International Players More Hype than Hope

[jimenezz7]

Seeing how this is MY THREAD. I'm going to have to defend it from two morons in it. Because what I'm saying is historically accurate. And yes there is actual EVIDENCE.

In track, the purest test of athletic ability, runners of African descent hold every single men's world record at every standard distance, from the 100 meters (where no non-black athlete has held the world record since 1960) to the marathon.

In pro football, the positions that require the greatest combination of speed, power and explosiveness -- wide receiver, cornerback and running back -- are almost entirely played by blacks. In pro basketball -- the sport that requires the greatest combination of leaping ability, power bursts and agility -- almost all the starters and virtually all the superstars are black. In baseball, blacks are also disproportionately represented, although not to the same degree that they are in the more athletically demanding basketball and football.

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Honestly guy your just a waste to society your 25 dont know anything about life and this is a waste of my time.You can call me whatever you want I know what I got in the BANK and I know your just a frustrated little racist kid.So now this will be the last time I waste my time with you Im gonna go back to talking basketball and you can go back to reading lines from Roots

[metrocard]

[KnicksFan4Realz]

Honestly guy your just a waste to society your 25 dont know anything about life and this is a waste of my time.You can call me whatever you want I know what I got in the BANK and I know your just a frustrated little racist kid.So now this will be the last time I waste my time with you Im gonna go back to talking basketball and you can go back to reading lines from Roots

Don't be mad just because that stats against you. There is a frequency there...don't excuse your discomfort in talking about race by merely acting if as it does not exist.

You people are so ****ing PC these days, the very moment one acknowledges something in a racial context you state they are racist. It would surprise me a jackass like you would even know the definition of the word.

To be racist...one must believe there's is superior to another. To look at the statistics that bear out dominance of one group in a particular category when the mathematics back up said claim..is not racism. It's called TRUTH.

Taken from the ARTICLE:

There is extensive and persuasive evidence that elite black athletes have a phenotypic advantage -- a distinctive skeletal system and musculature, metabolic structures, and other characteristics forged over tens of thousands of years of evolution," Entine writes. "Preliminary research suggests that different phenotypes are at least partially encoded in the genes -- conferring genotypic differences, which may result in an advantage in some sports."

So what are those phenotypic (i.e. observable) advantages?

His findings: "Blacks with a West African ancestry generally have: relatively less subcutaneous fat on arms and legs and proportionally more lean body and muscle mass, broader shoulders, larger quadriceps, and bigger, more developed musculature in general; smaller chest cavities; a higher center of gravity ... faster patellar tendon reflex; greater body density ... modest. but significantly higher, levels of plasma testosterone ... which is anabolic, theoretically contributing to greater muscle mass, lower fat, and the ability to perform at a higher level of intensity with quicker recovery; a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscles and more anaerobic enzymes, which can translate into more explosive energy."

With genetic research still in its infancy, of course, no one can assert with certainty that these phenotypic advantages are in fact encoded genetically -- the research hasn't been done yet. But Entine argues that with "dramatic advances in quantitative genetics," it's only a matter of time. (Africa has greater genetic variety than any other continent, which helps to explain why people of African descent can be genetically gifted.)

[TunerAddict]

Don't be mad just because that stats against you. There is a frequency there...don't excuse your discomfort in talking about race by merely acting if as it does not exist.

You people are so ****ing PC these days, the very moment one acknowledges something in a racial context you state they are racist. It would surprise me a jackass like you would even know the definition of the word.

To be racist...one must believe there's is superior to another. To look at the statistics that bear out dominance of one group in a particular category when the mathematics back up said claim..is not racism. It's called TRUTH.

Taken from the ARTICLE:

There is extensive and persuasive evidence that elite black athletes have a phenotypic advantage -- a distinctive skeletal system and musculature, metabolic structures, and other characteristics forged over tens of thousands of years of evolution," Entine writes. "Preliminary research suggests that different phenotypes are at least partially encoded in the genes -- conferring genotypic differences, which may result in an advantage in some sports."

So what are those phenotypic (i.e. observable) advantages?

His findings: "Blacks with a West African ancestry generally have: relatively less subcutaneous fat on arms and legs and proportionally more lean body and muscle mass, broader shoulders, larger quadriceps, and bigger, more developed musculature in general; smaller chest cavities; a higher center of gravity ... faster patellar tendon reflex; greater body density ... modest. but significantly higher, levels of plasma testosterone ... which is anabolic, theoretically contributing to greater muscle mass, lower fat, and the ability to perform at a higher level of intensity with quicker recovery; a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscles and more anaerobic enzymes, which can translate into more explosive energy."

