After watching the Magic and Celtics play last night. The Knicks suck. Great individual players but we do not have the personel to get the job done.
That game was a defense and offense execution showing. Big shots, big defensive stops. KG, D-Howard, Allen. Nelson. Pierce, HedoTurgaglu (sorry). The Knicks look nothing like that.
I have been a long supporter of this team, but its hard to a defend a team that doesn't have the tools. I think they are trying, its just they don't have the capacity, mentally to do so. D-Howard is a beast. They way he blocks shot, the way he rebounds. He commands the paint. Nelson is a solid facilatator. He does his part, plays D. He's great. Hedo can hit shots. The C's big 3 needs no intro.
The Knicks have players but the supposedly "stars" are terrible. Steph, he quits on his own team, 'nuff said. Curry still like him but honestly he is not fitting in. He need a defensive big man next to him. Zach he produce better can Curry so he stays. Crawford I like. He honestly tries and with the right people with him he can be so much better. Q looks washed up.
It's still early but if this goes on. Just give the reigns to the young guys. I hate when coaches keeps playing the main player in a lost season when the clearly are not getting iit done.
If we're gonna lose, play the young guys. Nate, Lee, Mardy, Morris, Chandler, Balkman. Still play Crawford and Zach.
If this season is gonna suck. Let me see the young guys develop. I honestly won't be so mad.
IF YOUR GOING TO ANY GAMES. BROWN BAG IT!!!!! (wear it on your heads)
This team has great talent, but little to no chemistry. Perhaps they can gell by mid season. Crawford has reverted to his crazy irratic shooting after 3 great games. Stephs on another planet. Curry and randolph have been offensively productive but not much else. The team defense is just horrible. They play good D occasionaly, they just need to learn to put that effort in 100% of a game. Not just when you are already down with 2 minutes to go in 4th. No escuses it has been a sad pathetic display so far. If the ship isn't righted by mid season, I think Isiah has to go. I already think he should go, but this is a fair chance for him to turn it around. Crawford still has the ball to much, and isn't as good as people give him credit for. Sure he scores but he shoots 20 times. He's a terrible 3point shooter and his running floater is unpredictable. I like that he gets to the lineand actually hits free throws. But he has to shoot higher pct from everywhere.
Nelson is the most overrated PG in the NBA today.
Nelson isn't a MLB pitcher. Most of Orlando wins are contributed to the 3 following factors.
Dwight Howard's dominance in the paint
SVG's coaching his team to play consistent defense
The addition of Rashard Lewis
Bogans and Hedo emerging as starters.
Nelson isn't even top 3. I'm sick of medicore PG's like Fisher Rando and Nelson getting praise cause they're on good teams. Nelson isn't that good and has limited abilities.
Marbury > Nelson, gracias.
You have to be realistic. Dwight Howard is dominant, yes. Part of that is directly tied to the fact his starting PG (Nelson) distributes the ball to him acurately. This is evidenced by the fact that Howard scores in the low post, but does not drive to the basket, but is met there by quality passes. For being the main ballhandler on a young team Nelson is doing a good job.
As well the constant Knocking of Derek Fisher is silly. He was starting PG for the Lakers for there 3 peat. He didn't just walk into the picture, he earned it. Utah went farther in the playoffs last year and that was directly in part to his mentoring of Deron Williams. The Lakers have more stability this year. Why? Derek Fisher is like a player coach. He helps the coach, by taking young guys under his wing and teaching them how to be NBA professionals, which to any organization is invalueable.
What people need to do is start/keep blaming the players. They need to put their personal agendas aside, and realize the small self promoting things that they do (Leaving town, over dribbling, lack of ball movement), hurt chemistry and delay progress. The two wins the Knicks have achieved this year are directly corelated to ball movement, when that stagnates, so does are offense. Defensive intensity sags wat too often because the biggest problem I believe is guaranteed contracts. If the NBA was like the NFL, there would be better efforts on a nightly basis.
Last edited by dr.carpy; Nov 20, 2007 at 08:22.
True, but Nelson listens to his coach. A average player who manges an offense and listens to his coach is better than a star player who does what he wants.
No, Nelson isn't a pass first PG. He's known for chucking up three's and shots all over the place and missing an open Dwight Howard. The best passer on Orlando is Hedo Turk, who's the best on the team at dumping the ball to Dwight. You can't even spell accurately so I'll doubt you on knowing the definition of it. Dwight would average more points with a PG like Calderon rather than Nelson, because Nelson doesn't create consistently. You guys would murder Nelson for chucking up 3's randomly and forgetting to pass to the big.
