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Thread: Blow it the F*CK up! Official Trade Thread

  1. #106
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    Msg,

    Take a look at the efficiency stats for just guards at NBA.com. They have the stats for the last 4 years available. Last time I looked Marbury was ranked around 50th. I am willing to excuse this year a bit because of his personal problems, but if you look at the trend he has been falling rapidly over the last few years. Granted, stats like these are not perfect, but sometimes they are better than personal opinions when people don't agree because at least there's no emotion involved.

  2. #107
    The Gold Mac MSGKnickz33's Avatar
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    The 05-06 season was when Larry Brown coached. Not one players on this team stats should be counted from that year. Remember all the different starting lineups from that year? And plus, the only year Im talkin about is last year as in the 06-07 season. You gave him a pass for this year and thats a respectable thing to do. He hasnt had the consistant playing time to get himself going but Im hopin with each game back his conditioning gets better and he starts to play the way he did last year. Back to last year, Walt Clyde Frazier (A hall of famer) repeatedly said throughout the second half of the season that Marbury was playing the best basketball of his career. I dont think the efficiency ratings are accurate, especially with teams that dont have good records. I guess at this point we agree to disagree?

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    Originally Posted by knicklover
    Msg,

    Take a look at the efficiency stats for just guards at NBA.com. They have the stats for the last 4 years available. Last time I looked Marbury was ranked around 50th. I am willing to excuse this year a bit because of his personal problems, but if you look at the trend he has been falling rapidly over the last few years. Granted, stats like these are not perfect, but sometimes they are better than personal opinions when people don't agree because at least there's no emotion involved.
    Im lookin at the efficiency stats and Crawford is ahead of several players that he should not be ahead of. I dont like any of these stats, I seen some stats from a website called 82games.com that are worse then these but there are defensive specialists who lock down their opponents without blockin shots and gettin steals. Marbury did a great job of playin defense last year by smothering his opponents and constantly gettin a hand in their faces. You have already lost this battle a couple times, are you going to keep trying and losing or are you finally going to give up? I provided stats that are valid, your stats as you admitted yourself are not reliable.

    Wtf are we arguin about anyways?

    Marburys defense?
    Marburys efficiency?
    Marburys top 15 status?
    Marburys great play last year?
    Marburys offensive capabilites?
    Marburys leadership and teamplay?
    Marburys ability to perform under pressure?

    I think I won most of these battles if not all of them, I laid down the facts and you continue to change the arguement everytime I provided my stats. Even if you come back with a stat to prove one of these questions wrong, I still won almost all of them. Its like winnin a battle but the war has already been won. I think Im done here.

  4. #109
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    Originally Posted by MSGKnickz33
    Marbury just needs to be Marbury, shooting guards dont average 8 assists a game. Marbury needs to go back to his roots and do what he did before Larry Clown coached this team and convinced everyone that Marbury is not a point guard. You cant try to coach Marbury, you gotta let him be himself and give him freedom.

    How is Marbury suppose to make his teammates better? Steve Nash and Jason Kidd would retire trying to make this group of players better. When your starting 2guard and smallforward cant hit a shot, what do you expect?

    I look at Marbury as a point guard. If anyone is a shooting guard in a point guards body that would be the overrated Tony Parker. He is has been molded into the Spurs system but put him on the Knicks and everyone would be wishin we still had Marbury. Parker would average 3 or 4 assists per game and go home everynight and dream about playin in San Antonio again.
    Hell, Wilt Chamberline averaged 10 assists one year and he was a center! Assists doesn't define a pg; it's the total game of the player. It's his decision making on the court; how he leads a team and executes a game plan. Marbury lacks the tangibles that make him not only a top notch guard; but a winner! Any team that has Marbury and Iverson will not win unless they are surrounded by so many other players that bring what these guys lack. You can have a guy like Odem on the court with Marbury and what "Starbury" lacks in being a leader Odem would bring so Steph would fall back to doing what he does best; scoring. Again, not to just pick on Marbury and Curry, it is the entire makeup of this team that has them where they are. Isiah is the problem more than any other person! Get rid of him and bring in competent basketball minds and you will see this franchise turn around; until then enjoy being in the basement and the laughing stock of the NBA!!

  5. #110
    Go 1990s New York Knicks! nyKnicks126's Avatar
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    haha. That was the Wilt Chamberline years.. Players weren't as talented as they are today... Thats why he averaged 10 assists per game... The people around Wilt opponents, and teammates weren't really good. There are exceptions to what I am sayin.