With genetic research still in its infancy, of course, no one can assert with certainty that these phenotypic advantages are in fact encoded genetically -- the research hasn't been done yet. But Entine argues that with "dramatic advances in quantitative genetics," it's only a matter of time. (Africa has greater genetic variety than any other continent, which helps to explain why people of African descent can be genetically gifted.)

Well you see, he turns to personal attacks because he can't refute your evidence.

[jimenezz7]

Don't be mad just because that stats against you. There is a frequency there...don't excuse your discomfort in talking about race by merely acting if as it does not exist.

You people are so ****ing PC these days, the very moment one acknowledges something in a racial context you state they are racist. It would surprise me a jackass like you would even know the definition of the word.

To be racist...one must believe there's is superior to another. To look at the statistics that bear out dominance of one group in a particular category when the mathematics back up said claim..is not racism. It's called TRUTH.

Taken from the ARTICLE:

There is extensive and persuasive evidence that elite black athletes have a phenotypic advantage -- a distinctive skeletal system and musculature, metabolic structures, and other characteristics forged over tens of thousands of years of evolution," Entine writes. "Preliminary research suggests that different phenotypes are at least partially encoded in the genes -- conferring genotypic differences, which may result in an advantage in some sports."

So what are those phenotypic (i.e. observable) advantages?

His findings: "Blacks with a West African ancestry generally have: relatively less subcutaneous fat on arms and legs and proportionally more lean body and muscle mass, broader shoulders, larger quadriceps, and bigger, more developed musculature in general; smaller chest cavities; a higher center of gravity ... faster patellar tendon reflex; greater body density ... modest. but significantly higher, levels of plasma testosterone ... which is anabolic, theoretically contributing to greater muscle mass, lower fat, and the ability to perform at a higher level of intensity with quicker recovery; a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscles and more anaerobic enzymes, which can translate into more explosive energy."

With genetic research still in its infancy, of course, no one can assert with certainty that these phenotypic advantages are in fact encoded genetically -- the research hasn't been done yet. But Entine argues that with "dramatic advances in quantitative genetics," it's only a matter of time. (Africa has greater genetic variety than any other continent, which helps to explain why people of African descent can be genetically gifted.)

Listein moron Im not politicly correct and to be honest I dont really give a **** about racism because I have been succesful in life so it dont effect me anyway in my world the only thing that matters is money it dont matter if I make it with a black guy a white guy whatever, Its the little people like you who dont have any and the easy way to explain your shortcommings is the race card.So you keep pulling out your long drawn out stats that have no bearing in life and these things you keep talking about are not gonna get you anything but laughed at.Honestly I just cant stop laughing at the **** you write you really are a CLOWN.So please stop wasting your time with me einstein this is a basketball site.But you still dont answer the question with all your stats why is it that all quarterbacks,pitchers,managers,owners,etc are white so does that make us more intelligent because if your gonna go bye statistics that would make sense right?THATS HOW ****ING IDIOTIC YOU SOUND.You are only giving your race credit for being well bread athletes I know black guys that would smack the **** out of you for what your saying.

[jimenezz7]

Well you see, he turns to personal attacks because he can't refute your evidence.

Refute what,What evidence is there,And what are you his girl why you running to defend somebody when your not involved you got nothing better to do with your time.And if I wanted to get personal there is a lot of stats I could pull out and sit here all day.You know I did have respect for your posts but now I see your just as idiotic as this clown.

[ShairanXIII]

Shar, I used all drafts from 1998 to now and pointed out over a 40 American bust in the lottery. You only pointed out like what? 3 or 4? Most of them are bolded in the late first. Your post has no relevance to my point or this thread. Anyone can bold a mock draft. I don't need to explain myself again if you can't read this post properly.

Um... you listed like 10 players from each draft that you considered busts... it's hard to agree with your point without looking at the entire draft class or first round (like I did)... I picked 2000 (worse draft of American talent)... 2002 (first draft dominated by international prospects)... and 2003 (best american draft since 96)... You see metro... when you're trying to prove a point with longitudinal data... you need to either have the entire sample... or take three representative samples... I picked varying levels of international/american dominance... and my point is this... in every draft... about 25 players are any good... if you break it down into ratios and percentages... you find that about 40% of each group ever pans out... now if you can prove that that was irrelevant or something anyone can do... disprove my point...

