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Thread: The Bible - Proof that Christianity is True

  1. #136
    Superstar pat's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TunerAddict
    That makes you not worth debating with. If you are truly that ignorant, you are beyond hope. The planet and mankind are far older than 6k years. You are nothing but church propaganda. You cannot be taken seriously because you only regurgitate the things that you were taught without looking for your own answers. You, sir, are a sheep.

    And I do respect you for having such strong beliefs and convictions, but its hard for me to understand how one can deny such overwhelming scientific evidence as to the age of the earth and mankind.
    True that. The only way the old testament is acceptable in the light of scientific findings is as a myth (and I don't mean that disrespectfully). Even among reasonable and intelligent theologians it is generally accepted that the bible is not verbally inspired by God (not even the New Testament). If it were, how come that the gospels contradict each other?

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay

    Give me one example, a real example not a made up one from the bible, where two individuals of any species have been able to sustain a viable population without suffering serious genetic diseases. And Adam and Eve is not an answer. Because they did not exist. Besides, in that story, there still had to be inbreeding. So Adam and Eve had sex with their children, and their children had sex with each other. That's just gross man. What a religion!
    That is the main problem of this discussion. Understanding the old testament as a mythological explanation of life on earth solves the either/or problem. It is possible to understand Gen. as a mythological explanation of evolution. The same can be said for the deluge. There is considerable archaeological evidence that there was a severe flood that would correspond roughly with the time at which Genesis was written. Make it a few hundred years before it was actually written down and you have plenty of time to make a disaster a myth. Considering myself an agnostic I am not sure yet whether this makes Christianity a respectable religion for me. But what I can definitely say for myself is that this is the only way Christianity is thinkable for me because it gives me the chance to respect other religious explanations as equally plausible but not as apart of my cultural heritage.

    And for those of you who are interested, you should read the Ancient Epic of Gilgamesh which was written in cuneiform writing and pre-dates the Old Testament. You will be astonished to which degree the deluge and a story in there resemble each other.
    Last edited by pat; Jul 04, 2008 at 08:05.

  2. #137
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    How can you prove that neanderthals existed? You seen one? Anyone ever have? So mankind went from dumb to smart? How did women evolve? Hmm. How do you know that single cell organisms existed? If that is a fact, then how come every neanderthal or apeman ever shown in an meuseum is said to be imaginatory based on the individuals taste? Why don't all scientists agree with that theory? What makes the Scientist who believe in intelligent design, differ from those who don't? They examine the same things , correct? WHAT FACTS DO SCIENTIST HAVE THAT NEANDERTHALS EXISTED? THEY HAVE NONE. THEORY.

    I said they have proven that humans SHOULD be capable of living forever, if not for the fact that we get old and die. They don't know why we age to the point of death. These things that regenerate with ease during youth stop all the sudden after a time. A mystery to them. Why? They can tell us about neanderthals 250,000 years ago.

    And after all their rigorous testing, they still cannot say for a fact how even the earth was here. Theory.
    You need to stop making things up and claiming scientists just make stuff up in their heads. Your lack of knowledge of the natural world is truly astounding. Were you home schooled? Or did you make a serious conscious effort to ignore facts.

    We have many complete skelatal Neanderthal Man fossil remains that were dated by carbon dating. They first existed around 250,000 years ago and eventually became extinct around 50,000 years ago.

    Neanderthal Man skull:


    An image drawn by Neanderthal Man. Found in a cave where the remains of Neanderthal Man were found:


    The oldest fossils we have are of Stromatolites. They have a similar structure as blue-green algae (i.e., cyanobacteria). These fossils are dated to be 3.5 billion years old.


    These are facts that Neanderthal Man existed.

