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Thread: Explaining Evolution And Why GOD is NOT LIKELY

  1. #211
    Veteran TunerAddict's Avatar
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    Mormons have come to my house many times and talked with me. I was very nice with them. I read their issues of The Watchtower that they had given me and while it provides very convincing information, I also notice large flaws in the pamphlet that contradicted what was being said elsewhere, sometimes even on that same page.

    I'm not hating on the religious, I just don't believe and I don't want that **** forced onto me. I'm pretty god damn tired of being an outcast, a pariah, being though less of because I'm an atheist. The majority of the religious just feel the need to FORCE their views on others and look down on those who think differently, which is, in essence, contrary to the beliefs that they claim to follow.

    I guess it really comes down to a basic principle I try to follow when involving people that I physically meet. Mind your own business.

  2. #212
    Member KnicksFan4Realz's Avatar
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    Now earlier someone mentioned that Atheism promoted violence and was against morality. Took me quite some time to research this..and put this together but I have found all the atrocities contained in Christianity.

    Christianity has been more of a threat to society. Let the historical record speak for itself...

    Ancient Pagans

    * As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.

    * Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.

    * Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.

    * Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
    * Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]

    * Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]

    According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
    * In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
    * In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
    * The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
    [DO19-25]

    Mission

    * Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
    * Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
    * Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
    * 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]
    * 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
    Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]


    Crusades (1095-1291)

    * First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
    * Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
    * 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
    * Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
    * After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed. [WW32-35]
    Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
    * Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
    * Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
    In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."
    * The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
    * Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
    * Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
    * Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
    * Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]

    Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

    Heretics and Atheists

    * Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
    * Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
    * Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
    The Albigensians (Cathars) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
    Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (the greatest single mass murderer prior to the Nazi era) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Number of victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbors and friends) estimated between 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
    * Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
    * Subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
    * After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
    * Estimated one million victims (Cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
    * Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
    * Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada, a former Dominican friar, allegedly was responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
    * John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
    * Michael Sattler, leader of a baptist community, was burned at the stake in Rottenburg, Germany, May 20, 1527. Several days later his wife and other follwers were also executed. [KM]
    * University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
    * Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.
    * Thomas Aikenhead, a twenty-year-old scottish student of Edinburgh University, was hanged for atheism and blasphemy.

    Witches

    * From the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
    * In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]


    Religious Wars

    * 15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
    * 1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
    * 1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. [DO31]
    Between 5000 and 6000 Protestants were drowned by Spanish Catholic Troops, "a disaster the burghers of Emden first realized when several thousand broad-brimmed Dutch hats floated by." [SH216]
    * 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
    * 17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
    * 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
    * 17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]


    Jews

    * Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
    * In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
    * 694 17. Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
    * 1010 The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
    * 1096 First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
    * 1147 Second Crusade: Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
    * 1189/90 Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked. [DO40]
    * 1235, Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
    * 1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
    * 1290 Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
    * 1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
    * 1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
    * 1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
    * 1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
    * 1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all Jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
    * 1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
    * 1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

    Native Peoples

    * Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
    * Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
    While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
    * On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

    "I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]

    * Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
    * In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
    * On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
    * The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and Spanish raids.
    * As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
    * The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
    * What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
    "The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
    Or, on another occasion:
    "The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
    * The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
    * "And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitlán [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
    * Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other Spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
    * "When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]

    Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

    * Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
    * In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
    "Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow Englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
    * On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War." The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
    * When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
    Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
    The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
    * So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
    * Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
    "Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
    * Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
    * Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by Spanish methods of the time)
    In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
    * The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
    * Other tribes were to follow the same path.
    * Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
    "Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
    * Like today, lying was morally acceptable to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
    * In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
    * In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
    * To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
    * All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
    * A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
    * In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.

    More Glorious Events in U.S. History

    * Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]

    * Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
    From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]

    * By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]

    20th Century Church Atrocities

    Catholic extermination camps
    Surprisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
    In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdienst der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]

    * Catholic terror in Vietnam
    In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-Buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
    Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
    The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:

    "Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."

    Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of Buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of Buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
    To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life.