Point well taken. By my contention has always been you go back LOOK AT ALL THE DRAFTS, foreign products just don't pan out as much. As far as their being more AMERICAN BUSTS..of course it's no secret thats going to happen since we cast them with a wider net. More fish in the sea, ergo most are not going to churn you out caviar...and you'll get some solid tuna in there..and a whole list of others are not fit for consumption. PERIOD.

It's not my fault if the 60's, 70's, 80's international players...that 99% of them...WERE BUSTS. I think TOO damned much is being made of these more modern imports coming into the NBA. The numbers are against them as far as failure. For me it comes down to total percentage...

Let's say for the sake of argument since 1946..till now...you had 100 international players. Let's say 20% become sure enough superstars. Well that's a failure rate of 80%.

Now let's take American players..since 46...Let's say you had just 1,000 players drafted. And out of this 30 Hall of Famers....and 200 solid role players..that played atleast 6 seasons...thats 23% with a failure rate of 77%.

Sure you can make the case that it took 900 more players to gain 3% more....versus international players..however...to be equal you have to wait till another 900 players from the international community were drafted...and then compare the ultimate rate. 1000 per 1000.

I don't like international players for the most part, most of them either don't want to play in the US, and alot of them are more suspect because the volume of information on them..is not broadcast as it should be, and sometimes it is concealed.

The modern euro's grew up having witnessed the 92 dream team and the globalization of the game... so they were better equiped to handle things across the pond... I get your volume argument... but I think an accurate comparison can only be made through comparing ratios... sabonis was the best player on the planet in his heyday... and was a top 15 center in his late 30s... petrovic lit it up before that... you had schremph and kukoc... marcellonis... there were sprinkings of successful international players before 2002... but THOSE guys were the exception... now they have influenced the dirks, nashs and ginoblis... who have influenced the parkers, bargnianis and gallinaris...

Get your thoughts together and them place them in a concise manner with a valid point.

Are you talking about race in general? Or basketball? Are you confusing nationalism, with racism?

As far as race goes...say what you will but statistics bare out blacks are ahead of other athletes as far as skill, and I'm only measuring this as far as American sports are concerned. It is factual African Americans many of them come from ex-slaves, who were bred to be big..strong..fast, durable. It's why the frequency is higher...now that may not be race specific, so much as it is genetically specific. But it is what it is...alot of it is also environment I'd concede that notion.

More blacks play basketball, run track, play football etc.

Just as you have hispanics dominating baseball. They play more baseball now, whereas blacks do not as they did in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

Whites dominate hockey, why because more of them play it..I don't see too many asian or hispanic hockey players.

Now getting specifically back to American basketball, far as I'm concerned it's our sport as Americans, and yes to a degree as blacks (a small one).

I remember back in the 80's KNICKS had an all black roster. And when they would lose people would call them the "*****RBOCKERS". Maybe you don't remember that...but I do. Alot of people on here act as if race don't matter, and is completely non- essential to MARKETING anymore. Which shows a complete lack of reality. Marketing is all about not only success, but image. And many of success is predicated from image.

And it's not just sports. Alot of companies have black managers, CEO's, top executives. How many times do they advertise that fact as consistently as they show a white face, or the latin craze which they seem to be going through now...why?

Because since latino's are becoming more major players...they want to advertise more exclusively to that market. PERIOD. More latino's, show a latino face, get MORE latino dollars.

For the moment whites still are the majority. But as more and more races influx the advertising landscape will change, so to does that influence decision making when it comes to pitching product. Sure you can have a winning team full of guys with attitude problems...but you also are in bed with advertisers to pull in more revenue streams from their products in your building..so maybe you don't take a chance on a guy with a ton of off the court problems. Or rather his draft stock plummets. It happens.

So don't come at me with the only talent matters argument, because it's bull****. And incomplete.

Look at Sheryl Swoopes...had a nice chunk of endorsements...and she's still playing...soon as she came out the closet...no one would touch her. What does her being gay have to do with her selling sneakers, or lady schik? Nothing logically. But it does, why? Image of homosexuality. Society.

You speak the truth... marketing is a powerful tool... and David Stern has made it his (poorly hidden) edict to clean up the league... the owners are MOSTLY white... the season ticket holders are MOSTLY white... the sponsors, advertisers, etc... you get the drift... when Iverson came in... the league demographics skewed toward the urban youth in the post Jordan era... but ratings plummeted... check the facts... after Bulls/Jazz (98)... the NBA saw plummeting ratings every season until this year... in that span... Stern has implemented the age limit... the dress code... authorizing refs to T up players for showing emotions (that thankfully ended after a few months)... all aimed at appeasing the people writing the checks...

