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Thread: Explaining Evolution And Why GOD is NOT LIKELY

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Actually, chimpanzees make choices based on free will too. They also experience happiness, sadness, jealousy, anger, are able to figure out problems and are self aware. They are incredibly intelligent creatures. You would be amazed at their level of intelligence.
    I would not be surprised actually, they seem pretty smart without much notice really. But still they are more instinct than free will.
    Do chimps posess the frontal lobe? Can they worship? Can they create? These things set us way apart from all animal life on earth.


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Is this really what you think evolution is? If so, then I totally understand why you don't believe it. In fact, that is the problem with most creationists. They don't know or don't understand. Genetics is a very complex science. The more knowledge I gained about genetics, the less I believed in God.
    I will not pretend to say I fully comprehend everything that it takes for one to believe in evolution, but from what I have read on it from what I percieve to be credible sources, it is being debated by even top notch scientists. Plus as I have said, I have done some reading on the fossil record that you cling too, and there is still no further proof in that. I'D REALLY LIKE YOU TO DISCUSS THE FOSSIL RECORD POST IN THE RELIGIOUS THREAD ON THE LAST PAGE I PUT UP. I cannot understand how you have not once addressed it, yet say I should believe in evolution based on it.

    I take your opinion seriously on this matter because it appears you have done extensive research on this. So please let me know what you think of that write up in that section.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    The same goes for astronomy. Both are very humbling sciences and really put the human race into perspective within the grand scheme of life and the universe. Thoroughly understanding these two sciences, along with understanding the concept of the passage of time can only make one doubt the bible and doubt the existence of a supreme being that cares for us.
    Well again, I can clearly see you have done your homework on this evolution stuff. But you are weighing it against largely a false concept of what the bible is really about. I don't blame that on you totally, but I have shown you quite a bit of bible truths compared to what you had already perceived you knew on certain subjects.

    That is why it will be a lot tougher for anyone to disprove the bible to me, than the avg Christian. Because myself and others who believe like myself see the bible strictly from God's point of view, and not out own, as many others like to do.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I haven't see signs of his presence anywhere. Sorry. You may look at a beautiful mountain and see God, I see the geological process that created it.
    Jesus is not God, and the sign of his presence has nothing to do with a mountain And if you read Mathew 24:4-14 and look around the world, you'd surely see the sign of his presence.

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    It always makes me shake my head when I hear a theist say that “God exists outside of time.” As if time is a bubble you can jump in and out of. Such monstrous nonsense! - Mainly because it is being claimed about a living being. (I will explain why shortly). Their claim is often coupled with their rhetorical question, “how can something come from nothing?” But this is a straw-man, to be sure, for whoever said it did?

    It was never claimed as a scientific theory that the universe came out of nothing. Time began at the Big Bang. Prior to that, nothing existed but energy and elementary particles. Since time had not yet existed, they are what existed “outside of time,” if anything ever did. Meaning, something always existed, and never nothing. Putting God in the picture merely complicates things, and it is quite unnecessary.

    Therefore, Occam’s razor is fulfilled by there not being a God. Furthermore, one only needs to observe the First Law of Thermodynamics as to clearly see why it is that there could have never been nothing, and that science in fact claims the contrary. For it states that – come on, everybody say it with me – “energy cannot be created nor destroyed.” Meaning, all the energy that currently exists in the universe has always existed, and no god was ever required to create it. That is, under this natural law: something has always existed – even prior to the Big Bang.

    But here is where the theist and even deist anxiously jump in. “But you have not disproved God,” they say, happily and proudly stating the obvious.

    No, of course I haven’t. I have only shown his/her/its existence to be improbable and superfluous. Disproving God, on the other hand - is what I am about to do.

    The main two aspects of the theistic God are that he has a mind, and was himself not created, as he is the beginning of all things. That is, he is both sentient and the Alpha. But a sentient being cannot be the alpha! All sentient beings have a first thought, a first feeling, a first perception. God would have had to of had a first thought, feeling, perception.