    Now the Point guard IS the definition of leadership and ASSISTS... They are the players that need to involve there teammates around them, build leadership, and make everyone on the team better because of one player the point.

    Jason Kidd, and Steve Nash are one of the best examples.

    Anyway.

    Trade Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford, Z Bo.. and I am sorry to say. Renaldo Balkman ( Great hustle but his value is droppin its a wasted talent thanks to Isiah Thomas, I want this young player to form himself into a great prospect for a different team.. and make himself a potential 15 point, 7 rebound player one day... Of course not in NY. The Knicks play Alien.....Jeffries, or old man Rose... instead of a spark like Balkman.)
    I feel bad for the kid. Not gettin any minutes.

    Keep. Marbs (contract), Rose (contract), Lee,
    Last edited by nyKnicks126; Jan 09, 2008 at 15:18.

  6. #111
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    Originally Posted by MSGKnickz33
    Im lookin at the efficiency stats and Crawford is ahead of several players that he should not be ahead of. I dont like any of these stats, I seen some stats from a website called 82games.com that are worse then these but there are defensive specialists who lock down their opponents without blockin shots and gettin steals. Marbury did a great job of playin defense last year by smothering his opponents and constantly gettin a hand in their faces. You have already lost this battle a couple times, are you going to keep trying and losing or are you finally going to give up? I provided stats that are valid, your stats as you admitted yourself are not reliable.

    Wtf are we arguin about anyways?

    Marburys defense?
    Marburys efficiency?
    Marburys top 15 status?
    Marburys great play last year?
    Marburys offensive capabilites?
    Marburys leadership and teamplay?
    Marburys ability to perform under pressure?

    I think I won most of these battles if not all of them, I laid down the facts and you continue to change the arguement everytime I provided my stats. Even if you come back with a stat to prove one of these questions wrong, I still won almost all of them. Its like winnin a battle but the war has already been won. I think Im done here.
    You crack me up.

    You won the battles just like Isiah is going to leave a legacy in NY on how to coach and build a team.

    You point out those stats that make your case and ignore eveything that refutes them even if statistical experts with super high math IQs created the ones you don't like.

    Everyone knows that Marbury is not the same player he was 5 years ago despite the fact that he still has great games here or there.

    Everyone knows he's not among the leading guards anymore either.

    Debating the actual degree of his decline or his actual current ranking is a highly subjective process and a waste of time. No stats are perfect (even the good ones generated by the NBA or 82games), but if they rank you 50th, you can be sure they aren't off by 35.
    Last edited by knicklover; Jan 09, 2008 at 16:25.

  7. #112
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    Originally Posted by hometheaterguy
    Hell, Wilt Chamberline averaged 10 assists one year and he was a center! Assists doesn't define a pg; it's the total game of the player. It's his decision making on the court; how he leads a team and executes a game plan. Marbury lacks the tangibles that make him not only a top notch guard; but a winner! Any team that has Marbury and Iverson will not win unless they are surrounded by so many other players that bring what these guys lack. You can have a guy like Odem on the court with Marbury and what "Starbury" lacks in being a leader Odem would bring so Steph would fall back to doing what he does best; scoring. Again, not to just pick on Marbury and Curry, it is the entire makeup of this team that has them where they are. Isiah is the problem more than any other person! Get rid of him and bring in competent basketball minds and you will see this franchise turn around; until then enjoy being in the basement and the laughing stock of the NBA!!
    Iverson brought Philadelphia to the finals with a bunch of role players. I dont know how anyone can criticize Iverson, this gets me even more mad then hearing Marbury get criticized. He plays his ass off every game through injuries or whatever. Hes still one of the best players in the league. In my opinion anyone who has a problem with Iverson its likely because of his hip hop image and you said both Marbury and Iverson need other talented players around them to win. This tells me that you got a problem with Marburys image as well so Im wasting my time responding to you. I believe that anyone who watched the Knicks last year from January on knows what Marbury is capable of. I agree that the makeup of this team is a huge problem and that Isiah is the biggest problem but I dont respect anything critical you say about marbury.

    Originally Posted by knicklover
    You crack me up.

    You won the battles just like Isiah is going to leave a legacy in NY on how to coach and build a team.

    You point out those stats that make your case and ignore eveything that refutes them even if statistical experts with super high math IQs created the ones you don't like.