Nelson is far from the main ball handler, where as the wing players (Bogans, Hedo, Lewis) are always dumping it to Howard(majority of the time). Nelson is one of the worst defensive PG's in the NBA, and Boykins has more passing ability than Nelson. Nelson is an average scorer, and a C- level passer. His defense is at the F level. He's at 27...prime years are 28-31. Don't even compare Nelson and Marbury at their prime.
Playing with elite players like Lewis and Howard or Kobe and Shaq doesn't make you an elite PG. You can easily put Marbury into that position and he'll increase the level of play 3-5 times the level Nelson can at his best. You've contradicted everything you said. Nelson has limited passing abilities and over dribbles constantly. Unlike you I watch Orlando play on a daily basis because two of my favorite NBA players on are on the team, Ariza and Arroyo. Trust me, Nelson is the most replaceable starter they have, and isn't even better than Hedo, Lewis, and Howard. Hell, Bogans 3pt shooting and defense has brought more value to Orlando than Nelson's whole game.
Blumatic, do you realize Isiah is a mad man with no sense of direction? Marbury has had over 10 coaches in his NBA career. Not the best situation for him.
I really understand that you guys only seen Orlando play one game, but you need to understand the view of a man who had a 10 game assessment on the Magic. Nelson doesn't manage the offense, all he is a role player a very limited one. Being a limited role player on a good team does not make you better than an a top 10-15 PG. Never, and ever will, at any position and at any sport.
Marbury > Nelson.
We got all these people forming their opinions off of the one game where the Magic played the Knicks. Jameer Nelson offensively is inconsistant. One night he'll have 20 points and the next night he'll have only 8. I got the league pass and when the Knicks aren't on, the Magic is one of the teams that I watch. Its like when Curry out played Camby once, all of the sudden Curry is better then last years defensive player of the year. But what happened the 2nd time? You cant make opinions off of what you saw one time. Theres a lot of Magic games where Arroyo and nelson split the point guard job. It was supposed to be Nelsons job and Arroyo was supposed to back him up, but it turned out that Arroyo is just as good...maybe better then Jameer Nelson.
You mention that he's not main ball handler, I think your wrong, but I do think the guards and rest of the team do handle ball more evenly, I think it's call ball movement and sharing. A thing marbury/crawford tandem tends to forget. When running an offense you like to swing the ball around. Yes on a TEAM you shouldn't be a ball hog dominating the ball when you have good guards and big men. SO the fact that he gets other guys involved by letting them handle the rock a good amount of time, is a good thing. You tend to hussle more if you believe you'll get your hands on the ball. Nelson doesn't concern himself with who gets the assist, he just swings it around to whoever. Marbury is a ball dominating PG, something that doesn't fit with a team with a lot of talent, granted crawford is no better and the other options aren't much better. Steph is no longer the old steph and now he's causeing more problems then ever.
Steph also has had garnet with him and they never made it out of the first round, Marion in Phoenix, results the same. Marbury doesn't make guys better. Now he's older and has ankle problems, he slower than he was. Marbury in his prime, would whoop all over this marbury we have now. And Nelson is out playing marbury right now, thats a fact. P.S. Crawford is just as much part of this controlling the ball problem. Isiah, lets them dominate the ball, but it doesn't work. Jamaal never will be and marbury isn't anymore.
Getting what done? It just isn't him pendejo. Orlando is a team led by the best center in the NBA, Dwight Howard, and one of the best shooters in Rashard Lewis, plus a group of guys who can defend and shoot. Nelson isn't a threat as a shooter, and is a liability on defense, nor he isn't a playmaker. Stop overrating him and using his team's success to pump up his individual ability.
He plays 30 minutes a game instead of 35-38 because he has flaws and has had really off nights.
A very average PG Nelson is. Marbury is a good PG in a bad situation. Marbury has been an all star PG for most of his career, where as Nelson is fighting for starter minutes. What has Nelson done that can compare to Marbury? Nothing. 10 games mean nothing compared to years in the NBA. Right now Marbury is in turmoil with the coach, where as Nelson is given a limited role 50 other PG's in the NBA can easily fit in.