    There cannot be an infinite regress of these things. There cannot be an infinite regress of a stream of consciousness. It is a logical absurdity. God, like all sentient beings, would have had to of come into existence. He would have had to of evolved into existence, as all new species do, or he would have had to of been created by a being greater than he/she/it, which means he/she/it wouldn’t be God - in the first place.

    Therefore, though it is possible for a supreme being to exist, it is quite impossible – for God to. And let no one tell you that God cannot be disproved, or that he exists outside of time ever again. Especially since thinking, something God does partake in supposedly, occurs in time, and we have now seen the consequences of that, as there cannot be an infinite regress of thoughts.

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    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    It always makes me shake my head when I hear a theist say that “God exists outside of time.” As if time is a bubble you can jump in and out of. Such monstrous nonsense! - Mainly because it is being claimed about a living being. (I will explain why shortly). Their claim is often coupled with their rhetorical question, “how can something come from nothing?” But this is a straw-man, to be sure, for whoever said it did?

    It was never claimed as a scientific theory that the universe came out of nothing. Time began at the Big Bang. Prior to that, nothing existed but energy and elementary particles. Since time had not yet existed, they are what existed “outside of time,” if anything ever did. Meaning, something always existed, and never nothing. Putting God in the picture merely complicates things, and it is quite unnecessary.

    Therefore, Occam’s razor is fulfilled by there not being a God. Furthermore, one only needs to observe the First Law of Thermodynamics as to clearly see why it is that there could have never been nothing, and that science in fact claims the contrary. For it states that – come on, everybody say it with me – “energy cannot be created nor destroyed.” Meaning, all the energy that currently exists in the universe has always existed, and no god was ever required to create it. That is, under this natural law: something has always existed – even prior to the Big Bang.

    But here is where the theist and even deist anxiously jump in. “But you have not disproved God,” they say, happily and proudly stating the obvious.

    No, of course I haven’t. I have only shown his/her/its existence to be improbable and superfluous. Disproving God, on the other hand - is what I am about to do.

    The main two aspects of the theistic God are that he has a mind, and was himself not created, as he is the beginning of all things. That is, he is both sentient and the Alpha. But a sentient being cannot be the alpha! All sentient beings have a first thought, a first feeling, a first perception. God would have had to of had a first thought, feeling, perception.

    There cannot be an infinite regress of these things. There cannot be an infinite regress of a stream of consciousness. It is a logical absurdity. God, like all sentient beings, would have had to of come into existence. He would have had to of evolved into existence, as all new species do, or he would have had to of been created by a being greater than he/she/it, which means he/she/it wouldn’t be God - in the first place.

    Therefore, though it is possible for a supreme being to exist, it is quite impossible – for God to. And let no one tell you that God cannot be disproved, or that he exists outside of time ever again. Especially since thinking, something God does partake in supposedly, occurs in time, and we have now seen the consequences of that, as there cannot be an infinite regress of thoughts.

    It is illogical to us, yes even ABSURD because we all have a start. Some how Jehovah is different. He's never had one. And this much I know about him is, his word the Bible, when understood properly is the most profound truth on the planet.

    This conversation would be null and void if someone can just refute the bible, and prove evolution is a fact. But the very things you guys say makes it true, the people who live to study them say makes it not.

    There are things in the bible that are indisputable facts. Becuase of these and other reasons, many believe the bible is Gods word. This is not the case with evolution.

    You guys say Fossil record, I read on it, and some scientists say the fossil record lends truth to the bible more than the belief of evolution. If it were a fact, than none, I mean NONE could say that. Like who in the scientific world is saying the earth is square and flat? How many scientists are saying that? 0! WHY? BECAUSE IT'S A FACT THE EARTH IS ROUND! WHY ARE THEIR SCIENTISTS SAYING EVOLUTION IS A FARCE? BECAUSE IT DOES NOT ADD UP TO EVERY SINGLE SCIENTIST LIKE AN ACTUAL FACT WOULD HAVE TOO!