    * Christianity kills the cat
    On July 1, 1976, Anneliese Michel, a 23-year-old student of a teachers college in Germany, died: she starved herself to death. For months she had been haunted by demonic visions and apparitions, and for months two Catholic priests - with explicit approval of the Catholic bishop of Würzburg - additionally pestered and tormented the wretched girl with their exorcist rituals. After her death in Klingenberg hospital - her body was littered with wounds - her parents, both of them fanatical Catholics, were sentenced to six months for not having called for medical help. None of the priests was punished: on the contrary, Miss Michel's grave today is a place of pilgrimage and worship for a number of similarly faithful Catholics (in the seventeenth century Würzburg was notorious for it's extensive witch burnings).
    This case is only the tip of an iceberg of such evil superstition and has become known only because of its lethal outcome. [SP80]

    * Rwanda Massacres
    In 1994 in the small African country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
    For quite some time I heard only rumors about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
    Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:

    "Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.
    According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
    In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]

    More recently the BBC aired:

    Priests get death sentence for Rwandan genocide
    BBC NEWS April 19, 1998

    A court in Rwanda has sentenced two Roman Catholic priests to death for their role in the genocide of 1994, in which up to a million Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed. Pope John Paul said the priests must be made to account for their actions. Different sections of the Rwandan church have been widely accused of playing an active role in the genocide of 1994...

    * As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end.

    If today Christians talk to me about morality, this is why they make me sick.

    References

    [DA]
    K.Deschner, Abermals krähte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962.

    [DO]
    K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.

    [EC]
    P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985.

    [EJ]
    S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977.

    [HA]
    Hunter, M., Wootton, D., Atheism from the Reformation to the Enlightenment, Oxford 1992.

    [KM]
    Schröder-Kappus, E., Wagner, W., Michael Sattler. Ein Märtyrer in Rottenburg, Tübingen, TVT Media 1992.

    [LI]
    H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961.

    [MM]
    M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People.

    [MV]
    A.Manhattan, The Vatican's Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
    See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992.

    [NC]
    J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992.

    [S2]
    Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00.

    [SH]
    D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.

    [SP]
    German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996.

    [TA]
    A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676.

    [TG]
    F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980.

    [WW]
    H.Wollschläger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zürich 1973.
    (This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers' writings).

    [WV]

    Estimates on the number of executed witches:

    * N.Cohn, Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
    * R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York 1959, 180.
    * J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.


    ***NOW WHOSE MORE OF A THREAT AGAIN??***

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    Originally Posted by TunerAddict
    Mormons have come to my house many times and talked with me. I was very nice with them. I read their issues of The Watchtower that they had given me and while it provides very convincing information, I also notice large flaws in the pamphlet that contradicted what was being said elsewhere, sometimes even on that same page.
    Mormons... don't hand out WatchTowers, Jehovah's witnesses do. But Mormons do go door to door. like Jehovahs witnesses do.

    And you will get contradicting info from other places, because they do not believe the same as we do. But the bible says to test the inspired expression to see if it is applicable to the faith. That means in harmony with the bible. And not just a part of it, the whole bible. And that difference is huge, because only one religious faith on earth consults the whole bible to base their doctrines, and that is Jehovah's witnesses.

    Originally Posted by TunerAddict
    I'm not hating on the religious, I just don't believe and I don't want that **** forced onto me. I'm pretty god damn tired of being an outcast, a pariah, being though less of because I'm an atheist. The majority of the religious just feel the need to FORCE their views on others and look down on those who think differently, which is, in essence, contrary to the beliefs that they claim to follow.

    I guess it really comes down to a basic principle I try to follow when involving people that I physically meet. Mind your own business.
    People are imperfect, sometimes it may appear to you they are forcing their beliefs on you, when that is not the case. Or they could actually be doing just as you say as well. Forgive them, they are doing what they feel they are compelled.

    I would not have even known where you stood as an athiest unless you put it out there. And the same for you knowing where I stand. But remember the thread. Explaining evolution and why God is not likely. I think all parties involved in their own ways have made outstanding cases for thier beliefs. But did it prove God is not likely?

    If someone could have refuted biblical prophecies for me, it would have made me wonder to be honest. But no one has been able to do this. And the ones I ask to be refuted are not even totally relevant to our day. There are some in the bible that have to do with our day that are happening right under everyone's noses I have not even presented yet. But of course, this is because I live and study this.