Welsch was well on his way to become a first class role player in Boston until he got homesick. It might make him a bust but doesn't say the least about his talent.

Not once did one of the greatest players ever to play the game come up in this discussion: Drazan Petrovic ([Only registered and activated users can see links. ]).

Petro was a true tragedy... I think if he survived... the Nets/Knicks rivalry would have been a lot more exciting in the 90s... and Euros would be better appreciated here...

Listein moron Im not politicly correct and to be honest I dont really give a **** about racism because I have been succesful in life so it dont effect me anyway in my world the only thing that matters is money it dont matter if I make it with a black guy a white guy whatever, Its the little people like you who dont have any and the easy way to explain your shortcommings is the race card.So you keep pulling out your long drawn out stats that have no bearing in life and these things you keep talking about are not gonna get you anything but laughed at.Honestly I just cant stop laughing at the **** you write you really are a CLOWN.So please stop wasting your time with me einstein this is a basketball site.But you still dont answer the question with all your stats why is it that all quarterbacks,pitchers,managers,owners,etc are white so does that make us more intelligent because if your gonna go bye statistics that would make sense right?THATS HOW ****ING IDIOTIC YOU SOUND.You are only giving your race credit for being well bread athletes I know black guys that would smack the **** out of you for what your saying.

you're a moron... knicksfanz was wrong about the international players thing... but you really should really open a textbook before you start typing with astericks and caps...

there are more white owners because many old american families (who have the wealth to own sporting franchises) built their fortunes using free labor or profiting from free labor... therefore... white people have been able to capitalize on the american dream for longer than any other ethnic group... means more of them have funds to buy teams... is your point that white people dominate the ownership landscape because of some genetic superiority? Hitler thought the same thing...

managers are hired by owners... for many years they didn't even interview black managers... but now... just like jackie robinson led to more black players coming into the league... you see there are far more minority managers now than there were when we were growing up (80s/90s)...

quarterbacks are mostly white because it is a "thinking man's position"... so many coaches encourage young black players to accept the more athletic positions so they can the game that way... like with managers... people didn't believe black qbs were smart enough... but look at the last few drafts... jamarcus russel... vince young... that's ignoring cats like McNabb and homie in Jacksonville and Campbell in WAS that are currently doing it up... seriously... you think there are black quarterbacks worse than rex grossman...

pitchers? i'm not big into baseball... but I do know that african americans are largely abandoning the sport... because the youth are trying out for football and basketball moreso than the great american pasttime... so i'm hypothesising that has something to do with it...

and before you get into your "you're broke so you blame everything on race"... know that yes... I am black... yes... I am successful... I enjoy a lot of the benefits of being an american citizen and love this country (but am extremely critical of it)... so know that none of this comes from anger...

don't try to **** on the man for making a valid point about race and racism just because you don't agree with his views about international players...

[KnicksFan4Realz]

I want to thank those who actually read my posts and understood the point I was making about race and sports...and the taking of international players also has an marketing tinge to it...that at times appears to go further beyond the question of talent, whether people like to admit the league is getting whiter for a reason to a degree that has nothing to do with the game itself, but the marketing of it.

Also as well...genetics..the "phenotypic advantage"...I've proved my points.

[metrocard]

You need to read my post over again.

The players I listed were bust, feel free to big an arguement to that with facts, if you can't then just agree they were. I'm not considering a damn thing, its a fact accepted by the majority of NBA fans.

You need to look at the lottery, late first round picks are projected to be bench players in the future, where as lottery picks are the most elite players in the draft class. I gather mostly of the elite players from each draft starting from 1998 and proved the ratio of draft bust from America is higher than the ratio of International bust. If you couldn't figure that out then you really need to work on your reading skills.

We were discussing draft lottery, not the entire first round.

[ShairanXIII]

the problem with that scenario and projections is that since the whole bust/success scenario is based on who else was available in the draft at that position means that regardless of where a player is taken... they have the potential to become great... does that mean that someone taken in the late first round can't be a bust? if they never make a roster or play less than the 5 year league average, they are a failed investment...

if you look at just the lottery... outside of 2002... there were less international players taken in the lottery, so your argument is weakened... going back to '98... oh and if we're talking lottery... it's the first 13 picks (now 14) since the lottery is only the teams who missed the playoffs...

i find it ironic that you say lottery... then talk about guys like peja (#16) and nash (#14)... ahhh well kiddo... guess i'm gonna have to set you straight again...

