nate still makes a bunch of mistakes, but at least he is young, I can deal with a young player going through a learning curve. Mardy Collins should come off the bench, he can't shoot as well as Nate, and to this point looks average at best skill-wise.

mike291md said:

I don't like hating on people but you gotta point out the obvious on Stephon. When we first got him, I loved it, bringing him home to New York. After several years and one playoff season, I think it is fair to say it is not working out. I'm not saying Steph is the worst point guard in the league, but he is far from the superstar he claims to be. The guy can't hit an open jump shot anymore and the only hard defense I've seen him play came against Sacramento for a few periods, by the way why doesn't he play like that every night???

I agree that Steph can drive to the rim. He is also good at dishing out when he drives. So I am not totally hating on him, there's a few compliments right there. Remember when we first got him, he used to hit jump shots and try to pump the crowd up to win the games at the end. That is all over now, instead he is leaving his teammates because he is selfishly not starting. I've played on sports teams, and those of you who have too, what would you think of your teammate doing that? There is a reason why this guy has been shopped around the league, he is a team cancer. He fights with coaches and wears out his welcome every time. Not to mention he has been proven to be incapable of leading a team at all, especially to the playoffs, which he has done for the Knicks just once!! The same franchise, that at one point, would expect to go to the playoffs and be a contender.

This team's demise is not all his fault. But let's not close our eyes to the obvious!! Do those of you who support this guy actually watch the Knick games? And do those of you who support this guy want this team to win? B/c I can't understand giving full praise to a guy who calls himself 'Starbury' and can't hit a jump shot, or be there for his team. Yeah, I watched how they got blown out in Phoenix, I've also watched them get blown out a ton of games in which Stephon played. Again it is not just Stephon, but he IS part of the problem.

Let Nate Robinson get a start and serious minutes. Nate still makes a bunch of mistakes, but at least he is young, I can deal with a young player going through a learning curve. Mardy Collins should come off the bench, he can't shoot as well as Nate, and to this point looks average at best skill-wise.

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Whats ironic is that you can track his sharp decline to literally a game or two after he claimed he was the best PG in the league. It's like he lost all confidence when he was made fun of for such a ridiculous BELIEF. (part of him still believes he is the best)

His production fell so far that when he puts up decent numbers or mediocre stretches of games many fans swear he is still the man. For instance, lets take that stretch that he had with Brown or the one last year and examine it. Yes it was indeed an improvement from the way he usually plays.(no effort on D, bad shot selection, dominating the ball for entire shot clocks and bad attitude) However he plays far from his prime and even in his prime he couldn't win consistently.

Compound everything with his wacky behavior over the summer, his desire to play in Italy and his recent AWOL and any sensible fan can come to only one conclusion:

Marbury has never won anything and NEVER will. The quicker we get rid him and Thomas I might add, the better. I know many of you like him cause he is from Brooklyn has Tattoos and represents NYC but at this point u r more Marbury fans than Knick fans if you still stick up for this chump. (no one was more happy when I heard we were getting Starbury but he just hasn't worked out. It reminds me of people who still support G W Bush after all his nonsense)

Execuses

Can Isiah say anything but execuses, it is always something but not him. The Defence, the turnovers, the injuries, and the last one was the schedule. i guess the forces of nature are all against this great leader.
who will work on the defence of the players? themselves? they need a coach to work on that, what was he doing the last years? fighting nature forces?
we are not talking about any team, we are talking about NeyYork Knicks. how come they ended like streetball team who can't compete agaisnt any NBA team??

TR1LL10N said:

Marbury has never won anything and NEVER will. The quicker we get rid him and Thomas I might add, the better. I know many of you like him cause he is from Brooklyn has Tattoos and represents NYC but at this point u r more Marbury fans than Knick fans if you still stick up for this chump. (no one was more happy when I heard we were getting Starbury but he just hasn't worked out. It reminds me of people who still support G W Bush after all his nonsense)

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Just give up on them. Obviously some people here are absolutely immune to plausible arguments. If they want to continue supporting Marbury, let them. If it makes them happy I am really glad for them. Also I have the feeling that we are past the point of arguing. By now it's mere provocation.

MSGKnickz33 said:

yea my bad i dont think hes playin

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no..no... my bad... he played.....

Anyone see the rejection by Camby against Randolph.. and thats defensive!

The only reason I said Curry might be better then Camby, is because Curry is younger with potential, and Camby will be Camby a defensive 33 year old force. Still a force and will be.