He has terrible defense; leading the team in steals doesn't excuse his terrible defense. How many times I myself and others in forum killed that steals agrument? We had some idiot on here who thought Lebron wasn't a good defender or on Wade's level because Wade had more steals and blks. Nelson is the worst I've seen fighting over screens and pick and rolls...dude is just ass, and actually makes Robinson look like a good defender(from my assessment of watching constant Knicks and Magic games.)
Head case is just an insult, you don't have a lot behind that statement, actually nothing except personal hate and ignorance.
Its been 10 games; if you're comparing 10 games to my assessment of over 10 tens, then you gotta be a knuclehead(Charles Barkley quote).
He's solid, average, everything but good.
You think, but you don't know. I've watched Orlando all ten games. The ball is mostly in Dwight's hands in the half court, Turk creates passes and shots. Jameer's role is limited, as is Arroyo's and Dooling's.
Marbury is NOT Crawford, Crawford is a selfish player with no sense of shot selection. Marbury is the opposite.
Have you watch Orlando play 3-4 + games this season? How do you know what Jameer is doing without watching game reviews, the game itself or keeping up?
"Nelson doesn't concern himself with who gets the assist, he just swings it around to whoever."
You're right about that.
"Marbury is a ball dominating PG"
You're extremeley 100% wrong about this, just like the majority of the post your replied with.
If Marbury is a ball dominator, how the hell does Curry and Crawford and Randolph get so much ball possession, turnovers, shot attempts and etc?
Steph had Garnett for a limited number of games. I don't know who the hell is "Garnet" Why does everyone tremble and get weak and start mis-spelling athletes name when they reply to me? I remember dun**** and shack last time.
What PG does make guys better, in what way? Do you mean in terms of improving themselves as better athletes or on the court? On the court, Marbury is very unselfish, penetrates and creates for his team when given the chance. He doesn't create like Nash or Kidd, but Marbury does create and help his teammates.
Come back to this thread in 30-40 games and lets see who's the better PG.
The guy is in turmoil with his coach? hmmm, do you think any of that turmoil is his fault, I'll give you not 100%, I'd say about 50% Isiah and 50% Marbury. When you seem to but heads with every coach he has, some of the blame falls on him. He also has had issues with several teamates, like Garnet, Van horn, Quentin Richardson, even Malik Rose wants out. The Guy was great. An all star. But he dominated the ball causing friction with his teamates and coaches in most situations he's been in. He used to be able to carry a team to playoffs, but his ball dominating style would get shut down against the good TEAMS in the playoffs and now that his coach wants him to be more TEAM orientated, so he can get out of first round, he can't adjust and he's not good enough to carry a team anymore, So marbury doesn't fit.
Nelson has been a good pg. I have seen several orlando games, granted not all of them. But Nelson, plays a role, his role is important and contributes to his team, several ways. I'm not saying other point guards couldn't play in his spot, just marbury can't. It's not marburys style to take the back seat. It's marburys style to make a big fuss, if he doesn't play. Put down teamates if they miss open shots. Put down coaches for letting anyone else but him take a last shot or handle the ball. Marbury needs to be the man and his ego is hurt, that isiah puts crawford in that spot. I'd rather have steph shoot than crawford anyday. Marbury just doesn't get the TEAM concept and he has given up on defense and has lost a step, plus he's not as dealy a finisher/passer/shooter as he used to be, He's on the decline, past his prime and isn't adjusting or trying to fit into any role.
Hate and ignorance? I have neither, I have pitty for Marbury, one of my favorite players, I was so excited he came to NY, I loved him, because he wanted to be here more than anything. He wanted to carry the KNicks to the promise land, something I'm sure he's dreamed of since he was a kid. I pitty him now because, he is a shell of the Starbury he thinks he is. He needs a coach to be on his Jock and blowing smoke up his ass. He needs the coach to stroke his ego, he can't carry this team. His team. SO I feel sorry for him. He can't perform the way he has always wanted as a knick. But I don't free him from blame just because he has the desire to win adnplay well as a knick, he needs to learn the TEAM game. Needs to put ego's aside and trust his teamates. He needs to put 100% effort into defence. When Isiah finally realizes Crawford isn't the man, then marbury can have his ball back. But at least be a man. You'll never develope curry, or any real team chemistry with selfish behavior. Nelson just plays. Does whats asked of him, sure he can mature and doesn't always take good shots, the same can be said of anyone who isn't an allstar, and steph is no longer and all-star. Maybe it's not all his fault. But he should carry his share of the blame.