    DNA researcher Svante Pääbo has tested more than 70 Neanderthal specimens and found that humans and Neanderthal Man share about 99.5% of their DNA. And though they shared much of the same DNA, the sequencing of mitochondrial DNA is very different, proving their was a humanoid creature different from modern humans that had language, buried their dead, created artwork and tools and had many other human like behaviors. You must not have watched the video I posted earlier. Here it is again:


    Continue to ignore the facts or believing an evil invisible man is making scientists discover these things if it makes you feel better. I prefer to know the truth. But the fact is, scientists DO NOT MAKE THIS UP IN THEIR HEADS!!

    Adam made many children with Eve, how many who knows. Adam surely did not sleep with his children. Silly. You beleieve Jesus existed WHOSE LINEAGE IS FROM ADAM, but ADAM did not exist? That makes sense.
    So Adam and Eve's children just slept with each other. That is still incest and disgusting. You still have not given me an example of two individuals of a species able to sustain a viable population through sexual reproduction without suffering serious genetic diseases.

    There is actually more evidence that they do exist, than neanderthals lol.
    Wow! Of all the crazy things you've posted in this discussion this one just made my jaw drop. See above facts and examples of neanderthals. But I'm sure you'll ignore those and come up with some other crazy claim that they must have made it up.

    So the only place that we can find out about Jesus is the bible that you don't believe in, but you believe Jesus existed, from a fictional book? Ok.

    Are we really comparing the son of God to a deranged psycho-rapist-mass murderer? Did Jesus force anyone to follow him? Did Jesus followers have spears and swords going down to kill those apprehending him?

    Wow...
    The bible is not the only source for information about the life of Jesus and I did not say Jesus was a rapist and murderer. The point was to show you how people can be influenced by other people. How they can think he performed miracles as did the followers of Koresh. And I've already shown you how the stories of Jesus were taken from religions developed before Christianity. Example: Dionisis, the son of god, born of a mortal virgin woman, turning water into wine, curing people, etc. Come to think of it, maybe Jesus never existed. I'm not convinced now.

    Science can never prove the bible wrong. Can't ever happen. The bible has facts about the earth long before science knew for sure they were facts. I know, I know.. a magical merchant. Yea, that guy guessed and it became fact.
    Well, I've already proven the bible wrong multiple times but you've chosen to ignore these facts or come upi with crazy excuses that scientists just make this stuff up.

    You kept bringing up my merchant example. Forgive me, I had to pull that from memory of a book I read almost 4 years ago. But since you are so adamant about the bible saying the earth was round before anybody else knew about it, his name was Aritostonese. And I misquoted, he was a scientist, not a merchant. He lived in the ancient city of Alexandria. He discovered the earth was round by observing shadows at the same time of day in two cities, several miles apart. A pole in one city did not cast a shadow at noon, while a pole of equal length in Alexandria did cast a shadow. How could that be if the earth was flat? He also calculated the circumference of the earth by measuring the length of the shadows and pacing the distance between the two cities. Amazingly, he was very accurate, about 97% accurate.

    And if science is supposed to benefit mankind so much, how come science can't heal people permanently? Or stop death? Where is the damn cancer vaccine already? IT'S BEEN AGES THAT MONSTER BEEN AROUND! Science gets donated BILLIONS of dollars a year and Cancer still around! They are just now within the past 30-40 years starting to realize the earth is being ruined! Science is also somewhat responsible for NUCLEAR WARFARE! Where are the lasting benefits of human science? THERE ARE NONE! Yet a man in sandals and a dress walked on water, healed the sick and fed the poor with 2 fish and three loaves of bread. A man you believe exist, and his story is only in one place, but you don't believe the story, or that Adam was his parent, but you believe he existed. People just decided to make this man a deity to control the masses.

    And men were running around hairy and dumb clubbing eachother 250,000 years back , and now look, they can save the world through science!
    I do not claim science to be perfect. You claim the bible to be perfect. Science has a goal of understanding the universe. That doesn't exclude the possibility of a bad person using science to do bad things. And while you bring up examples of bad things as the result of scientific discovery, do I really need to bring up all the examples of bad things done as a result of religion? Religion has caused more death and violence than anything else.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Jul 04, 2008 at 15:34.