    Flip side. I don't really know Jack about evolution to be honest, so what you guys know, clearly outdoes my limited knowledge, admittedly.

    But here is the difference. If you cannot refute prophecy from Jehovahs vantage point, not mankinds, then you will have a big issue convincing me. And before you mention it, there is plenty of reason why other religions disagree with us from their standpoint, but one who is not religious would never understand who is behind that fully.

    But I have shown some quotes from people who live this stuff, that says they don't agree. (for LJ's sake, leaving out Carl Sagan) Why are scientists not unanimous about evolution? Like even Christians who dont agree on doctrine, all agree that the bible is God's word. But it appears quite a bit of scientists do not agree with evolution nased on what's available.

    For me, it would have been a lot easier if all scietists agree on evolution as they all agree the earth is round. They could disagree on theory on how it came about all they wanted, but as long as they all agreed it is what took place, that would be huge. But that is not the case, nor will it ever be it seems. And no creationists needs to make this up.

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    They have different ideas of evolution. The bible is a written work, it clearly points out key ideas and beliefs.

    Evolution, however, is a theory based on man's observation of gradual change in organisms, thus there are going to be differences.

    Of course, there are plenty of religous people that vastly disagree on the bibles aswell.

    Not everyone is going to agree, the same sentence can have 10 different meaning to 10 different people as can one observation be taken 10 different ways.

    Truth is that neither side is proven or totally agreed upon, nor will they ever be.

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    Originally Posted by TunerAddict
    They have different ideas of evolution. The bible is a written work, it clearly points out key ideas and beliefs.

    Evolution, however, is a theory based on man's observation of gradual change in organisms, thus there are going to be differences.

    Of course, there are plenty of religous people that vastly disagree on the bibles aswell.

    Not everyone is going to agree, the same sentence can have 10 different meaning to 10 different people as can one observation be taken 10 different ways.

    Truth is that neither side is proven or totally agreed upon, nor will they ever be.

    Now put yourself in my shoes for a sec. You were me, and a religious group was able to help you understand perfectly bible prophecy that secular world history has proven to come true, would you put faith in the bible based on that?

    If it showed you bible prophecy that concerns the very time you live in, and you see it happening, would you believe it?

    Now if someone says what you believe in fact is not true, even though world history actually attests to what you believe in, how would you value that person's opinion on that matter?

    This is the options I have to weigh.

    I gather bible prophecy to be extremely accurate and telling, and world history attests to it. Which helps me put strong faith in the bible because how else could these things come true in the fashion they have unless the God of the bible was actually a living being who can maneuver them? What other option is there? These 40 different men would just so happen to luck up? Written after the fact? That excuse only goes so far. A lot of these prophecies start from one time, way down to ours, shot in the dark these guys guessed this would happen exactly how it says? Is it reasonable to suggest that maybe the God of the bible predicted them for the sake of having them unfold slowly so that many forms of life will have a chance to see fulfillment, just to glorify his name?


    Flip side.

    We hear evolutionists say there is no God. They say that based on scientific theory, which is not really theory the way normal people use it, but theory in a factual sense if that is possible. They claim that mankind and modern primates have a common ancestor. The fossil record, which would either be the most compelling show of support, or damaging record to the belief does not in fact tip the scales to their side of the debate. And this has compelled some to say the fossil record is not a primary record in proving evolution. The common ancestor that they say mankind and modern primates should have in the fossil record has not shown itself, even though they had claimed to find such quite a few times, they later had to retract. Their dating method has come under scrutiny within their own circles for being inconsistent, especially beyond the year 2000 b.c.e, yet they say they have a testing system that makes a faulty system somehow accurate. And on top of this, will admit there is no accurate written evidence of mankind beyond 5000 years. All of these things come from those in the very field of science.


    How does one logically weigh uncertainty favorably to certainty? If you were me of course.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Now put yourself in my shoes for a sec. You were me, and a religious group was able to help you understand perfectly bible prophecy that secular world history has proven to come true, would you put faith in the bible based on that?

    If it showed you bible prophecy that concerns the very time you live in, and you see it happening, would you believe it?

    Now if someone says what you believe in fact is not true, even though world history actually attests to what you believe in, how would you value that person's opinion on that matter?