98:
#9 Dirk Nowitzki - superstar bust... taken ahead of paul pierce who actually lead his team in the finals... shutting down kobe and knocking down shots... dirk made a finals too... and blew a 2 - 0 lead... so far your premise is becoming weaker my son...

99:
#12 Aleksandar Radojević - HAHAHHAHAHA

00:
#11 Jermaine Moiso - HAHAHAHAHAHA

01:
#3 Pau Gasol - best player available at the spot... even though joe johnson, parker and arenas were available...

#8 Dasagana Diop - are you serious? this guy was drafted ahead of tony parker and gilbert arenas? HAHAHAHA

#12 Vlad Radmanovic - see above...

02:
#1 Yao Ming - let's see... foot injuries... soft... hasn't gotten out of the first round... Amare was out there... BUT... still the second best big man in the game... so an almost bust...

#5 Skita - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

#7 Nene - injuries... and being drafted ahead of caron butler and amare stoudamire spell BUST...

03:
#2 Darko - HAHAHAHAHA

#6 Kaman - Top 10 center

#11 Pietrus - ahead of david west and josh howard... HAHAHAHAHA

using any draft later than 03 would be unethical... since guys have yet to show if they can last...

using your own criteria (lottery) only 3 of the 11 international players were not busts... that's a 28% success rate if you only include the lotto... and you also exclude many of the better international players... your parkers, diaws, barbosas, etc...

if you're panties are tight cuz i called dirk a bust consider this... do you think DAL woulda lost being up 2 - 0 with P double instead of dirk... you see how he didn't let boston die... Yao may end up being a bust depending on what Amare does (yeah he missed one year, now look at him)... so the percentage drops...

greatest sig ever btw... but i see why i couldn't leave the site alone... the forums needs me...

[metrocard]

There isn't a problem.
It is what it is.
Lottery picks are lottery picks.
This is the topic of discussion.

A bust is someone who is drafted high and doesn't reach expectations. If you don't know the definition of bust then just go to bed. How could you be a 2nd round and first round bust? Most bust are labeled from the 1-10 range.

ShairanXIII, I brought up Peja for a reason, you have READING PROBLEMS if you don't know why I brought him up.

Your assignment today is to reread my post and taking the knowledge I presented and learn it. Its good notes for you.

Dirk is a superstar bust?
Terrible assessment.

How many MVP players are picked at 9?

Paul Piece didn't lead nothing
Who was Pierce before KG and Allen?
Celtics Championship was a team effort.
Not a Pierce effort.
Dirk took his team deep into the Finals and got screwed by the refs (as most NBA fans would look at it).
Dirk has kept the Mavericks competitive the last decade. Mavericks are always on top of the west or with the elites throughout this decade and Dirk has been their best player all those years.
Dirk > Pierce.

Jermone Moiso is a NCAA player, he never played International Ball in his life.
HAHAHAHHAHAHAH @ you for being ignorant.

Diop played in American High School. Never played international ball.

1998(LOL majority bust)
Michael Olowokandi (One of the most legendary bust in NBA history)
Raef LaFrentz (No explanation needed)
Robert Traylor (Is he in the NBA?)
Jason Williams (never lived up to his talent)
Bonzi Wells (average career)
Micheal Doleac (3rd string player)
Keon Clark (Is he in the NBA?)
Michael Dickerson (Is he in the NBA?)
Bryce Drew (Is he in the NBA?)

1999(Good draft, Ginobili happened to be the best player from this draft and went number 58)
Jonathan Bender (a complete flop)
William Avery (Not even in the league)
Trajan Langdon (Couldn't survive in the NBA)

2000(LMAO wow)
Stromile Swift (3rd string player)
Darius Miles (Total bust)
Demarr Johnson (In the NBA??? answer me Shardy)
Marcus Fizer (In the NBA??? answer me Shardy)
Chris Mihm (3rd string player)
Jamal Crawford (Has never made the playoffs, biggest loser in the NBA(worst wining perctange)
Joel Przybilla (3rd string player)
Keyon Dooling (3rd string player)
Courtney Alexander (In the NBA??? answer me Shardy)
Etan Thomas
Mateen Cleaves (In the NBA??? answer me Shardy)
Jason Collier (Died, but was garbage regardless)

