co-sign with jimenezz
My point was already proven.
The discussion was lottery picks.
If you don't know how to read thats not my problem.
Yeh, you should really specify and reread post, it'll help your replies.
KG/Allen > Nash/Finley; don't be so foolish.
Pierce has never came close to winning the MVP in the NBA, Dirk has won it, the most ultimate individual award in the NBA. That makes him the better player and the better talent.
Pierce didn't bring Celtics to an elite level till KG and Allen came to town. No one doubting his talent, so you pointed out his accomplishments are irrelevant. Everyone knows those accomplishments, you're not making much of a point.
KG was the best Celtic at all times. Pierce didn't make the defensive impact KG did, plus KG was really the offense with his ability to create in the half court, one of the best big men passers in NBA history.
Pierce before KG made the Celtics offense very stagnant, remember the days of PP/Walker? Almost as bad as Crawford/Randolph
Point is, you're overrating Pierce A LOT. KG > Pierce.
Theres a lot of guys in the NBA comparable to Piece, theres like 2-3 guys who compare to KG and they're all NBA first team players/MVPs
I'd take Dirk over Pierce 10 times out of 10
Free Throw attempts, Dirk had PP beat this season
7.1 vs 6.4
PP for career has 1 more free throw attemtp on average than Dirk, not much of a difference.
Dirk is more efficient.
on 1.9 turnovers for his career
Winning a championship is a team effort, not an individual effort.
oh... and in 06... Nash had already won his TWO mvps... making him the first point guard since magic to receive the award... and Finley defeated with SA...
so your equation would be:
Howard/Harris/Terry/Dampier < Garnet/Allen/Rondo/Perkins
but what about the opponents? was MIA 06 better than LA 08?
Wade/Shaq/Walker/Jason Will/Haslem < Kobe/Gasol/Odom/Fisher
So Boston was a better team that beat a better team... DAL was a worse team that lost to a worse team... Dallas broke up their big 3 and kept Dirk as the cornerstone... he won the MVP and lost in the first round...
I brought up Pierce's accomplishments cuz you said he accomplished nothing before Allen/Garnet...
Dirk is a rare talent... a 7 footer with a handle... 3 point shot... post game... not too many of those in the league (and until gallo or bargniani prove otherwise, the only one)... but PP though less rare is still a top 3 SF... 1. LeBron 2/3 Pierce/Artest (depending on if Ronny has his head on straight)... so there is no disputing either guys' talent...
but when both players got to the finals... with both teams up in their series... pierce played Kobe to a standstill (he had more defensive help so was better able to contain KB24 and NOBODY on LA could guard him)... Dirk was stymied by the refs and Udonis Haslem...
pierce/walker made it to the eastern conference finals and eastern semis before being knocked out by Jersey... Crawford/Randolph made it to... the lottery... don't shyte on PP and Walker's earlier work...
by your mvp argument, Nash was the best player and talent in the 1996 draft (the year of Kobe, AI, Allen, Marbury, Camby, etc), since he has the most of anyone from his draft class... I will say this again... the regular season MVP is no indicator of talent... it just marks which players sportswriters thought deserved it that year... doesn't make it legit...
PP competitiveness and killer instinct would make me pick him ahead of dirk 10 out of 10 times... I would want a guy on my team that I know won't let us lose if we get to that spot... I know you need guys who can dominate long enough to get us to that spot... but when a championship team is depending on you to be its leader... just being the most dominant regular season athlete isn't good enough for me...
the only reason i brought up this argument to begin with was because we didn't have a clear definition of what a bust was... we can agree that some guys are busts based on what we've seen or know... but if we're not all using the same criteria... then nothing keeps me from saying that Dirk is a bust because he didn't win with his team up 2-0... and while I mostly agree with you... without establishing a criteria... then we're left arguing opinions... you'll respond with...
"I brought facts and research... all you brought were opinions... re-read..."
to whit: Did your free throw attempts stat factor in that PP took less shots this year than normal?
It's not surprising that a 7' is averaging more rebounds than someone 6'7
Where are assists, steals and blocks for pierce?
It's useless mentioning turnovers, since you either need to give the assist/turnover ratio or some other evidence to validate the stat... PF handle the rock less than SFs... Nash/Finley > Walker/Kenny Andersen...
44% FG and 36% three point percentage are very effecient numbers... and a 2 or 3% difference isn't a great increase in productivity...
would you rather have Dirk or this guy:
Rebs 6.9; Steals 1.8; Blocks 0.8; TO 3.32; PTS 27.3; FG 47%; 3PT 32%
WoW dirk averages more rebounds, less turnovers, a higher 3pt percentage... point being... it's harder to compare players across positions by stats... if PP were a PF your rebounding, blocks, steals, assists and turnover stats would be valid... but he isn't... and there are statistical differences between the two groups that have more to do with position than talent...
Nash wasn't playing like an MVP and barely All Star level under Dallas. Him winning MVP's is irrelevant to what he did in Dallas. We're talking about Nash with Dallas, don't make yourself look foolish.
the 06 Heat were a very good team. Wade and Shaq has great chemistry.
Dirk won MVP and lead his team to over 60 games. **** the first round. Winning over 60 games in the regular season and being the best player on that team is a very elite task and you have incredibly ignorant to deny that.
Nash in his prime played the PG position as good anyone in NBA history.
His career though isn't that great to be compared to Kobe or Iverson.
You're right about PP/Walker, my bad. Good job on the research.
Carmelo > Pierce
Pierce is on the same level as Butler, Richard Jefferson , and T'Mac.
Dirk stands with a more elite class of PF's.
Like I said, Finals is a team effort, not an individual effort. You're holding on to that way too much now. What would be your arguement before the Finals this year?
