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Thread: Blow it the F*CK up! Official Trade Thread

  1. #76
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    Marbury does a pretty fine job passing the ball. The problem are his assets. Not even Nash could help Q-Rich, Crawford always been sorry and its hard to play with Curry since he doesn't play team ball.

    We can win with Marbury at PG, just not with Crawford at SG and Curry at the C. Wizards play Stevenson at the 2 and Haywood at center for a reason. For defense mainly and they compliment Arenas(a scoring PG) very well.

    We don't have an Eric Snow of 2000 or Antonio Daniels, so it'll be hard to play Marbury out of position. We've seen Marbury at SG and it didn't work out.

    Marbury is our best passer, ball handler, and sees the court better than anyone on the team, having him at PG is a necessity if want an efficient offense


    I always liked Marbury @ PG and Robinson at SG, with Balkman and Lee to compliment them and have Randolph at center. I know its a small line up but Robinson, Balkman and Lee play big.



    Right now I don't even know why I'm discussing this, I feel Marbury is done with this franchise; too much **** has happend and I don't see things turning around. I feel Marbury isn't the problem but he isn't the solution; so he'll get a lot of heat for that.

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    and why does Marbury get the heat, I thought this was Currys team? Its because of his contract but people should not use this because of how much he gives back. I thought Zach Randolph was also the answer to our problems, according to I-Gay-ah.

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    Very interesting arguements and a lot of decent points made. I'd like to jump in and say flat out Marbury is a hell of lot better than crawford and is the Knicks most talented player. From what i saw in the last couple of seasons has been Marbury's decline resulting from all the trades made by isiah.

    When Marbury came to the Knicks in whatever season it was he took a veteran team lacking talent and athleticism to a respectiable record and a playoff birth. Marbury was putting up 20 points and 8 dimes consistently. Maybe he isn't the most vocal leader but HE LEAD that team with his solid play. Had Isiah just been less trigger happy building a team around Marbury similar to the way the Sixers built around the A.I. with good defenders and rebounders such as Tyrone Hill, Theo Ratliff, Eric Snow Aaron Mckie etc. (They had a great record and went on to play in the Finals)the Knicks could of done the same thing.

    Instead Thomas destroyed this team by trading for big contract players like Crawford, Curry, Francis, Randolph essentially "subtracting through addition" the way Peter Vescey would put it. With every aquisition Marbury role as the focus of the offense diminished and this team has just gotten worse and worse because of it. Couple that with a joke of an organization you can't blame marbury for this team's futility. But i can understand why its so easy to. He can be ****y and moronic at times. When he proclaimed himself the best point guard in the league, its easy to hate on him.

    But guess what Dolan and Thomas are two lost mother****ers trying to save face and you PLEASE BELIEVE ME they are pullin the same scapegoat bull**** they did with Larry Brown this time around with marbury.

    You want to see THIS TEAM win some games

    1. Pray that Marbury gets over the personal stuff hes been dealing with and gets back on the floor.

    2. Have crawford be your 6th man. He flourished in this role when he was under Larry Brown. He came in more focused and under control and gave the Knicks points when they needed them down the stretch in close games.

    3. Run your offense through Marbury. He can still breakdown defenses and find people although he can't finish as effectively thats why you gotta have capable bigs that can crash the boards and block shots not this fat ass Curry.

    4. Find him a spot up shooter both K. Thomas ands Frye were exceptional in this role. I think Randolph could be a great spot up shooter as well as post threat when Marbury is off the court.

    The Knicks for now before we make any trades should be coming out like this:

    PG Marbury/Nate
    SG Q-Rich/Crawford
    SF Jeffries/Balkman
    PF Randolph/Lee
    C Morris/Curry

    Obviously This lineup has a lot of defficienies. Most notably we need to lose Curry and pick up a defensive center. And we need to pick up a perimeter shooter either at the 2 or 3 spot as Q-rich and Jeffries can't shoot. The first guy to come to mind is Artest.

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    Very good post but Q-rich is no longer a starter, its questionable whether he should even be playin at all kind of like Holyfield the past 10 years.