    Everyone knows that Marbury is not the same player he was 5 years ago despite the fact that he still has great games here or there.

    Everyone knows he's not among the leading guards anymore either.

    Debating the actual degree of his decline or his actual current ranking is a highly subjective process and a waste of time. No stats are perfect (even the good ones generated by the NBA or 82games), but if they rank you 50th, you can be sure they aren't off by 35.
    I shut down arguement after arguement of yours and those stats clearly suck and they dont include opponents points per game. Marbury didnt start playin well last year until January, if you want me to figure out his averages from January on I will but I think Im wasting my time and your time.

    I agree that Marbury is not the same player he was 5 years ago, hes better. Last year was his best year maybe not statistically but he became more of a team player and played excellent on defense.

    Hes not among the leading guards anymore, I agree right now but I see him becoming a top 10 point guard again in the near future.

    Im gettin tired of saying "you dont even watch the Knicks" but by alot of the things you said I dont think you watch them. If you think Marbury was better 5 years ago then he was last year then you gotta change the channel.

    Your efficiency stats were a good last minute effort but this debate is over. Im not sure why I continue to respond to you when you keep comin back with garbage.

  8. #113
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    Originally Posted by MSGKnickz33
    Iverson brought Philadelphia to the finals with a bunch of role players. I dont know how anyone can criticize Iverson, this gets me even more mad then hearing Marbury get criticized. He plays his ass off every game through injuries or whatever. Hes still one of the best players in the league. In my opinion anyone who has a problem with Iverson its likely because of his hip hop image and you said both Marbury and Iverson need other talented players around them to win. This tells me that you got a problem with Marburys image as well so Im wasting my time responding to you. I believe that anyone who watched the Knicks last year from January on knows what Marbury is capable of. I agree that the makeup of this team is a huge problem and that Isiah is the biggest problem but I dont respect anything critical you say about marbury.



    I shut down arguement after arguement of yours and those stats clearly suck and they dont include opponents points per game. Marbury didnt start playin well last year until January, if you want me to figure out his averages from January on I will but I think Im wasting my time and your time.

    I agree that Marbury is not the same player he was 5 years ago, hes better. Last year was his best year maybe not statistically but he became more of a team player and played excellent on defense.

    Hes not among the leading guards anymore, I agree right now but I see him becoming a top 10 point guard again in the near future.

    Im gettin tired of saying "you dont even watch the Knicks" but by alot of the things you said I dont think you watch them. If you think Marbury was better 5 years ago then he was last year then you gotta change the channel.

    Your efficiency stats were a good last minute effort but this debate is over. Im not sure why I continue to respond to you when you keep comin back with garbage.
    One of the reasons that Marbury's game seemed to elevate in the second half last year was because we had a number of injuries. He was shooting more and forced to carry more of the offensive load. Marbury is fully capable of averaging 20+ points per game even now, but the Knicks would suck even worse if he did because he is no longer as efficient a player as he used to be. That's what you are missing. THE STATS YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE PROVE THAT.

    Also, in the last few weeks I have contacted several basketball statisticians hoping to find the type of defensive stats you mentioned. I agree they would be very helpful. None are available to the public, but a few teams employ people to calculate them. Something like that will eventually be available on 82games.com.

    The best stats available are the efficiency stats because they are at least a very broad measurement, and the +/- stats done by 82games that actually take into account the players you are on the court with.

    Guys like Marbury (AND IVERSON for your information) rank lower than the average basketball fan would think. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Here's the Knicks for 2006/2007

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Here's the Knicks for 2007/2008 so far

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    Last edited by knicklover; Jan 10, 2008 at 15:34.

  9. #114
    The Gold Mac MSGKnickz33's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by knicklover
    One of the reasons that Marbury's game seemed to elevate in the second half last year was because we had a number of injuries. He was shooting more and forced to carry more of the offensive load. Marbury is fully capable of averaging 20+ points per game even now, but the Knicks would suck even worse if he did because he is no longer as efficient a player as he used to be. That's what you are missing. THE STATS YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE PROVE THAT.

    Also, in the last few weeks I have contacted several basketball statisticians hoping to find the type of defensive stats you mentioned. I agree they would be very helpful. None are available to the public, but a few teams employ people to calculate them. Something like that will eventually be available on 82games.com.

    The best stats available are the efficiency stats because they are at least a very broad measurement, and the +/- stats done by 82games that actually take into account the players you are on the court with.

