Do chimps posess the frontal lobe? Can they worship? Can they create? These things set us way apart from all animal life on earth.
I take your opinion seriously on this matter because it appears you have done extensive research on this. So please let me know what you think of that write up in that section.
That is why it will be a lot tougher for anyone to disprove the bible to me, than the avg Christian. Because myself and others who believe like myself see the bible strictly from God's point of view, and not out own, as many others like to do.
It always makes me shake my head when I hear a theist say that “God exists outside of time.” As if time is a bubble you can jump in and out of. Such monstrous nonsense! - Mainly because it is being claimed about a living being. (I will explain why shortly). Their claim is often coupled with their rhetorical question, “how can something come from nothing?” But this is a straw-man, to be sure, for whoever said it did?
It was never claimed as a scientific theory that the universe came out of nothing. Time began at the Big Bang. Prior to that, nothing existed but energy and elementary particles. Since time had not yet existed, they are what existed “outside of time,” if anything ever did. Meaning, something always existed, and never nothing. Putting God in the picture merely complicates things, and it is quite unnecessary.
Therefore, Occam’s razor is fulfilled by there not being a God. Furthermore, one only needs to observe the First Law of Thermodynamics as to clearly see why it is that there could have never been nothing, and that science in fact claims the contrary. For it states that – come on, everybody say it with me – “energy cannot be created nor destroyed.” Meaning, all the energy that currently exists in the universe has always existed, and no god was ever required to create it. That is, under this natural law: something has always existed – even prior to the Big Bang.
But here is where the theist and even deist anxiously jump in. “But you have not disproved God,” they say, happily and proudly stating the obvious.
No, of course I haven’t. I have only shown his/her/its existence to be improbable and superfluous. Disproving God, on the other hand - is what I am about to do.
The main two aspects of the theistic God are that he has a mind, and was himself not created, as he is the beginning of all things. That is, he is both sentient and the Alpha. But a sentient being cannot be the alpha! All sentient beings have a first thought, a first feeling, a first perception. God would have had to of had a first thought, feeling, perception.
There cannot be an infinite regress of these things. There cannot be an infinite regress of a stream of consciousness. It is a logical absurdity. God, like all sentient beings, would have had to of come into existence. He would have had to of evolved into existence, as all new species do, or he would have had to of been created by a being greater than he/she/it, which means he/she/it wouldn’t be God - in the first place.
Therefore, though it is possible for a supreme being to exist, it is quite impossible – for God to. And let no one tell you that God cannot be disproved, or that he exists outside of time ever again. Especially since thinking, something God does partake in supposedly, occurs in time, and we have now seen the consequences of that, as there cannot be an infinite regress of thoughts.
It is illogical to us, yes even ABSURD because we all have a start. Some how Jehovah is different. He's never had one. And this much I know about him is, his word the Bible, when understood properly is the most profound truth on the planet.
This conversation would be null and void if someone can just refute the bible, and prove evolution is a fact. But the very things you guys say makes it true, the people who live to study them say makes it not.
There are things in the bible that are indisputable facts. Becuase of these and other reasons, many believe the bible is Gods word. This is not the case with evolution.
You guys say Fossil record, I read on it, and some scientists say the fossil record lends truth to the bible more than the belief of evolution. If it were a fact, than none, I mean NONE could say that. Like who in the scientific world is saying the earth is square and flat? How many scientists are saying that? 0! WHY? BECAUSE IT'S A FACT THE EARTH IS ROUND! WHY ARE THEIR SCIENTISTS SAYING EVOLUTION IS A FARCE? BECAUSE IT DOES NOT ADD UP TO EVERY SINGLE SCIENTIST LIKE AN ACTUAL FACT WOULD HAVE TOO!
So, essentially I'm good to go. Thanks. I'll continue living my life the way I have.
But you're not really good to go as you say. There is a prospect of being alive forever, vs dead forever that everyone still faces. You basically saying you're good to go, ignoring God is what can possibly be your permanent death (meaning no resurrection and possible life forever) Why would you want to be dead forever, when you can live forever?
Overall, I have enjoyed these discussions. It has forced me to dig up information. Knowledge is power my friend.
I thought of something today thinking about this thread.
Lyfe, you make great arguement when you can post those prophecies and show their correlation to the history. Great proof, right?
I'm not saying that the Bible is wrong on these occurences. I'm supporting your notion that the book was indeed right.
However, while these are evidence to the fact that the Bible has truth to it, they in no way serve as proof to any other parts to the bible. Alexander conquering some land as prophesied has NOTHING to do with Jesus being the son of God or any such thing. Because there are correct things in the Bible does not mean the book as a whole is infallible.
There are many things prophesied about in the bible concerning Jesus. He fulfilled all the things concerning those as well. I mean, even the Pharasees and Saducees who had the Hebrew scribes could not argue against the things Jesus did during his life.
All I have ever said my whole time during any of these threads is that one would need to just have an open mind to be taught the true meaning of the bible to have a chance of understanding it. IF YOU DON'T DO THAT YOU NEVER WILL BECAUSE IT WILL ALL APPEAR TO BE A FAIRY TALE.