TR1LL10N said:

Whats ironic is that you can track his sharp decline to literally a game or two after he claimed he was the best PG in the league. It's like he lost all confidence when he was made fun of for such a ridiculous BELIEF. (part of him still believes he is the best)

His production fell so far that when he puts up decent numbers or mediocre stretches of games many fans swear he is still the man. For instance, lets take that stretch that he had with Brown or the one last year and examine it. Yes it was indeed an improvement from the way he usually plays.(no effort on D, bad shot selection, dominating the ball for entire shot clocks and bad attitude) However he plays far from his prime and even in his prime he couldn't win consistently.

Compound everything with his wacky behavior over the summer, his desire to play in Italy and his recent AWOL and any sensible fan can come to only one conclusion:

Marbury has never won anything and NEVER will. The quicker we get rid him and Thomas I might add, the better. I know many of you like him cause he is from Brooklyn has Tattoos and represents NYC but at this point u r more Marbury fans than Knick fans if you still stick up for this chump. (no one was more happy when I heard we were getting Starbury but he just hasn't worked out. It reminds me of people who still support G W Bush after all his nonsense)

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Well said.

nyKnicks126 said:

Anyone see the rejection by Camby against Randolph.. and thats defensive!

The only reason I said Curry might be better then Camby, is because Curry is younger with potential, and Camby will be Camby a defensive 33 year old force. Still a force and will be.

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i think curry is about as good as he will get... he's been in the nba for 1/2 dozen years... his "O" is ok... he just does not play "D"... "D" can be taught, but u gotta be willing to put in the effort... i don't think he is interested...

TR1LL10N said:

Yes it was indeed an improvement from the way he usually plays.(no effort on D, bad shot selection, dominating the ball for entire shot clocks and bad attitude) However he plays far from his prime and even in his prime he couldn't win consistently.

Compound everything with his wacky behavior over the summer, his desire to play in Italy and his recent AWOL and any sensible fan can come to only one conclusion:

Marbury has never won anything and NEVER will. The quicker we get rid him and Thomas I might add, the better. I know many of you like him cause he is from Brooklyn has Tattoos and represents NYC but at this point u r more Marbury fans than Knick fans if you still stick up for this chump. (no one was more happy when I heard we were getting Starbury but he just hasn't worked out. It reminds me of people who still support G W Bush after all his nonsense)

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:agreed: At least a few people get it.

There are very good reasons that good teams keep getting rid of very good players with great stats like Marbury and Artest. Even Charles Barkley had to say it the other night.

Both posts...the quoted and the most recent post are sounding real hypocritical to me...you want to win now...yet you want to trade marbury? You actually think we'll make playoffs with Nate or Mardy at PG. The odds aren't good folks, not good at all. Keep Marbury until his contract expires if you value this team. Nate-Rob and Mardy aren't ready to lead this team yet.

paris401 said:

i think curry is about as good as he will get... he's been in the nba for 1/2 dozen years... his "O" is ok... he just does not play "D"... "D" can be taught, but u gotta be willing to put in the effort... i don't think he is interested...

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You said it best. You would think he would learn how to play defense after 6 years but unfortunately this guy will be a cancer to this franchise just like Isiah. Zach is not athletic so he cant step up and make up for Currys lack of ability to intimidate. I think Z-Bo is still a smarter and better defender, hes just not an intimidater.

Is Curry still better then Camby? I cant believe a lot of you tried to argue this, yall must feel real dumb now. 20 REBOUNDS AND 5 BLOCKS FOR CAMBY: 12 POINTS, 2 REBOUNDS FOR CURRY

The 1 and Only said:

Both posts...the quoted and the most recent post are sounding real hypocritical to me...you want to win now...yet you want to trade marbury? You actually think we'll make playoffs with Nate or Mardy at PG. The odds aren't good folks, not good at all. Keep Marbury until his contract expires if you value this team. Nate-Rob and Mardy aren't ready to lead this team yet.

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I agree with you again, this team aint goin nowhere without marbury in the starting lineup. He might not be as good of a leader as Jason Kidd and Steve Nash, but he can still get the job done. Isiah is asking to be fired by keeping marbury out of the starting lineup. Isiahs about to make another big mistake by taking Q-rich out of the starting lineup and putting in David Lee.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archi...ther_lineup_shakeup_looming_large_for_knicks/

I dont think he would take Crawford out of the starting lineup considering the fact that he eats Crawfords ass after every game. Hes gotta be the most overrated player on the team. He has hit some big shots and hes got good chemistry with Curry but hes very inconsistent and turnover prone. I think Isiah should get fired and Curry and Crawford should be traded. Marbury needs to be reinserted into the starting lineup if Isiah wants to keep his job even though he doesnt deserve to.