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    God told the first pair what would happen to them due to sin

    Gen 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

    Notice, no mention of returning to heaven, or going to a fiery place of torment.

    Some people believe that it's not the flesh that actuall goes to hell, but it's your immortal soul. God never actually gave Adam a soul within his body. Bible says he formed Adam from dust, and he breathed into the now formed man the breath of life, and then the man came to BE A LIVING SOUL.

    Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.
    That implies that all living humans on earth are actual souls, and not that he gave humans souls apart from their flesh.


    As imperfect humans we know we sin, and therefore we die. Lets just for argument sake say we do have a separate immortal soul. Can the soul inside an imperfect being not sin if its part of us? Then why would God punish us in the flesh for sinning, not the soul inside of us that has also adhered to the sinning the flesh has done? God said this once concerning souls

    ezekiel 18: 4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die. Answers.com says death means:death (dĕth)


    n.
    1. The act of dying; termination of life.
    2. The state of being dead.

    In order for your soul to burn in hell forever and you be consciously aware of it, you must in some way actually be alive. But Jehovah himself says the soul that sins it itself will die. So either death in the bible does not mean what death as we know it means to a lot of people, or clearly a lot of people have it all wrong when it comes to life after death, and it is just as God says, from dust you are, and dust you will return.

    But further scriptures on what happens after death..

    Ecclesiastes 9: 5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten

    and 10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol(She'ol is the Hebrew word for grave, but is also translated Hell in some bibles, but only in certain spots), the place to which you are going.


    And here in Psalms 146:
    3 Do not put YOUR trust in nobles,
    Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.
    4 His spirit ( translated from the hebrew word ru'ach, which means breath )goes out, he goes back to his ground;
    In that day his thoughts do perish.

    How can you burn in hell forever and know it, when the bible says that when you die your very thoughts perish? No knowledge nor wisdom?

    All of these scriptures seem to lead back to what God said would happen to Adam and Eve in Gen 2:19


    " For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
    So then, what Paul1355 was saying is incorrect. There is no hell. And the images of hell those people saw (fiery and hot) on their deathbeds were created in their heads. Which supports my theory. Thanks Knicks4life you helped my argument.

    So, essentially I'm good to go. Thanks. I'll continue living my life the way I have.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    So then, what Paul1355 was saying is incorrect. There is no hell. And the images of hell those people saw (fiery and hot) on their deathbeds were created in their heads. Which supports my theory. Thanks Knicks4life you helped my argument.

    So, essentially I'm good to go. Thanks. I'll continue living my life the way I have.
    Hell technically exists, but it's not a fiery place of torment like most believe.
    But you're not really good to go as you say. There is a prospect of being alive forever, vs dead forever that everyone still faces. You basically saying you're good to go, ignoring God is what can possibly be your permanent death (meaning no resurrection and possible life forever) Why would you want to be dead forever, when you can live forever?

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    I'D REALLY LIKE YOU TO DISCUSS THE FOSSIL RECORD POST IN THE RELIGIOUS THREAD ON THE LAST PAGE I PUT UP. I cannot understand how you have not once addressed it, yet say I should believe in evolution based on it.

    I take your opinion seriously on this matter because it appears you have done extensive research on this. So please let me know what you think of that write up in that section.
    I will. I haven't been back to that thread in a while. I promise I will read it and get back to you. Right now though, I must sign off for a while. My parents are coming into town to visit me. Give me a week or so and I will read it thoroughly and respond with my impressions.

    Overall, I have enjoyed these discussions. It has forced me to dig up information. Knowledge is power my friend.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Hell technically exists, but it's not a fiery place of torment like most believe.
    But you're not really good to go as you say. There is a prospect of being alive forever, vs dead forever that everyone still faces. You basically saying you're good to go, ignoring God is what can possibly be your permanent death (meaning no resurrection and possible life forever) Why would you want to be dead forever, when you can live forever?
    It doesn't bother me either way. Cheers.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    It doesn't bother me either way. Cheers.
    Well that is what the whole issue is. Who has the right to rule mankind. God gives us the truth. It is up to us to accept or reject truth.