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    Marbury is NOT a player that you can use to run your team period! He, like every other player on this team, is a very selfish player who lacks vision (2 very bad components for a point guard). I believe Curry is being affected by Randolph so his numbers dropped. The reality with Curry is that he is an offensive player and NOT a a big man who is going to bang down low. Isiah did a poor job getting a complimentary player to flank him. I would see if Chicago would be interested in taking him back! He seems to be the exact player they are looking for to partner with Wallace; see if we could get back Noccioni for him. Then I would try to get a salvageable big man for the middle. I like Dan Gadzuric from the bucks or Jeff Foster from Indiana; see what the 76s would want for Dalembert. With Randolph now being the focal big man down low, you just need a blue collar type guy to grab a rebound and cover their man. I wasn't a 100% sold on Artest coming here but at this point, he might be a welcomed addition to the team. As long as he could stay focused he could be what they are looking for. He is intense when he plays and that is something that this squad seems to lack.

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    i don't think artest can play with this group... the homicide rate in ny would soar probably after only one game... he def gets rid of curry,zach,jefferies,crawford (unless he was having a good shooting nite) ... thank god our other big man would be saved ... jerome would be having his way...

  7. #82
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    Nyk Logo No one could run this team

    You could trade jerome james for steve nash and this team would still suck. Nash is one player and the other players have bought into Isiahs preaching that they are good players and believe they can do no wrong and it's is not their individual fault they are losing, it's the other guy. Not even delusional curry saying "i guess I'm not a starter on this team?" He should be saying I haven't performed well, I need to get back to playing well work hard and prove i belong in starting line-up. Do you think benching marbury has had any effect, no he still thinks he has nothing to do with the losing, same goes for randolph. These guys don't say, we lose because i had to many turnovers, or I forgot to box out, I didn't play Defense. It's each player saying I'm good, the other guys suck. This team will never win.

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    Every single player on this team is one dimensional. The only possible exceptions are Morris and Chandler. I only give them some credit because we don't know their games well enough yet.

    Marbury has the talent to be a good all around player, but he's mentally not fit to be a PG or a team leader. He's a constant "team chemistry" distraction on and off the court and his game goes down 1 or 2 notches at crunch time (which is a disaster).

    Curry can't rebound, block shots or play defense.

    Randolph can't block shots, is slow on defense, takes too many bad shots and isn't tream oriented enough.

    Crawford can't shoot well enough to be a SG, is way too inconsistent, and can't play defense.

    QRich can't shoot at all - which is pathetic for a SF on a team that needs outside shooting from that position.

    Lee is the closest thing we have to a good player, but he needs a mid range jumper. As it is now, the defense knows it can lay off him, focus on the post, and swat his shots away when he gets the ball in close.

    Balkman shoots even worse than Q Rich.

    Robinson is too small to play defense on many opponents and can't shoot well enough from outside even though he's more than willing to shoot no matter what his night is going like (TOO WILLING).

    Jared Jeffries can't shoot at all.

    Mardy Collins can't shoot at all.

    Fred Jones is shooting OK this year, but he's also a low % shooter and only a moderate talent.

    Malik Rose is a moderate talent in all areas.

    James is a fat slop.

    When I look at this roster, I can't escape the fact that Isiah is NOT EVEN A GOOD JUDGE OF TALENT. He hasn't really found any jewels with our draft picks, let alone with trades. He picked up a bunch of one dimensonal players that other teams were actually wise to pass on or trade to us.

    Some of these guys are very talented at what they do well (whether it be defense, rebound, scoring inside, athleticism, high energy etc...). You might even be able to win a championship with one or two of them getting a lot of minutes. But you would need some real stars along side of them to overcome their glaring weaknesses.

    The more I see this team, the more I think it's the worst team in the NBA (or certainly close). It's not a matter of chemistry, injuries (last year's excuse), or turmoil because of all the off the court problems. The few young players we have that showed some promise in last year are no better this year and are therefore still wildly flawed! Our players suck - plain and simple! That's why we keep losing!
    Last edited by knicklover; Jan 03, 2008 at 09:32.

  9. #84
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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    Marbury is NOT a player that you can use to run your team period! He, like every other player on this team, is a very selfish player who lacks vision (2 very bad components for a point guard). I believe Curry is being affected by Randolph so his numbers dropped. The reality with Curry is that he is an offensive player and NOT a a big man who is going to bang down low. Isiah did a poor job getting a complimentary player to flank him. I would see if Chicago would be interested in taking him back! He seems to be the exact player they are looking for to partner with Wallace; see if we could get back Noccioni for him. Then I would try to get a salvageable big man for the middle. I like Dan Gadzuric from the bucks or Jeff Foster from Indiana; see what the 76s would want for Dalembert. With Randolph now being the focal big man down low, you just need a blue collar type guy to grab a rebound and cover their man. I wasn't a 100% sold on Artest coming here but at this point, he might be a welcomed addition to the team. As long as he could stay focused he could be what they are looking for. He is intense when he plays and that is something that this squad seems to lack.
    How has been Marbury been "selfish" when he gave up his scoring for Crawford's and Curry's shot attempts?