2001(LMAO Gasol happened to be the best player from this draft)
Kwame Brown (a bigger bust than Nikoloz)
Eddy Curry (One of the biggest bust in the NBA history behind Brown)
Shane Battier(Role players aren't drafted at 6, 10 and 4 for his career)
Eddie Griffin (LOL, no comment)
Rodney White(LMAO, he's playing in Puerto Rico now)
Kedrick Brown (In the NBA??? answer me Shardy)
Steven Hunter (One of the biggest stiffs in the NBA)
Kirk Haston (In the NBA??? answer me Shardy)
Jason Collins (In the NBA??? answer me Shardy)
Michael Bradley (In the NBA??? answer me Shardy)
Joseph Forte (In the NBA??? answer me Shardy)

2002(Yao, yet another INT'L best player from the draft)
Jay Williams (out of the NBA)
Dajuan Wagner (out of the NBA)
Melvin Ely (Ass)
Chris Wilcox (Not lottery material)
Our very own, Jared Jeffries (you already know how bad he is)
Marcus Haislip (out of the NBA)
Fred Jones (scrub)

I didn't list Dunleavy or Gooden, but they didn't turn out to be anything special for number 3 and 4 picks.

non lottery
Juan Dixon (successful college player, terrible NBA player)
Curtis Borchardt (LOL??? in the NBA??? Answer me Shardy)
Casey Jacobson (LOL??? Do you even know where this guy is playing? I wouldn't bet you know a damn thing about Euroleague)
Ryan Humphrey (Haha, seriously, this list of bust doesn't end)
Kareem Rush (Is he in the NBA right now?)

2003 was one of the greatest drafts in NBA history.
Sweetney though.
T.J. Ford didn't live up to hype, got traded 3 times already.
Hinrich is average.
Jarvis Hayes?
Marcus Banks is a scrub
Collinson is average
Troy Bell and Reece Gaines aren't even in the NBA.

2004
Emeka Okafor(didn't live up to potential for # 2 pick)
Shaun Livingston (A complete bust, injury prone, non athletic 6"7 guard with no jumpshot, very weak and fragile body)
Devin Harris (Wasn't worth the 5th pick, solid starter)
Josh Childress (Back up)
Luke Jackson (Is he even in the NBA???)
Robert Swift (LOL???)
Kris Humphries (LOL???)
Sebestain Telfair(sorry, he's one of my favorites but was another USA lottery bust)

2005
Marvin Williams (Raw, hasn't produced yet)
Martell Webster (Raw)
Charlie V (Still raw, looking to be replaced)
Channing Frye (Traded, career back up)
Ike Diougu (Got traded 3 teams already, 3rd string player)
Sean May (bench player)
Rashad McCants (Bench player)
Antoine Wright (Trash)
Joey Graham (Trash)
Gerald Green (Got waived by like 3 teams already, still summer league player)
Julius Hodge (career 1 ppg scorer)

2006
Adam Morrison (Has been awful)
Tyrus Thomas (Still raw coming into his 3rd year)
Shelden Williams (Already has been traded, projected to be a career back up)
Patrick O'Bryant (Still a summerleague player)
J.J. Redick (Gets no minute, no potential in the NBA)
Hilton Armstrong (Hasn't done ****)
Cedric Simmons (hasn't done ****)
Shawne Williams (hasn't done ****)


ITS A WRAP


I got over 70 BUST since 1998 in mostly the lottery.
You have nothing compared to that.

You named like what?
5-6 players?

You lost.

It already has been stated there are more American players in the draft than Int'l.
Obviously.

But it doesn't contradict the facts I pointed out.

This site was actually better without you, don't gas yourself up. You got noticed off of my name and replying to my post. Most of the people on this site don't even remember you. You're only good for making me look right all the time.

[jimenezz7]

Um... you listed like 10 players from each draft that you considered busts... it's hard to agree with your point without looking at the entire draft class or first round (like I did)... I picked 2000 (worse draft of American talent)... 2002 (first draft dominated by international prospects)... and 2003 (best american draft since 96)... You see metro... when you're trying to prove a point with longitudinal data... you need to either have the entire sample... or take three representative samples... I picked varying levels of international/american dominance... and my point is this... in every draft... about 25 players are any good... if you break it down into ratios and percentages... you find that about 40% of each group ever pans out... now if you can prove that that was irrelevant or something anyone can do... disprove my point...