    Cheers

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I will. I haven't been back to that thread in a while. I promise I will read it and get back to you. Right now though, I must sign off for a while. My parents are coming into town to visit me. Give me a week or so and I will read it thoroughly and respond with my impressions.

    Overall, I have enjoyed these discussions. It has forced me to dig up information. Knowledge is power my friend.
    And that is a fact! Knowledge is power! We agree

    Looking forward to seeing what you think on that. It's on the last page and it's the last post, so it will be easy to check. Lata

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    I thought of something today thinking about this thread.

    Lyfe, you make great arguement when you can post those prophecies and show their correlation to the history. Great proof, right?

    Wrong.

    I'm not saying that the Bible is wrong on these occurences. I'm supporting your notion that the book was indeed right.

    However, while these are evidence to the fact that the Bible has truth to it, they in no way serve as proof to any other parts to the bible. Alexander conquering some land as prophesied has NOTHING to do with Jesus being the son of God or any such thing. Because there are correct things in the Bible does not mean the book as a whole is infallible.

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    Default You're Right!

    Originally Posted by TunerAddict
    I thought of something today thinking about this thread.

    Lyfe, you make great arguement when you can post those prophecies and show their correlation to the history. Great proof, right?

    Wrong.

    I'm not saying that the Bible is wrong on these occurences. I'm supporting your notion that the book was indeed right.

    However, while these are evidence to the fact that the Bible has truth to it, they in no way serve as proof to any other parts to the bible. Alexander conquering some land as prophesied has NOTHING to do with Jesus being the son of God or any such thing. Because there are correct things in the Bible does not mean the book as a whole is infallible.
    Just because the book is right about one thing does not make it infallible. But if the bible can be right about something as intricate as the details to a world rulers life and demise and aftermath, would you not tend to at least give an ear to other things to see if in fact it is correct on other accounts?

    There are many things prophesied about in the bible concerning Jesus. He fulfilled all the things concerning those as well. I mean, even the Pharasees and Saducees who had the Hebrew scribes could not argue against the things Jesus did during his life.

    All I have ever said my whole time during any of these threads is that one would need to just have an open mind to be taught the true meaning of the bible to have a chance of understanding it. IF YOU DON'T DO THAT YOU NEVER WILL BECAUSE IT WILL ALL APPEAR TO BE A FAIRY TALE.

    It is easiest to get people who do not believe to look at the Bible in a different light if you can make them understand some of the truths in it. Like Prophecy and scientific facts that hold up even today. For instance, it seems minute when you think of it, but the bible stating the earth is a sphere that hangs on nothing begs to ask a simple question... How would those guys know this for sure? I told my brother once that the bible had such things and he did not believe me. That is because most people are not being properly taught to understand the bible, so most scoff. And who could blame them with the way most bible based religions go about their business of teaching?

    Take LJ4PTPLAY for instance. All his life he was made to understand that God puts people in an eternal torture chamber for sinning and ignoring his wishes, for what, a max 70-80 years of human life? AND THAT EVEN DEPENDS IF YOU HAD THE CHANCE OF KNOWING THE TRUTH! What if you were living somewhere where the bible was not prevalent? You were doomed, no way out. But God loves you!

    See from that angle, I can TOTALLY understand why people lack faith! Look at what is being taught! But you know who hates it the most? Jehovah himself. In fact, he blames false religion more than anything else to why mankind is in the state that it's in. That is why, very soon he is going to put into the hearts of the leaders of the world to abandon all forms of false religion. If you pay close attention... You could actually see it unfolding now. Mega Churches are losing their luster. Some forms of government are already outlawing certain religious groups. People in general basically ignore religion. Even people who claim to have a religious background!

    But I rambled on a bit. Sorry. I get what you're saying about the bible not being infallible, but because of all the prophecies that I understand about, along with historical, scientific and the basic laws and principles found in it, It leads me to believe that a higher source had to be hind this book. There is no way, 40 different writers from a span of over 1500 years of written human history could have been this harmonious and accurate. And most of them have never met each other..