    How does Marbury average 8 assist for his whole career with no court version?


    Mystery questions that will never be answered.

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    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by metrocard
    How has been Marbury been "selfish" when he gave up his scoring for Crawford's and Curry's shot attempts?

    How does Marbury average 8 assist for his whole career with no court version?


    Mystery questions that will never be answered.
    The great mystery with Marbury is that very stat! He averages 8 assists for his career but yet every squad he has QB'd becomes a very stagnant offense. While Marbury does manage to get assist numbers he doesn't seem to lift his team or create and maintain a fluidity that other elite pg's seem to do (like Kidd, Nash). It is a mystery because he is very talented but after watching Marbury since his college years it has become very clear that he is a 1 dimensional player and that does not make for a very useful pg! Yes, he has taken a backseat to Crawford in the scoring part, but look at his game now! Kidd or Nash could go a whole game with out scoring a point but add so much value in with their court vision and passing skills while Marbury just stops scoring but doesn't do anything else to add value. Yes, he will toss the ball to Crawford and get the assist, but does he move the game along and dictate the pace? From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In basketball, an assist is attributed to a player who passes the ball to a teammate in a way that leads to a score by field goal, meaning that he or she was "assisting" in the basket. This person is known as the "assistor." According to the Official 2004 NCAA Basketball Statistics Rules, an assist has to be "a major part of the play," which either finds the player already with a "positional advantage," or helps him or her get one. There is thus some judgment involved in deciding whether a passer should be credited with an assist. An assist can be scored for the passer even if the player who receives the pass makes a basket after dribbling the ball. However, the original definition of an assist did not include such situations,[1] so the comparison of assist statistics across eras is a complex matter. Only the pass directly before the score may be counted as an assist, so no more than one assist can be recorded per field goal (unlike other sports, such as ice hockey.) A pass that leads to a shooting foul and scoring by free throws does not count as an assist. A player can get him or herself into position to receive an assist in a variety of ways. The main way is to come off a screen, which, if executed properly, will leave the player open for a pass, and in a position to easily score. Other times the defense will double team an offensive player, leaving someone else open. (It is the passer, not the player receiving the pass, who "receives" the credit for making an assist.) Averaging a large number of assists doesn't always mean that the player is good at passing. If a player was to handle the ball most of the time, he/she would eventually pass it. If his teammate scores, then he/she gets an assist. I included this to prove a point that just because a player gets an assist on a play doesn't mean that the "assitor" did the work to create the basket. Kidd and Nash by virtue of their abilities can create a scenario that makes it easier for the scorer to make the basket while Marbury, mostly just passes the ball to an a teammate that scores. Not all assists are the same! Yes numbers are numbers and Marbury does tote them but I and most people who are familiar with Marbury, feel his numbers are empty! His track record has proven that. For his entire career he has not been on a wining team. He has been surrounded by plenty of talent but has done nothing with it!

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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    . If a player was to handle the ball most of the time, he/she would eventually pass it. !
    unless he is named zach 'the black hole'... no way he is passing the ball