If you knew anything about rebounding, standing height isn't the only factor in rebounding. Dirk being 5 inches taller than Pierce isn't the biggest factor. Dirk is a better rebounder because he has better rebounding skills period. He's not a banger, but he goes for a lot of defensive rebounder's. He'[s a GOOD rebounder period. Pierce is average. 5-6 rebs is pretty average for a SF, so this rebounding convo is over.
Stop sucking Pierce off now, he wasn't the best player on Boston and had an excellent supporting cast. You need a great team to make it and win all in the Finals. Kobe was the best player in the Finals, did his team win? No.
Dirk would be rated higher than Pierce in everything. NBA rankings, Yahoo rankings, ESPN rankings, Fantasy rankings, Metrocard's rankings, NBA 2k8 rankings.
Its just a fact everyone in this planet except you has accepted for a long ass time. Dirk > Pierce. Pierce winning a chip on an elite team doesn't change a damn thing at all.
CBS has Dirk #8 Pierce is #26
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Yahoo Fantasy has Dirk #6, Pierce is #24
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Dirk is 5th in the NBA in PER, Pierce is 33rd
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Dirk was rated 95 in NBA 2k8
Pierce was rated 91
Do you see the trend?
Dirk is just on another level Pierce will never be on his career. Dirk has played to level where he has been considered a top 3-5 player and won MVP one season where Pierce has been hanging around the top 15-30 range most of his career.
44% FG isn't effective FG shooting, its average. 36% 3pt is nothing great either, good, but nothing great.
Pierce does all this on 3.1 turnovers a game.
Dirk doesn't even average 2 turnovers a game and can average more points, shoot higher percentages from everywhere in the court. That makes Dirk the more efficient offensive player.
Eh, I don't know what more I can see really. I think I made enough points for you to understand that Dirk > Pierce, simply.
if you trade pierce and kobe the celtics woulda swept the lakers
[I hate garnett]If you trade garnett and duncan the celtics woulda swept the lakers[/I hate garnett]
Lets not forget, mavericks might have won in 06 if josh howard didnt pull a chris webber and call a timeout when the mavs didnt have any. At that point dallas was up 2-0 in the series...miami won the 3rd game and went on to win the next 3, and the championship. It was josh howard who choked, not dirk.
2007- i think most of the blame has to go to avery johnson for resting his players too much at the end of the season. I gotta give credit to the warriors for showin alotta heart and pullin off one of the greatest upsets in basketball history...and i will say that dirk didnt play as physical as i would have liked to see him play but the mavericks were off from avery resting the starters too much at the end of the season.
The mvp has to do with who the best player is during the season. The mavericks won around 65 games and dirk was the best player on the team. I dont think dirk has ever been the best player in the nba or even top 5 but thats the logic the voters chose...best player on the best team. I dont like lebron but i think the way he always plays...he might arguably be the best all around player in the league. I thought it was kobe and i still think hes the most talented (with chris paul right behind him) but i didnt like the way he played in the finals. I thought his attitude was poor and he took too many jumpshots.
this year the mavericks got burned by chris paul. They had no one who could stop him. Jason kidd is too old and slow. Mavs should have not made that trade. Mark Cuban lost
dirks stats vs hornets>>dirks stats during season
He does step his game up in the playoffs
And josh howard opened his mouth about smokin trees in the off season. That sh!t ****ed up the whole team. I cant remember some of the other sh!t that happened but i remember the mavs having alotta problems not only on the court but off the court in the 1st round. I remember something happening at one of their practices...not sure exactly what it was. Something bad happened...maybe some of the players didnt show up or something.
To conclude everything i think dirk is underrated by the fans but overrated by analysts and mvp voters...overall i consider him underrated. Most fans i talk to dont like him. You gotta respect his ability to score...his passion for the game. Hes stepped up his effort on defense over the last couple of years...he battles for those rebounds. Hes far from being soft like he used to be but hes not the toughest guy at the same time. If he was he wouldve brought it hard to the warriors down low no homo.
Is dirk better the pierce? Its very close in my opinion....i felt like pierce was the best player in the finals. Garnett played big in the last game but that was a blowout so i can only give him a limited amount of credit for that. He shoulda dominated and sh!tted all over the lakers. He only shot 40% through the first 5 games. Thats something tim duncan would never do. Pierce played big but it wasnt all pierce...posey, allen, rondo, powe, the whole team stepped up and i gotta say the celtics together played great as a team.
I think dirk is at least a better player during the season...during the playoffs its close but when dirk made it to the finals the he didnt have as much help as paul pierce did this year. And the mavs went through one of the greatest teams of my lifetime...the spurs...the toughest team the celtics played was the cavs. In 2007 the same spurs team that lost to the mavs swept the cavs in the finals.
Nowitzkis career averages
Nowitzkis career playoff averages
To me one of the biggest things is how a player steps his game up in the playoffs. When you see an increase from regular season to playoffs...thats one of the most important stats. Most of dirks playoff stats are better then his regular season stats. You dont see the same trend with Paul pierce
Pierces career averages
Pierces career playoff averages
With pierce you see the drop off in his shooting percentages and his points per game. Pierce does step up his rebounding and his passing in the playoffs. And his defense was real good. Overall i gotta say dirk is better. Dirk aint as good of an individual defender but hes a good team defender. His offense, rebounding, free throw shooting, and the mis-matches he creates makes him a better player. How many players are there that can do a good job of guarding dirk? I hate to give garnett credit but hes one of the few that can guard him down low and on the perimeter. I cant really think of anyone else right now.
Inter Players Own American Players!!
All Three Aren"t From Usa
Face It Americans Can't Match Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The American Basketball Needs To Move Over And Make Room!!!!
International Players Are Gonna Be Stars!
There Are Also Much Better Players Still In Euro!!