  3. #138
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Default Secular Historians

    Everyone is still arguing to a point of no end. The point of this thread was to get the idea of each person which i clearly got and their view which i got plenty of times...but yet i think only one person actually looked at the site and read it...heres one part of the site from Secular Historians that made them believe Jesus was the Messiah written from an outside source and not from the Bible....
    The Proof of Historians

    Secular history supports the Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:
    “Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
    In 115 AD, P. Cornelius Tacitus wrote the following passage that refers to Jesus (called “Christus,” which means “The Messiah”) in book 15, chapter 44 of The Annals:
    “Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.”

  4. #139
    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    There it is. I forgot about that one. I knew Jesus existed from other sources outside of the bible. Thank you.

  5. #140
    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    There it is. I forgot about that one. I knew Jesus existed from other sources outside of the bible. Thank you.
    Your sarcasm and response prove you did not understand or even read the text. Both passages talk about Jesus in existence referring Him as The Messiah.

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    Veteran LJ4ptplay's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paul1355
    Your sarcasm and response prove you did not understand or even read the text. Both passages talk about Jesus in existence referring Him as The Messiah.
    Whoa. Wait a minute. I wasn't being sarcastic. If you had read some of my previous posts, I believed Jesus existed. But Knicks4life essentially said I was contradicting myself by saying I believed Jesus existed but didn't believe the bible. I was just saying I knew there were sources other than the bible that talked about Jesus existing. And I did read the text. Historians believe Jesus existed and some believe he is the Messiah (hence the name translating to Messiah). And it is well known that the Romans tortured Christians. I believe he existed, but I don't believe he was the son of God. It does not say anywhere in those quotes that Jesus is the son of God. It states that he was a good man who had a lot of followers, which I also believe. Believing in Jesus rising from the dead is where faith begins.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Jul 04, 2008 at 17:44.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    You need to stop making things up and claiming scientists just make stuff up in their heads. Your lack of knowledge of the natural world is truly astounding. Were you home schooled? Or did you make a serious conscious effort to ignore facts.

    We have many complete skelatal Neanderthal Man fossil remains that were dated by carbon dating. They first existed around 250,000 years ago and eventually became extinct around 50,000 years ago.

    Neanderthal Man skull:


    An image drawn by Neanderthal Man. Found in a cave where the remains of Neanderthal Man were found:


    The oldest fossils we have are of Stromatolites. They have a similar structure as blue-green algae (i.e., cyanobacteria). These fossils are dated to be 3.5 billion years old.


    These are facts that Neanderthal Man existed.

    DNA researcher Svante Pääbo has tested more than 70 Neanderthal specimens and found that humans and Neanderthal Man share about 99.5% of their DNA. And though they shared much of the same DNA, the sequencing of mitochondrial DNA is very different, proving their was a humanoid creature different from modern humans that had language, buried their dead, created artwork and tools and had many other human like behaviors. You must not have watched the video I posted earlier. Here it is again:


    Continue to ignore the facts or believing an evil invisible man is making scientists discover these things if it makes you feel better. I prefer to know the truth. But the fact is, scientists DO NOT MAKE THIS UP IN THEIR HEADS!!



    So Adam and Eve's children just slept with each other. That is still incest and disgusting. You still have not given me an example of two individuals of a species able to sustain a viable population through sexual reproduction without suffering serious genetic diseases.
    Have you ever heard of the Nephilim? Look it up. Remarkably similar to the so called neanderthal species they find. And they did not live 250k years ago either.

    Well since other sources spoke of a world wide flood, I suppose you believe that happened as well. Well what did the animals have to reproduce? It it started with two of each, did they not have to essentially do what Adam and Eve did? Hmm.