  12. #87
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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    The great mystery with Marbury is that very stat! He averages 8 assists for his career but yet every squad he has QB'd becomes a very stagnant offense. While Marbury does manage to get assist numbers he doesn't seem to lift his team or create and maintain a fluidity that other elite pg's seem to do (like Kidd, Nash). It is a mystery because he is very talented but after watching Marbury since his college years it has become very clear that he is a 1 dimensional player and that does not make for a very useful pg! Yes, he has taken a backseat to Crawford in the scoring part, but look at his game now! Kidd or Nash could go a whole game with out scoring a point but add so much value in with their court vision and passing skills while Marbury just stops scoring but doesn't do anything else to add value. Yes, he will toss the ball to Crawford and get the assist, but does he move the game along and dictate the pace? From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In basketball, an assist is attributed to a player who passes the ball to a teammate in a way that leads to a score by field goal, meaning that he or she was "assisting" in the basket. This person is known as the "assistor." According to the Official 2004 NCAA Basketball Statistics Rules, an assist has to be "a major part of the play," which either finds the player already with a "positional advantage," or helps him or her get one. There is thus some judgment involved in deciding whether a passer should be credited with an assist. An assist can be scored for the passer even if the player who receives the pass makes a basket after dribbling the ball. However, the original definition of an assist did not include such situations,[1] so the comparison of assist statistics across eras is a complex matter. Only the pass directly before the score may be counted as an assist, so no more than one assist can be recorded per field goal (unlike other sports, such as ice hockey.) A pass that leads to a shooting foul and scoring by free throws does not count as an assist. A player can get him or herself into position to receive an assist in a variety of ways. The main way is to come off a screen, which, if executed properly, will leave the player open for a pass, and in a position to easily score. Other times the defense will double team an offensive player, leaving someone else open. (It is the passer, not the player receiving the pass, who "receives" the credit for making an assist.) Averaging a large number of assists doesn't always mean that the player is good at passing. If a player was to handle the ball most of the time, he/she would eventually pass it. If his teammate scores, then he/she gets an assist. I included this to prove a point that just because a player gets an assist on a play doesn't mean that the "assitor" did the work to create the basket. Kidd and Nash by virtue of their abilities can create a scenario that makes it easier for the scorer to make the basket while Marbury, mostly just passes the ball to an a teammate that scores. Not all assists are the same! Yes numbers are numbers and Marbury does tote them but I and most people who are familiar with Marbury, feel his numbers are empty! His track record has proven that. For his entire career he has not been on a wining team. He has been surrounded by plenty of talent but has done nothing with it!

    Damn you dropped mad knowledge, let me at least breathe homie...I knew I had to come prepared to debate against you.

    Marbury's first real season with the Nets, they averaged 98 ppg(especially at that time defense was played more frequent), thats not bad at all considering the only real scoring threats Nets had were Marbury and Keith Van Horn.

    Going into 2000, things kinda blew up when Nets management(kinda like the Knicks) didn't build around Marbury properly, players couldn't stay healthy and they began to stink.

    Marbury's first season in Phoneix(01-02 season), they ranked 17th in the NBA in PPG...thats pretty "average" to me, more than stagnant.

    Then in 02-03, Phoneix was improved to 13th in the NBA in PPG led by Marbury.

    In 03'-04, Phoneix improved to 94 ppg with Marbury, almost top 10 in the NBA

    When Marbury was traded to the Knicks...we looked awesome, we finally had a player maker and a creator who can penetrate.

    Marbury did run the offense and the team averaged 97 ppg in 04-05 I believe...thats not bad right?

    The point is, Marbury is very capable of running a good offense. Not a Steve Nash offense, but a good one.

    Nets offense look like ****, , should Kidd get the blame or should Nets management get the blame for not giving him the right pieces and the right coach?

    Marbury doesn't have the coach or the players to be effective.

    The reason why our offense is so stagnant is because of Eddy Curry takes a lot of time to get in position and is a predictable player like how Eli is a predictable QB and always get picked. This leads to alot of turnovers, more possessions for the other team. Chicago was a terrible team when they ran their offense through Eddy Curry, they were so bad, they were like **** IT...lets just be a jump shooting team, we'll at least WIN games...**** a post game.

    Still, 8 assist a game is extremely impressive. Marbury averaged 9 assist when he first came here. I don't see how you can say he has no "vision", atleast agree he has an adequate amount of vision, but I'll agree with you that he doesn't have Kidd or Nash vision.

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    I think homeaterguy hit the nail on the head.

    If you play PG and pass to "anyone" on the team and they score, you get an assist. However, that doesn't tell you anything about whether it was the PG that actually 'created the play".

    Positive contributions from the PG are things like this:

    1. Drawing a double team when he drives and finding the open man for a wide open look.

    2. Running a fast break, putting on a great fake to one wing, and finding the other for a layup instead of contested shot.

    3. Making a spectacular pass to find a man that's open for a split second.

    4. Knowing his team mates strengths, weaknesses, preferences etc....

    Marbury is not terrible and would get even more assists if he had better shooters around him, but he doesn't "ADD" a lot of value at that position.

    He drives and gets fouled instead of making the great pass. He dribbles outside too much etc...