It is easiest to get people who do not believe to look at the Bible in a different light if you can make them understand some of the truths in it. Like Prophecy and scientific facts that hold up even today. For instance, it seems minute when you think of it, but the bible stating the earth is a sphere that hangs on nothing begs to ask a simple question... How would those guys know this for sure? I told my brother once that the bible had such things and he did not believe me. That is because most people are not being properly taught to understand the bible, so most scoff. And who could blame them with the way most bible based religions go about their business of teaching?
Take LJ4PTPLAY for instance. All his life he was made to understand that God puts people in an eternal torture chamber for sinning and ignoring his wishes, for what, a max 70-80 years of human life? AND THAT EVEN DEPENDS IF YOU HAD THE CHANCE OF KNOWING THE TRUTH! What if you were living somewhere where the bible was not prevalent? You were doomed, no way out. But God loves you!
See from that angle, I can TOTALLY understand why people lack faith! Look at what is being taught! But you know who hates it the most? Jehovah himself. In fact, he blames false religion more than anything else to why mankind is in the state that it's in. That is why, very soon he is going to put into the hearts of the leaders of the world to abandon all forms of false religion. If you pay close attention... You could actually see it unfolding now. Mega Churches are losing their luster. Some forms of government are already outlawing certain religious groups. People in general basically ignore religion. Even people who claim to have a religious background!
But I rambled on a bit. Sorry. I get what you're saying about the bible not being infallible, but because of all the prophecies that I understand about, along with historical, scientific and the basic laws and principles found in it, It leads me to believe that a higher source had to be hind this book. There is no way, 40 different writers from a span of over 1500 years of written human history could have been this harmonious and accurate. And most of them have never met each other..
Let's talk about this bible for a moment some are unfortunately behind enough to say is accurate. When it comes to the issue of prophecy it's far to convenient to say well someone wrote something 2000 years ago, and THEN WHEN its re-interpreted to FIT today's context call it a true propechy. Prophecies must be specific.
Edgar Cayce would be a better example to use if you were going to use one. He was specific he gave specific names, dates, years, months, places..etc. He didn't plop down and just say generic things or in some kind of poetic prose code, like much of the Bible uses and people do till this day. Nostradamus wrote thousands of prophecies...how come no church is worshipping him today? How come his writings are not reveared as insight into the eyes of GOD..after all if you believe his works to be truth?
The bible is a collection composing of 62 books not including the Apocrypha. Such a document can't ever be the inspired word of a GOD. For example, Nehemiah, calls for the preservation of racial purity by the prohibition of inter-racial marriages, while Ruth has for its heroine a Moabite woman who married a Jew. As another example, the book of Proverbs extols living the good life which it says is God's reward for righteous living while Ecclesiastes says life is meaningless and prosperity is accidental.
The New Testament stands in an uneasy contrast with the Old. The Old Testament says that the Jews are the chosen people of God. This God may sometimes abandon them as a punishment for their unfaithfulness but the severance was always only temporary. Yet in the New Testament we are shown that the Jews are completely severed from God and are in fact responsible for the murder of his Son.
The Bible is nothing more than a collection of stories crammed in from other cultures, that were given a glossier coating of BS. None of the ideas in it are original, they come from ancient Persia...as well influenced by Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians.
The books of the Bible are books of testimony. Unlike treatises on mathematics and logic, where the correctness of the argument can be inferred from the written sources themselves, testimonials invariable involve a person or persons telling you something actually happened. Thus the integrity of the person giving the testimonial is of utmost importance. For that integrity is what makes us trust what he or she says. The Bible makes testimonies about things that are, by any reckoning, out of the ordinary.
There are testimonials about the appearances of God to some of his prophets, about tremendous miracles such as the parting of the Red Sea and even about a man walking on water! Surely on such incredible testimonies, the integrity of the person telling the stories must be scrutinized very very closely.
Remember the old maxim: extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.
As a corollary to that, we should demand that the incredible stories demand impeccable integrity on behalf of the storyteller to be believed.
The first step towards examining the integrity of a person is, of course, to know his or her identity. It is therefore not surprising that Jewish and Christian traditions ascribed the authorships of the books in the Old Testaments to well known Jewish kings and prophets: the very characters mentioned in the Bible. To Moses, certainly the most important figure in Judaism, was attributed the authorship of the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
In a similar trend, Joshua, Moses' successor, was supposed to have penned the book that has his name as the title. Other important figures in Jewish history, such as David and Solomon, also have books attributed to them.
There is a similar trend in the New Testament. Most books in the New Testament had their authorship attributed to the disciples of Jesus, or at least their immediate followers. For examples the two letters of Peter were supposed to have been written by the apostle himself, while the gospel of Mark was presumed to have been written by one of Peter's followers.