There are a lot of people complaining about Marbury, and I am one of them. I agree that Mardy and Nate can not lead this team to the playoffs. Do you really think that Marbury can lead this team to the playoffs?

There are a lot of people complaining about Crawford and Curry. So who do we have that can replace them and still give us a chance to make the playoffs?

Isiah is an awful coach, Marbury is a terrible teammate and point guard, Crawford is an unreliable shooting guard, Curry is a lazy center and a major liability on the defensive end and Jim Dolan is a disgraceful owner.

This whole team needs to be blown up and replaced from the top-down.

You just said the word that no one wants to hear...rebuild. Do you hear all the crying and kleenex using posters on this site about winning? If you trade curry and crawford and then keep marbury...do you know how many L's we're going to eat in order for us to only go through another semi-rebuilding process. Do you see the cycle? No GM that has arrived has never built on the previous GM's work. Grunfield was probably the best GM for a while. Then you have Layden that left nothing to rebuild on. So you really can't turn garbage into gold. Isiah tried and has failed terribly as of yet. But I hope we can build on something soon. This entire season relies on Curry's will and determination and Q-Rich's leadership. My new lineup is....

PG Marbury
SG Q-Rich
SF Lee
PF Randolph
C Curry

We'll have to play alot of zone with this lineup but rebounds and defense shouldn't be a problem. Then we can have a spark off the bench with JC and Nate-Rob. SF could be Balkman/Chandler, PF Jeffries and C Rose/Morris. With the starters this lineup would just to start the games with. We would take Curry out first...slide Lee to PF and Randolph to C. Insert JC at the SG and move Q to the SF. Then give Marbury a breather with Nate and the rotation begins...

MSGKnickz33 said:

You said it best. You would think he would learn how to play defense after 6 years but unfortunately this guy will be a cancer to this franchise just like Isiah. Zach is not athletic so he cant step up and make up for Currys lack of ability to intimidate. I think Z-Bo is still a smarter and better defender, hes just not an intimidater.

Is Curry still better then Camby? I cant believe a lot of you tried to argue this, yall must feel real dumb now. 20 REBOUNDS AND 5 BLOCKS FOR CAMBY: 12 POINTS, 2 REBOUNDS FOR CURRY



I agree with you again, this team aint goin nowhere without marbury in the starting lineup. He might not be as good of a leader as Jason Kidd and Steve Nash, but he can still get the job done. Isiah is asking to be fired by keeping marbury out of the starting lineup. Isiahs about to make another big mistake by taking Q-rich out of the starting lineup and putting in David Lee.

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archi...ther_lineup_shakeup_looming_large_for_knicks/

I dont think he would take Crawford out of the starting lineup considering the fact that he eats Crawfords ass after every game. Hes gotta be the most overrated player on the team. He has hit some big shots and hes got good chemistry with Curry but hes very inconsistent and turnover prone. I think Isiah should get fired and Curry and Crawford should be traded. Marbury needs to be reinserted into the starting lineup if Isiah wants to keep his job even though he doesnt deserve to.

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Good stuff. He needs to bump JC for Q-Rich. Q-Rich has a more consistent jumper nad his defense is more reliable. I'm concerned for Lee though if we don't play that zone. His lateral movement isn't great but I guess he can guard average SF with it. I say let's get it! We're in need of a shakeup and I hope we can ride with this lineup

The 1 and Only said:

You just said the word that no one wants to hear...rebuild.

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There is no way this team needs to be rebuilt totally.

First, as fans, we need to accept the fact that this is barely a playoff team. Once we accept that, we can look at what we are missing, who is weighing us down, and go forward etc.... Expectations are way too high.

As far as I am concerned, these are the obvious problems.

1. Isiah as coach. He has done fairly well drafting and building a young and talented team given where he started, but he is not a great coach. The defense stinks and even the offense is kind of random and chaotic.

2. Marbury at point guard. He's a talented athlete and basketball player, but he is not a team leader, not really a PG, doesn't make his teamates better, and is a constant distraction to team chemistry.

3. Crawford - Shoots too much on days when nothing is dropping, turns the ball over too much, and plays too little defense.

4. QRich - It's too early to give up, but he doesn't look like the same player this tear.

To take this team from a marginal potential playoff team to a contender, we need to somehow "upgrade" those positions in the starting line up (and obviously at coach). We need to fill those spots with "team" oriented well rounded players that are young, hungry, may still have some development in front of them, that stay out of trouble and out of the press etc....

Now naturally, that's no easy task and may involve giving up some quality players off the bench. It may even involve the Knicks missing the playoffs this year and getting a good draft pick or two that they can develop or that can be used in a trade. But that's the reality of the situation.