    On a related note, the problem with the team being stagnant is not totally Curry's fault. I keep saying that. It's obvious. But no one is paying attention. When a team's outside shooters can't hit the ocean, it's pretty easy to defend guys that score from the inside like Curry. It's also easier to CAUSE turnovers when you can double and triple team him every time he gets the ball because there are no outside threats.

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    Knicks Guru hometheaterguy's Avatar
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    Metro, it is always fun to banter with you and we usually are on the same page (I say 98% of the time) and that is great in a forum that is driven purely by opinion. I was happy when Marbury came to the Knicks because I felt it was a tremendous upgrade in the back court from what we had. You know Marbury is know as a coach killer in the NBA and that is a fact! Case in point: When he came to NY he really started to groove with KVH. For some reason, KVH and Marbury are almost tailor made for each other. They gelled in NJ and they gelled in NY. Like his attitude in NJ and Minnesota he wasn't happy having equal to slightly lesser exposure and shots. He wanted out of Minnesota because he didn't want to be second to Garnett and he had KVH ousted from both NJ and NY. He complained out Brown as a coach because Brown didn't want him to be the # 1 or 2 offensive option. Now he doesn't get along with the 1 guy that fought for him, Isiah and wants out of NY. This is Marbury's MO and it is tiresome at this point. Is he talented? Yes, more than many NBA players. He has tremendous talent, unfortunately he is a 6' 2" shooting guard who only cares about himself when he walks onto the court. Jordan was a selfish player but he also lifted his team. Marbury wants what he wants and if he doesn't get it then he lobbies to have your fired or to be traded. So I would rather have a pg that averages 4 assists a game if he plays D, spreads the ball around and can come up with some key assists anytime.

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    Marbury cant pass as good as Kidd and Nash but who can? Hes still one of the better passers in the league and he has alot more scoring ability then both of them, even Nash admitted he cant take Marbury 1 on 1.

    The 04-05 season is the only year where Marbury proved himself. If Isiah had made smarter trades and less trades we would not be having this discussion right now. I have no proof of this but I strongly believe if Marbury had stayed one more year with Garnett or one more year with Pheonix, things would have been different. Theres no question in my mind he would have finally made it past the 1st round in the playoffs.

    I cant deny that he was surrounded with talent when in Pheonix and now in New York. Im going to start off with Minnesota, he had KG with him. One more year with Garnett and its hard to argue that they would not have been a 2nd round team.

    To say he was surrounded with alot of talent in New Jersey is false. Kenyon Martin was a rookie when Marbury played there and they didnt draft Richard Jefferson until the following year when Marbury was traded. Keith Van Horn was the 2nd best player on this Nets team. After that Kerry Kittles and Kendall Gill were the 3rd and 4th best players. Its impressive that Marbury averaged 8 assists per game playing with these guys.

    Next stop was in Pheonix. Amare Stoudamire was a rookie when Marbury played there. Steve Nash has done a great job with Phoenix, Ill give him alot of credit. I dont think Marbury couldve done as good of a job but I think the Phoenix Suns would have still been one of the powerhouses out west with Marbury.

    I dont think Marbury ever looked bad until Larry Brown coached him. If he had stayed with some of his old teams for a longer period of time he would have had more success. The only knock that I accept on Marbury is that hes not vocal and he doesnt try to fire his team up. Marbury may not be the definition of a point guard but he is a point guard and one of the better ones. No disrespect home theater guy but when you said Marbury is a one dimensional point guard that doesnt make sense to me. Marbury scores, passes, and defends. Thats 3 dimensions and stats prove this. I know you have your theory about assist and I agree, Kidd and Nash are better passers then Marbury. Marbury is still a good enough passer to lead a team deep in the playoffs with the right group of players around him and those 04-05 knicks were not far away from being a much better team.

    Im not sure why Marbury is even being criticized here. There are several other players on this team that define one dimensional. I think that Marbury is a target because of his contract.

    EArly in Marburys career his only problem was that he kept gettin traded. Bythe way, that whole "every team he played on got better after he left" bull**** pisses me off. Did Minnesota get better? I already talked about the Nets and Suns.

    Idiots like Isiah and Larry Brown have made Marbury look bad. When you want to point the finger at sum1, it should be pointed at Isiah for making this "currys team." Or at Larry Brown for making Marbury a shooting guard, he aint no 2-guard hes a F*ckin point guard and one of the 10 best. Marburys got all the skill, but hes got bad luck.

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