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    Let's talk about this bible for a moment some are unfortunately behind enough to say is accurate. When it comes to the issue of prophecy it's far to convenient to say well someone wrote something 2000 years ago, and THEN WHEN its re-interpreted to FIT today's context call it a true propechy. Prophecies must be specific.

    Edgar Cayce would be a better example to use if you were going to use one. He was specific he gave specific names, dates, years, months, places..etc. He didn't plop down and just say generic things or in some kind of poetic prose code, like much of the Bible uses and people do till this day. Nostradamus wrote thousands of prophecies...how come no church is worshipping him today? How come his writings are not reveared as insight into the eyes of GOD..after all if you believe his works to be truth?

    The bible is a collection composing of 62 books not including the Apocrypha. Such a document can't ever be the inspired word of a GOD. For example, Nehemiah, calls for the preservation of racial purity by the prohibition of inter-racial marriages, while Ruth has for its heroine a Moabite woman who married a Jew. As another example, the book of Proverbs extols living the good life which it says is God's reward for righteous living while Ecclesiastes says life is meaningless and prosperity is accidental.

    The New Testament stands in an uneasy contrast with the Old. The Old Testament says that the Jews are the chosen people of God. This God may sometimes abandon them as a punishment for their unfaithfulness but the severance was always only temporary. Yet in the New Testament we are shown that the Jews are completely severed from God and are in fact responsible for the murder of his Son.

    The Bible is nothing more than a collection of stories crammed in from other cultures, that were given a glossier coating of BS. None of the ideas in it are original, they come from ancient Persia...as well influenced by Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians.

    The books of the Bible are books of testimony. Unlike treatises on mathematics and logic, where the correctness of the argument can be inferred from the written sources themselves, testimonials invariable involve a person or persons telling you something actually happened. Thus the integrity of the person giving the testimonial is of utmost importance. For that integrity is what makes us trust what he or she says. The Bible makes testimonies about things that are, by any reckoning, out of the ordinary.

    There are testimonials about the appearances of God to some of his prophets, about tremendous miracles such as the parting of the Red Sea and even about a man walking on water! Surely on such incredible testimonies, the integrity of the person telling the stories must be scrutinized very very closely.

    Remember the old maxim: extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

    As a corollary to that, we should demand that the incredible stories demand impeccable integrity on behalf of the storyteller to be believed.

    The first step towards examining the integrity of a person is, of course, to know his or her identity. It is therefore not surprising that Jewish and Christian traditions ascribed the authorships of the books in the Old Testaments to well known Jewish kings and prophets: the very characters mentioned in the Bible. To Moses, certainly the most important figure in Judaism, was attributed the authorship of the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

    In a similar trend, Joshua, Moses' successor, was supposed to have penned the book that has his name as the title. Other important figures in Jewish history, such as David and Solomon, also have books attributed to them.

    There is a similar trend in the New Testament. Most books in the New Testament had their authorship attributed to the disciples of Jesus, or at least their immediate followers. For examples the two letters of Peter were supposed to have been written by the apostle himself, while the gospel of Mark was presumed to have been written by one of Peter's followers.

    These attribution of authorship were accepted, almost without question, by Christians for close to two millennia. In the 19th century, with the use of the methods critical historical research to the books of the Bible, these traditional beliefs were slowly but relentlessly eroded. The research has reached a point where almost all the books in the Bible are no longer held to be written by the people tradition thought them to be.

    This valid discovery, however, is very rarely communicated to the lay public. When it is conveyed at all, it is normally preceded with attempt on behalf of the scholars to cushion the "blow" on the reader. As a result, to this day most lay Christians and (of course) all fundamentalists hold firm to these traditional attribution of authorship.

    Just gonna use Genesis as an example....