The modern euro's grew up having witnessed the 92 dream team and the globalization of the game... so they were better equiped to handle things across the pond... I get your volume argument... but I think an accurate comparison can only be made through comparing ratios... sabonis was the best player on the planet in his heyday... and was a top 15 center in his late 30s... petrovic lit it up before that... you had schremph and kukoc... marcellonis... there were sprinkings of successful international players before 2002... but THOSE guys were the exception... now they have influenced the dirks, nashs and ginoblis... who have influenced the parkers, bargnianis and gallinaris...



You speak the truth... marketing is a powerful tool... and David Stern has made it his (poorly hidden) edict to clean up the league... the owners are MOSTLY white... the season ticket holders are MOSTLY white... the sponsors, advertisers, etc... you get the drift... when Iverson came in... the league demographics skewed toward the urban youth in the post Jordan era... but ratings plummeted... check the facts... after Bulls/Jazz (98)... the NBA saw plummeting ratings every season until this year... in that span... Stern has implemented the age limit... the dress code... authorizing refs to T up players for showing emotions (that thankfully ended after a few months)... all aimed at appeasing the people writing the checks...



Petro was a true tragedy... I think if he survived... the Nets/Knicks rivalry would have been a lot more exciting in the 90s... and Euros would be better appreciated here...



you're a moron... knicksfanz was wrong about the international players thing... but you really should really open a textbook before you start typing with astericks and caps...

there are more white owners because many old american families (who have the wealth to own sporting franchises) built their fortunes using free labor or profiting from free labor... therefore... white people have been able to capitalize on the american dream for longer than any other ethnic group... means more of them have funds to buy teams... is your point that white people dominate the ownership landscape because of some genetic superiority? Hitler thought the same thing...

managers are hired by owners... for many years they didn't even interview black managers... but now... just like jackie robinson led to more black players coming into the league... you see there are far more minority managers now than there were when we were growing up (80s/90s)...

quarterbacks are mostly white because it is a "thinking man's position"... so many coaches encourage young black players to accept the more athletic positions so they can the game that way... like with managers... people didn't believe black qbs were smart enough... but look at the last few drafts... jamarcus russel... vince young... that's ignoring cats like McNabb and homie in Jacksonville and Campbell in WAS that are currently doing it up... seriously... you think there are black quarterbacks worse than rex grossman...

pitchers? i'm not big into baseball... but I do know that african americans are largely abandoning the sport... because the youth are trying out for football and basketball moreso than the great american pasttime... so i'm hypothesising that has something to do with it...

and before you get into your "you're broke so you blame everything on race"... know that yes... I am black... yes... I am successful... I enjoy a lot of the benefits of being an american citizen and love this country (but am extremely critical of it)... so know that none of this comes from anger...

don't try to **** on the man for making a valid point about race and racism just because you don't agree with his views about international players...

I dont know who is more ignorant now you or your girl,You say marketing is David sterns tool to clean up the league because most of the people who spend money for the league are white,So explain whats wrong with that money is what keeps the league going and if white people are the ones supporting and investing in the product of course thats who you go after that is common buisness practice and its the first thing you study and research to find out where the influx of money for your buisness is coming from and go after it hard and to be honest I am a season ticket holder for 16 years so I guess your right about something,So explain to me your point does that make David Stern a racist or just a very smart buisness man because ever since he has been in charge the league has done nothing except grow and prosper.Then you call me a moron for going after your little girlfriend just so you know and not that I have to explain myself to you because your not in my league I went after that kid because he put down my race for no other reason than just being upset he wasnt born Italian it had nothing to do with International players so do your homework before you open your mouth maybe you have some other interest in him I dont know what your deal is but next time mind your buisness unless you know what your talking about it makes you out to be ignorant and I dont need to open any text books I can just open my bank book to know the difference between the two of us.Now you want to bring up history and say that succesful white families made there money from free labor some did but do you think that blacks were the only ones that suffered from it get over it every race has suffered overcome it and moved on but then you get the clowns who blame all there problems on history its called history because thats what it is in the past there are three things you should learn adapt overcome and prosper thats what makes a man succesful learning from generations prior and not making the same mistakes.Now you say blacks are supperior athletes because of genetics but thats ok I say it and you call me hitler stop contradicting your self dont make statements out of convience but when its thrown back at you all you can do is pull out the race card once again you come off as being ignorant.Now you bring up quarterbacks you bring up 5 black quarterbacks and Rex Groosman what about the hundreds that have dominated the league since its beggining once again out of convience you forgot about them,And than you blame it on the white coaches did you ever play football because every team throughout your life untill college I would say the quarteback is 50% black then when it comes to college and the pros the best man plays it dont matter what color you are because now your in the buisnees end of the sport if you win keep boosters happy you play,Nobody cares about color they care about money.You and your friend fall to see the big picture it is not about color its about being qualified and winning thats all that matters,My point is this racisim only applies to ignorant people weather they are black or white and statistics can be misleading you want me to accept that blacks are supperior athletes because of some stat that you feel is important I dont accept that and you say is fact what if I said that the whole prison population is dominated bye blacks and that is a fact statisticly so what does that mean all blacks are criminals?So as a Black man who seems very proud of his race would you accept that or would you argue that fact,But you call me a moron for defending my race because some little kid opened his mouth about Italians find out who your defending before you get involved in things and find out what the reasons for the arguments are and then if you feel you still want to get involved feel free.