    This is the options I have to weigh.

    I gather bible prophecy to be extremely accurate and telling, and world history attests to it. Which helps me put strong faith in the bible because how else could these things come true in the fashion they have unless the God of the bible was actually a living being who can maneuver them? What other option is there? These 40 different men would just so happen to luck up? Written after the fact? That excuse only goes so far. A lot of these prophecies start from one time, way down to ours, shot in the dark these guys guessed this would happen exactly how it says? Is it reasonable to suggest that maybe the God of the bible predicted them for the sake of having them unfold slowly so that many forms of life will have a chance to see fulfillment, just to glorify his name?


    Flip side.

    We hear evolutionists say there is no God. They say that based on scientific theory, which is not really theory the way normal people use it, but theory in a factual sense if that is possible. They claim that mankind and modern primates have a common ancestor. The fossil record, which would either be the most compelling show of support, or damaging record to the belief does not in fact tip the scales to their side of the debate. And this has compelled some to say the fossil record is not a primary record in proving evolution. The common ancestor that they say mankind and modern primates should have in the fossil record has not shown itself, even though they had claimed to find such quite a few times, they later had to retract. Their dating method has come under scrutiny within their own circles for being inconsistent, especially beyond the year 2000 b.c.e, yet they say they have a testing system that makes a faulty system somehow accurate. And on top of this, will admit there is no accurate written evidence of mankind beyond 5000 years. All of these things come from those in the very field of science.


    How does one logically weigh uncertainty favorably to certainty? If you were me of course.
    Well its hard to weigh the two when you clearly favor one side in your examples there. You can't put yourself in someone else's shoes because of those biases we all have.

    Truth is that we can't honestly look at any situation without being affected by our biases. There is always going to be something pushing us in one way or another.

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    Originally Posted by TunerAddict
    Well its hard to weigh the two when you clearly favor one side in your examples there. You can't put yourself in someone else's shoes because of those biases we all have.

    Truth is that we can't honestly look at any situation without being affected by our biases. There is always going to be something pushing us in one way or another.
    While I will agree that there is always a degree of bias on both sides, secular history proves that the prophetic word of the bible has come true without a doubt. And secualr history has no reason for bias in this case. It just tells how things broke out. And it happened just as the bible said it would.

    Scientists cannot doubt this, and the avg man cannot. Especially when the details are remarkably accurate.

    We do not have this with evolution. No matter how much those who believe wish to make it factual.
    Last edited by Knicks4lyfe; Jul 31, 2008 at 17:05.

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    While I will agree that there is always a degree of bias on both sides, secular history proves that the prophetic word of the bible has come true without a doubt. And secualr history has no reason for bias in this case. It just tells how things broke out. And it happened just as the bible said it would.

    Scientists cannot doubt this, and the avg man cannot. Especially when the details are remarkably accurate.

    We do not have this with evolution. No matter how much those who believe wish to make it factual.
    How many times have you people came up with an exact date of when Christ coming back only to have people look stupid and be disappointed?

    Still waiting on your so called "END OF TIMES"...Year 2000...the **** happened? N O T H I N G

    Now it's all this 2012 bull****...It's funny how people can believe the Doomsday prophecy of the Mayans...yet these are the same folks that didn't predict the white man was going to wipe out their entire civilization in less than 50 years...****ing astounding.

    The Bible is full of scientific inaccuracies; WHY BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN BY INFERIOR PEOPLE with no knowledge of natural phenomena, gravity, erosion, plate tectonics...etc...

    Book of Daniel most well known false bible prophecy...

    If prophecy were real it wouldn't need interpretation constantly within each generation as to what the symbols and signs are...it would be specific...detailed...and precise. It has to be general so fools can bend it around any future circumstance.

    Just like folks think the Jews returning to Israel has to do with the starting of their state back in 1948...yet the ****s still in Boca Raton, FL.

    You just simply don't understand EVOLUTION. That's all that needs to be said on that, your brain does not have the capacity to comprehend it. You use bible quotes to fit science you never see science fit bible quotes to fit itself. Religion (the folks in it) hate science for the simple fact...your losing numbers. If there is no one to carry on the faith..it ceases to exist..and apparently to so will GOD.