We don't have any real "go to" guys for crunch time. We do have a few that don't handle the pressure well though. Other players are talented in some areas but not as all around players. Still others don't have that team oriented winning character. THose are missing ingredients. It will take awhile, but it involves admitting the problems and fixing them the right way. It doesn't involve player loyalty and overlooking the obvious problems.

Rebuilding is the only way. Look at Portland, in 2 years from now they are a championship team.
Like Metro said, keep Lee, Balkman, Collins, Chandler, and Robinson. And rebuild.

knicklover said:

There is no way this team needs to be rebuilt totally.

First, as fans, we need to accept the fact that this is barely a playoff team. Once we accept that, we can look at what we are missing, who is weighing us down, and go forward etc.... Expectations are way too high.

As far as I am concerned, these are the obvious problems.

1. Isiah as coach. He has done fairly well drafting and building a young and talented team given where he started, but he is not a great coach. The defense stinks and even the offense is kind of random and chaotic.

2. Marbury at point guard. He's a talented athlete and basketball player, but he is not a team leader, not really a PG, doesn't make his teamates better, and is a constant distraction to team chemistry.

3. Crawford - Shoots too much on days when nothing is dropping, turns the ball over too much, and plays too little defense.

4. QRich - It's too early to give up, but he doesn't look like the same player this tear.

To take this team from a marginal potential playoff team to a contender, we need to somehow "upgrade" those positions in the starting line up (and obviously at coach). We need to fill those spots with "team" oriented well rounded players that are young, hungry, may still have some development in front of them, that stay out of trouble and out of the press etc....

Now naturally, that's no easy task and may involve giving up some quality players off the bench. It may even involve the Knicks missing the playoffs this year and getting a good draft pick or two that they can develop or that can be used in a trade. But that's the reality of the situation.

We don't have any real "go to" guys for crunch time. We do have a few that don't handle the pressure well though. Other players are talented in some areas but not as all around players. Still others don't have that team oriented winning character. THose are missing ingredients. It will take awhile, but it involves admitting the problems and fixing them the right way. It doesn't involve player loyalty and overlooking the obvious problems.

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That is what I'm saying...that was the total plot to my last post. Every time a GM came in he usually cleaned house and still did a terrible job at rebuilding a roster. Isiah has some good pieces on this roster. The only players that you trade off this roster is Malik Rose, Jerome James (impossible to move), Jamal Crawford (talented player that needs to be included in any trade to push the trade through), possibly Q-Rich if we can find a better perimeter shooter with decent defense. All in all...this is a good team with a couple of bad pieces, we just need to build on the good and get rid of or bench the bad so we can get some Ws in the near future.

nyKnicks126 said:

Rebuilding is the only way. Look at Portland, in 2 years from now they are a championship team.
Like Metro said, keep Lee, Balkman, Collins, Chandler, and Robinson. And rebuild.

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I also wouldn't mind seeing this plan being executed

nyKnicks126 said:

Rebuilding is the only way. Look at Portland, in 2 years from now they are a championship team.
Like Metro said, keep Lee, Balkman, Collins, Chandler, and Robinson. And rebuild.

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I would say keep Randolph too since he is still young. The guy is a stat machine. He is the perfect 2nd option and rebound hog. Get an allstar go to combo guard and a defensive playmaking minded PG and we will be straight.

This team is doomed

The clown prince of sg's crawford, he fools everyone into believing he's good. HE can drive and shoot foul shots, but he's erratic from everywhere else, including his running floater type shot, He's turnover prone, leads team by 13 to with 32 total, and curry randolph tied with 19each. Marbury in mix with 17. I know i posted this in another thread, but still he's terrible, going no where with him. He has doubled every other knick in shot attempts except for Marbury zach and curry. He had a good 4th qtr but blew in the overtime and double OT. missing game winning shot in the 1st ot, not to mention every shot he took in second overtime, 4! Who pumps this guys head up to let him shoot so much and handle the ball constantly? Hmmm isiah, sucks also. Isiah lets him run wild, much like steph.
I don't know how many times i can say this before everyone realizes, crawford=garbage. He scores only because despite the fact he turns the ball over and misses the coach leaves him out there, just to teach steph a lession. Any other coach would be benching crawford as well. This team will not win with crawford the focal point of the offense, he's taken just shy of 30 more shots than curry, who leads knicks in FG% and scores more than jamaal, and has 13 less turnovers.

This team is doomed as long as it continues to feature crawford as #1 offensive weapon, and also as it's #1 guard.