    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Wow! Of all the crazy things you've posted in this discussion this one just made my jaw drop. See above facts and examples of neanderthals. But I'm sure you'll ignore those and come up with some other crazy claim that they must have made it up.
    This is Jesus, whom you say existed, having a conversation with an invisible man.
    Luke 4:1 Now Jesus, full of holy spirit, turned away from the Jordan, and he was led about by the spirit in the wilderness 2 for forty days, while being tempted by the Devil. Furthermore, he ate nothing in those days, and so, when they were concluded, he felt hungry. 3 At this the Devil said to him: “If you are a son of God, tell this stone to become a loaf of bread.” 4 But Jesus replied to him: “It is written, ‘Man must not live by bread alone.’”
    5 So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. 7 You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.” 8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
    9 Now he led him into Jerusalem and stationed him upon the battlement of the temple and said to him: “If you are a son of God, hurl yourself down from here; 10 for it is written, ‘He will give his angels a charge concerning you, to preserve you,’ 11 and, ‘They will carry you on their hands, that you may at no time strike your foot against a stone.’” 12 In answer Jesus said to him: “It is said, ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.’” 13 So the Devil, having concluded all the temptation, retired from him until another convenient time.

    Hmm. Devil seemed pretty real to him. Plus, he also supposedly cast out demons from other humans. But hold on, not just him alone, his diisciples also casted out demons, healed and raised the dead. In front of witnesses too. Guess it's all made up though.



    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    The bible is not the only source for information about the life of Jesus and I did not say Jesus was a rapist and murderer. The point was to show you how people can be influenced by other people. How they can think he performed miracles as did the followers of Koresh. And I've already shown you how the stories of Jesus were taken from religions developed before Christianity. Example: Dionisis, the son of god, born of a mortal virgin woman, turning water into wine, curing people, etc. Come to think of it, maybe Jesus never existed. I'm not convinced now.
    It is the only rtue source of information about him. And it's the only one he relied on. Look at what he once read in temple.

    Luke 4:
    16 And he came to Naz´a·reth, where he had been reared; and, according to his custom on the sabbath day, he entered into the synagogue, and he stood up to read. 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, 19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.” 20 With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed upon him. 21 Then he started to say to them: “Today this scripture that YOU just heard is fulfilled.”

    So Jesus relied on a fictional book that it's prophecies luckily just happen to take place, and wait a second! It appears he said he just FULLFILLED one of those prophecies! Clearly if he is relying on the bible, he must believe in it. It is the only book he ever quoted, so I would suppose it is the only true source to know about him.



    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Well, I've already proven the bible wrong multiple times but you've chosen to ignore these facts or come upi with crazy excuses that scientists just make this stuff up.
    You've proven the bible wrong on what account? Have you proven it wrong, or have you found some alternative theory that you prefer to believe? That is different from proving something wrong.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    You kept bringing up my merchant example. Forgive me, I had to pull that from memory of a book I read almost 4 years ago. But since you are so adamant about the bible saying the earth was round before anybody else knew about it, his name was Aritostonese. And I misquoted, he was a scientist, not a merchant. He lived in the ancient city of Alexandria. He discovered the earth was round by observing shadows at the same time of day in two cities, several miles apart. A pole in one city did not cast a shadow at noon, while a pole of equal length in Alexandria did cast a shadow. How could that be if the earth was flat? He also calculated the circumference of the earth by measuring the length of the shadows and pacing the distance between the two cities. Amazingly, he was very accurate, about 97% accurate.
    Job is over 3500 years old. And it had this fact. How old is this account? And maybe this guy even figured it out the way it happened. All this proves though is that the bible is again not ever wrong on scientific facts. That is astounding considering how much scientist today revise their beliefs and the bible is basically as old as dirt and never has to revise to fit the times. It's ageless. Pretty amazing. Have you read job 38? When God is breaking down the very contellations of the stars to Job? Constellations... Think about that. 3500 years ago.