    After if no one ever told you about GOD...would you still believe?

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    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    How many times have you people came up with an exact date of when Christ coming back only to have people look stupid and be disappointed?
    Mathew 24:3 and 4 says.

    3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

    4 And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.

    Here we have disciples of Jesus asking him to tell of the sign of his presence. His presence meaning his second coming, as King of course. But the real key here is that his disciples were asking for a SIGN of his second coming, or presence as King. If Jesus second coming would mean him revealing himself to everyone in plain eye sight, there would not be any need for his disciples to ask for a SIGN of his presence. That is why Jesus said “Look out that nobody misleads YOU" speaking directly to his disciples, those that would truly look to him for guidance.

    Jesus went on to let them know what the sign will be in mathew 24:4-14. And Jesus coming in the clouds, or revealing himself in plain sight was not in the sign.

    So a true disciple of Christ would not be looking for Jesus actual appearance, since Jesus did not say he would appear. But they would be looking for the SIGN that he has arrived as King. Because that is what he said to look for.


    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    Still waiting on your so called "END OF TIMES"...Year 2000...the **** happened? N O T H I N G
    If you would read Mathew 24:4-14, and consider how the last 90 years have been the worse in human history, you'd realize you are well within the last days. Very, very deep. Also, Jesus said the time of the end would be marked by his disciples preaching the good news of the Kingdom. Look around and see if there is indeed a religous following Christ that preaches this.



    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    Now it's all this 2012 bull****...It's funny how people can believe the Doomsday prophecy of the Mayans...yet these are the same folks that didn't predict the white man was going to wipe out their entire civilization in less than 50 years...****ing astounding.
    Jesus said no one but Jehovah knows the exact time judgement will be executed on this world, meaning when he will destroy the government sof this world, and replace them with his. What Jesus said to look for was the sign, so that we know we are near it. But when it will exactly come, is as a thief in the night. But the sign tells us its very near.

    So anyone giving you an exact time ever is not adhering to the bible. Because even Jesus said he did not know the exact time, only Jehovah does.



    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    The Bible is full of scientific inaccuracies; WHY BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN BY INFERIOR PEOPLE with no knowledge of natural phenomena, gravity, erosion, plate tectonics...etc....
    Yet these inferior bible writers were able to accurately tell us long before modern science that the earth hangs on nothing? Bible has no scientific inaccuracies. I have shown this before.


    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    Book of Daniel most well known false bible prophecy.......
    Like Alexander the great defeating the medes and persians and dying suddenly and his four generals taking over his Kingdom right?

    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    If prophecy were real it wouldn't need interpretation constantly within each generation as to what the symbols and signs are...it would be specific...detailed...and precise. It has to be general so fools can bend it around any future circumstance.
    second peter says
    20 For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

    This will explain why men who truly serve God can understand and explain prophecy vs a man who does not believe God exists. You need to have God's spirit to help you understand truly what God is about.


    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    Just like folks think the Jews returning to Israel has to do with the starting of their state back in 1948...yet the ****s still in Boca Raton, FL.
    Folks who think this just clearly cannot see the truth. That God is not backing any government on earth, and he has been denounced the Jews as his chosen people. God has set up his own Kingdom government that will rule from heaven, and crush all existing earthly governments on earth. ( Dan 2:44)

    So again, anyone government thinking they are doing God's will on earth is grossly mislead. According to the bible.

    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    You just simply don't understand EVOLUTION. That's all that needs to be said on that, your brain does not have the capacity to comprehend it. You use bible quotes to fit science you never see science fit bible quotes to fit itself. Religion (the folks in it) hate science for the simple fact...your losing numbers. If there is no one to carry on the faith..it ceases to exist..and apparently to so will GOD.
    No, I can't understand a belief that says man evolved from a common ancestor of monkeys that no scientists in the world can seem to find no matter how much they dig. Especially when they compound that problem with a faulty dating system and other miscalulations on their parts. Nah, can't. Nor, do I want to. I'd rather deal with an invisible God who means what he says, and shows those who seek him how loving and true he is.