    Guys like Marbury (AND IVERSON for your information) rank lower than the average basketball fan would think. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Here's the Knicks for 2006/2007

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

    Here's the Knicks for 2007/2008 so far

    [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
    The first website you provided:

    Rondo=#16
    Chir Paul=#25
    Marbury=#48
    AmareStoudamire=#72
    BrandonRoy=#129
    Crawford=#132
    Curry=#142
    RichardJefferson=#150

    Do you expect me to buy this? Check your stats first next time.

    Website#2 06-07 Knicks

    Somehow Crawford and Curry are ahead of Marbury

    Website #3 Current Knicks

    Crawford is the 4th most efficient Knick after Morris, Chandler, and Lee?


    Marburys field goal % has dropped a little bit from what it was from 98-99 to 05-06 but his 3p fg% is better then ever. He still has way better shooting percentages then Jason Kidd. Tony Parker shoots 29.4% from downtown.

    The fact is Marbury has some flaws but what player doesnt. Its not Marburys flaws holdin this team back, its the team, the coach, and the gm holdin this team back.

    Efficiency Stats and 82games.com suck, I proved them both to not be valid. You come back with a stupid arguement sayin his fg% is lower, well not by much and at least hes hittin 3's now, sumthin this team really needs.

    3P field goal %'s

    Jason Williams-34%
    Stephon Marbury-38.6%
    Mike Bibby-36%(last year, hasnt played a game yet this year)

    We'll do it the way you wanted to do it (no homo), fg%'s

    Jason Williams-38.8%
    Stephon Marbury-41.7%
    Mike Bibby-40.4%

    How many times do I have to own you? If Marbury was traded for another point guard, it would likely be for white chocolate or Bibby. Bibby hasnt even played yet this year, we dont know what he can even do at this point. Jason Williams is a joke compared to Marbury. Starbury is a better defender then both of these players. I know I keep sayin that Im gonna stop this arguement but time after time you make it too easy for me. Just give up man you got deboed 6 or 7 times and you didnt watch the Knicks last year. Either your racist or your nieve and listen to everything the press says, you obviously got sumthin against Marbury.

  10. #115
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    Originally Posted by MSGKnickz33
    Either your racist or your nieve and listen to everything the press says, you obviously got sumthin against Marbury.

    i was almost going to post a reply about steve nash... but i won't.. don't want to be branded a 'racist'

  11. #116
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    I much rather have Marbury lead this offense than Crawford and Curry

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    MSGKnickz33,

    The only thing you own is your very inflated ego.

    The stats in the first link were from the 2006-2007 season, not this year. That's why some of the rankings (like Jefferson) don't make much sense to you based on the 2007-2008 performances of the players. For example, Jefferson was hurt last year, but is having a career year this year. I gave you that link so you could read how the ratings are calculated. Read the introduction and explanation.

    The stats for this year for the Knicks have been calculated based on a more limited sample because the season is in progress. For example, Chandler and Morris have not played enough minutes for their stats to be relevant yet (that's why they look goofy), but that is clear in the table under minutes. As is always the cases with stats, the larger the sample, the more reliable the results. The regular players (starters etc...) have stats that are more representative of the performance of the players this year.

    If you happen to not agree with the more relevant ratings, that could easily say more about your opinions than the ratings. The ratings were developed by a statistics expert that is now employed by an NBA team (not a message board fan in love with Marbury).

    You should have taken the time to read everything what I was presenting. It's good stuff. I am trying to give you more information on which to base your opinions.

    I have no desire to get into a continuing debate with you. I am as confident that I am right as you are. I am simply using the work of a statistical genius in addition to my observations to form my opinion. We are entitled to agree to disagree without getting personal.
    Last edited by knicklover; Jan 10, 2008 at 17:35.

  13. #118
    The Gold Mac MSGKnickz33's Avatar
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    Everything you said means nothin to me, I win 10-0.

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    a team this far under .500 shouldn't have people who r "untouchable" in a trade scenario that could actually improve the team. not anyone of the starters, not anyone on the bench, NO ONE SHOULD B ABOVE A TRADE.



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    Originally Posted by paris401
    i was almost going to post a reply about steve nash... but i won't.. don't want to be branded a 'racist'
    I didnt even look at Nash's shooting percentages, I already know the deal. Hes one of the best shooters in the league at the point guard position. I was gonna bring up Deron Williams but hes a much better shooter then I thought.

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