    For many centuries, both Christian and Jewish theologians believe that the stories were given by God and thus owed their origins purely to divine inspiration. However in the nineteenth century, British archaeologists unearthed seven tablets containing the Babylonian myth of creation known as Enuma Elish.

    Like the famous Epic of Gilgamesh, archaeologists have assigned the date of composition of this work to around 2000 BC. Although the story differs in specifics to that told in Genesis, the similarities in the general tone has convinced archaeologists that the Genesis account had been fundamentally derived from the Babylonian one. Some of the similarities include:

    The reference to the initial state as being a disordered chaos of water.

    Genesis 1:1 refers to the “darkness” upon the face of the deep. In the Babylonian myth, in the beginning there was only Apsu, the sweet water ocean and Tiamat, the salt water ocean. In fact, archaeologists have generally acknowledged that the Hebrew word for the chaos of the waters or “the deep”, tehom, is actually derived from the Akkadian Tiamat.

    The creation of a firmament to separate the waters above from the waters below.

    In Genesis 1:6-8 God is said to have created the firmament on the second day of creation. In the Babylonian myth, Marduk, son of the Ea the god of wisdom, killed Tiamat and split her into two. The upper half of Tiamat was fixed onto the sky to keep the waters above in place.

    The sequence of successive acts of creation.

    In the Babylonian myth, after Tiamat was killed, the firmament was created by Marduk to separate the waters above from below. Then he created the sun, the moon, the planets and the stars. Finally man was created. This order is very closely paralleled in Genesis I where the firmament was created on the second day, the sun, moon and stars on the third day and man on the sixth day.

    It thus cannot be denied that the creation myth from Genesis must have been derived from the Babylonian one.

    To quote the late Professor S.H. Hooke (1874-1968) an expert on Old Testament Studies:

    "In spite of the complete transformation of the Babylonian material effected by the priestly writer, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the original form of the creation story upon which he is depending is ultimately of Babylonian origin".

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    The Sumerian paradise is called Dilmun. (It should be noted, however that Eden (edinu) was also originally a Sumerian word, meaning ‘plain’ or “steppe’.) Dilmun was a divine garden where sickness and death do not exist. We will now follow Hooke’s paraphrasing of the Sumerian paradise myth;

    According to Sumerian myth the only thing Dilmun lacked was fresh water; the god Enki (or Ea) ordered Utu, the sun-god, to bring up fresh water from the earth to water the garden.

    In the myth of Enki and Ninhursag it is related that the mother-goddess Ninhursag caused eight plants to grow in the garden of the gods. Enki desired to eat these plants and sent his messenger Isimud to fetch them. Enki ate them one by one, and Ninhursag in her rage pronounced the curse of death upon Enki.

    As the result of the curse eight of Enki’s bodily organs were attacked by disease and he was at the pain of death. The great gods were in dismay and Enlil [the chief god] was powerless to help. Ninhursag was induced to return and deal with the situation. She created eight goddesses of healing who proceeded to heal each of the diseased parts of Enki’s body. One of these parts was the god’s rib, and the goddess who was created to deal with the rib was named Ninti, which means “lady of the rib”.

    The similarity between the above myth and that of Genesis’ is obvious to see. The similarity include:

    * The setting- a garden in paradise.
    * The watering of the gardens with water from the earth.
    * The consumption of forbidden fruits, by Adam and Eve in Genesis and by the god Enki in the Sumerian myth.
    * The curse upon the person (s) who ate the fruit.
    * The creating of a female from the rib of the male in Genesis and the creating of a female to heal the rib of the male in the Sumerian precursor.
    * The name of the female thus created. In Genesis, Eve, or in its original semitic form Hawah, means life. In the Sumerian myth, the word ti from the name Ninti has a double meaning; it could mean either ‘rib’ or ‘life’. Thus Ninti can be rendered as “lady of the rib” or “lady of life”.

    That is not all, the Babylonian myth, the Epic of Gilgamesh also contains an episode that doubtless also influenced the writers of Genesis. In it Gilgamesh, in his quest for immortality, was told by Utnapishtim (the Babylonian “Noah”) that there exists a plant at the bottom of the sea that has the property of making the old young again.