    And with his blessing, 500 million years from now when there is life on earth, and the sun is still around, and the world is peaceful, we can all praise Jehovah for fulfilling his promise at psalm 37:29 and ponder breifly on the days when mankind thought the sun would blow up and swallow the universe, and man came from monkeys.

    Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Realz
    After if no one ever told you about GOD...would you still believe?
    Yes, because we have an innate desire to worship. Even if it's not God himself, humans have an innate desire to worship and seek a higher being. Jehovah put that there. It's true.

    If no one ever told you man came from monkeys would you believe? And what would be your basis? Animals are subject to mankind, what rational would you have to think you have a monkey dad?

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    The arrow is the location of our solar system in the Milky Way Galaxy. The Sun, Earth, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, Jupiter, Neptune, and Uranus all are located at that point (over 4 billion miles). There are at least 200 billion stars like our sun in the Milky Way. It is over 100,000 light years across (586,569,600,000,000,000 miles across). Travelling at the speed of light, it would take you 100,000 years to travel from one end of the Milky Way galaxy to the other.


    Each light in this image is a galaxy like our Milky Way. Each one of these galaxies contain over 100 billion (100,000,000,000) stars like our sun. The majority of stars have planets revolving around them, like our solar system. There are more stars (like our sun) in the universe than there are grains of sand on every beach on earth combined.


    If we are the most important creatures to God, why did he make such a monumental effort to make it seem like we are insignificant and unimportant?
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Aug 01, 2008 at 21:40.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay

    The arrow is the location of our solar system in the Milky Way Galaxy. The Sun, Earth, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, Jupiter, Neptune, and Uranus all are located at that point (over 4 billion miles). There are at least 200 billion stars like our sun in the Milky Way. It is over 100,000 light years across (586,569,600,000,000,000 miles across). Travelling at the speed of light, it would take you 100,000 years to travel from one end of the Milky Way galaxy to the other.


    Each light in this image is a galaxy like our Milky Way. Each one of these galaxies contain over 100 billion (100,000,000,000) stars like our sun. The majority of stars have planets revolving around them, like our solar system. There are more stars (like our sun) in the universe than there are grains of sand on every beach on earth combined.


    If we are the most important creatures to God, why did he make such a monumental effort to make it seem like we are insignificant and unimportant?
    Why would you think he made us significant? We can see the sun, we can sun bathe, we can enjoy a swim in the summer and air dry, we can praise God for making the sun which benefits all life on earth.

    As phenomenal as the sun is, all it does is provide solar energy. It cannot speak, hear, or worship God like we can. And for that matter, neither can none of the magnificent planets iin the universe.

    We are in God's image. That is what sets us apart. It is a shame you feel we are insignificant. God loves us so much he sent his only begotten son to die that we may live as he originally intended. And you say he spent so much time showing us how insignificant we are

    Tell me, when are you sending your only begotton son off to die for others who are insignificant?

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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Yet these inferior bible writers were able to accurately tell us long before modern science that the earth hangs on nothing? Bible has no scientific inaccuracies. I have shown this before.
    Why do you continue to say these things? We've proven the bible wrong in multiple places.

    Here's one example that I've brought up several times. Two individuals of a species can not sustain a viable population through sexual reproduction. This proves the Adam and Eve, and Noah's Arc stories to be impossible. Oh wait, they were really, really healthy. That's your answer. Hahah! So, the animals on Noah's Arc were really, really healthy too? Even though health has nothing to do with the ability to avoid genetic diseases caused from interbreeding.

    Again, with Noah's Arc. There are over 1.5 million known species on the planet today. Since you say evolution is not true, that means every species that exists today must have existed during Noah's time. That means, with two individuals of every species on the boat, Noah must have had roughly 3 million individuals on the boat at the same time.

    Why would you think he made us significant? We can see the sun, we can sun bathe, we can enjoy a swim in the summer and air dry, we can praise God for making the sun which benefits all life on earth.

    As phenomenal as the sun is, all it does is provide solar energy. It cannot speak, hear, or worship God like we can. And for that matter, neither can none of the magnificent planets iin the universe.

    We are in God's image. That is what sets us apart. It is a shame you feel we are insignificant. God loves us so much he sent his only begotten son to die that we may live as he originally intended. And you say he spent so much time showing us how insignificant we are

    Tell me, when are you sending your only begotton son off to die for others who are insignificant?
    The sun can also give you cancer and can make you go blind. Thanks God!