[jimenezz7]

I want to thank those who actually read my posts and understood the point I was making about race and sports...and the taking of international players also has an marketing tinge to it...that at times appears to go further beyond the question of talent, whether people like to admit the league is getting whiter for a reason to a degree that has nothing to do with the game itself, but the marketing of it.

Also as well...genetics..the "phenotypic advantage"...I've proved my points.

Your still a clown and anybody that can take you seriously with that picture in your profile is a clown too,I hear there is an opening in a car wash down the block from your trailer go do something with your life,Genetics does that explain why your a moron?

[TunerAddict]

I dont know who is more ignorant now you or your girl,You say marketing is David sterns tool to clean up the league because most of the people who spend money for the league are white,So explain whats wrong with that money is what keeps the league going and if white people are the ones supporting and investing in the product of course thats who you go after that is common buisness practice and its the first thing you study and research to find out where the influx of money for your buisness is coming from and go after it hard and to be honest I am a season ticket holder for 16 years so I guess your right about something,So explain to me your point does that make David Stern a racist or just a very smart buisness man because ever since he has been in charge the league has done nothing except grow and prosper.Then you call me a moron for going after your little girlfriend just so you know and not that I have to explain myself to you because your not in my league I went after that kid because he put down my race for no other reason than just being upset he wasnt born Italian it had nothing to do with International players so do your homework before you open your mouth maybe you have some other interest in him I dont know what your deal is but next time mind your buisness unless you know what your talking about it makes you out to be ignorant and I dont need to open any text books I can just open my bank book to know the difference between the two of us.Now you want to bring up history and say that succesful white families made there money from free labor some did but do you think that blacks were the only ones that suffered from it get over it every race has suffered overcome it and moved on but then you get the clowns who blame all there problems on history its called history because thats what it is in the past there are three things you should learn adapt overcome and prosper thats what makes a man succesful learning from generations prior and not making the same mistakes.Now you say blacks are supperior athletes because of genetics but thats ok I say it and you call me hitler stop contradicting your self dont make statements out of convience but when its thrown back at you all you can do is pull out the race card once again you come off as being ignorant.Now you bring up quarterbacks you bring up 5 black quarterbacks and Rex Groosman what about the hundreds that have dominated the league since its beggining once again out of convience you forgot about them,And than you blame it on the white coaches did you ever play football because every team throughout your life untill college I would say the quarteback is 50% black then when it comes to college and the pros the best man plays it dont matter what color you are because now your in the buisnees end of the sport if you win keep boosters happy you play,Nobody cares about color they care about money.You and your friend fall to see the big picture it is not about color its about being qualified and winning thats all that matters,My point is this racisim only applies to ignorant people weather they are black or white and statistics can be misleading you want me to accept that blacks are supperior athletes because of some stat that you feel is important I dont accept that and you say is fact what if I said that the whole prison population is dominated bye blacks and that is a fact statisticly so what does that mean all blacks are criminals?So as a Black man who seems very proud of his race would you accept that or would you argue that fact,But you call me a moron for defending my race because some little kid opened his mouth about Italians find out who your defending before you get involved in things and find out what the reasons for the arguments are and then if you feel you still want to get involved feel free.

But if you're a white spectator, is it ok to see all black players? You feel left out. I.E. thats why David Lee is the most loved Knick. Hes white.

[datruth]

But if you're a white spectator, is it ok to see all black players? You feel left out. I.E. thats why David Lee is the most loved Knick. Hes white.

dats a very ignorant post, being white isnt the reason knicks fan love em(maybe to a few) but it has to do wit him playing hard every minute of the game