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I do not claim science to be perfect. You claim the bible to be perfect. Science has a goal of understanding the universe. That doesn't exclude the possibility of a bad person using science to do bad things. And while you bring up examples of bad things as the result of scientific discovery, do I really need to bring up all the examples of bad things done as a result of religion? Religion has caused more death and violence than anything else.
    You claimed that science to be for the best interest of mankind. Like making the atomic bomb I would guess. And people still do a lot of terrible things in the name of religion, but then you'd have to wonder if there is a God, would he accept on the basis of his name. The God of the bible is very clear on how a true servant of his should live. And it would be contrary to all religions on earth save 1 right now.

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    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Whoa. Wait a minute. I wasn't being sarcastic. If you had read some of my previous posts, I believed Jesus existed. But Knicks4life essentially said I was contradicting myself by saying I believed Jesus existed but didn't believe the bible. I was just saying I knew there were sources other than the bible that talked about Jesus existing. And I did read the text. Historians believe Jesus existed and some believe he is the Messiah (hence the name translating to Messiah). And it is well known that the Romans tortured Christians. I believe he existed, but I don't believe he was the son of God. It does not say anywhere in those quotes that Jesus is the son of God. It states that he was a good man who had a lot of followers, which I also believe. Believing in Jesus rising from the dead is where faith begins.
    ok I thought by you saying "ok.thanks." that it was a form of sarcasm sorry if you felt offended in any way. And you have a point they dont talk about him being the son of God but if they believe he is the Messiah than that makes everything that Jesus and his disciples said true...And your right about faith that is why the Christian belief is all about faith. So your saying that if you are convinced that Jesus rose from the dead...then that will be a first step for you to possibly having faith in him?

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    Veteran TunerAddict's Avatar
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    I just have one more thing to say.

    You CANNOT prove the bible by quoting it. So stop. It proves nothing. ****, I can go and quote Lord of the Rings but it doesn't make it true.

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    Originally Posted by TunerAddict
    I just have one more thing to say.

    You CANNOT prove the bible by quoting it. So stop. It proves nothing. ****, I can go and quote Lord of the Rings but it doesn't make it true.
    But it is proven true if it happens. None of you yet could argue that the prophecies of the bible are inaccurate. Why? Because they have been astoundingly accurate to the most minute detail.

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    Superstar pat's Avatar
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    This is just like arguing about Marbury. You'll never convince the other side. Just leave it at that. Although I still believe that science and religion can coexist peacefully. There are numerous Christian physics, MDs, archaeologists.

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    Originally Posted by pat
    This is just like arguing about Marbury. You'll never convince the other side. Just leave it at that. Although I still believe that science and religion can coexist peacefully. There are numerous Christian physics, MDs, archaeologists.

    WWell arguing about Marbury is perception usually. Some like him, some don't. But non don't argue about his numbers.

    Jehovah foretold the destruction of a once thriving world power down to the finest detaill thousands of years ago. Said he would annihilate Babylon to where it can not be inhabited. And also exactly how this destruction would start.

    Babyblon cannot be inhabited. Just like he said. That is like someone predicting a thriving city like NY will not ever again being inhabited. I'd like a scientist to predict the likelyhood of that and it being accurate.

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    I'll inhabit Babylon.

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    From my previous post:

    The prophet Isaiah, for instance, foretold the drying up of all the waters of the Egypt, and the destruction of all land used for plantation due to this drying up of the River Nile.

    Quote:
    Isaiah 19:5-7
    And the waters of the Nile will be dried up, and the river will be parched and dry; and its canal will become foul, and the branches of Egypt's Nile will diminish and dry up, reeds and rushes will rot away. There will be bare places by the Nile, on the brink of the Nile, and all that is sown by the Nile will dry up, be driven away, and be no more.
    This never happened. The bible is not perfect. It has made errors. Stop these claims that the bible has never been wrong.

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    Veteran Paul1355's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    From my previous post:



    This never happened. The bible is not perfect. It has made errors. Stop these claims that the bible has never been wrong.
    LJ, if your convinced that Jesus rose from the dead, would that be a first step for you to have faith in Him?

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