    It's kind of funny. You look at those images and see our importance, yet I look at those same images and see how tiny and insignificant we really are. To put into scale, it's like a microbe thinking it's the most important species on the planet.

    Since you believe we are the most important creatures to God and we are the only intelligent lifeforms in the universe, why did God make all that wasted extra space that we'll never see or visit? Not very efficient for a supreme being. You would think he would just put our solar system in the center of the universe and call it good.
    Last edited by LJ4ptplay; Aug 02, 2008 at 18:17.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    Why do you continue to say these things? We've proven the bible wrong in multiple places.

    Here's one example that I've brought up several times. Two individuals of a species can not sustain a viable population through sexual reproduction. This proves the Adam and Eve, and Noah's Arc stories to be impossible. Oh wait, they were really, really healthy. That's your answer. Hahah! So, the animals on Noah's Arc were really, really healthy too? Even though health has nothing to do with the ability to avoid genetic diseases caused from interbreeding.

    Again, with Noah's Arc. There are over 1.5 million known species on the planet today. Since you say evolution is not true, that means every species that exists today must have existed during Noah's time. That means, with two individuals of every species on the boat, Noah must have had roughly 3 million individuals on the boat at the same time.
    Are there cases of interbreeding now that avoid health issues? If it can happen now, why would it not be able to happen to fulfill God's purpose on a grand scale? It was not like that was his eternal purpose, for there were laws to forbid such with the Jews.

    And you keep saying genetic disease. These people were living hundreds of years. Think the chance of disease was high if that was the case? How do you live 930 years diseased?

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    It's kind of funny. You look at those images and see our importance, yet I look at those same images and see how tiny and insignificant we really are. To put into scale, it's like a microbe thinking it's the most important species on the planet.

    Since you believe we are the most important creatures to God and we are the only intelligent lifeforms in the universe, why did God make all that wasted extra space that we'll never see or visit? Not very efficient for a supreme being. You would think he would just put our solar system in the center of the universe and call it good.
    Who said we will never visit or see it? God said the righteous will inherit the earth and reside forever upon it. Mankind can go to the moon now, using 10 percent of their brain. Imagine what we could do using 100?

    And as far as God's efficiency goes.

    The God of the bible allowed 40 imperfect writers of different times and backgorunds to pen the most important documentation in human history, with impeccable bible prophecy that cannot be disproved no matter how hard one wants to try, and you say he is inefficient?

    But you say scientists who can't seem to find our common monkey ancestor, and make huge mistakes and calculations in all fields are?


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    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Are there cases of interbreeding now that avoid health issues? If it can happen now, why would it not be able to happen to fulfill God's purpose on a grand scale? It was not like that was his eternal purpose, for there were laws to forbid such with the Jews.

    And you keep saying genetic disease. These people were living hundreds of years. Think the chance of disease was high if that was the case? How do you live 930 years diseased?
    You avoided the question I see. Your grasping at straws to make it seem the bible is perfect.

    There are no cases of interbreeding that avoid health issues.

    Again, health has nothing to do with it. It's simple genetics. They are called genetic diseases, but they are not diseases like malaria or the plague. They are retardation, death at childbirth and infertility due to a lack of available combinations of genetic material. Two healthy humans and two healthy animals can not sustain viable populations.

    So, not scientifically accurate as you claim. Adam and Eve and Noah's Arc are impossible. And you never addressed how Noah got 3 million individuals on a boat.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    Who said we will never visit or see it? God said the righteous will inherit the earth and reside forever upon it. Mankind can go to the moon now, using 10 percent of their brain. Imagine what we could do using 100?
    It will be impossible for us to see the majority of the universe. Einstein proved that it is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light. Traveling at the speed of light, it would take 100,000 years to just reach the end of the Milky Way galaxy. Many of the hundreds of billions of galaxies are hundreds of millions of light years away. Meaning, traveling at the speed of light, it would take hundreds of millions of years just to get to one of these galaxies. So, yes, a complete waste of space if you believe what you believe.


    Originally Posted by Knicks4lyfe
    And as far as God's efficiency goes.