These attribution of authorship were accepted, almost without question, by Christians for close to two millennia. In the 19th century, with the use of the methods critical historical research to the books of the Bible, these traditional beliefs were slowly but relentlessly eroded. The research has reached a point where almost all the books in the Bible are no longer held to be written by the people tradition thought them to be.
This valid discovery, however, is very rarely communicated to the lay public. When it is conveyed at all, it is normally preceded with attempt on behalf of the scholars to cushion the "blow" on the reader. As a result, to this day most lay Christians and (of course) all fundamentalists hold firm to these traditional attribution of authorship.
Just gonna use Genesis as an example....
For many centuries, both Christian and Jewish theologians believe that the stories were given by God and thus owed their origins purely to divine inspiration. However in the nineteenth century, British archaeologists unearthed seven tablets containing the Babylonian myth of creation known as Enuma Elish.
Like the famous Epic of Gilgamesh, archaeologists have assigned the date of composition of this work to around 2000 BC. Although the story differs in specifics to that told in Genesis, the similarities in the general tone has convinced archaeologists that the Genesis account had been fundamentally derived from the Babylonian one. Some of the similarities include:
The reference to the initial state as being a disordered chaos of water.
Genesis 1:1 refers to the “darkness” upon the face of the deep. In the Babylonian myth, in the beginning there was only Apsu, the sweet water ocean and Tiamat, the salt water ocean. In fact, archaeologists have generally acknowledged that the Hebrew word for the chaos of the waters or “the deep”, tehom, is actually derived from the Akkadian Tiamat.
The creation of a firmament to separate the waters above from the waters below.
In Genesis 1:6-8 God is said to have created the firmament on the second day of creation. In the Babylonian myth, Marduk, son of the Ea the god of wisdom, killed Tiamat and split her into two. The upper half of Tiamat was fixed onto the sky to keep the waters above in place.
The sequence of successive acts of creation.
In the Babylonian myth, after Tiamat was killed, the firmament was created by Marduk to separate the waters above from below. Then he created the sun, the moon, the planets and the stars. Finally man was created. This order is very closely paralleled in Genesis I where the firmament was created on the second day, the sun, moon and stars on the third day and man on the sixth day.
It thus cannot be denied that the creation myth from Genesis must have been derived from the Babylonian one.
To quote the late Professor S.H. Hooke (1874-1968) an expert on Old Testament Studies:
"In spite of the complete transformation of the Babylonian material effected by the priestly writer, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that the original form of the creation story upon which he is depending is ultimately of Babylonian origin".
The Sumerian paradise is called Dilmun. (It should be noted, however that Eden (edinu) was also originally a Sumerian word, meaning ‘plain’ or “steppe’.) Dilmun was a divine garden where sickness and death do not exist. We will now follow Hooke’s paraphrasing of the Sumerian paradise myth;
According to Sumerian myth the only thing Dilmun lacked was fresh water; the god Enki (or Ea) ordered Utu, the sun-god, to bring up fresh water from the earth to water the garden.
In the myth of Enki and Ninhursag it is related that the mother-goddess Ninhursag caused eight plants to grow in the garden of the gods. Enki desired to eat these plants and sent his messenger Isimud to fetch them. Enki ate them one by one, and Ninhursag in her rage pronounced the curse of death upon Enki.
As the result of the curse eight of Enki’s bodily organs were attacked by disease and he was at the pain of death. The great gods were in dismay and Enlil [the chief god] was powerless to help. Ninhursag was induced to return and deal with the situation. She created eight goddesses of healing who proceeded to heal each of the diseased parts of Enki’s body. One of these parts was the god’s rib, and the goddess who was created to deal with the rib was named Ninti, which means “lady of the rib”.
The similarity between the above myth and that of Genesis’ is obvious to see. The similarity include:
* The setting- a garden in paradise.
* The watering of the gardens with water from the earth.
* The consumption of forbidden fruits, by Adam and Eve in Genesis and by the god Enki in the Sumerian myth.
* The curse upon the person (s) who ate the fruit.
* The creating of a female from the rib of the male in Genesis and the creating of a female to heal the rib of the male in the Sumerian precursor.
* The name of the female thus created. In Genesis, Eve, or in its original semitic form Hawah, means life. In the Sumerian myth, the word ti from the name Ninti has a double meaning; it could mean either ‘rib’ or ‘life’. Thus Ninti can be rendered as “lady of the rib” or “lady of life”.
That is not all, the Babylonian myth, the Epic of Gilgamesh also contains an episode that doubtless also influenced the writers of Genesis. In it Gilgamesh, in his quest for immortality, was told by Utnapishtim (the Babylonian “Noah”) that there exists a plant at the bottom of the sea that has the property of making the old young again.
Gilgamesh dived into the sea and brought up the plant. However the plant was stolen while he was taking bath. The thief who stole the plant of everlasting youth away from him was none other than the serpent!
That Babylonian myths should influence the stories in the Bible is really not surprising. The Babylonian empires were influential throughout the whole middle eastern region for over three thousand years. The history of Jews is also very closely tied to Babylon. For it was there that the Jews were taken into exile in the year 587 BC.
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