    Gilgamesh dived into the sea and brought up the plant. However the plant was stolen while he was taking bath. The thief who stole the plant of everlasting youth away from him was none other than the serpent!

    That Babylonian myths should influence the stories in the Bible is really not surprising. The Babylonian empires were influential throughout the whole middle eastern region for over three thousand years. The history of Jews is also very closely tied to Babylon. For it was there that the Jews were taken into exile in the year 587 BC.

  15. #90
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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I believe that after I die...I'm dead. Nothing. I rot in the ground like every other creature. I believe we are no different than any other living thing on the planet. Do you believe that dogs, monkeys, fish, insects go to heaven? Probably not. Why would they? There is no heaven for these creatures. But you believe humans are special, where I believe we are all part of the ecological process.

    I have also met people that have come close to death and one person who actually died twice! He was in a car accident one time and he was struck by lightning the other time. Both times he was pronounced dead, but did not see anything. No beautiful light, no hot firey place, nothing. I bet you though, all those people your dad treated were raised in a christian society. Athiest or not, in this society we are pounded with the message of heaven and hell. And you're right, some people may doubt their atheism at their death bed and may believe they saw the bible's version of heaven or hell. I don't doubt that. The mind can do crazy things, especially at a time of near death. When people have near-death experiences in other cultures, they see their versions of "heaven" too.

    Why do you worship a being that punishes you for not worshipping him? Is fear the main reason you worship him? Fear of burning in hell? I would hope an all-powerful being would be more understanding. I've been a good person my whole life. I've treated others with respect, helped those in need, and plan on dedicating my life to protecting the environment. But if I go to hell because I don't worship him, then that is a truly sad, egotistical, self righteous being.
    I do believe that creautres that God made go to heaven if he created it, then it must go to his domain. If there is a God then we shoudl fear him becuase he rules all and in return you will have everlasting happiness. If you were God and a group of people didnt believe in you and spoke down on you and influenced others to not believe in you, would u let him have the same result as the peolpe that do believe in you and do influence others to believe in you? If he let everybody go to heaven then there wouldnt be a point in worshipping him becuase everyone would go to heaven. It's not fear of God it's fear of Hell. If you ever watch a movie a person is powerful either through fear or love, the God i believe in is a god of forgiveness and love. Even though, you should fear him or else you will spend eternity in Hell. Now in my belief, every person will have a choice to belive in him when you die u will see him and he will ask you "do you still believe in me?" being what u said before saying if u see him you'll believe i believe u have a decent shot. But some people who have been evil their whole life might not get that chance and will be in Hell in a split second, and even from Hell, God can save you. He is a god of forgiveness and you wil get a 2nd chance but if u refuse him again then you wil be lost forever. In the Bible there is only two choices...God or no God and NO GOD results in HELL, period. There is no in between but if you have refused God countless times when he was there for you then he will bring that up and if you do go to Hell dont be surprised. All God wants you to do is ask for forgiveness and believe in him from there you dont have to do anything to get into heaven. The differene between my belief and every other in the world is that Christianity is not a work-based religion. Meaning you dont have to buy your way or work your way into heaven, interesting. Just ask for forgiveness and believe in him and your good. Now in heaven theres another story becuase he says your works on earth will refelct who you are in heaven meaning the more people you save and the more you do for the Lord the happier you'll be in heaven and the more treasures etc you will get. So i hope i answered you question. Some people will never believe and there is always a consequence. Even the coldest of murders get saved so if they can do it you surely can. Look at the Son of Sam remember him? He is now preaching the Bible in prison. many people that were lost in every category still got saved and many that killed many people sitll got saved. conluding this, you will have a chance when you die but if you refuse him your whole lfie it will be harder to get into heaven. So there is alwways hope so he isnt a God of what you think he is. He can forgive you only if you ask for his forgiveness and mercy ad believe in him. He gave us free will for a reason. So that he wouldnt force people to believe in him.

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