    The God of the bible allowed 40 imperfect writers of different times and backgorunds to pen the most important documentation in human history, with impeccable bible prophecy that cannot be disproved no matter how hard one wants to try, and you say he is inefficient?

    But you say scientists who can't seem to find our common monkey ancestor, and make huge mistakes and calculations in all fields are?

    We've shown you several false prophecies, but you seem to ignore these. But that's moot. I've proven your bible to be imperfect with the above examples. I'm sure you'll ignore that as well. Your good at burying your head in the sand. Because, like you said you want to believe in God. Wanting to believe in something, and it being the truth are two different things.

    I never said scientists haven't found our common ancestor. In fact, I've said the opposite, and the overwhelming majority of the scientific population agrees. Only the quotes from your creationist's website and your lies have said that. I've asked for you to give me a link to any peer-reviewed scientific journal from an accredited scientist that disproves evolution. But you can't do that. You can only spread your lies.

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    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    You avoided the question I see. Your grasping at straws to make it seem the bible is perfect.

    There are no cases of interbreeding that avoid health issues.

    Again, health has nothing to do with it. It's simple genetics. They are called genetic diseases, but they are not diseases like malaria or the plague. They are retardation, death at childbirth and infertility due to a lack of available combinations of genetic material. Two healthy humans and two healthy animals can not sustain viable populations.

    So, not scientifically accurate as you claim. Adam and Eve and Noah's Arc are impossible. And you never addressed how Noah got 3 million individuals on a boat.
    I think that is a stretch to say there are NO cases. That would mean you'd have to have studied EVERY case, and Im sure this is not plausible.

    Well you say you believe Jesus existed, and Jesus refered to Adam and Eve and even Noah. So I am supposed to believe they did not exist, but Jesus did?

    And the bible does not say how many animals or species it was. So no one can accurately know. Only speculate.

    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    It will be impossible for us to see the majority of the universe. Einstein proved that it is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light. Traveling at the speed of light, it would take 100,000 years to just reach the end of the Milky Way galaxy. Many of the hundreds of billions of galaxies are hundreds of millions of light years away. Meaning, traveling at the speed of light, it would take hundreds of millions of years just to get to one of these galaxies. So, yes, a complete waste of space if you believe what you believe.
    Like I said, us, you and I yes. But who knows what science will be like when mankind can have full use of their brain capacity? If mankind using 10 percent of their brain can put man on the moon, how much moreadvanced will mankind become using an extra 90%?



    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    We've shown you several false prophecies, but you seem to ignore these. But that's moot. I've proven your bible to be imperfect with the above examples. I'm sure you'll ignore that as well. Your good at burying your head in the sand. Because, like you said you want to believe in God. Wanting to believe in something, and it being the truth are two different things.
    x
    You shown me prophecy from your perspective, which if you have been paying attention has been proven way to the left.

    You posted about Tyre, Adam living to be 930 and a few others. Laughed off the alexander prophecy as rams and goats, and never responded about 70 ce. You have your version, and I gave you the correct version, the bibles.

    You have an improper understanding of the bible, so of course from your standpoint you think you have it figured out. But you also thought hell was fiery, every good person goes to heaven.. You thought a lot. I don't blame all of that on you though.

    Bottom line is, What God says happens. Tyre is a place for fishing Nets now, Babylon is desolate and unihabited, the Good news of the Kingdom is being preached in your very time, just like Jesus said it would, and you say, you can prove the bible prophecy wrong


    Originally Posted by LJ4ptplay
    I never said scientists haven't found our common ancestor. In fact, I've said the opposite, and the overwhelming majority of the scientific population agrees. Only the quotes from your creationist's website and your lies have said that. I've asked for you to give me a link to any peer-reviewed scientific journal from an accredited scientist that disproves evolution. But you can't do that. You can only spread your lies.
    I know what you have said. You are the one burying your head in the sand here. Africanus is not our common ancestor, says Richard Leaky, Robert Jastrow, and New Scientist, the worlds supposed number 1 science and technology news service says the cousin to your africanus , Lucy they call it, has a skull like a chimpanzee. And this is our ancestor?

    Would you look at a chimpanzee and say hey cousin?

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